editor, is C obsolete?, and thank you

[koolj96825]

1) Thank you. Thanks to this news group in which I read a post
earlier today about making variables static in certain cases, I
believe I avoided future debugging headaches. It reminded me of a
place in my code where I did that. Thank you!

2) Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I program on the hobby level,
but I am working on a project now and so I am coding again, however,
it is like being revived from a deep sleep for me. Put it to you this
way, my login at the cprogramming.com website is gone, I haven't
logged on for a couple of years. So forgive me if this question
sounds weird or out of place, I am merely out of touch. Is C no longer
a mainstream language? I ask my brother in-law for help sometimes
when I get stuck, but he keeps talking about C++. I've talked to
several co-workers about helping out (a little team work would be
nice), but they talk about visual basic or fortran and look at me
funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

I am reminded of that Austin Powers movie where they revive the main
character from the freezer after many years asleep.

This has no bearing on my project, I am just curious as to my
obsolecense. Is C obsolete?

3) I really like the simple editor "gedit" that comes with Ubuntu
Linux. Is there a version for windows? Okay, I know what you linux
folks are about to say, "run the compiler in wine," Right? I guess I
could do that. Testing my windows program would probably be better
done in windows though. Is there something similar for windows?

[Richard Heathfield]

ko********@yahoo.com said:

Is C no longer a mainstream language?

C remains a mainstream language.

I ask my brother in-law for help sometimes
when I get stuck, but he keeps talking about C++.

Er, so what?

I've talked to
several co-workers about helping out (a little team work would be
nice), but they talk about visual basic or fortran and look at me
funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?

<snip>

[...] Is C obsolete?

No.

3) I really like the simple editor "gedit" that comes with Ubuntu
Linux. Is there a version for windows? Okay, I know what you linux
folks are about to say, "run the compiler in wine," Right?

Wrong. We're about to say "ask such questions in a newsgroup where they
are topical".

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.

[santosh]

ko********@yahoo.com wrote:

<snip>

Is C no longer a mainstream language?

No. It's still used in a wide variety of domains.

<snip>

I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

Try not to get involved in language wars. Each major language has it's
purpose and applicability and deriding languages other than your
favourite one, makes you appear an emotional person.

<snip>

This has no bearing on my project, I am just curious as to my
obsolecense. Is C obsolete?

Far from it. It's one of the few languages that have survived in
mainstream for multiple decades.

3) I really like the simple editor "gedit" that comes with Ubuntu
Linux. Is there a version for windows? Okay, I know what you linux
folks are about to say, "run the compiler in wine," Right? I guess I
could do that. Testing my windows program would probably be better
done in windows though. Is there something similar for windows?

<OT>

Your plight highlights the result of learning a single-platform
editor. I recommend that you learn either vi, (my preference), or
Emacs. They'll most likely be available on every platform you'll
happen to use.

</OT>

[jaysome]

On 6 Mar 2007 23:48:57 -0800, ko********@yahoo.com wrote:

[snip]

>3) I really like the simple editor "gedit" that comes with Ubuntu
Linux. Is there a version for windows? Okay, I know what you linux
folks are about to say, "run the compiler in wine," Right? I guess I
could do that. Testing my windows program would probably be better
done in windows though. Is there something similar for windows?

Yes, and it's free:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/

BTW, I also like gedit that comes with Ubuntu. The syntax coloring is
great.

--
jay

http://www.ubuntu.com/

[koolj96825]

funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them

those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?

Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

[Clever Monkey]

ko********@yahoo.com wrote:

>>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?

Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

Why not say you want to build your C chops because then you aren't
limited to a single platform or implementation.

[Malcolm McLean]

<ko********@yahoo.comwrote in message

>
This has no bearing on my project, I am just curious as to my
obsolecense. Is C obsolete?

Good question. It will have a niche in small embedded programs for some time
to come. But will it continue to be used for applications development on
desktop systems and above?

I think it will. It is such a good abstraction of a von Neumann machine
that, if you have any sort of algorithm, a C implementation is natural. With
other languages you fiddle to get the algorithm to work with the rest of the
system. It is also very efficient.

