learning Modern C++

[arnuld]

hai all,

i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:

--Problem-- as you folks know that i want to learn Modern C++ & in my
country "C++ Primer" 4/e & "Accelerated C++" are not available & being
a jobless person i dont have money to order anything from abroad. i
have these books on my shelf:

1.) "Thinking in C++" 2/e
2.) "C++ Primer" 3/e
3.) "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup
4.) An illegal version of "C++ Primer" 4/e as a .chm file on my
Desktop.

i have these 5 options:

1.) read "C++ Primer 4/e" online: cant be done. with online copies
productivity goes down to 20%. reading "physically" really makes the
difference in understanding & learning the language.

2.) i took print-outs of 2-3-4 chapters of C++ Primer 4/e & read them &
found them excellent, though i took a while to understand. it has 800
pages, for me, it means 1000 pages of print outs from my EPSON
dot-matrix in 8 separate folders. it will be very difficult to learn
this way & what if i want to search for some phrase/ideas in C++, i am
"gone" in this case. i speak from experience, i tried this with
"Practical Common Lisp" & trust me, it was huge time wastage with much
less productivity & output (well, that is why Stroustrup created C++
:-)

3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

4.) read "C++ Primer" 3/e: utterly incomprehensible to me.

4.) Learn C first -OOA & D book -C++. an excellent way to confuse
myself as i have found that learning "vectors, strings, new-delete"
1st, makes learning "C character arrays & free-malloc" much easier.
(while the opposite is not true, i tried it 2 months ago)

5.) Go directly with Stroustrup: +ve point is i will learn "Pure C++",
-ve point is i dont have any real-life coding experience, hence i found
it *too* dense & 50% of the times i did not understand what exactly he
was talink about. (but i do know what are variables, functions &
classes + strings, vectors, new delete from C++)

from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

thanks for your time

- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogapot.com

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* arnuld:

>
from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

Go for Stroustrup. That's the book I used (but then I had background
from C, and also, it was the first edition, which was a very slim book
compared to later ones aimed at US market where books are sold by
weight). Just read it /slowly/, like each page is one chapter, and
don't forget, try out things on your computer, e.g. /for each page/!

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Joseph Paterson]

arnuld wrote:

hai all,

i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:

--Problem-- as you folks know that i want to learn Modern C++ & in my
country "C++ Primer" 4/e & "Accelerated C++" are not available & being
a jobless person i dont have money to order anything from abroad. i
have these books on my shelf:

1.) "Thinking in C++" 2/e
2.) "C++ Primer" 3/e
3.) "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup
4.) An illegal version of "C++ Primer" 4/e as a .chm file on my
Desktop.

i have these 5 options:

1.) read "C++ Primer 4/e" online: cant be done. with online copies
productivity goes down to 20%. reading "physically" really makes the
difference in understanding & learning the language.

2.) i took print-outs of 2-3-4 chapters of C++ Primer 4/e & read them &
found them excellent, though i took a while to understand. it has 800
pages, for me, it means 1000 pages of print outs from my EPSON
dot-matrix in 8 separate folders. it will be very difficult to learn
this way & what if i want to search for some phrase/ideas in C++, i am
"gone" in this case. i speak from experience, i tried this with
"Practical Common Lisp" & trust me, it was huge time wastage with much
less productivity & output (well, that is why Stroustrup created C++
:-)

3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

4.) read "C++ Primer" 3/e: utterly incomprehensible to me.

4.) Learn C first -OOA & D book -C++. an excellent way to confuse
myself as i have found that learning "vectors, strings, new-delete"
1st, makes learning "C character arrays & free-malloc" much easier.
(while the opposite is not true, i tried it 2 months ago)

5.) Go directly with Stroustrup: +ve point is i will learn "Pure C++",
-ve point is i dont have any real-life coding experience, hence i found
it *too* dense & 50% of the times i did not understand what exactly he
was talink about. (but i do know what are variables, functions &
classes + strings, vectors, new delete from C++)

from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

thanks for your time

- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogapot.com

I definitely think you should learn C as well though. You can't go past
"The C Programming Language", by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M.
Ritchie.

[Roland Pibinger]

On 25 Oct 2006 10:37:59 -0700, "arnuld" <ar*****@gmail.comwrote:

>i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:
--Problem-- as you folks know that i want to learn Modern C++ & in my
country "C++ Primer" 4/e & "Accelerated C++" are not available & being
a jobless person i dont have money to order anything from abroad. i
have these books on my shelf:

Why do you want to learn old-fashioned 'Modern C++'? If I were
'standing on a crossroad' I would learn C, a modern scripting language
like Ruby or Python and - depending on the job market - either Java
(language and platform(s)) or C# and .NET.

