MISRA is looking at doing a MISRA-C++ This is because they were asked to
do it by a lot of people in industry.
They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be made up of experienced industrial high-integrity C++ sw
engineers. They are looking at meeting once a month for about a year.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ 34  5870 
Chris Hills wrote:
[...] They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be [..]
You may be looking in a wrong place. Try misc.jobs.offered.
If you're not looking to *hire* people but instead to attract them to
some kind of standardisation process, you might consider posting a bit
more explanation. Just a thought...
In article <Ej*******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ve rio.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes Chris Hills wrote:
[...] They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be [..]
You may be looking in a wrong place. Try misc.jobs.offered.
Nope.
If you're not looking to *hire* people but instead to attract them to
some kind of standardisation process, you might consider posting a bit
more explanation. Just a thought...
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
MISRA-C is a coding guideline for embedded and safety related C
primarily in the automotive market but it escaped to be used all over
including medical and aerospace. It has been very successful and is now
used world wide. In fact that is hardly a line of automotive C code
anywhere in the world that is not written to MISRAS-C. MISRA has been
asked t do a C++ version so they are looking for people to take part.
BTW MISRA= Motor Industry SW Reliability Association.
see www.MISRA-C.com, there is nothing on the CPP web site as they have
only just started looking at this as of last week.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
--
Mike Smith
In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>,
Mike Smith <mi*****************@acm.org> wrote: Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Chris, I find your post quite on topic, and thank you for making it.
And yes, I did see it on comp.arch.embedded as well.
You might also try comp.lang.c++.moderated. It's moderated by
professionals.
-Howard
In article <hinnant-B508FF.10510230082005@syrcnyrdrs-
01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, Howard Hinnant <hi*****@metrowerks.com> writes In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>,
Mike Smith <mi*****************@acm.org> wrote:
Chris Hills wrote: >
> Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
> MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
> high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Chris, I find your post quite on topic, and thank you for making it.
And yes, I did see it on comp.arch.embedded as well.
You might also try comp.lang.c++.moderated. It's moderated by
professionals.
-Howard
Thanks Howard.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>, Mike Smith
<mi*****************@acm.org> writes Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems.
I said embedded or high integrity.
This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Sorry Mike, My mistake, I thought MISRA-C++ was something to do with C++
standardisation. MISRA-C certainly has become a major influence on C.
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
When you say embedded systems you mean ones using the 32 and 64 bit
processors and RTOS like Linux, Solaris, Unix and Win CE? Systems with
2 gigabyte hard drives and 500 Mb memory?
But as this NG does not do embedded or high integrity I can only assume
you are only interested in low integrity systems :-)
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills wrote: [...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post, you also apparently have a very strange
sense of how to behave when your mistakes are pointed out.
MISRA-C++ has NOTHING to do with standardisation of C++, a simple
search on 'comp.std.c++' shows that. One mention of MISRA C, and
mostly in derogatory terms (as you should be aware, since you've
participated in that thread).
[...]
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes Chris Hills wrote: [...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
Having been involved in this NG and standards for over 14 years I do
have some idea. So far you are the only person to complain.
you also apparently have a very strange
sense of how to behave when your mistakes are pointed out.
So do you.
MISRA-C++ has NOTHING to do with standardisation of C++,
I beg to differ (as do members of the ISO C++ panel who have contacted
me by email)
Also this is NOT comp.std.c++ but comp.lang.C++ you might have had
slightly more of a point if it was comp.std.c++ but this NG is for c++
in general which definitely includes MISRA-C++
If you don't like it don't read the posts.
a simple
search on 'comp.std.c++' shows that.
As this is the announcement of the START of MISRA-C++ how would there
have been any mention of it previously?
One mention of MISRA C, and
mostly in derogatory terms (as you should be aware, since you've
participated in that thread).
C is not C++. C is off topic here.
Did you have a similar closed mind when EC++ was mentioned in the past.
