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yipeee!


Just recieved a 'thought experiment' assignment from my boss.
Does it make sense, and how would it be accomplised, to move
the databases from the mainframe (small VSE 390?) to AIX?
I mentioned that we should then look at possible programs from
IBM to convert the mainframe database (VSAM?) files into DB2/AIX,
or Oracle databases. And that I thought Oracle had some facility
such that we could cluster and load-balance two+ nodes running
something like Parallel Oracle so that should a node need booting
or modifying off-line the application is still running (at
reduced capacity) for the users.

Thoughts?

Mike
Nov 12 '05
95 5382
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:bv******** *@hanover.torol ab.ibm.com...
Mike,

I get the feeling this is not a high concurrency and high throughput
environment? So, no matter what DBMS you end up with, I'd be hesitant to
let myself being talked into any high-end, pay extra, features....

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab


I agree - there is what might be an interesting development for Mike with
regards to 10g, namely that standard edition Oracle will come with RAC
essentially for free. This would mean that they could buy a (relatively)
cheap edition of Oracle with the possibility of doing the 2 node failover
later. I'd agree with Daniel that 2 2cpu Intel boxes might make more sense
for this than a risc box.

I'd also suggest that you take a look at what expertise you have in house
and try and match that.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Nov 12 '05 #31
Well, AFAIK amazon.com is running Teradata in their warehouse.
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #32
You would a slightly different configuration, that is correct.
An extra node for standby. If you take a look at the disclosured you
will find that an extra node will not disturb the total cost by much.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #33
In article <bv*********@ha nover.torolab.i bm.com>, Serge Rielau wrote:
Mike,

I get the feeling this is not a high concurrency and high throughput
environment? So, no matter what DBMS you end up with, I'd be hesitant to
let myself being talked into any high-end, pay extra, features....

Cheers
Serge


It's not that it is a high-throughput, but rather that the company
has been built around the application that has grown for 25 years
and now the company is operating on three continents. The app
cannot be down.

Mike
Nov 12 '05 #34
In article <bv*********@ha nover.torolab.i bm.com>, Serge Rielau wrote:
Actually if we go back that far I don't think the topic was shared
nothing vs shared disk to begin with.. but for the sake of peace:

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Serge Rielau wrote:
The topic was that you alleged DB2 cannot recover from a failing node.

Not as I recall. The topic was someone considering DB2 or Oracle. And
considering shared nothing vs shared everything. The architectures are
different and lead to different outcomes.

Can you fail-over with shared nothing if you lose one or more nodes?

Yes! And I'm not going to repeat myself. Read the thread.

Can you add or remove nodes without some code rewrite with shared
nothing (small but some)?

Given that this is a brand new app: Yes, written for shared nothing.
You start with 2 nodes you scale to 999
Can you add or remove nodes without repartitioning the data with shared
nothing?

Yes, to offload the system burden. Repartitioning would be advised a
some point to retune the system the extra node stays put.
Can you add or remove nodes without a shutdown with shared nothing?

I honestly don't know the answer to that one. Never tried it.

Now let's close this of, and get back to OP's questions:

OP states he needs HA. OP so far shows no indication that clustering for
sclability is needed. OP is putting up the requirements not the group :-)

I would propose two boxes. Clusterware, DB2 licensed for the CPU's on
the one box and 1 CPU for the other (it's in standby).
I would NOT, repeat: NOT recommend DPF because there is NO indication
that it's needed.

Now that will come out at price X

Now one can compare that with whatever the Oracle crowd would propose
which will be price Y.

That plus whatever other input OP has (skillset, TCO (let's not even get
into that one), company strategy (special discounts?), ...) will yield
the database to choose from.

Cheers
Serge


Currently I have one s390 with a home-grown app and the data in vsam.
What is required (either db2 or oracle) such that the app and data
can be moved from the s390 to rs/6000 with greater availability, as
fast of retrieval, etc?

Mike
Nov 12 '05 #35
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:bv******** **@hanover.toro lab.ibm.com...
Well, AFAIK amazon.com is running Teradata in their warehouse.
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab


Serge, Daniel does not understand the difference between a data warehouse
application (which benefits from share nothing, or quasi-share nothing) and
an OLTP application (which benefits from share everything with fallover
capability). It's really scary that he is getting paid to teach people about
database.
Nov 12 '05 #36
OK, so you need HA. What else?
Any specific SQL Features?
What's your companies strategie for App development? Java, .Net, both?
Any OS/Hardware preference?
What's you companies DB skillset in house?

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #37
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:bv******** **@hanover.toro lab.ibm.com...
OK, so you need HA. What else?
Any specific SQL Features?
What's your companies strategie for App development? Java, .Net, both?
Any OS/Hardware preference?
What's you companies DB skillset in house?

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab


I think they want to move to CICS on RS/6000 to save money on hardware
costs. I would bet money they don't have the time or bucks to re-write the
application in a totally different technology (Java, Net, etc).
Nov 12 '05 #38
"Mark A" <ma@switchboard .net> wrote in message
news:hl******** *******@news.us west.net...
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:bv******** **@hanover.toro lab.ibm.com...
Well, AFAIK amazon.com is running Teradata in their warehouse.
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Serge, Daniel does not understand the difference between a data warehouse
application (which benefits from share nothing, or quasi-share nothing)

and an OLTP application (which benefits from share everything with fallover
capability). It's really scary that he is getting paid to teach people about database.


So now that we have established that the app is transactional and requires
HA, and setting aside the personal remarks which way would you jump?
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Nov 12 '05 #39
> > Serge, Daniel does not understand the difference between a data
warehouse
application (which benefits from share nothing, or quasi-share nothing)

and
an OLTP application (which benefits from share everything with fallover
capability). It's really scary that he is getting paid to teach people

about
database.


So now that we have established that the app is transactional and requires
HA, and setting aside the personal remarks which way would you jump?
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK

As I mentioned on another post, I doubt they want to pay for a complete
rewrite of the mainframe application. I think they want to port to CICS on
RS6000 to save money, and that means they probably can't afford a completely
new custom application. They might be able to use a VSAM emulator on
CICS/RS6000 or convert the application to DB2 running under CICS on RS6000.
I don't know if Oracle works with CICS on RS/6000.

I would probably stay on the mainframe until they find a packaged
application that runs on a distributed platform. This may require that the
company change parts of their business process to fit the package, but that
is what I would do. If they don't want a new application, I would stay on
the mainframe.

The odds of a medium scale application development project ever being
completed with code in production is less than 50%. Of the remaining 50%
that make it into production, the vast majority of those projects will be
over way budget and/or seriously late to completion.

In a situation like this, picking the DBMS product is not the first decision
to be made.
Nov 12 '05 #40

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