[August Karlstrom]

Malcolm McLean skrev:

<ko********@yahoo.comwrote in message

>>
This has no bearing on my project, I am just curious as to my
obsolecense. Is C obsolete?

Good question. It will have a niche in small embedded programs for some
time to come. But will it continue to be used for applications
development on desktop systems and above?

I think it will. It is such a good abstraction of a von Neumann machine
that, if you have any sort of algorithm, a C implementation is natural.
With other languages you fiddle to get the algorithm to work with the
rest of the system.

Example please. I don't see why it would be less natural in some other
procedural language.

It is also very efficient.

(...and quite dangerous.)
August

[Malcolm McLean]

"August Karlstrom" <fu********@comhem.sewrote in message

>I think it will. It is such a good abstraction of a von Neumann machine
that, if you have any sort of algorithm, a C implementation is natural.
With other languages you fiddle to get the algorithm to work with the
rest of the system.

Example please. I don't see why it would be less natural in some other
procedural language.

Let's try to write an expression parser in Fortran 77.

No recursion. So every function has to be data recursive, and the job is
terrible. If you go to newer Fortrans the parallel compilers won't handle
it.

OK, java.

The obvious C form is

double parse( char *expression, char **err )

In java you throw exceptions to indicate error conditions.
So now we've got a horrible job documenting not only our parser, but also
the exception object it throws. The parse cannot be a function, it has to be
a method of an object. Make it a static method and you've broken the
object-oriented paradigm. Create a "Parser" object and you've got something
artificial.

Then you will find that the internals of the function become very messy. You
need some sort of tokenizer function. The neophyte might be tempted by the
StringTokenizer - in fact it is very hard to get it to do what you want.
Since there are no pointers, the current parse position has to be stored in
an integer, which adds complexity to every token translation routine.

It is possible to write an expression parser in Java, of course, and it is
even possible to make a good job of it. However you need a certain amount of
experience - it's not the language of choice for developing parser
technology in, or for learning how to implement a parser.

[Randy Howard]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:26:34 -0500, ko********@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <11**********************@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups .com>):

>>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?

Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

In what language?
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

[Keith Thompson]

Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.netwrites:

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:26:34 -0500, ko********@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <11**********************@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups .com>):

>>>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?

Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

In what language?

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <* <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

[Richard Heathfield]

Keith Thompson said:

Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.netwrites:

>On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:26:34 -0500, ko********@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <11**********************@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups .com>):

>>>>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell
them those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have
pointers it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?
Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

In what language?

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

I'm familiar with the term, but curious to know why you think that, in
English, it's slang for lying. I'm English, and I have used the English
language for what I consider to be many decades. I speak it like a
native and, if truth be told, a great deal better than a great many
natives. Yet I have never, ever heard the term used to convey the same
meaning that "lying" does. As far as I can tell, I've never *seen* it
used in that way either.

I don't think anyone here (at least, no true clc-er!) would disagree
that, say, "C - The Complete Reference" is a great big steaming pile.
But has anyone ever contended that Mr S deliberately set out to deceive
his readership? I don't think so.

In my experience, the term is used to describe the outpourings of
someone who thinks or pretends that he knows what he's talking about
when in fact he does not. In the latter case (pretending) the
distinction between it and lying is a fine one. He may know that what
he's saying is not true (in which case the term "lying" may *also*
legitimately be applied to what he's saying), or he may not (in which
case it may not).

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.

[Keith Thompson]

Richard Heathfield <rj*@see.sig.invalidwrites:

Keith Thompson said:

>Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.netwrites:

>>On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:26:34 -0500, ko********@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <11**********************@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups .com>):
>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell
>them those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have
>pointers it sucks.
>
What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?
>

Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

In what language?

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

I'm familiar with the term, but curious to know why you think that, in
English, it's slang for lying. I'm English, and I have used the English
language for what I consider to be many decades. I speak it like a
native and, if truth be told, a great deal better than a great many
natives. Yet I have never, ever heard the term used to convey the same
meaning that "lying" does. As far as I can tell, I've never *seen* it
used in that way either.

I don't think anyone here (at least, no true clc-er!) would disagree
that, say, "C - The Complete Reference" is a great big steaming pile.
But has anyone ever contended that Mr S deliberately set out to deceive
his readership? I don't think so.

