Random Seeding

[porterboy76]

If you only use a 32 bit seed for a random number generator,
does that mean you can only ever produce a maximum of
2^32 (approx 4 billion) different sequences?

What about the Mersenne Twister, with it's massive period
of 2^19937-1. Will you only ever have access to a tiny
portion of this ring of numbers, if you only use a 32-bit seed?
Will this set of sequences be confined to the beginning of the
period, ie, your sequence will have to start at some place
between index number 1 and 4 billion of the period (ignores
all the possible data after this)?.

Or have I misunderstood the concept of a seed?

(I am using the original c code from...
http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.j...at/MT/emt.html)

[rory.brandybuck]

I would suggest that your possibly get 2^32 sequences with 2^19937-1
number
of elements in each.

[porterboy76]

> (ignores all the possible data after this)?.

this should have read:

(ignores all the possible "starting points" after this)?.

I would suggest that your possibly get 2^32 sequences with 2^19937-1
number of elements in each.

That's kind of what I thought. It seems fairly limited.
However, I just realised the Mersenne Twister c code
provided by it's inventors allows for longer seeds.

"Those who need initial seed with more than 32-bit
length may use init_by_array() for initialization which
admits an array of arbitrary length as seeds"

I guess you could use an array seeded with the time,
the process ID, and some compressed info from
/dev/random or /dev/audio. Still I imagine it would
still be very difficult to guarantee starting points
distibuted uniformly around the ring of numbers?

[Gordon Burditt]

>If you only use a 32 bit seed for a random number generator,

does that mean you can only ever produce a maximum of
2^32 (approx 4 billion) different sequences?
Yes, assuming you always start a sequence with the first number
generated after seeding. It may be possible to use a "secondary
seed" by getting and throwing away N pseudo-random numbers before
using one, which, depending on the generator, may or may not improve
anything.
What about the Mersenne Twister, with it's massive period
of 2^19937-1. Will you only ever have access to a tiny
portion of this ring of numbers, if you only use a 32-bit seed?
It is quite possible to cripple a good pseudo-random number generator
with a poor seed.
Will this set of sequences be confined to the beginning of the
period, ie, your sequence will have to start at some place
between index number 1 and 4 billion of the period (ignores
all the possible data after this)?.

I don't think there's any guarantee of that, and it would depend
on the generator.

Gordon L. Burditt

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <11**********************@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups .com> po*********@yahoo.com writes:

If you only use a 32 bit seed for a random number generator,
does that mean you can only ever produce a maximum of
2^32 (approx 4 billion) different sequences?
Depends on the generator. With some you may generate entirely different
sequences, with others you just generate different starting points in
a single sequence.
What about the Mersenne Twister, with it's massive period
of 2^19937-1. Will you only ever have access to a tiny
portion of this ring of numbers, if you only use a 32-bit seed?
No, you will ultimately get the whole range. If I understand it well,
MT uses a linear congruence method, and they inherently have only a
single loop as result.
Will this set of sequences be confined to the beginning of the
period, ie, your sequence will have to start at some place
between index number 1 and 4 billion of the period (ignores
all the possible data after this)?.

Not at all. In the Mersenne Twister you have a state of 19937 bits.
The state loops around all those different states, but when the state
has the appropriate 19905 bits equal to 0 (representing the 32 bit
starting points) is not clear. So you do indeed jump in a different
position of the generator, but those positions are not regularly
spaced around the loop.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Keith Thompson]

po*********@yahoo.com writes:

(ignores all the possible data after this)?.

this should have read:

(ignores all the possible "starting points" after this)?.

I would suggest that your possibly get 2^32 sequences with 2^19937-1
number of elements in each.

That's kind of what I thought. It seems fairly limited.
However, I just realised the Mersenne Twister c code
provided by it's inventors allows for longer seeds.

