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database market share 2003

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040526/tech_...etshare_1.html

Interesting to see that database sales for windows is more than
Unix.
Nov 12 '05
346 16672
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message news:<ca******* ***@hanover.tor olab.ibm.com>.. .
Do you have any data to back up the claim that Siebel's premier
development platform and internal systems ran first DB2 mainframe?
Other than its deranged architectrure? no.
Fact is that when Oracle started competing with their apps vendors those
vendors try as best as they can to distance themselves from Oracle.
No. They try as best as tehy can to ALSO BE AVAILABLE on
Oracle's competitive products. Got the diff?

Let me see if I can use small enough words so that some
guys can understand:

the fact that a maker ports its product to another
database does NOT mean that the initial database
has stopped being used or supported by this
same maker. Got it, or is the concept too hard to grasp?
Siebel itself now runs it's Siebel on DB2 and IBM runs Siebel on DB2.
So what?
I don't know how far along Siebel is converting it's development
platform from Oracle to DB2.


Along nowhere. It's not CONVERTING, it's PORTING.
Crap, you people are thick sometimes...
Nov 12 '05 #271
"Data Goob" <da******@hotma il.com> wrote in message news:<Ze******* ***********@fe4 4.usenetserver. com>...
other database products are easy enough to use that they really don't
require much training, if any, of any kind, formal or informal. In fact,
Are they? Let me see: they don't need SQL, is it?
Ah yes: put me in front of a DB2 or sql server database and I'll
show you how difficult it is to manage or use.
training appears to be more of a necessity for Oracles' complex product
No it isn't. However, if you are an idiot developer who has
only so far used Access or some other sub-standard product
with pretentions to be a database, I suggest you take some serious
training instead of stuffing up systems for your clients.
Oracle is about making money more than anything,
And IBM and M$ aren't? BWAHAHAHAHA!
but that doesn't make them better
than the others--which I think is the point you and Mark want to make
on a regular basis.
No. The point they make is that there is NO product that
is better than others. As much as this may surprise
the MS and IBM heads.

SQL-Server installs in about 10 minutes, same for the others.
So does Oracle. And SQL Server does NOT install in 10 minutes,
that is a common marketing claim from M$ bullshit artists.
It took 45 minutes to install on my P4-2GHz IBM PC box at work.
Longer than Oracle 9ir2, if you must know. Or UDB 8.
not all RDBMS products function in an operational mode without the
need for anyone trained or untrained to maintain them--except maybe according
to you Oracle needs training, and what does that really say about the
product that it needs so much hand-holding?
Want me to show you some sites that converted to M$ crap
because "it needed no maintenance" and ended up off the air
for weeks on end after TWO (2) days of operation in the new
plastic-fantastic M$ crap?
is the only product worth considering. You also try to suggest that Oracle
is somehow more legitimate for having 'college classes' as if academic
standing is important.
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions. Ah, yes: and its interface
has stayed the same for the last 15 years and it runs the same
across all platforms. Can M$-crap claim the same?
An Oracle Fellow, that would be hilarious.


No more than a MCSE...
Nov 12 '05 #272
Take a few deep breaths of air, and try to calm down, you write like
you're hyper-ventalating.

"Noons" <wi*******@yaho o.com.au> wrote in message news:73******** *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com...
"Data Goob" <da******@hotma il.com> wrote in message news:<Ze******* ***********@fe4 4.usenetserver. com>...
other database products are easy enough to use that they really don't
require much training, if any, of any kind, formal or informal. In fact,
Are they? Let me see: they don't need SQL, is it?
Ah yes: put me in front of a DB2 or sql server database and I'll
show you how difficult it is to manage or use.


Sorry if I insult you right off the bat, but geez, your statement
is so blatantly wrong. I'm not sure what database products you've
actually had experience with, but it appears you haven't even used
anything but one.

training appears to be more of a necessity for Oracles' complex product


No it isn't. However, if you are an idiot developer who has
only so far used Access or some other sub-standard product
with pretentions to be a database, I suggest you take some serious
training instead of stuffing up systems for your clients.


"Idiot developer" ? Geez you must be in a really bad
situation to demean people so much.