As both EC++ and MISRA-C++ I expect will be intimately connected with
ISO C++. EC++ is effectivly a standard and MISRA-C++ is likely to
become one if the C version is anything to go by.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk: In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writesChris Hills wrote: [...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in your
original post. Only a reference to some other group who apparently want to
draw up some coding guidelines, presumably only using Standard C++
facilities. And you follow up with some whiny statement about how the
denizens of comp.lang.c++ don't actually use the language. Very
professional of you.
Chris Hills wrote: In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>, Mike Smith
<mi*****************@acm.org> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems.
I said embedded or high integrity.
Then find your self a comp.systems.high-integrity newsgroup.
This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Sorry Mike, My mistake, I thought MISRA-C++ was something to do with C++
standardisation.
Apology accepted. The C++ language is standardized by ISO, not by
MISRA. MISRA can standardize a particular *way of using* the ISO
standard C++ language if they want, but that's not the same thing.
MISRA-C certainly has become a major influence on C.
"Having a major influence on" and "defining the standard for" are not
the same thing.
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
When you say embedded systems you mean ones using the 32 and 64 bit
processors and RTOS like Linux, Solaris, Unix and Win CE? Systems with
2 gigabyte hard drives and 500 Mb memory?
But as this NG does not do embedded or high integrity I can only assume
you are only interested in low integrity systems :-)
Gee, first you apologize, then you troll/flame/insult. What are we to
think?
When it comes to c.l.c++, my interest is in *the C++ language*, and has
nothing to do with embedded vs. desktop (even though my area of
involvement tends toward the embedded), or high vs. low integrity (and
you bet your ass that my area of involvement tends toward high rather
than low integrity). There's not need for you to get insulting, just
because you posted something to the wrong newsgroup.
--
Mike Smith
Andre Kostur wrote: Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk:
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
[...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side.
And I would have thought that my previous post would also have been so
interpreted.
--
Mike Smith
In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>, Mike Smith
<mi*****************@acm.org> writes Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
--
Mike Smith
No that would be comp.std.c++
This is a general C++ NG.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <Xn*******************************@207.35.177.135> , Andre
Kostur <nn******@kostur.net> writes Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk:
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writesChris Hills wrote:
[...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in your
original post.
Why should there be I was not posting to comp.std.c++ If you want to
only discuss the C++ standard then go there. This is a group to discuss
C++ in general. So the new MISRA C++ is on topic.
Only a reference to some other group who apparently want to
draw up some coding guidelines, presumably only using Standard C++
facilities.
Some other group? MISRA has at the moment the most widely used C coding
standard there is. I think some one worked out there are more copies of
MISRA-C being used than the C99 standard. That is why MISRA were asked
to do the C++ version.
And you follow up with some whiny statement about how the
denizens of comp.lang.c++ don't actually use the language. Very
professional of you.
I asked if the only thing they were interested in was C++
standardisation (in which case the are in the wrong group) or the
practical application of C++
Some one seemed to think that embedded and high integrity C++ had no
place here. Which leaves what? Low integrity? :-)
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills wrote: In article <11*************@news.supernews.com>, Mike Smith
<mi*****************@acm.org> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
--
Mike Smith
No that would be comp.std.c++
No, 'comp.std.c++' discusses C++ Standard. We here discuss Standard C++.
This is a general C++ NG.
There is no such thing as "general C++". I think it's time for you to
read the Welcome message and the FAQ.
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:97**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk: In article <Xn*******************************@207.35.177.135> , Andre
Kostur <nn******@kostur.net> writesChris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk:
In article
<UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>, Victor
Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
> [...]
> On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
> probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who
commented think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you
are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in
your original post.
Why should there be I was not posting to comp.std.c++ If you want to
only discuss the C++ standard then go there. This is a group to
discuss C++ in general. So the new MISRA C++ is on topic.
This is where you appear to be going wrong. You seem to not be able to
see the difference between "discussing the C++ Standard" and "using the
C++ Standard".
