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Peoplesoft on Federated UDB?

Anyone using Peoplesoft on a Federated UDB
(shared nothing)Environ ment on Open System Platforms?
Preferably AIX, but any war stories would be good.

TEA
EB-C
Nov 12 '05
96 6261

"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1075099486 .168786@yasure. ..
Mark A wrote:
For example, Oracle requires more DBA
support than DB2, an important consideration when choosing.


"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40******** ******@comcast. net...
Prove it. And don't quote me a lot of fly by night supposed analysts
whose main income seems to come from talking at DB2 user conferences.


I don't think there is any way to "prove" it. My comments where based on my personal experience, not what anyone else has told me.

I once hired an Oracle Consultant (form Oracle Corporation) to do a simple single node basic install (no remote clients of any kind) and it took 2 days (at $1400 per day). On another occasion, it took some other DBA's I hired a week to get Oracle installed. About 5 years ago, I tried to install Oracle on Windows and gave up after a few weeks (working part time on the install).
DB2 can normally be installed in an hour or two by a chimpanzee.

I will have to admit, that Oracle is a much more complex and feature rich product, but I also think that cost of ownership is very high, especially when it comes to personnel.


Sorry Mark but academic freedom demands that I be honest here.

Anyone that took two days to install a single node shouldn't have made
it through the interview process unless your hardware and operating
systems were junk.

Interview process? I hired a consultant from Oracle Corporation and paid top
dollar because I wanted a qualified and experienced person and I needed it
done quickly. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software on that
system. I gave the Oracle consultant full time use of my UNIX system
administrator during the 2 days.
Nov 12 '05 #41
I just want to know how
Oracle Consulting can charge $1400 per day to do a very simple Oracle
install
I really don't know. Did they doc the environment ? Was there OS patches
that needed to be applied ? Did they set up best practices for backup
and recovery etc. Any of those could take a day or two. If you want to
give me a PO I'll look it up from this end.
and why does it take 2 full days.


The install doesn't. Even on my iBook where I am writing this, a full
install with manual creation of the database takes less than 1 hour. On
my Windows laptop with the seed database, around 20-30 minutes.

Nov 12 '05 #42
Mark A wrote:
DB2 can normally be installed in an hour or two by a chimpanzee.


I guess we don't get a lot of chimpanzee's installing the software, but
it's not difficult at all and can indeed be done by a reasonably clever
9 year old - see the first in the thread at http://tinyurl.com/32gs7

So tell me, how does Global Services actually get the chimps to wear the
suits ?


I am self employed, so I can't answer that one. I just want to know how
Oracle Consulting can charge $1400 per day to do a very simple Oracle
install and why does it take 2 full days.


Far be it from me to defend Oracle Consulting as I have come in after
them a few times myself: Enough said. But without a thorough knowledge
of what that person found when they walked in the door it is hard to say.

The first time I did a contract at Boeing I spent the first three weeks
waiting for them to get me a desk and a computer ... at my full
consulting rate. I may be ethical but I'm not a fool. I'd have to hear
the consultants description of the job as perhaps your lack of knowledge
about Oracle caused a simple job to be a trail of patience getting
simple things like network access and passwords.

But as I said far be it from me to defend Oracle Consulting. All
consulting companies have marginal employees: All of them. Perhaps you
got one. Can't say. Next time call me. I'll send one of my students. You
cover one quarter's tuition and the plane ticket and I know I'd have a
half-dozen volunteers.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #43
Mark A wrote:
Interview process? I hired a consultant from Oracle Corporation and paid top
dollar because I wanted a qualified and experienced person and I needed it
done quickly. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software on that
system. I gave the Oracle consultant full time use of my UNIX system
administrator during the 2 days.


Assuming what you say is true ... I'd send Mark the invoice number he
requested because it is simply outrageous. I've personally installed
Oracle 9.2.0.1, patched it to 9.2.0.4, and built a database on my PIII
500MHz IBM 600X Thinkpad in less than two hours. Send the invoice number
to Mark Townsend and do what you should have done in the first place ...
not complain ... demand an explanation.

Once again assuming, there isn't more to the story, the problem is not
the Oracle software ... it is the consultant and should not be
tolerated. There is, however, one proviso. How big were the tablespaces
he was creating? It can take hours to lay down hundreds of gigabytes of
datafile. If that is the case the limiting factor is not Oracle ... but
rather your DASD.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #44
> > I just want to know how
Oracle Consulting can charge $1400 per day to do a very simple Oracle
install


I really don't know. Did they doc the environment ? Was there OS patches
that needed to be applied ? Did they set up best practices for backup
and recovery etc. Any of those could take a day or two. If you want to
give me a PO I'll look it up from this end.
and why does it take 2 full days.


