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Java or C++?

P: n/a
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Jun 27 '08 #1
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63 Replies


P: n/a
* s0****@gmail.com:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer?
Define "better".

Going to Java will be easier.

Which one will educate me the best?
Define "best".
Cheers, & hth.,

- Alf
Jun 27 '08 #2

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 8:59 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.nowrote:
* s0s...@gmail.com:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer?

Define "better".

Going to Java will be easier.
Which one will educate me the best?

Define "best".

Cheers, & hth.,

- Alf
Well, I mean "better" and "best" in a very general sense, whichever
sense you want to interpret it on. More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier. Thanks.
Jun 27 '08 #3

P: n/a
On 19 huhti, 17:32, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier.
The reason you are asking this here is that you have already
decided for C++, which we all know is the best programming
language.
Jun 27 '08 #4

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 9:41 am, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fiwrote:
On 19 huhti, 17:32, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier.

The reason you are asking this here is that you have already
decided for C++, which we all know is the best programming
language.
Not quite. I also posted it on comp.lang.java.programmer. I really
really can't decide!
Jun 27 '08 #5

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 8:26 pm, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
It depends on what do you want to do with C++ or Java.

I've spend several years with Java and becoming interested in C++.
They are strong at different kind of applications.

What kind of applications do you want to develop next?
Jun 27 '08 #6

P: n/a
On 19 huhti, 17:44, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I also posted it on comp.lang.java.programmer.
Illogical.
I really really can't decide!
There is no decision to be made. C++ is the true way.
Jun 27 '08 #7

P: n/a
On 19 Apr., 19:09, Krice <pau...@mbnet.fiwrote:
There is no decision to be made. C++ is the true way.
That's the spirit! :-)))

best,

Michael.
Jun 27 '08 #8

P: n/a
s0****@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Well, what is it you want to program?

You want to program 2D games? Java may be the way to go.
You want to program 3D games? C++ may be the way to go.
You want to write device drivers? C++

C++ is a more generall all around language that will allow you do do
anything, but with a cost. The cost of a much longer and steeper learning
curve. Java will get you writing applications faster, but for some things
you just won't be able to do it in Java or will have to find a library
written in some other language (such as C++) that interfaces into Java.
--
Jim Langston
ta*******@rocketmail.com
Jun 27 '08 #9

P: n/a
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:26:05 -0700 (PDT), s0****@gmail.com wrote:
>I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Good trolling post :)Obviously the answer would depend on the group
you posted this. You should have cross-posted the question, just for
some fun :) There is nothing that you can do in C++ that you can't do
in Java (except write low-lever drivers perhaps). Everything that you
can do in C++, you can do it much easier in Java with standard
libraries that support threading, networking, GUI and much more. Also,
the java app with GUI and networking will run only every OS that has a
JVM. In C++ you have to hunt for libraries, build them, and there is
no guarantee that you will get a portable product in the end.

Jun 27 '08 #10

P: n/a
On 20 huhti, 00:40, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
Everything that you
can do in C++, you can do it much easier in Java
Can you break the class hierarchy and just hack in some old
school procedural code in Java?
Jun 27 '08 #11

P: n/a
Sam
s0****@gmail.com writes:
On Apr 19, 8:59 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.nowrote:
>* s0s...@gmail.com:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer?

Define "better".

Going to Java will be easier.
Which one will educate me the best?

Define "best".

Cheers, & hth.,

- Alf

Well, I mean "better" and "best" in a very general sense, whichever
sense you want to interpret it on. More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier. Thanks.
If you already know Python, you will probably find Java easier to learn than
C++. Learning C++ will take more time, and will be more difficult. However,
once you know C++ you will have a much better understanding of low level
details that goes behind the scenes while your program runs, than Java,
which hides a lot of low-level details from you.

Then, once you already have wrapped your brain around C++, you will find
Java easier to learn next, and you will learn to be a better Java
programmer, because you will have a better understanding how the Java VM
works than someone who learned Java without known C++.

If try to learn C++ after learning Java, you may find it a bit of a rough
going. Your existing Java-oriented mindset you may make it more difficult to
learn important C++ concepts than if you were to approach C++ from a neutral
viewpoint, without already acquiring the Java way of looking at things.

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Jun 27 '08 #12

P: n/a
s0****@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Both of course. Both are important contemporary languages that a
professional programmer ought to have at least some basic knowledge of.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Any Lisp dialect.
Jun 27 '08 #13

P: n/a
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:05:46 -0700 (PDT), Krice <pa****@mbnet.fi>
wrote:
>Can you break the class hierarchy and just hack in some old
school procedural code in Java?
You can malke the class final and make everything static.
Jun 27 '08 #14

P: n/a
On 19 avr, 23:40, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:26:05 -0700 (PDT), s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
There is nothing that you can do in C++ that you can't do
in Java (except write low-lever drivers perhaps).
There's actually a lot: programming by contract, for example, or
intelligent management of locks. Or distribute a program for
which you can give reasonable guarantees of reliability on any
platform on which it runs (i.e. no dynamic linking).