Best wishes,
Roland Pibinger

[arnuld]

Joseph Paterson wrote:

I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

You can't go past "The C Programming Language", by Brian W. Kernighan
and Dennis M. Ritchie.

what it has to do with C++?

[mlimber]

arnuld wrote:

i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:

You should say, "posting it here repeatedly." :-)

--Problem-- as you folks know that i want to learn Modern C++ & in my
country "C++ Primer" 4/e & "Accelerated C++" are not available & being
a jobless person i dont have money to order anything from abroad. i
have these books on my shelf:

1.) "Thinking in C++" 2/e
2.) "C++ Primer" 3/e
3.) "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup
4.) An illegal version of "C++ Primer" 4/e as a .chm file on my
Desktop.

i have these 5 options:

1.) read "C++ Primer 4/e" online: cant be done. with online copies
productivity goes down to 20%. reading "physically" really makes the
difference in understanding & learning the language.

2.) i took print-outs of 2-3-4 chapters of C++ Primer 4/e & read them &
found them excellent, though i took a while to understand. it has 800
pages, for me, it means 1000 pages of print outs from my EPSON
dot-matrix in 8 separate folders. it will be very difficult to learn
this way & what if i want to search for some phrase/ideas in C++, i am
"gone" in this case. i speak from experience, i tried this with
"Practical Common Lisp" & trust me, it was huge time wastage with much
less productivity & output (well, that is why Stroustrup created C++
:-)

Add to that the ethical issues involved in stolen books, and you have a
clear-cut case against this one, IMHO.

3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

You have a hard-copy of this? If so, it might be your best bet.

4.) read "C++ Primer" 3/e: utterly incomprehensible to me.

Possibly dated, too. I'm not sure.

4.) Learn C first -OOA & D book -C++. an excellent way to confuse
myself

Right. C++ is not C.

as i have found that learning "vectors, strings, new-delete"
1st, makes learning "C character arrays & free-malloc" much easier.
(while the opposite is not true, i tried it 2 months ago)

Right. That's why _Accelerated C++_ does it in that order.

5.) Go directly with Stroustrup: +ve point is i will learn "Pure C++",
-ve point is i dont have any real-life coding experience, hence i found
it *too* dense & 50% of the times i did not understand what exactly he
was talink about. (but i do know what are variables, functions &
classes + strings, vectors, new delete from C++)

I presume you mean the 3rd ed. This is an excellent book, but it is not
for beginners. I would suggest learning the basics somewhere else.

from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

You're going to have to climb the learning curve somewhere, and I'd say
_Thinking in C++_ is the best of your options. Do the exercises Eckel
gives, and practice practice practice. Maybe you can join an
open-source project of some sort to get additional experience.

- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogapot.com

Hmm, that doesn't look like a blog to me. Why put it in your sig?

Cheers! --M

[arnuld]

Roland Pibinger wrote:

Why do you want to learn old-fashioned 'Modern C++'?

what is the reason behind this "saying"?

If "Modern C++" is old-fashioned, what exactly you will say for C.

If I were
'standing on a crossroad' I would learn C, a modern scripting language
like Ruby or Python and - depending on the job market - either Java
(language and platform(s)) or C# and .NET.

this is exactly what i am talking about, "depending on the job market".
i chose C++ because in India, i have found majority of jobs require
standalone "C++, UNIX user experience, OOA & D knowledge + 1-2 years of
real-life coding". i dont like Jave, i hate Java & i use UNIX not
buggy Windows & their crappy tools like ".NET" & "non-sense a.k.a VB".
sorry & i could not resist.

i used Windows for 4 years. since Dec 2005, i am using Debian Sarge & i
feel i am years ahead in my "technical development".

Best wishes,

thanks ;-)

Roland Pibinger

[arnuld]

mlimber wrote:

arnuld wrote:

i am standing on a "crossroad to C++". I am here in front of you as i
have a problem. i will be brief. Please do not think: "arnuld is sick",
i am really struggling & doing hard-work to become a Modern C++
Programmer & i am feeling as if i am standing on a crossroad. i am
asking because every time i made a decision on my own, in my past, i
always ran into huge wastage of time, money & effort. that is why i am
posting it here:

You should say, "posting it here repeatedly." :-)

Ha...Ha.....you naughty boy ;-)

Add to that the ethical issues involved in stolen books, and you have a
clear-cut case against this one, IMHO.

Hmmm.... i think of these issues now.

3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

You have a hard-copy of this? If so, it might be your best bet.

it is a good book but i do not understand most of his programmes
because of "too much of C" is used as basics.