Only a reference to some other group who apparently want to
draw up some coding guidelines, presumably only using Standard C++
facilities.
Some other group? MISRA has at the moment the most widely used C
coding standard there is. I think some one worked out there are more
copies of MISRA-C being used than the C99 standard. That is why MISRA
were asked to do the C++ version.
Yep. Some other group. Apparently more than one of us has never heard
of them.
And you follow up with some whiny statement about how the
denizens of comp.lang.c++ don't actually use the language. Very
professional of you.
I asked if the only thing they were interested in was C++
standardisation (in which case the are in the wrong group) or the
practical application of C++
Nope. Here in clc++ we're interested in the usage of Standard C++.
csc++ deals with the standardization aspect. After they're done with it
is when we start discussing it. 3rd party libraries (for example) are
off-topic. We don't care that they happen to be written in C++.
Some one seemed to think that embedded and high integrity C++ had no
place here. Which leaves what? Low integrity? :-)
No, some one seemed to think that C++ _that is specific to_ embedded and
high integrity has no place here. Similarly C++ _that is specific to_
low integrity is equally off-topic. Here we call that "implementation
and/or platform specific details", and is off-topic (unless we're dealing
with a subset of Standard C++, but then the detail that it is embedded or
not is an irrelevant detail).
Victor Bazarov wrote:
[...] There is no such thing as "general C++". I think it's time for you to
read the Welcome message and the FAQ.
na zabore ... napisan, a tam drova.
</ping>
regards,
alexander.
Andre Kostur wrote: OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in your
original post. Only a reference to some other group who apparently want to
draw up some coding guidelines, presumably only using Standard C++
facilities. And you follow up with some whiny statement about how the
denizens of comp.lang.c++ don't actually use the language. Very
professional of you.
I don't have an opinion as to whether MISRA C++ discussion is OT or
not, but as someone who does write embedded system, I don't care about
a MISRA C++ "standard" anymore than the Embedded C++ "standard." The
only standard I care about (language-wise) is the actual C++ Standard.
Give me that, and I'll decide what parts are proper to use in my
development. So, I guess on that score, I too am with Victor.
REH
Chris Hills wrote: In article <Xn*******************************@207.35.177.135> , Andre
Kostur <nn******@kostur.net> writes
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk:
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
>[...]
>On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
>probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in your
original post.
Why should there be I was not posting to comp.std.c++ If you want to
only discuss the C++ standard then go there. This is a group to discuss
C++ in general.
I don't think that's correct, but perhaps I'm wrong.
So the new MISRA C++ is on topic.
Could you could please consult the FAQ for this group and tell us if you
think the FAQ can be interpreted such that what you're posting is on topic? http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9
TIA
LR
In article <lM*******************@monger.newsread.com>, LR
<lr***@superlink.net> writes Chris Hills wrote:
In article <Xn*******************************@207.35.177.135> , Andre
Kostur <nn******@kostur.net> writes
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote in
news:ZJ**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk:
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes
>Chris Hills wrote:
>
>>[...]
>>On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
>>probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
>
>You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
>where to post or how to post,
You think it should not be posted here. Myself and another who commented
think it is relevant. On that straw poll I would say you are wrong.
OK... then I vote on Victor's side. I see no Standard C++ content in your
original post.
Why should there be I was not posting to comp.std.c++ If you want to
only discuss the C++ standard then go there. This is a group to discuss
C++ in general.
I don't think that's correct, but perhaps I'm wrong.
So the new MISRA C++ is on topic.
Could you could please consult the FAQ for this group and tell us if you
think the FAQ can be interpreted such that what you're posting is on topic?
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...t.html#faq-5.9
TIA
it says
"Only post to comp.lang.c++ if your question is about the C++ language
itself. For example, C++ code design, syntax, style, rules, bugs, etc.
Ultimately this means your question must be answerable by looking into
the C++ language definition as determined by the ISO/ANSI C++ Standard
document, and by planned extensions and adjustments"
So yes MISRA-C++ as a subset coding guide is directly relevant to
syntax, style, rules, bugs etc in the ISO C++ standard. Especially the
"planned extensions and adjustments".