The install doesn't. Even on my iBook where I am writing this, a full
install with manual creation of the database takes less than 1 hour. On
my Windows laptop with the seed database, around 20-30 minutes.
"Mark Townsend


This was a simple install for a demo of a software product that used
Oracle. It was not a production server and was not even permanent. The
reason it took 2 days is because the Oracle consultant had problems doing
the install, just like most Oracle installs I have seen. I am not trying to
berate Oracle other than to say that it is a much more complex product than
DB2 and usually requires more staff.

I don't have access to the PO. It was about 2 years ago.
Nov 12 '05 #45
> Mark A wrote:
Interview process? I hired a consultant from Oracle Corporation and paid top dollar because I wanted a qualified and experienced person and I needed it done quickly. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software on that system. I gave the Oracle consultant full time use of my UNIX system
administrator during the 2 days.


Assuming what you say is true ... I'd send Mark the invoice number he
requested because it is simply outrageous. I've personally installed
Oracle 9.2.0.1, patched it to 9.2.0.4, and built a database on my PIII
500MHz IBM 600X Thinkpad in less than two hours. Send the invoice number
to Mark Townsend and do what you should have done in the first place ...
not complain ... demand an explanation.

Once again assuming, there isn't more to the story, the problem is not
the Oracle software ... it is the consultant and should not be
tolerated. There is, however, one proviso. How big were the tablespaces
he was creating? It can take hours to lay down hundreds of gigabytes of
datafile. If that is the case the limiting factor is not Oracle ... but
rather your DASD.

--
Daniel Morgan


As I have explained, the Oracle install was for a customer demo of a
software package. The database size was very small. In fact, I don't believe
that the install involved setting up any data, that was done by the
application install.

As I have said, my experience is that Oracle has a higher cost of ownership,
especially with regard to staff. YMMV.
Nov 12 '05 #46
Mark A wrote:
I just want to know how
Oracle Consulting can charge $1400 per day to do a very simple Oracle
install


I really don't know. Did they doc the environment ? Was there OS patches
that needed to be applied ? Did they set up best practices for backup
and recovery etc. Any of those could take a day or two. If you want to
give me a PO I'll look it up from this end.

and why does it take 2 full days.


The install doesn't. Even on my iBook where I am writing this, a full
install with manual creation of the database takes less than 1 hour. On
my Windows laptop with the seed database, around 20-30 minutes.
"Mark Townsend

This was a simple install for a demo of a software product that used
Oracle. It was not a production server and was not even permanent. The
reason it took 2 days is because the Oracle consultant had problems doing
the install, just like most Oracle installs I have seen. I am not trying to
berate Oracle other than to say that it is a much more complex product than
DB2 and usually requires more staff.

I don't have access to the PO. It was about 2 years ago.


Then (A) you should have objected immediately and (B) you should have
hired someone that knew what they were doing.

That someone comes from Oracle Consulting is no guarantee of expertise
anymore than the fact that someone comes from IBM consulting is a
guarantee. And at Boeing I worked with consultants from both companies,
sometimes on the same project, so .... well you can fill in the blank.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #47
Mark A wrote:
Mark A wrote:

Interview process? I hired a consultant from Oracle Corporation and paid
top
dollar because I wanted a qualified and experienced person and I needed
it
done quickly. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software on
that
system. I gave the Oracle consultant full time use of my UNIX system
administrato r during the 2 days.


Assuming what you say is true ... I'd send Mark the invoice number he
requested because it is simply outrageous. I've personally installed
Oracle 9.2.0.1, patched it to 9.2.0.4, and built a database on my PIII
500MHz IBM 600X Thinkpad in less than two hours. Send the invoice number
to Mark Townsend and do what you should have done in the first place ...
not complain ... demand an explanation.

Once again assuming, there isn't more to the story, the problem is not
the Oracle software ... it is the consultant and should not be
tolerated. There is, however, one proviso. How big were the tablespaces
he was creating? It can take hours to lay down hundreds of gigabytes of
datafile. If that is the case the limiting factor is not Oracle ... but
rather your DASD.

--
Daniel Morgan

As I have explained, the Oracle install was for a customer demo of a
software package. The database size was very small. In fact, I don't believe
that the install involved setting up any data, that was done by the
application install.

As I have said, my experience is that Oracle has a higher cost of ownership,
especially with regard to staff. YMMV.