5.) Go directly with Stroustrup: +ve point is i will learn "Pure C++",
-ve point is i dont have any real-life coding experience, hence i found
it *too* dense & 50% of the times i did not understand what exactly he
was talink about. (but i do know what are variables, functions &
classes + strings, vectors, new delete from C++)

I presume you mean the 3rd ed. This is an excellent book, but it is not
for beginners. I would suggest learning the basics somewhere else.

yes, it is 3rd edition. after reading it for whole day i felt
"Stroustrup" created C++ to solve some of the most painful issues of
Sofware Engineering (the ones where C was quite a terrible choice)

You're going to have to climb the learning curve somewhere, and I'd say
_Thinking in C++_ is the best of your options. Do the exercises Eckel
gives, and practice practice practice. Maybe you can join an
open-source project of some sort to get additional experience.

GNU is my destination for contributions.

- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogapot.com

Hmm, that doesn't look like a blog to me. Why put it in your sig?

really very sorry for that "typo". corrected this time. it is my blog &
i want to get comments from some "experienced" individuals regarding my
article "On The Perils of Java Schools".

Cheers! --M

OK, i say Cheers! ;-)

-- arnuld
http://arnuld.blogspot.com

[mlimber]

arnuld wrote:

Joseph Paterson wrote:

I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then it's a
waste of your time and money.

With C, the case is certainly more debatable, but I'd say learn C later
or if/when you actually need it (the FAQ agrees:
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...html#faq-28.2).
C is different than C++. For instance, the former requires more
low-level resource management like malloc/free and fopen/fclose, while
the latter automates such tasks with fundamental techniques like RAII.
C requires return codes to indicate errors, while C++ provides
exceptions. Etc. etc. If you want to learn C++, learn C++ not C (or
Java or Smalltalk or whatever).

Cheers! --M

[arnuld]

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or PL/I.

Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then it's a
waste of your time and money.

Hmmm...... i think you are *right*. what do 90% of people say in this
world is really way, way wrong. either it needs to be changed or
modified, like you did. i usually do it, in my daily habits like
talking, responding to certain situations or giving an answer to
someone's question, the way you did & nearly 99.99% of the times people
see right & left and remain silent as they do not find any logic of
their questions, after listening to my answer.

today you taught me :-)

With C, the case is certainly more debatable, but I'd say learn C later
or if/when you actually need it (the FAQ agrees:
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lit...html#faq-28.2).

FAQ is good place, i always consult it first & follow it. (it started
just last week as i saw that my 4 months of experience "matches" with
"Learning OO/C++" part of FAQs. i could have saved a lot of time just
by following the advice from FAQ).

C is different than C++. For instance, the former requires more
low-level resource management like malloc/free and fopen/fclose, while
the latter automates such tasks with fundamental techniques like RAII.
C requires return codes to indicate errors, while C++ provides
exceptions. Etc. etc. If you want to learn C++, learn C++ not C (or
Java or Smalltalk or whatever).

i cant explain whether the reason is "low level resource management" or
"something else" but it happened with me in case of "vectors, strings,
new-delete" & "C style character strings, arrays, free malloc, as i
told you in my earlier post.

Cheers! --M

OK... i say Cheers! again ;-)

one more thing, i have my signatures in "gmail" but how can i have my
signatures here in posting answers? i put my name & blog address
everytime manually :-(

[BobR]

arnuld wrote in message

>
3.) read "Bruce Eckel": tried that, he makes heavy-use of C. i dont
know C, i dont want to, i want C++.

Starts in 'C', goes to 'C++'. ( It really helps to be able to recognise 'C'
from 'C++' code.)
Do you have both vol 1 & 2?
I have a method for tech. books:

Read the book cover-to-cover ( like a paper-back novel). Don't stop, even if
you don't understand.
Then, re-read the book. This time, do all the examples (and do experiment!),
end-of-chapter tests, etc.. Do not progress to the next section until you
have (at least some) understanding of the section you are in.

Try it, I think you'll find it logical.

--
Bob R
POVrookie

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>arnuld wrote:

>Joseph Paterson wrote:

I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then it's a
waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[mlimber]

Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

arnuld wrote:

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then it's a
waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Well, one might learn some things indirectly from such an experience or
gain some self-satifaction for posessing arcane knowledge, but more
than likely one's resources would be better invested elsewhere.

Cheers! --M

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11**********************@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>arnuld wrote:
learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then it's a
waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Well, one might learn some things indirectly from such an experience or
gain some self-satifaction for posessing arcane knowledge, but more
than likely one's resources would be better invested elsewhere.