However I find the narrow minded view of a few people here breathtaking.
In another NG someone commented on just this sort of attitude that
killed off Pascal and Basic also leading C a long way from it' users to
the extent there have been virtually no compiler implementations of the
C99 standard in the last 6 years.
In fact all three language standards now have little bearing on the
industrial use of those languages.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills wrote: see
www.MISRA-C.com
The page cannot be displayed
Explanation: There is a problem with the page you are trying to reach
and it cannot be displayed.
Try the following:
* Refresh page: Search for the page again by clicking the Refresh
button. The timeout may have occurred due to Internet congestion.
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correctly. The address may have been mistyped.
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looking for, try accessing the page from that link.
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* Error Code: 403 Forbidden. The server denied the specified
Uniform Resource Locator (URL). Contact the server administrator. (12202)
Mike Smith wrote: Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Hi Chris,
Please ignore the off-topic cops.
All aspects of MISRA-C++ that address standard C++
are on-topic in the comp.lang.c++ newsgroup.
"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:df**********@nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov... Mike Smith wrote:
Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Hi Chris,
Please ignore the off-topic cops.
All aspects of MISRA-C++ that address standard C++
are on-topic in the comp.lang.c++ newsgroup.
I'm basically inclined to agree. Nevertheless, anybody rude
enough to toss out a zinger like:
: On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
: probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
deserves to get zinged in return.
P.J. Plauger
Dinkumware, Ltd. http://www.dinkumware.com
E. Robert Tisdale wrote: Chris Hills wrote:
see
www.MISRA-C.com
The page cannot be displayed
You may try http://www.misra.org.uk/
BTW, I think this is not OT. MISRA tries to define a Coding Style
oriented to make programs more reliable, as I see it. And that is one of
the objectives in this list: C++ style
On Tuesday 30 August 2005 00:51, Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org>
(<1F**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk>) wrote: Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C
Certainly not.
and therefore would know what MISRA-C++ would be.
Regardonly of what "MISRA-C++" would be, only that portion which is
compliant with the ISO C++ standard is on-topic. Anything else is not part
of the C++ language and therefore obviously belongs elsewhere.
In article <Lp********************@giganews.com>, P.J. Plauger
<pj*@dinkumware.com> writes "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.**************@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote in message
news:df**********@nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov...
Mike Smith wrote:
Chris Hills wrote:
Sorry I thought everyone knew of MISRA-C and therefore would know what
MISRA-C++ would be. Certainly anyone working in embedded systems or
high-integrity systems should do.
Which would mean that your assumption would have been correct for a
newsgroup dedicated to the development of embedded systems. This is a
newsgroup dedicated to discussion of the ISO standard C++ language.
Hi Chris,
Please ignore the off-topic cops.
All aspects of MISRA-C++ that address standard C++
are on-topic in the comp.lang.c++ newsgroup.
I'm basically inclined to agree. Nevertheless, anybody rude
enough to toss out a zinger like:
: On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
: probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
deserves to get zinged in return.
That was responding in kind to the unprovoked abuse thrown at me in the
in the first instance. The impression I have from several members of
the NG was we only want to talk about the ISO C++ standard [not the use
of the language]
I find it a strange reaction when some one posts a note of a group
working on a language subset for industrial use. Give the world wide
influence MISRA-C has had I would have thought C++ experts would have
wanted to keep track of the C++ version or even help guide it.
It is not use complaining after the event that it got it wrong if you
turned down the opportunity to guide it.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <7W***********************@telenews.teleline.es> , Zara
<yo****@terra.es> writes E. Robert Tisdale wrote: Chris Hills wrote:
see
www.MISRA-C.com
The page cannot be displayed
You may try http://www.misra.org.uk/
BTW, I think this is not OT. MISRA tries to define a Coding Style
oriented to make programs more reliable, as I see it. And that is one of
the objectives in this list: C++ style
It is a coding guide NOT a style guide. Yes it aims to make C++ safer in
use. As did EC++
The C version started life as a UK automotive industry guide in 1997.