Actually, the necessity for training is a lot like the need
for a help desk for your software. If the software is built
correctly, the user-interface and online help should deter the
need for a lot of 'training' or help-desk support. If your
help desk is inundated with a lot of calls, what does that
say about your software? If you need a lot of training, what
does that say about the design of the interface?

To the credit of Microsoft, they have a pretty darn good database
for the mid-range market, especially for SMB's that can't afford
a DBA. SQL-Server is very robust, takes a lot of abuse, and is
pretty good with a lot of different applications. It can literally
run for years without much attendance by anyone knowing what they
are doing with it--this comes from my own personal use of the
product in our environment and we have done a lot with it. It's
not my favorite, but certainly it's not difficult to use or abuse,
and has rarely if ever failed us. Failures were always user
problems.

Oracle is about making money more than anything,


And IBM and M$ aren't? BWAHAHAHAHA!


Well, we've found that the more of a megalomaniac running the
company, the less the quality of the product. Oracle's culture
is of particular note in that the whole company culture centers
around sales, not product quality. Oracle is living off of a
database that hasn't been re-engineered in what, 10 years?
SQL-Server hasn't been upgraded in at least 5 years, but it is
a better product for a lot of reasons--especially good that it
is at least a lot more like other products. Oracle is vastly
different from the rest. SQL-Server also is making inroads
from the SMB up, and is not trivial in terms of how serious
businesses take it.

but that doesn't make them better
than the others--which I think is the point you and Mark want to make
on a regular basis.


No. The point they make is that there is NO product that
is better than others. As much as this may surprise
the MS and IBM heads.


Well, it appears to me that you have not used anything but one
product ( and I'm not sure which one that is ) .


SQL-Server installs in about 10 minutes, same for the others.


So does Oracle. And SQL Server does NOT install in 10 minutes,
that is a common marketing claim from M$ bullshit artists.


Uh, well, I just installed it last week on one of our systems,
10 minutes tops. Of course on a slower system it might take a
little longer, but geez, a child could install SQL-Server, it's
not that difficult.
It took 45 minutes to install on my P4-2GHz IBM PC box at work.
Longer than Oracle 9ir2, if you must know. Or UDB 8.

Oracle 9i was a pretty immature product the last time I screwed
around with it, I had to create a lot of scripts to manage it,
and its software footprint was over 5 GB of god only knows
what. It was also in a non-windows environment, so YMMV. The
licensing costs were also prohibitive as well.
not all RDBMS products function in an operational mode without the
need for anyone trained or untrained to maintain them--except maybe according
to you Oracle needs training, and what does that really say about the
product that it needs so much hand-holding?


Want me to show you some sites that converted to M$ crap
because "it needed no maintenance" and ended up off the air
for weeks on end after TWO (2) days of operation in the new
plastic-fantastic M$ crap?


Heh-heh. Intelligence could be a factor.
is the only product worth considering. You also try to suggest that Oracle
is somehow more legitimate for having 'college classes' as if academic
standing is important.


Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions. Ah, yes: and its interface
has stayed the same for the last 15 years and it runs the same
across all platforms. Can M$-crap claim the same?


Wow, well, you can't argue with that. It's interesting that you
would want to compare Oracle, quoting "its interface has stayed the
same for the last 15 years", with other products that have advanced
their engines, tools, and interfaces several times over in the same
time period. Interesting.

An Oracle Fellow, that would be hilarious.


No more than a MCSE...


Can't argue with that.


Nov 12 '05 #273
Noons wrote:
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message news:<ca******* ***@hanover.tor olab.ibm.com>.. .

Do you have any data to back up the claim that Siebel's premier
development platform and internal systems ran first DB2 mainframe?

Other than its deranged architectrure? no.

Thought so.
Fact is that when Oracle started competing with their apps vendors those
vendors try as best as they can to distance themselves from Oracle.

No. They try as best as tehy can to ALSO BE AVAILABLE on
Oracle's competitive products. Got the diff?

These two sentences do not conflict with each other. When an App is sold
into a new account (one that doesn't have a natural bias due to an
existing DBMS install - and hence skills) the app vendor has great
influence which DBMS will be sold.
If an App vendor competes with the DBMS vendor for the App space then
every sold DBMS of that vendor funds teh competitive product line.
So it's in the App vendors best interest to _lead_ with another DBMS.
Of course the App vendor will rather sell with any DBMS than not at all
even if the vendor is competition.
That's the mechanics of the market.
Let me see if I can use small enough words so that some
guys can understand:

the fact that a maker ports its product to another
database does NOT mean that the initial database
has stopped being used or supported by this
same maker. Got it, or is the concept too hard to grasp?