Picking up a new language may not _always_ be a good idea,
but not learning sonmething because "you won't use it" does not
have to mean it is arcane.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[arnuld]

Starts in 'C', goes to 'C++'. ( It really helps to be able to recognise 'C'

from 'C++' code.)
Do you have both vol 1 & 2?

no, i own only vol-1 but both volumes are easily available in India.

>
I have a method for tech. books:

Read the book cover-to-cover ( like a paper-back novel). Don't stop, even if
you don't understand.
Then, re-read the book. This time, do all the examples (and do experiment!),
end-of-chapter tests, etc.. Do not progress to the next section until you
have (at least some) understanding of the section you are in.

Try it, I think you'll find it logical.

i tried it IIRC, i found it good. anyway, i have 2 ways to go form the
replies here: Stroustrup & Eckel, i will try them both before making
any point.

POVrookie

what does that mean?

[Phlip]

>POVrookie

>
what does that mean?

Maybe www.povray.org

(Thence http://flea.sourceforge.net/ )

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[BobR]

arnuld wrote in message
<11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>...

>Starts in 'C', goes to 'C++'. ( It really helps to be able to recognise

'C'

>from 'C++' code.)
Do you have both vol 1 & 2?

no, i own only vol-1 but both volumes are easily available in India.

Get "Thinking in C++", 2nd ed. Volume 1(&2) by Bruce Eckel
(available for free here. You can buy it in hardcopy too.):
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/...ngInCPP2e.html

>

>POVrookie

what does that mean?

Will reply to Philip tomorrow...... <G>

--
Bob R
POVrookie

[mlimber]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Picking up a new language may not _always_ be a good idea,
but not learning sonmething because "you won't use it" does not
have to mean it is arcane.

Yes, yes. I didn't mean in absolute terms. Just pragmatically speaking.

Cheers! --M

[tragomaskhalos]

Arnuld,

Some extra advice:

1/ Books are great, but you will only make real progress by writing
code.
So, whichever book you decide to use, get yourself a free compiler - in
fact preferably several - and get coding.
And whilst small snippets are OK, a meaty project is the best way to
really get to grips with the language.

2/ C++ is a big language, but it can be tackled one bit at a time -
don't try and learn the whole lot at once, instead learn the core
concepts and practice them, then move on to the next level.

3/ If there is an economic imperative at work here - eg you can't
afford books - whilst I applaud your dedication to C++ I question it
from a commercial perspective. .NET and/or Java are a far shorter route
to paying the bills. I say this as someone who processes a good deal of
CVs from your part of the world.

Good luck anyway ...

[glen]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:47:02 +0200, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:

* arnuld:

>>
from all of this, i concluded Stroustrup is the only way to go. i just
need to dwell into it. what do you suggest?

Go for Stroustrup. That's the book I used (but then I had background
from C, and also, it was the first edition, which was a very slim book
compared to later ones aimed at US market where books are sold by
weight). Just read it /slowly/, like each page is one chapter, and
don't forget, try out things on your computer, e.g. /for each page/!

Hi, joining this conversation late, so maybe this post is not irrelevant.

Stroustrup has an important place on my bookshelf, but I don't think it's
the best place to go to learn the language. I think it's much better
suited as a reference, and to provide advanced insight into issues.

For learning the language I pass another book on my shelf, by O'Reilly.
It's loaned out right now, but I think it was title just 'Learning C++'.
I still turn to it from time to time, although far less often than
Stroustrup, for certain topics. It doesn't get much into advanced topics,
but it's small and has a lot of really useful information. Well written
and actually a page turner.

If you're a C expert, or have a really strong computer science background,
Stroustrup is a good recomendation. But if not I'd recomment 'Learning...'

[mlimber]

glen wrote:

For learning the language I pass another book on my shelf, by O'Reilly.
It's loaned out right now, but I think it was title just 'Learning C++'.

The problem is that the OP has limited book availability. As for
_Learning C++_, see the review at:

http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...review=l003746

If any book were a possiblity, I'd still go with _Accelerated C++_ (see
the review at
http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...eview=a002212).

Cheers! --M

[arnuld]

tragomaskhalos wrote:

1/ Books are great, but you will only make real progress by writing code.
So, whichever book you decide to use, get yourself a free compiler - in
fact preferably several - and get coding.

i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

And whilst small snippets are OK, a meaty project is the best way to
really get to grips with the language.

i know, trouble is, one can only work on a C++ based project if he know
& understands C++ syntax. i spent 2 years of my life as a "salesman" &
that taught me about the realities. "work" is, to put it short,
way...way...different from academics. i am desperately waiting for the
day when i will finish C++ & start "real-life coding" at
http://savannah.gnu.org/ :-)

2/ C++ is a big language, but it can be tackled one bit at a time -
don't try and learn the whole lot at once, instead learn the core
concepts and practice them, then move on to the next level.

yes & C++ Primer 4/e was really perfect for this way. anyway, i am
trying both "Stroustrup" & "Eckel" & within 1-2 days i will switch to
one book.