Now it is in world wide use by AFAIK ALL automotive manufacturers as
well as many aerospace and medical users. It has also been acepted by
the SAe and JSAE among others. Apart from a whole host of "ordinary"
users. BTW no one claimed it was perfect, a second version came out in
2004.
Because of the widespread take up of MISRA-C MISRA was asked to do a
similar guide for C++ so people have been mentioning it in various
places to give interested parties the opportunity to contribute.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills schreef: MISRA is looking at doing a MISRA-C++ This is because they were asked to
do it by a lot of people in industry.
They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be made up of experienced industrial high-integrity C++ sw
engineers. They are looking at meeting once a month for about a year.
Will this be a publicly available document? If so, it might benefit
from being also offered as an ISO C++ Technical Report (like the C++
TR on Performance).
This will also shortcircuit any issues about being off-topic. True,
an ISO C++ TR is no ISO C++ Standard, but it is part of the "concept"
ISO C++
HTH,
Michiel Salters
In article <11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
msalters <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> writes
Chris Hills schreef:
MISRA is looking at doing a MISRA-C++ This is because they were asked to
do it by a lot of people in industry.
They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be made up of experienced industrial high-integrity C++ sw
engineers. They are looking at meeting once a month for about a year.
Will this be a publicly available document?
Yes. It will be sold, as are most MISRA (and ISO, ANSI, BSI) documents.
If so, it might benefit
from being also offered as an ISO C++ Technical Report (like the C++
TR on Performance).
It could do if it goes in with out any editing by ISO or it's panels.
IE published as delivered.
This will also shortcircuit any issues about being off-topic. True,
an ISO C++ TR is no ISO C++ Standard, but it is part of the "concept"
ISO C++
However given the large response and numbers of people involved
internationally in MISRA-C I don't MISRA has any need of support from
ISO. The reason they are starting MISRA-C++ is that they were asked to
do it by a lot of people, companies and organisations.
The posting here was just to see if any C++ people wanted to get
involved.
Some do (thanks for the emails) and some don't.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Chris Hills schreef: In article <11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
msalters <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> writes
Chris Hills schreef:
MISRA is looking at doing a MISRA-C++ This is because they were asked to
do it by a lot of people in industry.
They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
The team will be made up of experienced industrial high-integrity C++ sw
engineers. They are looking at meeting once a month for about a year.
Will this be a publicly available document?
Yes. It will be sold, as are most MISRA (and ISO, ANSI, BSI) documents.
I see that "publicly" means something else to you. I actually meant
free-as-in-beer, to use the informal term.
If so, it might benefit
from being also offered as an ISO C++ Technical Report (like the C++
TR on Performance).
It could do if it goes in with out any editing by ISO or it's panels.
IE published as delivered.
Couldn't say that for sure. Of course, /if/ it's edited, the resulting
TR would be different from the MISRA document and MISRA can still
publish
the original version. After all, ISO did change C when they got the
ANSI
C Standard (and most national organizations add a coverpage with
national
Standard IDs).
However, if MISRA would join WG21 for the purpose of this doc, it's
members can attend WG21 meetings. In that case, they would have direct
influence over the report. ISO doesn't willy-nilly edit documents.
There
may be a request by e.g. BSI to edit the docs (with the implied threat
of a NO vote). If the authors decide to ignore that, the result may be
that the ISO TR is never voted in or voted in despite BSI objections.
In both cases MISRA would have the document they wanted, allthough in
the first case it would be only a MISRA doc.
However given the large response and numbers of people involved
internationally in MISRA-C I don't MISRA has any need of support from
ISO.