I work mainly on large servers. I can't use Java for
reliability reasons; my code must work, every time.
Everything that you can do in C++, you can do it much easier
in Java with standard libraries that support threading,
Threading is actually considerably easier to do right in C++
than in Java.
networking, GUI and much more.
GUI is easier in Java. I've had no problem networking in C++,
and all of the large servers I'm familiar with (e.g. Apache,
etc.) are written in either C or C++---never in Java. When I
wrote the server for dynamic allocation of IP addresses
(networking), we used C++ for the server itself (for reliability
reasons, mainly---we guaranteed up time), and Java for all of
the interface code around it (mostly beans under WebSphere).
Also, the java app with GUI and networking will run only every
OS that has a JVM. In C++ you have to hunt for libraries,
build them, and there is no guarantee that you will get a
portable product in the end.
And if the code is only supposed to run on one machine, or a
small set of machines? With care, it's possible to write C++
code which ports easily to most Unix machines, and for large
scale servers, that's all you're interested in anyway.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #15

P: n/a
On 20 avr, 02:00, Matthias Buelow <m...@incubus.dewrote:
s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Both of course. Both are important contemporary languages that
a professional programmer ought to have at least some basic
knowledge of.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a
Python programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Any Lisp dialect.
That's actually a good point. If the goal is learning, a
language which gets you out of the OO/procedural mold will
probably teach you a lot more than a language which is, when all
is said and done, pretty similar to the one you already know.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #16

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 8:26 am, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Are you sure you've been programming Python for years now? I believe
that Python is similar and better than Java, and the natural language
that a person would switch to after python is C/C++ (because Python
modules are extended by C).

So, No, you've not been programming Python for years. And you should
stop saying it.

Jun 27 '08 #17

P: n/a
On 20 huhti, 06:29, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
You can malke the class final and make everything static.
I guess that is not the same thing, just doesn't sound good.
Does java even have pointers?
Jun 27 '08 #18

P: n/a
On Apr 20, 11:10 am, "noagbodjivic...@gmail.com"
<noagbodjivic...@gmail.comwrote:
On Apr 19, 8:26 am, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?

Are you sure you've been programming Python for years now? I believe
that Python is similar and better than Java, and the natural language
that a person would switch to after python is C/C++ (because Python
modules are extended by C).

So, No, you've not been programming Python for years. And you should
stop saying it.
Yes, I have.
Jun 27 '08 #19

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 7:26*am, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
To get a good handle on Java, C++ is the best foundation. Java is a
very friendly C++. Yes, sometimes C++ is like oral surgery, but once
you somewhat get it, Java is a cake walk, so to speak.
Jun 27 '08 #20

P: n/a
On 2008-04-20 12:28:55 -0400, Krice <pa****@mbnet.fisaid:
On 20 huhti, 06:29, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
>You can malke the class final and make everything static.

I guess that is not the same thing, just doesn't sound good.
Does java even have pointers?
No, but it has object of type NullPointerException.

--
Pete
Roundhouse Consulting, Ltd. (www.versatilecoding.com) Author of "The
Standard C++ Library Extensions: a Tutorial and Reference
(www.petebecker.com/tr1book)

Jun 27 '08 #21

P: n/a
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:23:58 -0700, "Chris Thomasson"
<cr*****@comcast.netwrote:
>No. However, you can add them if your want:
>fairly simple.
Would compiler be able to optimize this, like JIT compiler? i.e if
the compiler is sure that there won't be array out of bound, the check
is never done?
Jun 27 '08 #22

P: n/a
Razii wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:23:58 -0700, "Chris Thomasson"
<cr*****@comcast.netwrote:
>No. However, you can add them if your want:
>fairly simple.

Would compiler be able to optimize this, like JIT compiler? i.e if
the compiler is sure that there won't be array out of bound, the check
is never done?
Yes.

--
Ian Collins.
Jun 27 '08 #23

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 10:32 pm, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:59 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.nowrote:
* s0s...@gmail.com:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer?
Define "better".
Going to Java will be easier.
Which one will educate me the best?
Define "best".
Cheers, & hth.,
- Alf

Well, I mean "better" and "best" in a very general sense, whichever
sense you want to interpret it on. More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier. Thanks.
I recommend learn C++ and Java all.
If you learn C++ first, you'll find Java is much easier to learn.
C++ is more fun, more educational, as you can handle details.