"Those who need initial seed with more than 32-bit
length may use init_by_array() for initialization which
admits an array of arbitrary length as seeds"

I guess you could use an array seeded with the time,
the process ID, and some compressed info from
/dev/random or /dev/audio. Still I imagine it would
still be very difficult to guarantee starting points
distibuted uniformly around the ring of numbers?

<OT>
If you have /dev/random, why would you bother with the time, the
process ID, or /dev/audio?

For that matter, if you have /dev/random, it's not entirely clear you
need to bother with a Mersenne Twister (but the question is beyond my
expertise).
</OT>

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[porterboy76]

Well, that kind of leads into the next question I
was going to ask. How can I make the seeding
work on all platforms? I have /dev/random on
my linux box, but not on Windows (and I havent
checked if its on my MAC, which is BSD based).

Does Windows have an Entropy Pool like
/dev/random that can be accessed by C.
(OK, I guess that's slightly off topic).

More on topic, do I have to use #ifdef statements
to provide for entropy pools on different platforms?
I was just going to use the functions provided by
#include <time.h>, but I'm not happy that it gives
me a wide enough range of seeds.

(BTW, /dev/random may or may not be "random enough"
compared to the MT, but it more than likely is not fast
enough, since the disk must be accessed).

[Eric Sosman]

Keith Thompson wrote On 05/15/06 16:13,:

po*********@yahoo.com writes:

(ignores all the possible data after this)?.

this should have read:

(ignores all the possible "starting points" after this)?.

I would suggest that your possibly get 2^32 sequences with 2^19937-1
number of elements in each.

That's kind of what I thought. It seems fairly limited.
However, I just realised the Mersenne Twister c code
provided by it's inventors allows for longer seeds.

"Those who need initial seed with more than 32-bit
length may use init_by_array() for initialization which
admits an array of arbitrary length as seeds"

I guess you could use an array seeded with the time,
the process ID, and some compressed info from
/dev/random or /dev/audio. Still I imagine it would
still be very difficult to guarantee starting points
distibuted uniformly around the ring of numbers?

<OT>
If you have /dev/random, why would you bother with the time, the
process ID, or /dev/audio?

For that matter, if you have /dev/random, it's not entirely clear you
need to bother with a Mersenne Twister (but the question is beyond my
expertise).
</OT>

<OT>

A reproducible seed (and a subsequent reproducible
sequence) can be of value. Consider testing a module by
throwing pseudo-random data at it; when a failure turns
up you'd like to be able to regenerate the exact same data
as part of verifying your fix.

For the second matter, data rate is generally the issue.
It takes a significant amount of time for a physical source
to generate random data and pass it through assorted bias-
removing filters. If you try to read a zillion random numbers
from such a source, you may need to wait quite a while. It's
more common to use /dev/random or whatever to concoct a "truly
random" seed for a deterministic pseudo-random generator that
can generate subsequent numbers at computer speeds. For even
less predictability, the "truly random" source can also be
used to perturb the deterministic generator now and then.

Oddly enough, D.H. Lehmer used something very like this
perturbation technique in his original (and oft-criticized)
linear congruential generator. According to Knuth:

It is not fair to blame Lehmer for using a "bad"
random-number generator in 1948, since his actual
use of the generator was quite valid. The ENIAC
computer was a highly parallel machine, programmed
by means of a plugboard; Lehmer set it up so that
one of its accumulators was repeatedly multiplying
its own contents by 23, mod 10^8+1, yielding a new
value every few microseconds. Since this multiplier
23 is too small, we know that each value obtained
by this process was too strongly related to the
preceding value to be considered sufficiently random;
but the durations of time between actual uses of the
values in the special accumulator by the accompanying
program were comparatively long and subject to some
fluctuation. So the effective multiplier was 23^k
for large, varying values of k!

-- "The Art of Computer Programming, Volume II:
Seminumerical Algorithms," section 3.3.1

Similar techniques can be found nowadays in games, where
it is common to generate and discard a pseudo-random value
each time the program polls its input devices; the eventual
sequence used in the main part of the program thus depends in
part on the delays in keystroke, mouse, or joystick timings,
generally considered unpredictable if not downright twitchy.

