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yipeee!


Just recieved a 'thought experiment' assignment from my boss.
Does it make sense, and how would it be accomplised, to move
the databases from the mainframe (small VSE 390?) to AIX?
I mentioned that we should then look at possible programs from
IBM to convert the mainframe database (VSAM?) files into DB2/AIX,
or Oracle databases. And that I thought Oracle had some facility
such that we could cluster and load-balance two+ nodes running
something like Parallel Oracle so that should a node need booting
or modifying off-line the application is still running (at
reduced capacity) for the users.

Thoughts?

Mike
Nov 12 '05
95 5384
"Sybrand Bakker" <go********@syb randb.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:30******** *************** *********@4ax.c om...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:24:51 -0700, "Mark A" <ma@switchboard .net>
wrote:

You may not think that a true parallel query environment (what you call
share nothing) is important, but if you look at the client list of Teradataand IBM who have implemented that technology, it would be obvious that youare wrong.


Apparently you are unaware of Oracle Parallel Execution feature.
It is recommended you do your homework prior to starting a flame to
promote a competitor product.
--
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA


I was responding to someone who said that share nothing is not important and
that share everything scales just as well.

I don't know what you mean by "competitor product," since I am not
associated with Oracle or IBM other than having used both products. But, I
don't really understand why Oracle trolls come on this forum to denigrate
Oracle competitors. Well, maybe I do understand.
Nov 12 '05 #81
Mark A wrote:
I was responding to someone who said that share nothing is not important and
that share everything scales just as well.


I didn't say as well ... I said better. As you scale shared nothing the
time between failures decreases ... you are more likely to have a
failure and thus zero performance. With shared everything the time
between failures increases ... you are less likely to have a failure
that brings down the system.

That some people don't seem to concern themselves with 7x24x365 uptime
may explain why their product isn't used by most major web sites. Alfred
E. Neuman said "What me worry" and apparently that mantra has now
changed to "Well it was running really really fast when it was up."

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #82
> > I was responding to someone who said that share nothing is not important
and
that share everything scales just as well.


I didn't say as well ... I said better. As you scale shared nothing the
time between failures decreases ... you are more likely to have a
failure and thus zero performance. With shared everything the time
between failures increases ... you are less likely to have a failure
that brings down the system.

That some people don't seem to concern themselves with 7x24x365 uptime
may explain why their product isn't used by most major web sites. Alfred
E. Neuman said "What me worry" and apparently that mantra has now
changed to "Well it was running really really fast when it was up."

--
Daniel Morgan


No one that I know suggested that share nothing be used for 7x24x365 uptime.
In fact most decision support systems need downtime to refresh their
historical data from operational systems.

You seem to ignore the fact that many companies have decision support
systems that don't require 7x24x365 uptime, that need share nothing to be
efficient, and that prefer Teradata or DB2 because of that.
Nov 12 '05 #83
Mark A wrote:
I don't know what you mean by "competitor product," since I am not
associated with Oracle or IBM other than having used both products. But, I
don't really understand why Oracle trolls come on this forum to denigrate
Oracle competitors. Well, maybe I do understand.


No one came to the DB2 forum to denigrate an Oracle competitor. Get over
the insecurity. The OP asked a question about Oracle and DB2 and posted
it to both forums. A response in one forum was a response in both.

I find it fascinating that in the Oracle forum ... Oracle developers and
DBAs routinely criticize Oracle. They are honest, open, forthright, and
willing to call bad support bad support, bad policies bad policies, and
bad product implementations exactly what they are.

Apparently in the DB2 forum some are driven by insecurity, perhaps
a fear of men in blue suits, because they react to every statement that
doesn't heap praise upon DB2 as some kind of terrorist attack on God
and Country.

Get over it! It is just software.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #84

"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1076171235 .839763@yasure. ..
Mark A wrote:
I don't know what you mean by "competitor product," since I am not
associated with Oracle or IBM other than having used both products. But, I don't really understand why Oracle trolls come on this forum to denigrate Oracle competitors. Well, maybe I do understand.