3/ If there is an economic imperative at work here - eg you can't
afford books - whilst I applaud your dedication to C++ I question it
from a commercial perspective. .NET and/or Java are a far shorter route
to paying the bills. I say this as someone who processes a good deal of
CVs from your part of the world.

yeah, you are right. 60% of jobs belong to the "Java + .NET/VB" world &
40% to all other languages & 25-30% of ground is captured by C++, i am
trying to compete on this 25% ground. why?...read on. i have my
juniors (from college) earning 10, 000 INRs per month using .NET & i am
penny-less :-( , (BTW they carry Engineering degrees, i do not & ask
them something about C++ & they say "Oh, i dont use OOD, so i dont need
C++" & ask them about "Common Lisp" they say "What is that? i have
heard about Lisp, what is this Common Lisp?" when they knew i learnt
Lisp, one of them said "Ok, now i got it, you programme robots". when
they asked why i learn Lisp, my answer was "to Hack" & then i heard
"you want to become a criminal?" & then i cam to know i was dealing
with "fucking IDIOTS" earning 10,000 INR/month. all of them use either
..NET or VB or Java.

but the bottom line is "they are earning 10,000 INR/month. i am trying
much hard to keep a balance between my desire of becoming a *Hacker* &
the *need* of start doing some earning.

regarding Java & .NET. i hate Java. my college tried to teach us
"fundamentals of Java" in our final year of graduation & next i left
Computer Programming & went into "selling" as Programming was "most 3rd
class thing i ever saw". (at that time i knew only what they taught me
i.e. DOS, BASIC, Windows, .NET, VB, C & Java & my teacher advised
students to get "1500 pages" book of DOS to the students who were
"serious" about their careers & i wrote 22 marks of C programmes
without even knowing what "String.h" is. i have not heard the word
"Linux", it only happened in 2005 with "Hackers" at HBO the day i
Goggled for "computer careers" & i found "Python", "UNIX", "OpenBSD",
"Fedora" & "GNU" & "Hacker how to" i never stopped since then. 6 months
ago i threw away all the Windows & Windows based softwares CDs, 35 in
total :-)

i used Windows for 4 years & trust me it gave me nothing in
productivity. after 4 years you still stand where you were 4 years ago.
I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year & i
possess "common-sense" now. Windows degrades your senses, Windows users
carry diseases like paralysis, blindness & mirage-syndrome. remember
that there are exceptions in both directions & i am talking of 90% of
community.

Good luck anyway ...

thanks :-)

[BobR]

Phlip wrote in message ...

>>POVrookie

what does that mean?

Maybe www.povray.org

That's it.
I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray scripting
was very 'C' like. Then in 2000 I saw that 'C' and 'C++' had been
'standardised' (in '98), so, I decided it was time for a change.
I have to admit that now I can have a GUI program up-n-running in a day,
where it used to take at least a week in Assembler[1].
Funny, back in the '80s, I used to refer to 'C' as "a glorified librarian"
(due to it's lack of i/o without the use of libraries).

Anyway, on the raytrace NG I used to sign 'POVrookie', and just kept it over
the years.
[ with all they've added to the POVray script language (SDL), I'm still a
rookie! ]
It's more-or-less my trademark now.

[1] - I did my own graphics directly to my graphics card, and later used the
Vesa interface. Was using OOP (I called it 'modular') years before I found
out what it was. <G>
--
Bob R
POVrookie

[Bo Persson]

Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>arnuld wrote:

>>Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!
Bo Persson

[mlimber]

Bo Persson wrote:

Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

[Bo Persson]

mlimber wrote:

Bo Persson wrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>>In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:
arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
>I definitely think you should learn C as well though.
>
learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns
COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a
small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but
the OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in
most others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning
it.[/OT]

Cheers! --M

There is actually another (merged) part of the company that is heavily
into PL/I. :-)

The question you (the OP) might ask your/himself is, do you want to go
mainstream and compete with everyone, or do you want to specialize and
get a nice niche position? Who knows?

Just look at me, posting here in favor of C++ and having a day job
writing mainframe COBOL. :-)
Bo Persson

[BobR]

arnuld wrote in message

>
i use "Debian Sarge", hence running "GCC - 3.3.5". i know its quite old
but i will be able to to get Fedora Core 6 after 3rd-5th November, then
i will use Fedora.