I'd say your "experience " is meaningless. Not from the standpoint that
it wasn't your experience. But rather the fact that the experience you
had bears no relationship to the experience you should have, or could
have, had. Any hardware not more than 4 years old, doing what you've
described, I'll do it in one hour max or do it for free. Of course I
still want the $1400/diem. ;-)

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #48
Hi Daniel

I think i was misread..what you are referring to is shared
nothing...the RAC server which you setup is shared nothing
architecture..

I woudl like to sum up in case I was not clear..

shared nothing---(Hard for developers who wrote this architecture but
easy for application developers)

sahred everything ----(easy for developers who wrote this architecture
But difficult for applications developers as you now have to
prepartition data)

regards
Hrishy

Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<107509786 3.13589@yasure> ...
Comments in-line.

hrishy wrote:
Hi

But still there is one vital difference the thread failed to address..

shared nothing --Biggest advantage is it is transparent to
applications... You never know from which node you get your data.


Which amazingly enough is the same as shared everything except with
shared everything it is not only transparent ... it is meaningless
because the data is not associated with a node.
shared everything--You need to partition your application before
hand..as when you query


What have you been smoking? Today I taught a RAC class. Set up three
two-node clusters from scratch. We had 6 PCs, two switches, and one F810
NetApp NAS filer head. All data in a single datafile (meaning a single
tablespace) and accessed it seemlessly from all nodes of all three
clusters. Then sequentially pulled the plug on half the nodes and
watched the transactions fail-over in less than a minute.

Did we partition any data? Not one byte. I'd suggest you learn the
available architectures, federated, shared nothing, and shared
everything before trying to describe how they work.
1)select * from dept where deptno=10 it wil go to node 1


Not with shared everything.
2)select * from dept where deptno=20 it will go to node 2


Not with shared everything.

What goes to a node is based on load balancing and nothing else. Too
much load on node 1 ... transaction runs on 2.
well all those database that use shared nothing architecture (The
programmers have worked very very hard there ) have made the lives of
application developers much easier..


Right up until they add or subtract a node. With shared everything the
developers aren't involved in writing a single line of code beyon
stitching in TAF.
with shared everything..the application will have to be partitoned to
take advantage of the underlying shared everything architecture..

regards
Hrishy


What you don't understand would fill a book. Luckily that book ... has
already been written by Mike Ault.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

It is the one I use to teach classes at the University of Washington.

Nov 12 '05 #49
Hi daniel
Opps sorry..i made a blunder while posting...:-)

My line shared everything should hhave read as shared nothing and
shared nothing should have read as sahred everything.. :-)

Thanks for correcting me.

so my lines should read

select * from dept where deptno=10 it wil go to node 1

with shared nothing
select * from dept where deptno=10 it wil go to any of the nodes

with shared everything..
so application partitioning becomes vital in shared nothing
architecture.

once again thanks for correcting me.

regards
Hrishy

Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<107509786 3.13589@yasure> ...
Comments in-line.

hrishy wrote:
Hi

But still there is one vital difference the thread failed to address..

shared nothing --Biggest advantage is it is transparent to
applications... You never know from which node you get your data.


Which amazingly enough is the same as shared everything except with
shared everything it is not only transparent ... it is meaningless
because the data is not associated with a node.
shared everything--You need to partition your application before
hand..as when you query


What have you been smoking? Today I taught a RAC class. Set up three
two-node clusters from scratch. We had 6 PCs, two switches, and one F810
NetApp NAS filer head. All data in a single datafile (meaning a single
tablespace) and accessed it seemlessly from all nodes of all three
clusters. Then sequentially pulled the plug on half the nodes and
watched the transactions fail-over in less than a minute.

Did we partition any data? Not one byte. I'd suggest you learn the
available architectures, federated, shared nothing, and shared
everything before trying to describe how they work.
1)select * from dept where deptno=10 it wil go to node 1


Not with shared everything.
2)select * from dept where deptno=20 it will go to node 2


Not with shared everything.

What goes to a node is based on load balancing and nothing else. Too
much load on node 1 ... transaction runs on 2.
well all those database that use shared nothing architecture (The
programmers have worked very very hard there ) have made the lives of
application developers much easier..


Right up until they add or subtract a node. With shared everything the
developers aren't involved in writing a single line of code beyon
stitching in TAF.
with shared everything..the application will have to be partitoned to
take advantage of the underlying shared everything architecture..

regards
Hrishy


What you don't understand would fill a book. Luckily that book ... has
already been written by Mike Ault.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

It is the one I use to teach classes at the University of Washington.

Nov 12 '05 #50

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