</OT>

--
Er*********@sun.com

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <11**********************@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups .com> po*********@yahoo.com writes:

(BTW, /dev/random may or may not be "random enough"
compared to the MT, but it more than likely is not fast
enough, since the disk must be accessed).
No, /dev/random does *not* imply disk access. It is a pseudo device,
just like /dev/zero. The random numbers are generated within the
kernel, but I can find no place where it is stated how. It appears
that most systems that implement it use statistics from kernel
interrupts or whatever to get the information. In general it is
cryptographically secure (which MT is not), but there is no way to
ascertain whether it complies to standard randomness tests.

So regarding your earlier question: Does Windows have an Entropy Pool like
/dev/random that can be accessed by C.

/dev/random does not come from an "entropy pool", it just generates
random numbers within the kernel.

When you need various subsequent random numbers /dev/random is a
very bad idea. It appears to be good to generate just a single
random number. When you need more, you can use the output as a
seed for a standard random number generator (e.g. MT).

When you are so bothered about the randomness of your numbers, you
really should study the way the generators work. When you do that
you will also appreciate that there are no generators that cover
all possibilities.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[porterboy76]

> No, /dev/random does *not* imply disk access. It is a pseudo device,

just like /dev/zero.
Thanks, I didn't know that....
When you need various subsequent random numbers /dev/random is a
very bad idea. It appears to be good to generate just a single
random number. When you need more, you can use the output as a
seed for a standard random number generator (e.g. MT).

....whereas I am well aware of this. I will certainly be sticking to the
Mersenne Twister for random sequence generation. My itch is random
seeding, and I want to scratch it in a safe way.

With a 32 bit seed, I will only ever generate 4 billion different
sequences, which I think emasculates the MT. By allowing
seeding by an arbitrary array of 32-bit numbers in their c-code,
the inventors have overcome this limitation, but I still need to
generate this array of 32-bit numbers in a way that is unpredictable,
and which works on all platforms.

<time.h> tools certainly work on all platforms of interest to me
(MAC, M$ & *NIX), but I am looking for one or two other orthogonal
seeds, to fill my array (hence the query about /dev/random and
PID).

[porterboy76]

> A reproducible seed (and a subsequent reproducible

sequence) can be of value. Consider testing a module by
throwing pseudo-random data at it; when a failure turns
up you'd like to be able to regenerate the exact same data
as part of verifying your fix.
Agreed. I intend testing my algorithms and simulations
using a fixed unchanging seed, so I can see how changes
affect the system. However, once I am satisfied that all is
well, I would like to switch in a more unpredictable seed, to
expand my range of possible tested sequences.

/* for your info I am doing simulation of card playing
strategies. At first I will deal the same sequence of hands
over and over to a lot of different strategies. Once I have
identified what is a good strategy and why (by examining
reproducible data from a fixed seed) I will then move onto
unreproducible data to see how the strategies fare in the
"real world". */
Similar techniques can be found nowadays in games, where
it is common to generate and discard a pseudo-random value
each time the program polls its input devices; the eventual
sequence used in the main part of the program thus depends in
part on the delays in keystroke, mouse, or joystick timings,
generally considered unpredictable if not downright twitchy.

I hadn't thought of user input as a seed, although for a fixed
set of actions (such as typing a few inputs) the variance of the
seed could be limited.

Now that I think of it, if I am not trying to be cryptographically
secure, then maybe operations on <time.h> functions will
suffice for my needs, since I will always be guaranteed to
advance through the Mersenne Twister sequence
as the time always increases... I think that solves my problem.

[websnarf]

po*********@yahoo.com wrote:

If you only use a 32 bit seed for a random number generator,
does that mean you can only ever produce a maximum of
2^32 (approx 4 billion) different sequences?

What about the Mersenne Twister, with it's massive period
of 2^19937-1. Will you only ever have access to a tiny
portion of this ring of numbers, if you only use a 32-bit seed?
Will this set of sequences be confined to the beginning of the
period, ie, your sequence will have to start at some place
between index number 1 and 4 billion of the period (ignores
all the possible data after this)?.