No one came to the DB2 forum to denigrate an Oracle competitor. Get over
the insecurity. The OP asked a question about Oracle and DB2 and posted
it to both forums. A response in one forum was a response in both.

I find it fascinating that in the Oracle forum ... Oracle developers and
DBAs routinely criticize Oracle. They are honest, open, forthright, and
willing to call bad support bad support, bad policies bad policies, and
bad product implementations exactly what they are.

Apparently in the DB2 forum some are driven by insecurity, perhaps
a fear of men in blue suits, because they react to every statement that
doesn't heap praise upon DB2 as some kind of terrorist attack on God
and Country.

Get over it! It is just software.

--
Daniel Morgan


Daniel, I have criticized IBM about problems with DB2 many times in this
forum, especially when I think it is something that can be easily fixed.
Most recently that included poor support of the Linux environment,
especially with regard to the bash shell.

But you come here as a troll, and never as someone trying help others with
DB2 problems (other than suggesting that they switch to Oracle). Your lack
of knowledge about relational technology is appalling for someone who
teaches the subject. For example, you recently claimed that RAC was share
nothing, and then had to retract that statement. I don't believe for one
second the excuse you gave for not knowing the facts.

The truth is that you are a troll on this forum, never passing up a chance
to push Oracle as the solution to every problem. Personally, I don't care
about that, since I don't work for IBM, but I find it very distracting for
those of us trying to help others with their DB2 problems.
Nov 12 '05 #85
jo********@home .com (Joel Garry) wrote in message news:<91******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com>...
I don't see this. Even if a company has a strategic initiative to go
to a particular database, mergers, aquisitions, and specific
application requirements still mean heterogeneity. There may be some
pure MS companies around, but I wouldn't know about them (and I don't
think MS is one of them, and of course IBM may well be its own world).

The skillset problem is challenging, but a red herring since it is
probably not a good idea as a strategic plan, except maybe in certain
small companies. Even governments that specified Oracle figured that
out. Enterprise software salespeople sell gateways, if they have to.


You misread my email: I didn't and don't advocate blind and complete
adherance to a strategic direction for vendor products. I did,
however, recommend putting a lot of priority on compliance with that
strategic direction.

Sure, you can build appliations that are a mix of vb, clipper, .net,
jdbc, and mainframe COBOL. But just because those technologies might
exist in the organization is no reason to avoid attempting some
consistency.

Same issue with databases - you can support Informix, Sybase, SQL
Server, Oracle, DB2, Postgresql, MySQL, Firebird, and Access if you
want. But you'll pay more for licenses, you'll have more human-error
failures due to insufficient skillsets.

Gateways aren't an answer either - just another set of product version
constraints, and incompatibiliti es. Want to be successful with this
kind of middleware - make sure you've got experts on all databases
*AND* the gateway. Nothing like finding that you've got to upgrade a
database to support an essential new application version, but that
your gateway doesn't yet support that version.

I'd firmly recommend trying to stick to an absolute minimum number of
database and application technologies. These days, the pressure seems
to be on one open source and one commercial product in most
departments that I work with. My recommendation is often something
like:
* mysql only if you have to (if required by application you want)
* postgresql for low-end databases
* db2/sybase/oracle/informix/sql server depending on:
* application requirements
* os preferences (unix vs windows)
* cost

The fact that one database has feature a and another database doesn't
(this year), is only very seldom the best reason for selecting a
database. Decide databases exclusively on that kind of criteria and
you'll create a disaster.
Nov 12 '05 #86


