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yipeee!


Just recieved a 'thought experiment' assignment from my boss.
Does it make sense, and how would it be accomplised, to move
the databases from the mainframe (small VSE 390?) to AIX?
I mentioned that we should then look at possible programs from
IBM to convert the mainframe database (VSAM?) files into DB2/AIX,
or Oracle databases. And that I thought Oracle had some facility
such that we could cluster and load-balance two+ nodes running
something like Parallel Oracle so that should a node need booting
or modifying off-line the application is still running (at
reduced capacity) for the users.

Thoughts?

Mike
Nov 12 '05
95 5390
Mike,

I get the feeling this is not a high concurrency and high throughput
environment? So, no matter what DBMS you end up with, I'd be hesitant to
let myself being talked into any high-end, pay extra, features....

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #21
The topic was that you alleged DB2 cannot recover from a failing node.
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #22
Serge Rielau wrote:
The topic was that you alleged DB2 cannot recover from a failing node.


Not as I recall. The topic was someone considering DB2 or Oracle. And
considering shared nothing vs shared everything. The architectures are
different and lead to different outcomes.

Can you fail-over with shared nothing if you lose one or more nodes?

Can you add or remove nodes without some code rewrite with shared
nothing (small but some)?

Can you add or remove nodes without repartitioning the data with shared
nothing?

Can you add or remove nodes without a shutdown with shared nothing?

I'll gladly correct any misunderstandin gs on my part.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #23
Actually if we go back that far I don't think the topic was shared
nothing vs shared disk to begin with.. but for the sake of peace:

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Serge Rielau wrote:
The topic was that you alleged DB2 cannot recover from a failing node.

Not as I recall. The topic was someone considering DB2 or Oracle. And
considering shared nothing vs shared everything. The architectures are
different and lead to different outcomes.

Can you fail-over with shared nothing if you lose one or more nodes?

Yes! And I'm not going to repeat myself. Read the thread.
Can you add or remove nodes without some code rewrite with shared
nothing (small but some)? Given that this is a brand new app: Yes, written for shared nothing.
You start with 2 nodes you scale to 999 Can you add or remove nodes without repartitioning the data with shared
nothing? Yes, to offload the system burden. Repartitioning would be advised a
some point to retune the system the extra node stays put.
Can you add or remove nodes without a shutdown with shared nothing?

I honestly don't know the answer to that one. Never tried it.

Now let's close this of, and get back to OP's questions:

OP states he needs HA. OP so far shows no indication that clustering for
sclability is needed. OP is putting up the requirements not the group :-)

I would propose two boxes. Clusterware, DB2 licensed for the CPU's on
the one box and 1 CPU for the other (it's in standby).
I would NOT, repeat: NOT recommend DPF because there is NO indication
that it's needed.

Now that will come out at price X

Now one can compare that with whatever the Oracle crowd would propose
which will be price Y.

That plus whatever other input OP has (skillset, TCO (let's not even get
into that one), company strategy (special discounts?), ...) will yield
the database to choose from.

Cheers
Serge

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #24
"Mark A" <ma@switchboard .net> wrote in message news:<N%******* *********@news. uswest.net>...
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wroteL

I disagree. RAC is intended to solve two entirely different problems.
One is fail-over the other is scaling.


Daniel,

Since RAC is intended to "scale out", can you can answer a question
that has been puzzling me?

Of its 11 best TPC-H results, all on 9i or 10g, why has Oracle chosen
to run only one benchmark under RAC? How come that single (Oracle 10g,
1000GB category) RAC result is easily the worst of all 11 Oracle
results?

Why is it that the 10g RAC result is less than half the performance,
and over twice the cost, of the *worst* DB2 result - shared nothing of
course - in the same 1000GB category?

Let me guess - because benchmarks prove nothing, even when they show a
clear pattern.
DG
Nov 12 '05 #25
dba
And where is the long lists of reference customers that are scaling RAC
to many TBs, and beyond 8 or 16 nodes?

DBA

Database Guy wrote:
"Mark A" <ma@switchboard .net> wrote in message news:<N%******* *********@news. uswest.net>...
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wroteL

I disagree. RAC is intended to solve two entirely different problems.
One is fail-over the other is scaling.

Daniel,

Since RAC is intended to "scale out", can you can answer a question
that has been puzzling me?

Of its 11 best TPC-H results, all on 9i or 10g, why has Oracle chosen
to run only one benchmark under RAC? How come that single (Oracle 10g,
1000GB category) RAC result is easily the worst of all 11 Oracle
results?

Why is it that the 10g RAC result is less than half the performance,
and over twice the cost, of the *worst* DB2 result - shared nothing of
course - in the same 1000GB category?

Let me guess - because benchmarks prove nothing, even when they show a
clear pattern.
DG


Nov 12 '05 #26
dba wrote:
And where is the long lists of reference customers that are scaling RAC
to many TBs, and beyond 8 or 16 nodes?

DBA


Long list? No. Confidentiality agreements and such. Perhaps your
salesperson can do that.

But one name I can provide? Amazon.com.

But do keep in mind they aren't just doing TB databases.
They are doing TB's of transactions each and every day.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #27
Database Guy wrote:
Since RAC is intended to "scale out", can you can answer a question
that has been puzzling me?

Of its 11 best TPC-H results, all on 9i or 10g, why has Oracle chosen
to run only one benchmark under RAC? How come that single (Oracle 10g,
1000GB category) RAC result is easily the worst of all 11 Oracle
results?


As has been frequently stated in the DB2 usenet group and elsewhere ...
the TPC benchmarks favor shared-nothing. Pull the plug on one of those
shared nothing nodes (hardware failures do happen in the real world) and
see what happens to performance.

My point being that if I made one change to the benchmark ... say added
the following ... "one hour into the test pull the plug on one node and
complete the job" ... shared nothing and federated databases wouldn't
even be able to compete.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #28
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<107594886 8.103447@yasure >...
Database Guy wrote:
Since RAC is intended to "scale out", can you can answer a question
that has been puzzling me?

Of its 11 best TPC-H results, all on 9i or 10g, why has Oracle chosen
to run only one benchmark under RAC? How come that single (Oracle 10g,
1000GB category) RAC result is easily the worst of all 11 Oracle
results?


As has been frequently stated in the DB2 usenet group and elsewhere ...
the TPC benchmarks favor shared-nothing. Pull the plug on one of those
shared nothing nodes (hardware failures do happen in the real world) and
see what happens to performance.

My point being that if I made one change to the benchmark ... say added
the following ... "one hour into the test pull the plug on one node and
complete the job" ... shared nothing and federated databases wouldn't
even be able to compete.


That's true, but for me real performance measurement should be done
while everything is working. According to my experiences If you have
proper enteprise environment outages are almost NULL and during short
period, when you are dealing with some problem, lower performance is
usually acceptable by business users.
On the other hand I apriori distrust *any* benchmarks, because for me
they're just marketing (read lies).

--
Dusan Bolek
Nov 12 '05 #29
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message news:<bv******* ***@hanover.tor olab.ibm.com>.. .
Daniel,

You are messing up the timeline here. DB2 z/Series is older than DB2 for
Multiplatforms. Why did those same (yes they were the same!) engineers
choose shared nothing after having done DB2 z/Series with the parallel
sysplex? Maybe it was an oversight? What were they thinking? "Oops"?


Nice to see you back. I really missed all that Oracle vs. DB2 flames
that were so popular in this NG few years ago. :-)

--
Dusan Bolek
Nov 12 '05 #30

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