The Mersenne Twister starts with a massively large cycled sequence of
2^19937-1 numbers (it repeats after requesting that many random numbers
in order.) The way it is seeded, each one of the possible 2^32 seeds
is mapped to its own starting point within this cycle. So there are
2^32 sequences, each of which is 2^19937-1 in length, and in fact are
just shifted version of each other. BTW, (2^19937-1) / 2^32 is still
really huge, but I don't know that any pair of seeds doesn't overlap a
lot sooner -- maybe there is more information in the original paper
describing it.

So the seed does not embody the entire internal entropy which generates
the output.

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

[websnarf]

Keith Thompson wrote:

po*********@yahoo.com writes:

(ignores all the possible data after this)?. this should have read:
(ignores all the possible "starting points" after this)?.

I would suggest that your possibly get 2^32 sequences with 2^19937-1
number of elements in each.

That's kind of what I thought. It seems fairly limited.
However, I just realised the Mersenne Twister c code
provided by it's inventors allows for longer seeds.

"Those who need initial seed with more than 32-bit
length may use init_by_array() for initialization which
admits an array of arbitrary length as seeds"

I guess you could use an array seeded with the time,
the process ID, and some compressed info from
/dev/random or /dev/audio. Still I imagine it would
still be very difficult to guarantee starting points
distibuted uniformly around the ring of numbers?

<OT>
If you have /dev/random, why would you bother with the time, the
process ID, or /dev/audio?

http://www.pinkas.net/PAPERS/gpr06.pdf
For that matter, if you have /dev/random, it's not entirely clear you
need to bother with a Mersenne Twister (but the question is beyond my
expertise).

Because Entropy is typically slow/expensive to obtain, while PRNGs are
generally very fast. Most typically you can only get new entropy a
some slow rate like no more than 10 samples per second (if, say, you
are tracking mouse movement, or key presses) while a PRNG can be
computed with speeds proportional to the speed of the CPU. So its like
asking what you need a disk for if you have lots of memory.

Its actually kind of curious -- CPU manufacturers have actually been
looking at building circuit-level entropy generators, which of course,
would completely nullify the problem, but software solutions have been
getting better over time to the point, where direct hardware support
may be overkill.

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

[Eric Sosman]

po*********@yahoo.com wrote On 05/16/06 03:38,:

A reproducible seed (and a subsequent reproducible
sequence) can be of value. Consider testing a module by
throwing pseudo-random data at it; when a failure turns
up you'd like to be able to regenerate the exact same data
as part of verifying your fix.

Agreed. I intend testing my algorithms and simulations
using a fixed unchanging seed, so I can see how changes
affect the system. However, once I am satisfied that all is
well, I would like to switch in a more unpredictable seed, to
expand my range of possible tested sequences.

/* for your info I am doing simulation of card playing
strategies. At first I will deal the same sequence of hands
over and over to a lot of different strategies. Once I have
identified what is a good strategy and why (by examining
reproducible data from a fixed seed) I will then move onto
unreproducible data to see how the strategies fare in the
"real world". */

Similar techniques can be found nowadays in games, where
it is common to generate and discard a pseudo-random value
each time the program polls its input devices; the eventual
sequence used in the main part of the program thus depends in
part on the delays in keystroke, mouse, or joystick timings,
generally considered unpredictable if not downright twitchy.

I hadn't thought of user input as a seed, although for a fixed
set of actions (such as typing a few inputs) the variance of the
seed could be limited.

I think you've misunderstood: The idea isn't to use these
little timing variations as seeds, but as perturbations to a
deterministic sequence that's seeded elsewhere. By throwing
away an unpredictable quantity of numbers every so often,
you change the deterministic sequence

X1, X2, X3, X4, ...

into the much less predictable

X1, X2, X9, X10, X11, X42, ...

--
Er*********@sun.com