Java has more full library than C++, such as networking, GUI, web.
But C++'s container and algorithm libraries are more powerful than
Java's.

I'd like to learn Python next. You know why?
C++, Java and Python are Google's favorite languages. :)

Stephen Hsu
Jun 27 '08 #24

P: n/a
On 20 huhti, 23:14, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
Does C++ even have array index out of bounds check?
For programmers that make simple mistakes?
Jun 27 '08 #25

P: n/a
Hi to all,

I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.

I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)

All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

My understanding is that (correct me if I'm wrong ):

- Almost all today's audio technologies/apps (like Cubase, Logic, VST
and Core Audio stuff )
are written in C and C++. For an awesome audio app that is written
mainly in C++ check out
Propellerheads Reason.

- 90% of todays video-game engines are written in C or C++. I'm
totally sure about Unreal Engine.
Plus I've seen source code for Quake and others. Never seen any Java
code for POPULAR GAMES.

- My personal favourite Metal Gear Solid for PS2 had its engine
written in C. I'm sure about MGS2,
cannot be sure about the others, but...

So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

Please PROs enlighten a lost soul... :-)

Regards to all,
Francesco

P.S.
All this said I've to say that some Razii's thread are very
interesting...

Jun 27 '08 #26

P: n/a
xt*********@gmail.com writes:
Hi to all,

I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.

I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)

All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.
Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.
So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.
Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.

[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?
McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmers".
Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Jun 27 '08 #27

P: n/a
On 21 Apr, 11:44, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
xtrigger...@gmail.com writes:
Hi to all,
I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.
I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)
All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.

VST plug-ins were built by sub-classing a C++ class (this a few years
ago,
don't know now)
Core Audio on the Mac is a C framework, with C++ wrappers
Programming on the Mac is mostly Obj-C (these days)

>
So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.

I don't know if an Audio Sequencer is a "real-time" app, for sure has
to complete
all its rendering functions in a given amount of time (forget about
buffering...)
The faster the code is, the better, isnt'it? For example, the amount
of audio plug-ins
that can work "simultaneously" is affected by the "speed" of the code.
If I were able to build Reverbs in Visual Basic I'm pretty sure that I
could run fewer of them at the same time, compared to ones written in
Java, C, C++
or whatever... Giving for granted that "equivalent" Basic interpreted
code
is slower... Is it?

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.
[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

I thought that Java was owned by Sun, while C and C++ are standardized
and
steered by independent committees...

>
Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmers".

So great games and apps are made by forcing sub-intelligent people
to work in ways they do not like and that are proven obsolete?

Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.

I care about what the pros use because it's the only criteria I have
to
choose the tool of the trade. If all the apps, technologies,
literature, examples,etc...
in a certain genre are made in C or C++, why would I choose something
else?

Actually I have fun with C++, probably I would have fun also with Java
or 0Caml. The problem is the TIME i have at my disposal.

Anyway thanks for the answer. One more thing: if you were in charge of
bulilding
the next crushing video-game engine for the PS3, what language would
you choose?

Ciao,
Francesco
Jun 27 '08 #28

P: n/a
On 21 Apr, 11:44, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
xtrigger...@gmail.com writes:
Hi to all,
I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.
I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)
All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.

VST plug-ins were built by sub-classing a C++ class (this a few years
ago,
don't know now)
Core Audio on the Mac is a C framework, with C++ wrappers
Programming on the Mac is mostly Obj-C (these days)

>
So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.

I don't know if an Audio Sequencer is a "real-time" app, for sure has
to complete
all its rendering functions in a given amount of time (forget about
buffering...)
The faster the code is, the better, isnt'it? For example, the amount
of audio plug-ins
that can work "simultaneously" is affected by the "speed" of the code.
If I were able to build Reverbs in Visual Basic I'm pretty sure that I
could run fewer of them at the same time, compared to ones written in
Java, C, C++
or whatever... Giving for granted that "equivalent" Basic interpreted
code
is slower... Is it?

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.
[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

I thought that Java was owned by Sun, while C and C++ are standardized
and
steered by independent committees...

>
Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmers".

So great games and apps are made by forcing sub-intelligent people
to work in ways they do not like and that are proven obsolete?

Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.

I care about what the pros use because it's the only criteria I have
to
choose the tool of the trade. If all the apps, technologies,
literature, examples,etc...
in a certain genre are made in C or C++, why would I choose something
else?

Actually I have fun with C++, probably I would have fun also with Java
or 0Caml. The problem is the TIME i have at my disposal.

Anyway thanks for the answer. One more thing: if you were in charge of
bulilding
the next crushing video-game engine for the PS3, what language would
you choose?

Ciao,
Francesco
Jun 27 '08 #29

P: n/a
Lambda wrote:
C++, Java and Python are Google's favorite languages. :)
Google? Hmm.. rings a bell... Aren't they those Usenet spammers?
Jun 27 '08 #30

P: n/a
As both a python and c++ programmer, I personally would recommend c++
over java. My reasoning for this is simple:

---
If you choose Java...

Pros: You will be adding on the ability to easily create GUI
applications and use a quasi-compiled (into bytecode) language. Java
also has what I believe to be a well-documented library of functions.
It also provides the ability to create webpages easily (or so I
think).

Cons: Java code is compiled into bytecode which is run via a virtual
machine on the computer in question. Python is very similar in this
regard as it requires the python executable to run the files (which,
if i remember the semantics correctly, are also compiled to a form of
bytecode and only recompiled upon changes to the source files). As
far as I can see it, learning Java would do little for your skill
set. Python can already make webpages, python can easily be
integrated into many popular web servers (apache/lighttpd/etc). In
essence, learning Java would simply provide you with another language
that is similar in functionality to python (or at least in my
opinion).

---
Now, if you pick C++:

Pros: You can do...anything. You are limited by your imagination.
Once you learn the fundamental OOP concepts surrounding c++ you'll not
only be able to adapt it to other languages, but you will be able to
learn many other languages quickly. If you learn the basics of c and c
++ you will have the ability to create python modules. Now, while you
can use c++ to extend the java language, you are not asking about
python vs. java, but rather c++ vs. java.

Cons: Slightly longer learning curve. There are a few issues and
tricks that you'll need to get used to.

---

In short, I don't really think the question is 100% fair. Java and c+
+ were designed for slightly different jobs. There are a few jobs
(such as GUI development) that I would rather use Java for, and then
many things I would use c++ over Java. However, I would propose that
your question should be more along the lines of: Python or Java.

Since you already know python, the choice is obvious. Python can also
be made fairly fast if used correctly, especially if you use the pypy
python module/library to create c-versions of your code.

I have been programming both languages for 2-5 years (c++ for 5,
python for 2) and am completely self taught. I can honestly say that
I enjoy learning/working with c++ far more than my limited exposure to
java. And well, I love python, but you already now how useful/awesome
the language is.

---

I understand that I may have missed a few of the key pro's and con's
of the above. I have class in 5minutes so am trying to hurry, but I
do believe that I covered my opinion on the topic to an acceptable
extent.

Hope this helps.
Tony M.
Jun 27 '08 #31

P: n/a
fossilx <fo*****@gmail.comwrites:
As both a python and c++ programmer, I personally would recommend c++
over java. My reasoning for this is simple:

---
If you choose Java...

Pros: You will be adding on the ability to easily create GUI
applications and use a quasi-compiled (into bytecode) language. Java
also has what I believe to be a well-documented library of functions.
It also provides the ability to create webpages easily (or so I
think).

Cons: Java code is compiled into bytecode which is run via a virtual
machine on the computer in question. Python is very similar in this
regard as it requires the python executable to run the files (which,
if i remember the semantics correctly, are also compiled to a form of
bytecode and only recompiled upon changes to the source files). As
far as I can see it, learning Java would do little for your skill
set. Python can already make webpages, python can easily be
integrated into many popular web servers (apache/lighttpd/etc). In
essence, learning Java would simply provide you with another language
that is similar in functionality to python (or at least in my
opinion).
There are java "native" compilers, that is, java compilers that
compile to the Intel virtual machine (the one that is implemented as
microprogram over Intel processors such as Xeons or Pentiums)..

---
Now, if you pick C++:

Pros: You can do...anything. You are limited by your imagination.
Once you learn the fundamental OOP concepts surrounding c++ you'll not
only be able to adapt it to other languages, but you will be able to
learn many other languages quickly. If you learn the basics of c and c
++ you will have the ability to create python modules. Now, while you
can use c++ to extend the java language, you are not asking about
python vs. java, but rather c++ vs. java.

Cons: Slightly longer learning curve. There are a few issues and
tricks that you'll need to get used to.
There are C++ interpreters. Should we care about interpreted
programming language such as C++? </irony>
Now, in C++, you can do anything, as long as you can hold in your head
all the little details you must take into account when programming in
C++, like memory management. If you have a little head like me, you
may prefer a higher level programming language.
The choice of a programming language should not (only) be directed by
the kind of processor it runs on. It's rather easy to port a
programming language on another target processor, be it a virtual
machine, an interpreter or a compiler.

In short, I don't really think the question is 100% fair. Java and c+
+ were designed for slightly different jobs. There are a few jobs
(such as GUI development) that I would rather use Java for, and then
many things I would use c++ over Java. However, I would propose that
your question should be more along the lines of: Python or Java.
[...]
Right. The niche for C++ is very small.

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Jun 27 '08 #32

P: n/a
fossilx wrote:
Pros: You will be adding on the ability to easily create GUI
applications
Hmm.. I think I prefer wxWidgets over Swing...
Jun 27 '08 #33

P: n/a
On 2008-04-21 11:44, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
xt*********@gmail.com writes:
>[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmers".
By that reasoning shouldn't most games these days be written in Java, as
far as I know that is what most monkeys^W programmers are thought these
days.

--
Erik Wikström
Jun 27 '08 #34

P: n/a
On Apr 21, 10:35 am, xtrigger...@gmail.com wrote:
I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.
I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps
just for fun, mainly for my electronic music productions(
always just for fun, no talent at all, sigh... ;-)
All the statements made in recent threads make me think that
all the hours spent in learning how to program in C and C++
were useless.
So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or
whatever else supporters: How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in
"real-time" fields like audio, video or video-games are made
in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones I'm mostly interested in and because
I would think they're the ones where speed is of great
importance.
My understanding is that (correct me if I'm wrong ):
- Almost all today's audio technologies/apps (like Cubase, Logic, VST
and Core Audio stuff )
are written in C and C++. For an awesome audio app that is written
mainly in C++ check out
Propellerheads Reason.
I couldn't say, since I don't work in the field.
- 90% of todays video-game engines are written in C or C++. I'm
totally sure about Unreal Engine.
Plus I've seen source code for Quake and others. Never seen any Java
code for POPULAR GAMES.
- My personal favourite Metal Gear Solid for PS2 had its engine
written in C. I'm sure about MGS2,
cannot be sure about the others, but...
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or
0Caml ( or whatever )
But it can't. I don't know about OCaml, but most things can be
done more productively in C++ than in Java.
and the final result should be even faster (??) than the C or
C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the above mentioned genres are
still using obsolete languages?
C++ is hardly an obsolete language; in many ways, it's more up
to date than Java.

[...]
All this said I've to say that some Razii's thread are very
interesting...
If you like a lot of noise and no real information...

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #35

P: n/a
On Apr 21, 5:10 pm, p...@informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:
fossilx <foss...@gmail.comwrites:
[...]
Now, in C++, you can do anything, as long as you can hold in
your head all the little details you must take into account
when programming in C++, like memory management. If you have
a little head like me, you may prefer a higher level
programming language.
The whole point of C++ is that you don't have to. You can
adjust the level of abstaction to what is needed, rather than be
forced to use one which isn't appropriate. Thus, for example,
there's no problem using garbage collection with C++ (although
it's not as essential as it is in Java; some C++ applications
manage to get the job done with no dynamic allocation
whatsoever).
The choice of a programming language should not (only) be
directed by the kind of processor it runs on. It's rather
easy to port a programming language on another target
processor, be it a virtual machine, an interpreter or a
compiler.
In short, I don't really think the question is 100% fair.
Java and C++ were designed for slightly different jobs.
There are a few jobs (such as GUI development) that I would
rather use Java for, and then many things I would use c++
over Java. However, I would propose that your question
should be more along the lines of: Python or Java. [...]
Right. The niche for C++ is very small.
You mean like everything from OS kernel code to large scale
application servers. Unlike Java, C++ is a general purpose
language, and can be used effectively for pretty much anything.
Java's specialized for a few specific application areas---it's
not really that bad, and it could actually be used for more
things that it is, but it still doesn't cover the broad range
that C++ does.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #36

P: n/a
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
>All this said I've to say that some Razii's thread are very
interesting...
First of all, I never claimed to be a java "programmer". I am here for
fun.
>If you like a lot of noise and no real information...
Well, this was not my thread...

As for the OP, he knows that the answer would depend on the newsgroup.
He got almost the opposite answers to this question in java group.

As for where Java dominates, one of the most significant uses of Java
is for Server Side web programming, Servlets, JSP and EJB.

A surveye (BZ Research) on which languages people were using for AJAX
development had some interesting results. Java was the number one
language (50.5%). C# was second with 40.5%. C and C++ (combined) made
up 10.6%. See the graph
(http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2...x_develop.html
)

Embedded devices Cell phones, PDAs and set-top boxes.

Mobile Information Devices Profile (MIDP) uses Java run time
environment in cell phones, mobile tracking systems and other
traditional PDA devices. Java enabled application is key to the games
and services available in the mobile world. Designed for cell phones,
the Mobile Information Device Profile boasts GUI API, and MIDP 2.0
includes a basic 2D gaming API. Applications written for this profile
are called MIDlets. Almost all new cell phones come with a MIDP
implementation, and it is now the de facto standard for downloadable
cell phone games.

GOOGLE is introducing a custom version of its Gmail email service that
can run on any phone with Java software.

Database:
Java is used in database programming with JDBC. Oracle embed Java
virtual machines into the heart of their Database systems.
Jun 27 '08 #37

P: n/a
"Razii" <wh**********@hotmail.comwrote in message
news:p9********************************@4ax.com...
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
[...]
As for where Java dominates, one of the most significant uses of Java
is for Server Side web programming, Servlets, JSP and EJB.

A surveye (BZ Research) on which languages people were using for AJAX
development had some interesting results. Java was the number one
language (50.5%). C# was second with 40.5%. C and C++ (combined) made
up 10.6%. See the graph
(http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2...x_develop.html
)
[...]

What are the most popular language(s) used to create high-performance JVM's?

Jun 27 '08 #38

P: n/a
"Chris Thomasson" <cr*****@comcast.netwrote in message
news:kb******************************@comcast.com. ..
"Razii" <wh**********@hotmail.comwrote in message
news:p9********************************@4ax.com...
>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
[...]
>As for where Java dominates, one of the most significant uses of Java
is for Server Side web programming, Servlets, JSP and EJB.

A surveye (BZ Research) on which languages people were using for AJAX
development had some interesting results. Java was the number one
language (50.5%). C# was second with 40.5%. C and C++ (combined) made
up 10.6%. See the graph
(http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2...x_develop.html
)
[...]

What are the most popular language(s) used to create high-performance
JVM's?
This definitely does _not_ prove anything at all, but it appears that SUN
uses C for their VM.

Jun 27 '08 #39

P: n/a
On Apr 21, 8:45 pm, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<james.ka...@gmail.comwrote:
As for where Java dominates, one of the most significant uses
of Java is for Server Side web programming, Servlets, JSP and
EJB.
Definitly. First, of course, it's what the various frameworks
(Apache, BEA, WebSphere, etc.) support directly---there's
nothing like good environment support to make a language look
good. But such applications also usually conform to the type of
thing Java is good at: each program is small (so programming in
the large issues aren't relevant), the programs tend to be very
dynamic, written quickly, and not maintained for any long period
of time, and reliability isn't the first criteria---the programs
themselves don't manage any of the critical corporate data.

Generally, I tend to use Java when the program isn't managing
data, but presenting it. I've yet to find an equivalent of
Swing in C++, and of course, Java's libraries have a lot of
classes designed to integrate the program into a web
environment, and to facilitate communication with the programs
which actually manage the data. While our servers are 100% C++,
the monitor programs which display their various states are in
Java: a GUI, communicating with about 10 different servers,
displaying the links between them, and their states, but not
providing any critical functionality. The servers, on the other
hand, are not allowed to fail, and must ensure transactional
integrity of the data. So they're written in C++. (They're
still small enough that the program size issue probably wouldn't
exclude Java, but I've worked on much larger servers where it
would also have played a role.)
Embedded devices Cell phones, PDAs and set-top boxes.
Most cell phones run Symbian, I believe. Which is written in
C++, and provides the system API in C++. And typically, the
critical functionality (call handling, handover, etc.) will be
written in C++. Java is used for the games, and the flashy
interface.

Most real applications consist of more than one "program", and
will contain code written in several different languages.
Mobile Information Devices Profile (MIDP) uses Java run time
environment in cell phones, mobile tracking systems and other
traditional PDA devices. Java enabled application is key to the games
and services available in the mobile world. Designed for cell phones,
the Mobile Information Device Profile boasts GUI API, and MIDP 2.0
includes a basic 2D gaming API. Applications written for this profile
are called MIDlets. Almost all new cell phones come with a MIDP
implementation, and it is now the de facto standard for downloadable
cell phone games.
Exactly. For cell phone *games*. The critical functionality
isn't written in Java. And almost nothing in the cells
themselves will be written in Java (at least not here in
Europe).
GOOGLE is introducing a custom version of its Gmail email
service that can run on any phone with Java software.
Database:
Java is used in database programming with JDBC. Oracle embed
Java virtual machines into the heart of their Database
systems.
No. Java interfaces with the databases using JDBC. The actual
"language" involved is SQL (and that works just as well in
C++---unlike the case with GUIs, some of the C++ libraries for
interfacing with databases are actually pretty good, where as
JDBC is rather ordinary). The database itself is almost
certainly not written in Java.

Again: Java provides the flashy but non-critical front end, and
the parts which have to work are written in C++ (or, in the case
data bases, for historical reasons, still largely in C).

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #40

P: n/a
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
>Most cell phones run Symbian, I believe. Which is written in
C++, and provides the system API in C++.
Symbian is an operating system. The native language is C++ which is
used for device drivers and other core components. Symbian C++
programming has a steep learning curve. Symbian cell phones support
JavaME and HotSpot JIT compiler is included.

This is a good example: if someone writes an app (let's say a game)
in C++ specifically targeting Symbian phone, the only advantage
probably would be speed (given direct access to native API). On the
other hand, JaveME app would run on multiple different phones (it will
run on all phones that support JavaME -- Symbian included). Overall,
more devices out there support JavaME (given Symbian itself supports
JavaMe).

Also, it is easier to write cell phone app with JavaME, as they can be
emulated on a PC during the development stage and easily uploaded to
phones. This contrasts with the difficulty of developing, testing, and
loading games for special mobile platforms in C++.

Also, as I said: (1) Google Maps on mobile devices lets you find local
hangouts and businesses (uses JavaME). (2) Gmail on cell phones (uses
JavaME).

Jun 27 '08 #41

P: n/a
On Apr 19, 3:26*pm, s0s...@gmail.com wrote:
I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?
Think of any programming language as just a tool. When building a
house for example, you first define a job (building the house) and
then you choose a set of tools to do this job. This set of tools may
be useless (fully or partially) for fixing your car, for example. The
same logic can be applied here.

When you need to build a server with garanteed fast response time,
that can handle a large amount of the connections you probably would
choose C++.
However, if you want to manage this server and need to build a nice
GUI in short time you will probably chose Java.

If you want to find a better job,for example, then you might want to
consider non-technical aspects, such as salary of Java programmer vs C+
+ programmer (or may be amount of job offers).

If you have an academic interest, C++ would be better choice (IMHO),
since it has a larger application domain and supports some
interesting concepts (like generic programming)

HTH,
Yakov
Jun 27 '08 #42

P: n/a
"Chris Thomasson" <cr*****@comcast.netwrites:
"Chris Thomasson" <cr*****@comcast.netwrote in message
news:kb******************************@comcast.com. ..
>"Razii" <wh**********@hotmail.comwrote in message
news:p9********************************@4ax.com.. .
>>On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
[...]
>>As for where Java dominates, one of the most significant uses of Java
is for Server Side web programming, Servlets, JSP and EJB.

A surveye (BZ Research) on which languages people were using for AJAX
development had some interesting results. Java was the number one
language (50.5%). C# was second with 40.5%. C and C++ (combined) made
up 10.6%. See the graph
(http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2...x_develop.html
)
[...]

What are the most popular language(s) used to create
high-performance JVM's?

This definitely does _not_ prove anything at all, but it appears that
SUN uses C for their VM.
Yes, it proves something important: C is the best portable assembler
in the world.

Now, who wants to write an application in assembler, or assembler++?

--
__Pascal Bourguignon__
Jun 27 '08 #43

P: n/a
On Apr 22, 12:40 pm, Razii <whatever1...@hotmail.comwrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:07:37 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<james.ka...@gmail.comwrote:
Most cell phones run Symbian, I believe. Which is written in
C++, and provides the system API in C++.
Symbian is an operating system. The native language is C++
which is used for device drivers and other core components.
Symbian C++ programming has a steep learning curve. Symbian
cell phones support JavaME and HotSpot JIT compiler is
included.
This is a good example: if someone writes an app (let's say a
game) in C++ specifically targeting Symbian phone,
And your point is? Non critical components, like games, can be
written in Java, as long as they aren't too big. The critical
parts (the OS itself, but also the call handling, etc.) are
written in C++.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:ja*********@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Jun 27 '08 #44

P: n/a
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:36:18 -0700 (PDT), James Kanze
<ja*********@gmail.comwrote:
>Non critical components, like games, can be
written in Java,
That's your opinion not shared by everyone.

http://www.aonix.com/real_time_java.html

"Aonix PERC technologies are used in network infrastructure,
telematics, avionics, space, military, industrial automation, and
office automation applications with millions of lines of code and
"5-9's" reliability, proving that real-time Java is not just a nice
idea, but practical and successful reality for a rapidly growing
audience. "
"Java Community introduced a specification for real-time Java, JSR001.
As of 2006, a number of implementations of the resulting Real-Time
Specification for Java (RTSJ) have emerged, including a reference
implementation from Timesys, and Sun Microsystems's Java SE Real-Time
System." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_time_Java
http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2008-...20080414.3.xml

"The Eglin Space Surveillance Radar (FPS-85), which schedules and
tracks catalogued space objects, is currently undergoing a complex
modernization process to replace legacy mission-critical components
built from one-of-a-kind equipment and custom software. The Sun Java
Real-Time System, a high-level development platform for creating
applications that require unprecedented execution predictability, will
enable ITT to run the new solution using Java technology on Solaris 10
OS and standard hardware"
Jun 27 '08 #45

P: n/a
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:14:48 -0500, Razii <wh**********@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>"Java Community introduced a specification for real-time Java, JSR001.
As of 2006, a number of implementations of the resulting Real-Time
Specification for Java (RTSJ) have emerged, including a reference
implementation from Timesys, and Sun Microsystems's Java SE Real-Time
System." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_time_Java
(real-time Java specification)
https://rtsj.dev.java.net/rtsj-V1.0.pdf )

What's new in Java RTS?