<snip>

>
I advice everyone to use UNIX, i am using it from last 1 year &...

A conflict in terms.
'Debian' and 'Fedora'(AFAIK) are GNU, and the 'NU' in GNU stands for "Not
Unix"! <G>

Most people say 'Linux', but, the OS is GNU and most use the 'Linux kernel'.
So, you see 'Debian' refer to it as 'GNU/Linux'. Read-up on the history of
'Linux' in your Debian docs.

Newbies (FYI):
Debian is free, as in "freedom". And you can download it for free, as in
"free beer".
[ if you have a slow connection to the net, I suggest you buy a set of
CDs/DVDs. (the software is free, you are paying for the
download-time+media+shipping) ]
See www.debian.org and www.gnu.org for more.
And, you can have windows and GNU on the same computer.
--
Bob R
POVrookie
"Sarge is great, so good to finally be out of SID!"

[Phlip]

BobR wrote:

I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray
scripting
was very 'C' like.

I ought to line up and smack everyone who ever said that some language was
"C-like" when the only point in common was excessive {} delimiters.

Including those who say it about Java and C#.

POVray, while an awesome language in its own right, has as much in common
with C as a pogo stick has with a tank.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[BobR]

Phlip wrote in message ...

>BobR wrote:

>I actually got into C++ because of POVray. I used to work (hobby) in
Assembler(x86 real-mode). I kept seeing people say that the POVray
scripting was very 'C' like.

I ought to line up and smack everyone who ever said that some language was
"C-like" when the only point in common was excessive {} delimiters.

I'll help ya. Just remember that ***I*** didn't say it. <G>

But, it was enough to get me to take a look at 'C', 'C++'.
[ obviously I chose 'C++'. ]

>
Including those who say it about Java and C#.

POVray, while an awesome language in its own right, has as much in common
with C as a pogo stick has with a tank.

Riiiiiggghhttt!!!

Uhhh, you got a tank in POV SDL? <G>

--
Bob R
POVrookie

[Greg Comeau]

In article <4q************@individual.net>, Bo Persson <bo*@gmb.dkwrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>>arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

We are right now buying and customizing a large package that will
require maintenance for the next 10-20 years. Knowing COBOL might mean
a secure job for a decade or two!

I understand those concerns well. Part of my roots are in
mainframe COBOL and mainframe PL/I. I will probably never use
them again, but I have no regrets from having done so.
My horizons are expanded and it has become an aspect of what
has shaped me. My only regrets is that there is only 24 hours
a day for learning even more. That said, saying this is far
away from the OPs original question as I recall it.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11********************@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.c om>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:

>Bo Persson wrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

In article <11*********************@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>,
mlimber <ml*****@gmail.comwrote:
arnuld wrote:
Joseph Paterson wrote:
I definitely think you should learn C as well though.

learning new langugae is always a good idea.

Wrong. There is likely no good reason for you to learn COBOL or
PL/I.
Not only is it not "a good idea," but if you won't use it, then
it's
a waste of your time and money.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Right. I work in a COBOL shop with most people aged 40-60. The 60+
guys will soon retire. Who will replace them, if nobody learns COBOL?

[OT]You'll note that I said "*if* you won't use it." There are a small
number of niche jobs that will use COBOL (but how about PL/I?), but the
OP doesn't seem concerned with those. So in his situation (as in most
others'), it's likely a waste to invest resources learning it.[/OT]

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[Greg Comeau]

In article <4q************@individual.net>, Bo Persson <bo*@gmb.dkwrote:

>The question you (the OP) might ask your/himself is, do you want to go
mainstream and compete with everyone, or do you want to specialize and
get a nice niche position? Who knows?

Or both. This is not too far fetched, I know I've morphed back
and forth over the years a number of times.

>Just look at me, posting here in favor of C++ and having a day job
writing mainframe COBOL. :-)

There ya go :)
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[arnuld]

BobR wrote:

A conflict in terms.
'Debian' and 'Fedora'(AFAIK) are GNU, and the 'NU' in GNU stands for "Not
Unix"! <G>

i KNOW, when isaid UNIX, it meant "the OSs using UNIX way": UNIX,
GNU/Linux, Fedora Core & 4 BSDs.

Most people say 'Linux', but, the OS is GNU and most use the 'Linux kernel'.
So, you see 'Debian' refer to it as 'GNU/Linux'. Read-up on the history of
'Linux' in your Debian docs.

i already knew that & i have even coined a new term for whether Linux
or GNU/Linux, i call it LIGNUX - the GNU system running Linux as
kernel. i am much more interested in HURD/L4 & L4Ka::Pistachio.