IIRC, there may be other (legal) reasons. I'm not sure about the legal
form of MISRA, but ISO has the advantage that competing companies can
join forces. In some countries it would be an anti-trust violation, but
official Standards Bodies have exemptions. ISO is about as official as
it gets. E.g. the WG21 members together control pretty much 100% of the
C++ compiler market, but this is legal because it's ISO.
HTH,
Michiel Salters
In article <11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups .com>,
"msalters" <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> wrote: However, if MISRA would join WG21 for the purpose of this doc, it's
members can attend WG21 meetings. In that case, they would have direct
influence over the report. ISO doesn't willy-nilly edit documents.
There
may be a request by e.g. BSI to edit the docs (with the implied threat
of a NO vote). If the authors decide to ignore that, the result may be
that the ISO TR is never voted in or voted in despite BSI objections.
In both cases MISRA would have the document they wanted, allthough in
the first case it would be only a MISRA doc.
That's a very interesting suggestion. That would put embedded
developer's concerns directly in plain view of the committee, with the
possible end result that the C++ langauge / library itself evolves in a
direction that is at the very least, not embedded-hostile, and perhaps
even embedded-friendly.
Indeed this is the approach that was adopted by the EC++ consortium: http://www.caravan.net/ec2plus/
While I do regularly attend the standards meetings, I was not part of
the EC++ consortium, and so can't speak as to the success or failure of
their efforts. However as a C++ vendor which regularly targets embedded
systems, I can assure you that there is interest already in the
committee on ensuring that C++ is a viable development language in the
embedded markets.
I believe I can say with some authority (as can Michiel Salters as well)
that MIRA's participation in WG21 would be welcomed.
-Howard
Senior Library Engineer
Freescale
Library Working Group Chairman, ANSI (J16) and ISO (WG21)
In article <11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups .com>,
msalters <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> writes
Chris Hills schreef:
In article <11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
msalters <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> writes >
>Chris Hills schreef:
>
>> MISRA is looking at doing a MISRA-C++ This is because they were asked to
>> do it by a lot of people in industry.
>>
>> They are looking for some people to make up the team (based in the UK)
>> The team will be made up of experienced industrial high-integrity C++ sw
>> engineers. They are looking at meeting once a month for about a year.
>
>Will this be a publicly available document?
Yes. It will be sold, as are most MISRA (and ISO, ANSI, BSI) documents.
I see that "publicly" means something else to you. I actually meant
free-as-in-beer, to use the informal term.
You mean like the freely available ISO standard? :-)
> If so, it might benefit
>from being also offered as an ISO C++ Technical Report (like the C++
>TR on Performance).
It could do if it goes in with out any editing by ISO or it's panels.
IE published as delivered.
Couldn't say that for sure.
Then it is a non-starter.
However, if MISRA would join WG21 for the purpose of this doc, it's
members can attend WG21 meetings. In that case, they would have direct
influence over the report. ISO doesn't willy-nilly edit documents.
It has no need to do that. In industry the MISRA name is OK on it's own.
However at least two members of the MISRA team are on the UK C++ panel
There
may be a request by e.g. BSI to edit the docs
Then it would definitely not get anywhere near ISO. :-)
(with the implied threat
of a NO vote). If the authors decide to ignore that, the result may be
that the ISO TR is never voted in or voted in despite BSI objections.
In both cases MISRA would have the document they wanted, allthough in
the first case it would be only a MISRA doc.
"only be a MISRA doc" is all it needs. MISRA has a VERY strong brand.
That is why it was approached to do it in the first place. However given the large response and numbers of people involved
internationally in MISRA-C I don't MISRA has any need of support from
ISO.
IIRC, there may be other (legal) reasons. I'm not sure about the legal
form of MISRA, but ISO has the advantage that competing companies can
join forces.
They do for MISRA ie ALL the worlds major automotive companies for the C
one. The net is a bit wider for the C++ version.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <hinnant-34FB32.12033701092005@syrcnyrdrs-
03-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, Howard Hinnant <hi*****@metrowerks.com> writes In article <11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups .com>,
"msalters" <Mi*************@logicacmg.com> wrote:
However, if MISRA would join WG21 for the purpose of this doc, it's
members can attend WG21 meetings. In that case, they would have direct
influence over the report. ISO doesn't willy-nilly edit documents.
