new

[Willie Clement]

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what a time to
start eh? i would really like to know how a lot of you started
proggrmaing and what some things i would need to learn. I know about
reading books but what is something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

[J. Campbell]

wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote in message news:<25**************************@posting.google. com>...

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what a time to
start eh? i would really like to know how a lot of you started
proggrmaing and what some things i would need to learn. I know about
reading books but what is something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

I'm no C++ guru, but I'll give you my advice/experience, which is
worth what you paid. If you "want to get into programming", then
start programming. And take challenging science and math courses.
And start doing your homework "the easy way" by writing programs to do
them for you. The language you use doesn't really matter that much.
I know people who consider using spreadsheets "programming"...and it
is, really. As a matter of fact, if you can do what you want/need
with spreadsheets, then I'd learn that and quit there. If you want a
"real" language, using a translated language (rather than compiled)
language has some real advantages, especially at the beginning (you
get quicker feedback about your program (and thus learn faster), and
if you use a hardware-specific language, you get the ability to
quickly use graphics.). If you want to use C++, you lose both of
these advantages, and the language syntax/structure is not
particularly intuitive. I'm coming to C++ from a (clearly oblolete)
BASIC/QB perspective.

Still...I think this statement should be pondered. "Programming is
only necessarry when it's needed."--me, 2003. What I mean is...there
are often easier ways to solve the problem at hand than to write a
program...however, having the capibility/option to code can open
enormous doors to solving particular problems. However, if you become
proficient the "programming-alternative" workhorses (eg
spreadsheets/databases/word-processors) before contemplating a
programming project, you will be in a better position to judge whether
it is neccessary to undertake the effort, or if an easier solution may
exist.

For me...I always look for the *easiest/quickest* solution. For
example, if I need to crunch some numbers using simple
formulas...Excel is waiting. If I need database functionality...I'm
looking at access. If I need to use iterative algorithms, then I'm
going to use QB 4.5, or C++, depending on the scope of the project,
and on how much data needs to be calculated (since QB is slow,
generally, compared to c++, but is easier for me to quickly
write/debug shot code/utilities, and offers easy graphics...)

Anyway...I'd advise the following:

Learn Excel...do homework with it. When you get comfortable with it,
or start to feel it's limitations, learn c++ or java.

Bruce Eckel's (free, online) book "thinking in c++" volume 1, chapter
3 is a great place to start, once you "get" spread-sheet programming.
When you are comfortable using C++ as a procedural language, read the
rest of the chapters.

Cheers

[Noah Roberts]

Willie Clement wrote:

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what a time to
start eh?
Better late than never. Actually I never got serious about programming
until my 20's but I did start somewhere around 8-10 with AppleSoft BASIC
:P In reality the best I could do at that time was draw some stuff and
make the computer go beep beep in little toons.

10 PRINT "Hello"
20 GOTO 10

i would really like to know how a lot of you started proggrmaing and what some things i would need to learn.
I started by reading books, the internet, going to the
library...reading, and more reading. Typing in code, watching it NOT
compile...trying to figure out why...asking for help, acting like a newbie.

And you may or may not know, but there are litteraly terrabytes of
example code just lying about on the internet.

I know about reading books but what is something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

The first most helpful thing on my path to learning to program was to
install Linux and learn how to use it. When I started all that was
available for win32 was djgpp and you had to patch it or something
(whatever you had to do I didn't feel up to it). Now you have several
better alternatives that include many of the tools you would find on a
decent OS. So YMMV highly.

I looked all over the place for different languages and build
environments for windows until moving to Linux. Several versions of
basic, a strange language called C--, and others. Eventually I tried
settling in on Perl, downloaded the only version for win32 and started
working with it. Perl wasn't made for win32 and I got talked into
installing Linux to make life easier, which believe it or not it did.
Perl taught me a lot, and I still use it at work (net admin) but once I
went to C/C++/ObjC I never really looked back.

Now I am learning MIXAL, which is COMPLETELY useless in the real world :P

NR

[David B. Held]

"Willie Clement" <wc*******@msn.com> wrote in message
news:25**************************@posting.google.c om...

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what
a time to start eh? i would really like to know how a lot of
you started proggrmaing and what some things i would
need to learn. I know about reading books but what is
something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

You are so lucky. When I was a youngin, the "internet" was
just a mysterious thing used by some universities, and "online
services" were something too expensive for me and my
modemless house to afford. I had to scrape by with whatever
meager computer books my public library had to offer, and
whatever compiler tools came with whatever version of DOS
I happened to be using (which meant BASICA, GW-BASIC,
or debug). I was happy as a clam to get A86, which was a
shareware assembler.