Newbies (FYI):
Debian is free, as in "freedom". And you can download it for free, as in
"free beer".
[ if you have a slow connection to the net, I suggest you buy a set of
CDs/DVDs. (the software is free, you are paying for the
download-time+media+shipping) ]
See www.debian.org and www.gnu.org for more.
And, you can have windows and GNU on the same computer.

yeah, i had them together & i was constantly switching to Windows for
my daily work, then after much frustration & thought i converted my Box
into Debian Box & threw away all Windows & Windows based softwares 35
CDs (as i told earlier :-) , much happier now & possess good knowledge
of OSs, hardware etc tec.

[arnuld]

mlimber wrote:

glen wrote:

For learning the language I pass another book on my shelf, by O'Reilly.
It's loaned out right now, but I think it was title just 'Learning C++'.

The problem is that the OP has limited book availability. As for
_Learning C++_, see the review at:

http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...review=l003746

i checked ACCU reviews & from there i went to "blackwell" & "amazon" &
to the home-page at http://www.eric-nagler.com/ & found this book
assumes "prior" programming experience like C or Java, if i knew that,
i could have been using Stroustrup.

also its 3/e is not available, only the 1st one is available (just like
C++ Primer :-(

If any book were a possiblity, I'd still go with _Accelerated C++_ (see
the review at
http://accu.org/index.php/book_revie...eview=a002212).

i have its illegal copy, PDF format, read 1 chapter form it. i found
C++ Primer 4/e much better for me. i think "Accelerated C++" assumes
some programming skill, may be i am wrong, folks know better.

anyway, i tried Stroustrup today, it is really very-incomprehensible to
me, it feels like a working-programmer's book who has 3-5 years of
experience of Software Development, notice i did not say CS (also to me
it does not look like a reference work, i disagree with such opinions)

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11*********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.c om>,
arnuld <ar*****@gmail.comwrote:

>[Stroustrup] does not look like a reference work, i disagree
with such opinions)

I look stuff up in it all the time. So whatever it may or
may not look like, some of us do use it for reference,
among other things.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [Stroustrup & Eckel] & finally after much *work*
i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [Stroustrup & Eckel] & finally after much *work*
i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

thanks

[arnuld]

arnuld wrote:

Greg Comeau wrote:

Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

SORRY for multiple-posts. that happened because of the
disgusting-internet connection i have.

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11*********************@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups. com>,
arnuld <ar*****@gmail.comwrote:

>Greg Comeau wrote:

>Indeed, we're probably way off from the OPs questions at
this point, but COBOL ain't dead.

Ok, i tried both books [ Stroustrup & Eckel ] & finally after much
*work* i gave up. i think i also lack on experience. reverting to my
*unmanaged* bundle of C++ Primer 4/e.

still, i will be here for any comments or advice.

You tried both books in what 24 hours? Programming requires
a lot of patience and head banging, even when dealing with some
of the better educational sources.

Anyway, I can tend to "feel your pain". I would suggest
having a look at http://www.comeaucomputing.com/booklist
and seeing which of the "softer" introductions rub you the
right way, making note that many of them are not perfect
either (more inacurracies, especially that never get fixed,
as well as less insights, which IMO are vital).
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[arnuld]

Greg Comeau wrote:

You tried both books in what 24 hours? Programming requires
a lot of patience and head banging, even when dealing with some
of the better educational sources.

NO, not 24 hours. i read "Ecekel" for more than 1 month continuously &
trust me "knowing C" is not the prerequisite, the prerequisite is "you
must have programmed in C, for some time, at least"

Stroustrup: i banged my head with this book for 4-5 days & it is really
far-above my head. i feel he is some sort of Software Engineer who has
taken the responsibilty to solve the most important problems/issues of
Soft. Engg (notice i did not say CS). i say so because i *think* one
needs to have "2-5" years of experience of Software-Development besides
C, for understanding his book.

Anyway, I can tend to "feel your pain". I would suggest
having a look at http://www.comeaucomputing.com/booklist
and seeing which of the "softer" introductions rub you the
right way, making note that many of them are not perfect
either (more inacurracies, especially that never get fixed,
as well as less insights, which IMO are vital).

i lurked there & found you mentioned 4 books new to me & none of them
is available in India :-( thanks anyway for the help.

Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity!

i dont know but i want to ask: you are doing programming from last 20
years?

[Victor Bazarov]

arnuld wrote:

[..]
i lurked there & found you mentioned 4 books new to me & none of them
is available [..]