I don't think that claim was made anywher in this thread. Certainly not
by me.
I don't know how far along Siebel is converting it's development
platform from Oracle to DB2.


Along nowhere. It's not CONVERTING, it's PORTING.
Crap, you people are thick sometimes...

Let's switch examples:
Oracle claims to have (or being in progress of) CONVERTED their
development platform (from Sun ?) to Linux.
DB2 for LUW main development platform is AIX (it probably was CONVERTED
from OS/2 a long time ago).
Neither statement says anything about with OS are supported.

The main development platform is the one that is first tested and hence
usualy first certified because the developers touch it every day. It is
also the one which developers tune against by default because developers
learn it's intricate details.
All other platforms usually end up getting either workarounds or
additional deep integration.

It is really important to not just pick out a single buzz word, rip it
out of context and go ballistic on a different potential meaning.

Cheers
Serge

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #274
Noons wrote:
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions.

"Relational db 12 rules"? Care to elaborate?
At the risk of looking stupid: I draw a blank here.
I only know of normal forms, relational algebra and SQL :-(

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #275
> Noons wrote:
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions.

"Relational db 12 rules"? Care to elaborate?
At the risk of looking stupid: I draw a blank here.
I only know of normal forms, relational algebra and SQL :-(

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab


The 12 rules are from the famous Computerworld article in the mid 1980's by
Ted Codd when he evaluated DBMS's to see if they were really relational.

I believe that Ingess scored the best (but I don't think they got all 12),
DB2 was respectable, Oracle got fewer points than DB2 (and they would
probably get even fewer points from Codd today since Oracle seems to have
moved away from relational in many respects).

IDMS-R got 0 out of 12, and was exposed at the fraud it was (a network
database with a limited SQL front end that only worked in certain
circumstances).
Nov 12 '05 #276
Serge Rielau wrote:
Noons wrote:
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions.


"Relational db 12 rules"? Care to elaborate?
At the risk of looking stupid: I draw a blank here.
I only know of normal forms, relational algebra and SQL :-(


I believe the reference is to Codds 12 Rules -
http://www.mit.edu/people/tjw/Codds%20Rules.htm

Nov 12 '05 #277
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:ca******** **@hanover.toro lab.ibm.com...
Noons wrote:
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions.

"Relational db 12 rules"? Care to elaborate?
At the risk of looking stupid: I draw a blank here.
I only know of normal forms, relational algebra and SQL :-(


Stuipid? No, but one can always know more.

Here is Chris Date's take on "different relational models" where the 12
rules are mentioned in passing.

http://www.dbdebunk.com/page/page/622839.htm
More interestingly than those 12 rules however, would be too see which
current DBMS most closely resembles say Data & Darwen's proposals for a
clean relational database system.

Regards
Paul Vernon
Business Intelligence, IBM Global Services
Nov 12 '05 #278
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> writes:
Noons wrote:
Given that it is the ONLY commercial RDBMS out there that follows
most of the relational db 12 rules, it probably deserves to be better
represented in education institutions.

"Relational db 12 rules"? Care to elaborate?
At the risk of looking stupid: I draw a blank here.
I only know of normal forms, relational algebra and SQL :-(


I guess he is talking about Codd's 12 rules,
http://www.frick-cpa.com/ss7/Theory_RelationalDB.asp

Dr. Codd was of course an IBM fellow, and the inventor of the relational
model. Based on his relational model, IBM research came up with 'System
R' a relational database research project. IBM's SQL/DS and DB2, Oracle,
were some of the first few commercial rdbms drawing heavily from the
System R research project.

http://www.research.ibm.com/resource...passaway.shtml

Regards,
--
Haider
Nov 12 '05 #279
>
Oracle got fewer points than DB2 (and they would
probably get even fewer points from Codd today since Oracle seems to have
moved away from relational in many respects).


I've seen you make this point before
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ews.uswest.net

I challenged you at the time, and can't remember if you ever came back
with an example - so exactly what is it in Oracle that you think has
moved away from the relational model ?

Nov 12 '05 #280

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