My first "serious" development tool was Turbo C++. I still
think it's great. But you have an unbelievable array of
options available to you. If anything, you have the opposite
problem I had. You have so many ways to go about learning,
that your problem is choosing the path. My advice to you is:
get yourself on a *nix box. If you can, get your own computer,
and install Linux on it. You probably are already comfortable
with Windows, so getting familiar with a fundamentally
different OS will give you a broader range of experience
that will serve you well later on. Also, it makes it much easier
to use gcc. And if you should have any compiler, it should
be gcc. If you like, get all the front ends for it, and learn a
little about every language (I think that includes Fortran,
Ada, Lisp, C, and C++, at least...probably several more).

The best way to learn how to program is to pick a small,
doable program that you think is interesting, and try to
write it. One of my favorite programs for learning a new
language is Tetris. It's small, it works the terminal I/O
capabilities of the language, and it's fun to test once you're
done. If the language or the terminal can't handle Tetris, I
move on. I wrote Tetris for a TI-85, so you shouldn't have
any shortage of platforms on which to try this project. By
picking something you think would be fun to work on, you
will be motivated to learn and not give up. If you finish a
project, pick another one that tries out a different part of
the language. But most importantly, pick projects that you
think are fun. There will be plenty of opportunity to do other
people's work when you get older.

You're young, have fun! That's why I got into programming,
and if you manage to keep the fun in coding, then maybe
someday you'll get paid to do your hobby. Life doesn't
get much better than that.

If you go with C++, there are endless tutorials from which
to learn. Some are better than others. That's ok. You can't
help but learn a few wrong things now and then. Just keep
reading, and try to stay away from Herb Schildt books. For
good books, check out www.accu.org.

Dave

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[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 11 Oct 2003 19:57:10 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote:

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what a time to
start eh? i would really like to know how a lot of you started
proggrmaing
Please note: your question is off-topic in this group. You'd be better off
asking in e.g. [comp.programming]. But allowing for age:

I started programming using the TI 57 calculator and a Tandberg EC-10 8080-based
home computer (at school) using old Basic and 8080 assembly language. I think
the computer had a whopping 32 KB memory, but it may have been less. No harddisk,
of course, just 5¼" floppy disk and a variation on punched cards... ;-)

and what some things i would need to learn.
Satisfy your own curiosity.

Learn how a fundamental (simple) computer works.

Do fun things _and_ serious things, do easy things _and_ challenging things.
I know about
reading books but what is something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

I recommend starting in medium-level languages like JavaScript, PHP and
Perl (for web-oriented things) and C# or possibly Java for "applications".
The first three don't require special tools, but for C# (or possibly Java)
you'll find great, free tools on the net (e.g. SharpDevelop). While you're
doing this you will probably be unable to resist trying your hand on the
steering wheel of C, C++ and assembly language; just remember to back up
important data on that machine... ;-)

Use newsgroups like [comp.programming] and [alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++].

Remember that your local library can really help you out.

[Buster Copley]

Noah Roberts wrote:

Now I am learning MIXAL, which is COMPLETELY useless in the real world :P

You're a little behind the times.

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/mmix.html

Regards,
Buster.

[Noah Roberts]

Buster Copley wrote:

Noah Roberts wrote:

Now I am learning MIXAL, which is COMPLETELY useless in the real world :P

You're a little behind the times.

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/mmix.html

Tell me that when you have purchased the book based on MMIX.

NR

[Peter van Merkerk]

> I recommend starting in medium-level languages like JavaScript, PHP and

Perl (for web-oriented things) and C# or possibly Java for "applications".
Python (www.python.org) might be a good choice too. It is easy to learn, has
a clear syntax, it is powerful and it is free. One of the nice features of
Python is that you can enter a line of code and directly see its effects.
This greatly helps to learn and understand a programming language quickly.
Thanks to the elaborate library that comes with Python, one can get usefull
results without spending months coding.
The first three don't require special tools, but for C# (or possibly Java)
you'll find great, free tools on the net (e.g. SharpDevelop). While you're doing this you will probably be unable to resist trying your hand on the
steering wheel of C, C++ and assembly language; just remember to back up
important data on that machine... ;-)

Another nice feature of Python is that it smoothly integrates with C and
C++. There are many Python bindings around for popular C++ libraries like
wxWindows for example.

--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl

[Unforgiven]

Willie Clement wrote:

i really want to get into programming. I am only 15 but what a time to
start eh? i would really like to know how a lot of you started
proggrmaing and what some things i would need to learn. I know about
reading books but what is something that you actually use to program
in something such as c? we'll thanx a lot,!

I started programming when I was 10 (I'm 21 now). Back then, GW-BASIC came
with MS-DOS 4.01, and I got a book from my uncle called "Microsoft BASIC"
(which dealt with MSX-BASIC, MBASIC and GW-BASIC), which was my first
venture into programming. I still have the book and the MS-DOS disks
(although I doubt those still work).

Later I moved to QBASIC, and in 1994 (iirc) I got a *shock* illegal copy of
Visual Basic 3. If I look back on stuff from those days, what I did back
then I would hardly call programming today. I didn't indent, I named
variables a, b and c (for those who've worked in QB, the command DEFINT A-Z
should look familiar...), in short, my code was a mess.

In 1998 I started learning C++. Currently I'm 'fluent' in about half a dozen
languages, and at know a dozen more at least somewhat.

I find that I use C++ and Visual Basic .Net most often. What I use depends
greatly on the project I'm involved with, and I also quite often
mix-and-match languages for a single project, if certain subtasks are more
suited to that particular language.

As for my advice? Don't start with C(++). They're great languages, but if
you want to get something neat-looking to show your friends quickly, it's
not good. If you want to do something graphical, it'll take you months
before you can.

I recommend you start with a language like Visual Basic .Net, C# or Java.
All three are relatively easy, and you can quickly do nice things with them.
All three have free tools you can download to develop in them, so budget is
not a problem. Personally, I think the syntax of VB.NET is most natural for
a beginner and lends itself more easily to trial-and-error learning than the
other two, but considering my background I think I'm a little biased ^_^

After that, get a good book on the language of your choice, and start
programming!

--
Unforgiven

"Most people make generalisations"
Freek de Jonge

[Willie Clement]

thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!! most of you helped me and i
really appreciated it. thanx again!
willie

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote:

thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!

What's that for?

[David B. Held]

"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no> wrote in message
news:3f****************@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote:

thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!

What's that for?

Your condescending tone, if I had to guess. I think the
"moderators" have been at it so long, they have no idea
how offensive their "moderation" can sound to
newcomers (or even old-timers!). I can understand the
frustration of seeing off-topic posts on a regular basis,
but I can also understand that people make mistakes
and shouldn't be treated like VB coders because of it.

Dave

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[Alf P. Steinbach]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:53:12 -0500, "David B. Held" <dh***@codelogicconsulting.com> wrote:

"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no> wrote in message
news:3f****************@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote:

>thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!
What's that for?

Your condescending tone, if I had to guess.

Nothing I can do about that, I guess, I wasn't even aware of it.

I think the
"moderators" have been at it so long, they have no idea
how offensive their "moderation" can sound to
newcomers (or even old-timers!). I can understand the
frustration of seeing off-topic posts on a regular basis,
but I can also understand that people make mistakes
and shouldn't be treated like VB coders because of it.

Well, I sort of okayed his posting, as first respondent.

Won't do that again... From now on, a harsh regime! ;-)

[Rolf Magnus]

David B. Held wrote:

"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no> wrote in message
news:3f****************@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement)
wrote:

>thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!
What's that for?

Your condescending tone, if I had to guess.

I wonder what part of his answer falls into that category. He wrote how
he began himself and gave some good advices about how to start. His
posting just started with:

"Please note: your question is off-topic in this group.
You'd*be*better*off asking in e.g. [comp.programming]."

which doesn't really sound so condescending to me. He even gave the name
of another newsgroup for the question. Maybe I overlooked something
though, since English is not my native tongue. How would you suggest to
tell someone that his posting is off-topic and redirect him?
I think the
"moderators" have been at it so long, they have no idea
how offensive their "moderation" can sound to
newcomers (or even old-timers!).
Actually, it looks to me as if some newcomers are a bit too touchy. Alf
took the time to write some tips about starting programming, and in
return, he's explicitly excluded from the thanks, just because he
mentioned that the newsgroup is actually not the right one for the
question.
I can understand the
frustration of seeing off-topic posts on a regular basis,
but I can also understand that people make mistakes
Of course they do. But how are they supposed to learn if you don't tell
them that it was a mistake? How much more polite than "Please note:
your question is off-topic in this group." can you get?
and shouldn't be treated like VB coders because of it.

I don't understand that. where did Alf treat him like a VB coder? Or is
comp.programming something like a "disposal for VB coders"? :-)

[Alexander Terekhov]

Rolf Magnus wrote:
[...]

How would you suggest to tell someone that his posting is off-topic
and redirect him?

Engage "Reply to Sender Only". Feel free to play the moderator game
all day long... BUT "bounce"/redirect/whatnot in private, please.

regards,
alexander.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:35:14 +0200, Alexander Terekhov <te******@web.de> wrote:

Rolf Magnus wrote:
[...]

How would you suggest to tell someone that his posting is off-topic
and redirect him?

Engage "Reply to Sender Only". Feel free to play the moderator game
all day long... BUT "bounce"/redirect/whatnot in private, please.

<url: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=terekhov+off-topic>. ;-)

[WW]

Alexander Terekhov wrote:

Rolf Magnus wrote:
[...]

How would you suggest to tell someone that his posting is off-topic
and redirect him?

Engage "Reply to Sender Only". Feel free to play the moderator game
all day long... BUT "bounce"/redirect/whatnot in private, please.

The post had two lines saying off-topic and many times more giving helpful
advice. If you engage in a discussion please care to read the antecedents.

BTW:

Engage "Reply to Sender Only". Feel free to play the moderator game all day
long... BUT "bounce"/redirect/whatnot in private, please.

Ehem. yes. You just did the very same thing you were complaining about...

--
WW aka Attila

[WW]

Alf P. Steinbach wrote:

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement)
wrote:

thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!

What's that for?

Nothing. A touchy teenager, getting revenge for being (nicely) corrected.
We had our disagreements in the past (IIRC) but I have to say that this
bashing done to you is absolutely uncalled for. People need to learn to
read what is written... and not to imagine anything more. It should be done
exactly as you did: asking for clarification is the right way to go, not the
way of being offended.

--
WW aka Attila

[Alexander Terekhov]

WW wrote:
[...]

The post had two lines saying off-topic ....
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=al...reful+terekhov

[...] Ehem. yes. You just did the very same thing you were complaining about...

I'm kinda ANTI-NETCOP, WW. ;-)

regards,
alexander.

[WW]

Alexander Terekhov wrote:

WW wrote:

[...]

Ehem. yes. You just did the very same thing you were complaining
about...

I'm kinda ANTI-NETCOP, WW. ;-)

Nevertheless you did exactly what you were complaining about.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=te...be+careful+alf

;-) Just playing.

--
WW aka Attila

[jeffc]

"David B. Held" <dh***@codelogicconsulting.com> wrote in message
news:bm**********@news.astound.net...

"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no> wrote in message
news:3f****************@News.CIS.DFN.DE...

On 14 Oct 2003 16:39:13 -0700, wc*******@msn.com (Willie Clement) wrote:

thank you all! except: Alf P. Steinbach!!!

What's that for?

Your condescending tone, if I had to guess.

He sounded pretty helpful to me.

[David B. Held]

"Rolf Magnus" <ra******@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:bm*************@news.t-online.com...

David B. Held wrote:

[...]
Your condescending tone, if I had to guess.
I wonder what part of his answer falls into that category.

The part you didn't quote, of course.
He wrote how he began himself and gave some good
advices about how to start. His posting just started with:

"Please note: your question is off-topic in this group.
You'd be better off asking in e.g. [comp.programming]."
Yes, but the full introduction says:

"Please note: your question is off-topic in this group. You'd
be better off asking in e.g. [comp.programming]. But allowing
for age:"

Which I read as: "Since you're just a clueless kid, I'll let you
go this time...but if you were old enough to know better, I'd
give you a c.l.c++-style OT beat-down."
[...]
Actually, it looks to me as if some newcomers are a bit
too touchy.
I would agree if it weren't for the fact that some of the people
who are offended (and perhaps a bit suprised) by the
moderation here are, in fact, long-time users of Usenet.
I'm not talking about myself, of course (though I have used
Usenet for about 10 years).
lf took the time to write some tips about starting
programming, and in return, he's explicitly excluded from
the thanks, just because he mentioned that the newsgroup
is actually not the right one for the question.
[...]

I agree that the response seemed a bit harsh. But then, I
can see both sides, while it seems that the c.l.c++ veterans
have become desensitized to the brusque and haughty
attitude sometimes displayed by the moderators. If I had to
guess, part of the problem is that programmers in general
tend to be cockier than the population at large. Being able
to control high technology is not a skill everyone is born with,
and it can allow one to wield immense power. Despite the
image of "computer geeks", I think it is generally recognized
that computer experts are a type of modern priesthood that
is revered in its own special way by the technologically
illiterate (or even semi-literate). So maybe programmers
as a rule have a slightly different sense of what is polite
than people in other fields. A newcomer to technology is
just the same as an outsider, so not being accustomed to
programmer culture and it's fairly competitive nature would
probably tend to make outsiders surprised at how rude
programmers can be, even when they think they are being
polite.

For instance, when I see a fellow programmer try to explain
a software problem to a business client that is not very
computer literate, the glazed-over look in the client's eyes
says that they consider the explanation not very helpful,
even though the programmer is intentionally trying to "dumb
down" the response, and feels he is being clear.

Dave

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