Just out of the blue, unrelated altogether, but I wanted to mention
an old Russian proverb: "He who wants to have things done, finds
a way, he who doesn't, finds an excuse".

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask

[arnuld]

Anyway, I can tend to "feel your pain". I would suggest
having a look at http://www.comeaucomputing.com/booklist
and seeing which of the "softer" introductions rub you the
right way, making note that many of them are not perfect
either (more inacurracies, especially that never get fixed,
as well as less insights, which IMO are vital).

i lurked there & found you mentioned 4 books new to me & none of them
is available in India :-( thanks anyway for the help.

except the one, "Essential C++", sorry i forgot to mention.

i checked ACCU
http://brian.accu.org/bookreviews/pu.../e/e002118.htm but was
not able to come up with anything. what do you say about this one?

[arnuld]

Just out of the blue, unrelated altogether, but I wanted to mention

an old Russian proverb: "He who wants to have things done, finds
a way, he who doesn't, finds an excuse".

do you really expect a novice to understand this:

template<class T>class vec : public vector<T{
public:
Vec() : vector<T>() { }
Vec(int s) : vector<T>(s) { }

T& operator[](int i) { return at(i); }
const T& operator[](int i) const { return at(i); }
};

or this:

int add(CStash* s, const void* element) {
if(s->next >= s->quantity) //Enough space left?
inflate(s, increment);
// Copy element into storage,
// starting at next empty space:
int startBytes = s->next * s->size;
unsigned char* e = (unsigned char*)element;
for(int i = 0; i < s->size; i++)
s->storage[startBytes + i] = e[i];
s->next++;
return(s->next - 1); // Index number
}
i found the following way:

K&R2 C Project Eckel/Stroustrup C++ Project

& trust me it really looks disgusting, C before C++. OK..., what path
you say?

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* arnuld:

Greg Comeau wrote:

>You tried both books in what 24 hours? Programming requires
a lot of patience and head banging, even when dealing with some
of the better educational sources.

NO, not 24 hours. i read "Ecekel" for more than 1 month continuously &
trust me "knowing C" is not the prerequisite, the prerequisite is "you
must have programmed in C, for some time, at least"

Stroustrup: i banged my head with this book for 4-5 days

I gave you the advice to do one page per day, /trying out things on your
computer for each page/.

In 4-5 days you should have completed 4-5 pages; that's not much to
judge a book by. If you have tried to go much faster then you don't
even have 4-5 pages assimilated. Perhaps just the equivalent of 1.

Keep in mind that no-one answering you here, and I include Greg (beg
forgiveness, Greg) and of course myself, consider themselves to know the
complete language, even after years and years of using it, and in Greg's
case, implementing the commercial compiler that most completely adheres
to the standard. And in one sense it's impossible to know the complete
language since new ambiguities, errors, self-contradictions and so on
are discovered in the standard all the time, so really, don't expect to
learn it in 4-5 days: expect to be able to do 4-5 pages, or thereabouts.

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Greg Comeau]

In article <11**********************@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
arnuld <ar*****@gmail.comwrote:

>Just out of the blue, unrelated altogether, but I wanted to mention
an old Russian proverb: "He who wants to have things done, finds
a way, he who doesn't, finds an excuse".

do you really expect a novice to understand this:
...

No. That would be unreasonable. But it would not be unreasonable
to expect a novice to:

1) Get more than one text
2) Be expected to read and reread paragraphs, sections, chapters
3) Go back to earlier chapters for info they didn't grasp first time
4) Try many of the examples gives by the author.
5) Try many of the exercises suggested by the author.
6) Spend hours and hours on it.
7) Take it slow
8) Understand that a tour of something is not necessarily a novice description

>i found the following way:

K&R2 C Project Eckel/Stroustrup C++ Project

& trust me it really looks disgusting, C before C++. OK..., what path
you say?

Personally I don't find it disgusting at all. But it may not be
optimal. Also, K&R can be very hard for many, even those who do
not find it hard.
--
Greg Comeau / 20 years of Comeauity! Intel Mac Port now in beta!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[bjarne]

Greg Comeau wrote:

i found the following way:

K&R2 C Project Eckel/Stroustrup C++ Project

& trust me it really looks disgusting, C before C++. OK..., what path
you say?

Personally I don't find it disgusting at all. But it may not be
optimal. Also, K&R can be very hard for many, even those who do
not find it hard.

and those of you who are not complete novices may like to read this
paper contrasting the C-first and C++first approaches:
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/new_learning.pdf

-- Bjarne Stroustrup: http://www.research.att.com/~bs