There
may be a request by e.g. BSI to edit the docs (with the implied threat
of a NO vote). If the authors decide to ignore that, the result may be
that the ISO TR is never voted in or voted in despite BSI objections.
In both cases MISRA would have the document they wanted, allthough in
the first case it would be only a MISRA doc.
That's a very interesting suggestion. That would put embedded
developer's concerns directly in plain view of the committee, with the
possible end result that the C++ langauge / library itself evolves in a
direction that is at the very least, not embedded-hostile, and perhaps
even embedded-friendly.
Which is why I mentioned MISRA C++ in this NG but I got told to take it
away!
I think that the C++ community should be involved especially the
standards people.
While I do regularly attend the standards meetings, I was not part of
the EC++ consortium, and so can't speak as to the success or failure of
their efforts. However as a C++ vendor which regularly targets embedded
systems, I can assure you that there is interest already in the
committee on ensuring that C++ is a viable development language in the
embedded markets.
Perhaps you may want to talk to the MISRA C++ team? They need reviewers
as well as a working party. Whilst the working party is UK based the
reviewers can be anywhere. For the C version reviewers were across the
globe. Several hundreds in fact.
I believe I can say with some authority (as can Michiel Salters as well)
that MIRA's participation in WG21 would be welcomed.
Then perhaps you need to talk to The MISRA-C++ team?
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In article <6i**************@phaedsys.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys.org> wrote: That's a very interesting suggestion. That would put embedded
developer's concerns directly in plain view of the committee, with the
possible end result that the C++ langauge / library itself evolves in a
direction that is at the very least, not embedded-hostile, and perhaps
even embedded-friendly.
Which is why I mentioned MISRA C++ in this NG but I got told to take it
away!
If you bait the topic police, they will come. Please stop. You do not
need nor should you want the last word in that debate.
I think that the C++ community should be involved especially the
standards people.
While I do regularly attend the standards meetings, I was not part of
the EC++ consortium, and so can't speak as to the success or failure of
their efforts. However as a C++ vendor which regularly targets embedded
systems, I can assure you that there is interest already in the
committee on ensuring that C++ is a viable development language in the
embedded markets.
Perhaps you may want to talk to the MISRA C++ team? They need reviewers
as well as a working party. Whilst the working party is UK based the
reviewers can be anywhere. For the C version reviewers were across the
globe. Several hundreds in fact.
My organization is still evaluating your proposal. The reviewer status
you mention here for the first time is an interesting proposition. The
working party participation for non-Europe based personnel seems
excessively expensive. But a participation that didn't require long
travel once a month for twelve months may be much more palatable. It's
a shame I couldn't have informed my organization of this option a week
ago. Quite frankly I fear the milk has already soured. But I will make
an effort...
Additionally, perhaps the MISRA C++ team may want to talk to WG21? If
MISRA C++ ends up with the same spec that EC++ did, it will surely have
the same effect.
-Howard
In article <UA******************@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.ver io.net>,
Victor Bazarov <v.********@comAcast.net> writes Chris Hills wrote: [...]
On the other hand you are probably right. C++ language "experts"
probably want nothing to do with actually using the language.
You know, I am offended by this remark. Not only have you no idea
where to post or how to post, you also apparently have a very strange
sense of how to behave when your mistakes are pointed out.
MISRA-C++ has NOTHING to do with standardisation of C++, a simple
search on 'comp.std.c++' shows that.
Which probably explains why WG21 (the ISO C++ panel) has appointed a
three person liaison team to MISRA C++. Several other WG21 people have
asked to be involved. SO now it is definitely on topic.
BTW until I mentioned MISRA-C++ there would have been no other mentions
of it to find in a search because it had not actually started at that
time.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
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