Daniel Morgan wrote:
Joe Weinstein wrote:
Yep. Also, I really don't want to sound like I'm picking only on Oracle,
because I complain about other DBMSes too. Oracle's TAF fooled a number
of customers into believing it really was Transparent Application
Failover,
but it seems to be so only for certain mostly-idle clients. The reason I
say this is because while there is no data loss during a failover, nor
even any transactional context (locks), what is lost is any
*computational*
context that the client may be relying on if it was actually doing
something when the failover occurred. For instance, most cursor context
is lost. Java clients that may have created and are re-using Prepared
Statements will find that all those prepared statements are now defunct,
and must be recreated before the client can even retry what they were
doing.
This generally means returning to the line of code right after
obtaining the
original connection. Having the connection automatically failover to an
appropriate backup DBMS is certainly valuable, but calling it "TAF" was
'aiming high' in the marketing department, IMHO.
Joe

From the client's standpoint it is completely transparent which is the
origin of the name.

Perhaps you need to come take the class I teach on RAC.


Thanks! I could use your help! I'm operating (in this topic context) as middleware
which pools JDBC connections, each of which cache prepared statements. Customer code
uses these connections, and involves them in multi-statement, multi-resource transactions.
If there is a "TAF", is there a way *I* can shield the client code from the effects
on the prepared statements they may be in the process of using?
Appreciatively,
Joe Weinstein at BEA

Nov 12 '05 #87
Oh dear! The victim...

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
"Mark A" <ma@switchboard .net> wrote in message
news:h4******** ********@news.u swest.net...
I don't know what you mean by "competitor product," since I am not
associated with Oracle or IBM other than having used both products. But, I
don't really understand why Oracle trolls come on this forum to denigrate
Oracle competitors. Well, maybe I do understand.


Nov 12 '05 #88


cough "10G Beta Program" cough !
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1076171235 .839763@yasure. ..
Mark A wrote:
I don't know what you mean by "competitor product," since I am not
associated with Oracle or IBM other than having used both products. But, I don't really understand why Oracle trolls come on this forum to denigrate Oracle competitors. Well, maybe I do understand.


No one came to the DB2 forum to denigrate an Oracle competitor. Get over
the insecurity. The OP asked a question about Oracle and DB2 and posted
it to both forums. A response in one forum was a response in both.

I find it fascinating that in the Oracle forum ... Oracle developers and
DBAs routinely criticize Oracle. They are honest, open, forthright, and
willing to call bad support bad support, bad policies bad policies, and
bad product implementations exactly what they are.

Apparently in the DB2 forum some are driven by insecurity, perhaps
a fear of men in blue suits, because they react to every statement that
doesn't heap praise upon DB2 as some kind of terrorist attack on God
and Country.

Get over it! It is just software.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #89
Joe Weinstein wrote:


Daniel Morgan wrote:
Joe Weinstein wrote:
Yep. Also, I really don't want to sound like I'm picking only on Oracle,
because I complain about other DBMSes too. Oracle's TAF fooled a number
of customers into believing it really was Transparent Application
Failover,
but it seems to be so only for certain mostly-idle clients. The reason I
say this is because while there is no data loss during a failover, nor
even any transactional context (locks), what is lost is any
*computational*
context that the client may be relying on if it was actually doing
something when the failover occurred. For instance, most cursor context
is lost. Java clients that may have created and are re-using Prepared
Statements will find that all those prepared statements are now defunct,
and must be recreated before the client can even retry what they were
doing.
This generally means returning to the line of code right after
obtaining the
original connection. Having the connection automatically failover to an
appropriate backup DBMS is certainly valuable, but calling it "TAF" was
'aiming high' in the marketing department, IMHO.
Joe


From the client's standpoint it is completely transparent which is
the origin of the name.

Perhaps you need to come take the class I teach on RAC.

Thanks! I could use your help! I'm operating (in this topic context) as
middleware
which pools JDBC connections, each of which cache prepared statements.
Customer code
uses these connections, and involves them in multi-statement,
multi-resource transactions.
If there is a "TAF", is there a way *I* can shield the client code from
the effects
on the prepared statements they may be in the process of using?
Appreciatively,
Joe Weinstein at BEA


Feel free to contact me off-line.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #90

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