Now that I think about it, BS (or the word it expands to) when used as
a noun implies falsehood, possibly not deliberate; when used as a
verb, as in the previous poster's:

I BS them and tell them those languages don't have pointers and
that if it don't have pointers it sucks.

it carries (to me) an implication of deliberate deceipt.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <* <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

[Richard Heathfield]

Keith Thompson said:

<snip>

Now that I think about it, BS (or the word it expands to) when used as
a noun implies falsehood, possibly not deliberate; when used as a
verb, as in the previous poster's:

I BS them and tell them those languages don't have pointers and
that if it don't have pointers it sucks.

it carries (to me) an implication of deliberate deceipt.

I think you're right that this was the intended meaning in this case,
but that therefore the OP's usage of the term was simply incorrect. He
thought he knew what it meant but he didn't. In short, he was... well,
let's move on, shall we?

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.

[Bob Martin]

in 725160 20070319 050719 Richard Heathfield <rj*@see.sig.invalidwrote:

>Keith Thompson said:

<snip>

>Now that I think about it, BS (or the word it expands to) when used as
a noun implies falsehood, possibly not deliberate; when used as a
verb, as in the previous poster's:

I BS them and tell them those languages don't have pointers and
that if it don't have pointers it sucks.

it carries (to me) an implication of deliberate deceipt.

I think you're right that this was the intended meaning in this case,
but that therefore the OP's usage of the term was simply incorrect. He
thought he knew what it meant but he didn't. In short, he was... well,
let's move on, shall we?

You two are off-topic again. Is it only OK when you do it?

[Richard Heathfield]

Bob Martin said:

<snip>

>
You two are off-topic again.

Aye. It's called "topic drift", and it happens sometimes. You yourself
have taken part in such discussions.

Is it only OK when you do it?

I won't bother replying on my own account, but you mention "you two",
and I presume you're referring to Keith.

Most of Keith's posts are topical and all are worth reading. He has been
contributing high quality C advice to comp.lang.c for many years. Let's
take a look at your record, shall we? Google Groups says:

Articles by Bob Martin (bo********@excite.com) in comp.lang.c: 35
First article: 27th April 2006
Articles having no genuine connection to C programming: 32
Topicality rating: less than 9%

When you are *better* than Keith at staying on topic, *then* I might
take your criticism of his off-topic articles seriously.

Until then, you're in no position to throw stones.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.

[Bob Martin]

in 725171 20070319 083854 Richard Heathfield <rj*@see.sig.invalidwrote:

>Bob Martin said:

<snip>

>>
You two are off-topic again.

Aye. It's called "topic drift", and it happens sometimes. You yourself
have taken part in such discussions.

>Is it only OK when you do it?

I won't bother replying on my own account, but you mention "you two",
and I presume you're referring to Keith.

Most of Keith's posts are topical and all are worth reading. He has been
contributing high quality C advice to comp.lang.c for many years. Let's
take a look at your record, shall we? Google Groups says:

Articles by Bob Martin (bo********@excite.com) in comp.lang.c: 35
First article: 27th April 2006
Articles having no genuine connection to C programming: 32
Topicality rating: less than 9%

When you are *better* than Keith at staying on topic, *then* I might
take your criticism of his off-topic articles seriously.

Until then, you're in no position to throw stones.

You are missing the point that you are the main offenders at jumping all over anyone
whom you perceive to be off-topic - even mentioning c++ has attracted your ire.
I have never done that.

[Doug]

On 19 Mar, 05:07, Richard Heathfield <[e-mail]:

Keith Thompson said:

<snip>

Now that I think about it, BS (or the word it expands to) when used as
a noun implies falsehood, possibly not deliberate; when used as a
verb, as in the previous poster's:

I BS them and tell them those languages don't have pointers and
that if it don't have pointers it sucks.

it carries (to me) an implication of deliberate deceipt.

I think you're right that this was the intended meaning in this case,
but that therefore the OP's usage of the term was simply incorrect. He
thought he knew what it meant but he didn't. In short, he was... well,
let's move on, shall we?