Direct memory access. Java RTS allows direct access to physical
memory, making it similar to J2ME. No surprise there: one of the main
target platforms of real-time Java is embedded systems. This means
that now you can create device drivers written in pure Java. Although
memory access is not directly a real-time issue, physical memory
access is desirable for many applications. Java RTS defines a new
class that allows programmers byte-level access to physical memory, as
well as a class that allows the construction of objects in physical
memory. One might think that physical memory access is the point where
Java gives up its main principles--reliability and safety--and takes a
step back towards C, but this isn't the case. Java maintains strong
security protections by controlling memory bounds and data contents.

Real-time threads. As mentioned previously, Java RTS supports two new
thread models: real-time threads (javax.realtime.RealtimeThread) and
no-heap real-time threads (javax.realtime.NoHeapRealtimeThread). Both
thread types cannot be interrupted by garbage collection. These thread
classes have 28 levels of priority and, unlike standard Java, their
priority is strictly enforced. Real-time threads are synchronized and
are not subject to so-called "priority inversion" situations where a
lower priority thread has a block on a resource needed by a higher
priority thread and thus prevents the higher priority thread from
running. Thorough testing has proven that Java RTS completely avoids
any priority inversions, which is crucial for mission-critical
applications.

Memory management. There are two new types of memory areas that help
prevent unpredictable delays commonly caused by traditional garbage
collectors in real-time applications: immortal memory and scoped
memory. Immortal memory holds objects without destroying them, except
when the program ends. This means that objects created in immortal
memory must be carefully allocated and managed, as with C programs.
Scoped memory is used only while a process works within a particular
section, or scope, of the program (such as in a method). Objects are
automatically destroyed when the process leaves the scope. Neither
immortal nor scoped memories are garbage collected, so using them
avoids problems of GC interference. The Java RTS also provides limited
support for providing memory allocation budgets for threads using
memory areas. Maximum memory area consumption and maximum allocation
rates for individual real-time threads may be specified when the
thread is created.

Asynchronous communications. Java RTS provides two forms of
asynchronous communication: asynchronous event handling, and
asynchronous transfer of control. Asynchronous event handling means
the developer can now schedule the response to events coming from
outside the JVM. Asynchronous transfer of control provides a carefully
controlled way for one thread to interrupt another thread in a safe
manner.

High-resolution timing. There are several ways of specifying
high-resolution time including absolute and relative time. A
nanosecond accuracy is available for time scheduling and measurements.

Jun 27 '08 #46

P: n/a
Razii wrote:
What's new in Java RTS?
This is a C++ newsgroup; if people wanted to read java marketing stuff,
they'd do it on c.l.java.advocacy (if such exists).
Jun 27 '08 #47

P: n/a
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:24:14 +0200, Matthias Buelow <mk*@incubus.de>
wrote:
>This is a C++ newsgroup; if people wanted to read java marketing stuff,
they'd do it on c.l.java.advocacy (if such exists).
What's the topic of this thread? If you have a problem with the topic,
right click on the thread and click on ignore. Whining like a 4-year
old won't help you.

Jun 27 '08 #48

P: n/a
Razii wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:24:14 +0200, Matthias Buelow <mk*@incubus.de>
wrote:
>This is a C++ newsgroup; if people wanted to read java marketing
stuff, they'd do it on c.l.java.advocacy (if such exists).

What's the topic of this thread? If you have a problem with the topic,
right click on the thread and click on ignore. Whining like a 4-year
old won't help you.
It would probably be better for you to refrain from telling people
what to do. Java marketting stuff is off-topic in a C++ newsgroup,
and pointing it out is the right of any reader here. Take your
Java marketting stuff elsewhere, please.

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
Jun 27 '08 #49

P: n/a
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:36:42 -0400, "Victor Bazarov"
<v.********@comAcast.netwrote:
>It would probably be better for you to refrain from telling people
what to do.
It would be far better if you learn to use filters. The thread was no
started by me, and even though I tried to ignore the thread, just a
random click on a post, and I saw my name mentioned. As usual, Kanze
was posting his typical anti-Java stuff as he is well known for this,
and has been doing for years. I responded to his post. Why didn't you
complain about pro-c++ propaganda posted in the thread by several
people? In any case, it's pretty clear from the subject what the
thread is about. What exactly are you whining about? Right click on
the thread and click on ignore.
Jun 27 '08 #50

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