I think the OP's usage was fine - very common usage amongst my age
group, anyway. As you say, it means to deliberately mislead someone.

As in:

"Oh, man, your sister was excellent last night."

"You're bullshitting me, right?"

Doug

[Richard Heathfield]

Bob Martin said:

<snip>

You are missing the point that you are the main offenders at jumping
all over anyone whom you perceive to be off-topic

You think so? I don't.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at the above domain, - www.

[Mark McIntyre]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:38 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Bob Martin
<bo********@excite.comwrote:

>You are missing the point that you are the main offenders at jumping all over anyone
whom you perceive to be off-topic - even mentioning c++ has attracted your ire.
I have never done that.

I don't think he was missing the point actually, I think you may be
though.
In CLC, one builds up 'credit' as it were, by posting topically and
usefully. Newbies start at zero, and a single offtopic posting is
likely to get commented on (as much as anything this is important so
that they *know* its not topical), while multiple ot posts will result
in flames. OTOH, posters with a decade of productive posting history
get cut more slack. Signal-to-noise ratio is important.
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <69********************************@4ax.com>,
Mark McIntyre <ma**********@spamcop.netwrote:

>On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:10:38 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Bob Martin
<bo********@excite.comwrote:

>>You are missing the point that you are the main offenders at jumping
all over anyone whom you perceive to be off-topic - even mentioning
c++ has attracted your ire. I have never done that.

I don't think he was missing the point actually, I think you may be
though.
In CLC, one builds up 'credit' as it were, by posting topically and

C&V, please.

[Old Wolf]

On Mar 19, 4:00 pm, Richard Heathfield <[e-mail]:

Keith Thompson said:

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

Is anyone still offended by 'shit' ? They say it on the six o'clock
news now.

I'm familiar with the term, but curious to know why you think that, in
English, it's slang for lying. I'm English, and I have used the English
language for what I consider to be many decades.

In my area, the verb form almost always means that the actor is
lying. "He's bullshitting" is an accusation that the speaker is
intentionally telling untruths.

However, the noun has many uses: lies, untruths which were not
intentional, and in fact anything that the speaker disagrees
with (e.g. "DRM is bullshit").

[Richard Tobin]

In article <et**********@news.xmission.com>,
Kenny McCormack <ga*****@xmission.xmission.comwrote:

>>In CLC, one builds up 'credit' as it were, by posting topically and

>C&V, please.

Now *that* was funny.

-- Richard

--
"Consideration shall be given to the need for as many as 32 characters
in some alphabets" - X3.4, 1963.

[CBFalconer]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Bob Martin said:

<snip>

>You are missing the point that you are the main offenders at
jumping all over anyone whom you perceive to be off-topic

You think so? I don't.

He already successfully achieved access to my bozo bin.

--
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt>
<http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423>

"A man who is right every time is not likely to do very much."
-- Francis Crick, co-discover of DNA
"There is nothing more amazing than stupidity in action."
-- Thomas Matthews

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Mark McIntyre]

On 19 Mar 2007 17:55:32 -0700, in comp.lang.c , "Old Wolf"
<ol*****@inspire.net.nzwrote:

>On Mar 19, 4:00 pm, Richard Heathfield <[e-mail]:

>Keith Thompson said:

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

Is anyone still offended by 'shit' ? They say it on the six o'clock
news now.

Not in the UK. You can still get fired for saying rude words on tv
before 9pm. Euphemisms for faeces included. On radio, funnily enough,
you can get away with murder...

--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

[Randy Howard]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 20:29:19 -0500, Keith Thompson wrote
(in article <ln************@nuthaus.mib.org>):

Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.netwrites:

>On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 10:26:34 -0500, ko********@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <11**********************@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups .com>):

>>>>funny when I say I program for Windows in C. I BS them and tell them
those languages don't have pointers and that if it don't have pointers
it sucks.

What is it about pointers that makes you believe their lack makes a
language "suck"?
Nothing. BS is a slang for lying.

In what language?

English. The B stands for "bull", and the S stands for a word
synonymous with feces. Are you unfamiliar with the term?

Substitute it above with your "synonym" and I see:

"I lying them and tell them...."

Doesn't look like English to me.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw