Idiotic question of an Idiot - dint like dont reply.

[novice]

I dint find a proper group to post this,
so i'm asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

[Vladimir S. Oka]

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this,
so i'm asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"
by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie. Read the book, and do all
the exercises. Practice on real world problems. Follow c.l.c. Others
are likely to add to this list.

--
BR, Vladimir

[Richard Heathfield]

Vladimir S. Oka said:

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this,
so i'm asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"

Another good place to start would be any place that teaches good manners. If
he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not answer, but I expect good
questions from novices.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)

[pemo]

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this,
so i'm asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

I always think that a good way to start is to think of small small /tools/
that you could write and use later, for example, perhaps write a program
that can replace tab characters in a .c file source file with a user
configurable number of space characters - and/or the reverse of course.
--
==============
Not a pedant
==============

[Vladimir S. Oka]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Vladimir S. Oka said:

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this,
so i'm asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"

Another good place to start would be any place that teaches good manners. If
he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not answer, but I expect good
questions from novices.

Agreed.

I'm always in two minds about pointing manners to such posters, as they
tend to fight back.

<OT on><PC off>
I blame it on this new "respect" culture. Suddenly, one does not earn
respect through one's actions, but is rather born with it, together
with a healthy dose of /disrespect/ towards any other not of the same
ilk.
</PC></OT>

[A. Sinan Unur]

"novice" <sa*******@gmail.com> wrote in news:1142421410.477165.213000
@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:

Subject: Idiotic question of an Idiot - dint like dont reply.
A first step would be not to call yourself an idiot unless you genuinely
believe that ... in which case, you have no business programming.
I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

Start with smallest possible program you can possibly write -- that is
why we have "Hello World". That will help you get started.

Read the appropriate FAQ lists. Lurk here, and attempt to work on
questions others post. Compare your solutions with the ones posted by
regulars. Learn from your mistakes.

Don't expect to be able to write flawless programs overnight. Value the
public critique of the code you post.

That'll be a good start.

Sinan

--
A. Sinan Unur <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)

[Rod Pemberton]

"novice" <sa*******@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@e56g2000cwe.googlegr oups.com...

I dint[sic] find a proper group to post this,
so i'm[sic] asking this question. If you think
this question is irrelevent[sic] then dont[sic] answer,
but i[sic] expect good replies from experts.
Not everyone here is an expert. People here are at many different skill
levels. You don't have the right to expect anything from anyone, although
most will try to accomodate your request.
I wondor[sic], how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
1) be passionate for the things you do
2) learn how to excel at what you're passionate about
3) don't waste time, i.e., don't do the things you don't care about, unless
needed to fulfill 2)
4) practice makes (near) perfect
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor[sic] how to master C.
Should i[sic] study theory, or start writing programs?
If i[sic] should start writing programs, What programs should i[sic] start with? Where should i[sic] find the proper materials.
(At least capitalize your "I" 's. It gives importance to you. You are
somebody.)

Start by programming something related what you need, want, or enjoy:
1) utilities
2) games
3) checkbook
4) calculator
5) sports
6) cars

Pick an OS and a compiler. Read the manuals. Write something. Learn how
to enable warnings and error messages when you compile. Correct the
mistakes. Repeat. Practice does make near perfect. I can't solve the
physics problems today, that I solved in HS due to lack of practice.

Learn how you solve problems. Do you start with a simple outline and then
prefer to fill in progressively or do you prefer to start with all the stuff
you want and work back? Download other people's code and see if you can
understand what they are doing.
I wondor[sic], how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.

I started by:
1) getting straight A's
2) learning programming on my own and through school
3) taking AP courses
4) taking standardized tests
5) doing all homework
6) solving other in the book non-homework problems
7) correcting teachers when they made mistakes or when they asked where they
had made their mistake
8) after taking a standardized test, finding an error in said standardized
test (I scored so high they thought I had cheated), that had been given for
15 years and reviewed by PHD's and numerous college students (transcription
error on their part)
9) knowing the nature of people (1/3 are agreeable, 1/3 are assholes, 1/3
are alcoholics)
10) working late to solve a two month problem from incompetent asshole
manager who said it was needed in two weeks. So I did it in one day, only
to find said manager asking for it after two days, as I expected.
11) not working on two hour problem by same incompetent asshole manager who
said it was needed in four weeks until the day it was needed.
Rod Pemberton

[kishore_mca330]

to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a computer
but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any author but it must
not my dennis ritche its very hard to understand even though he is an
expert

[Vladimir S. Oka]

ki************@yahoo.com wrote:

to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a computer
but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any author but it must
not my dennis ritche its very hard to understand even though he is an
expert

To be a master in anything, it's important to be prepared to make an
effort. For example:

- make an effort to properly capitalise
- make an effort to use punctuation
- make an effort to post properly, quoting context

Before posting here again, read and heed:

- <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
- <http://www.clc-wiki.net/wiki/Introduction_to_comp.lang.c>

BTW, there's nothing wrong with K&R2, provided one really wants to make
an effort learning C.

--
BR, Vladimir

[Richard Heathfield]

ki************@yahoo.com said:

to ba a c master its better to

How long have you been a C master?

I don't wish to discourage you in your quest to become one, but until you
are one, it might be better not to explain how to become one, in case you
turn out to be wrong.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)

[santosh]

ki************@yahoo.com wrote:

to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a computer
but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any author but it must
not my dennis ritche its very hard to understand even though he is an
expert

How can one claim to be a "master" at something, without understanding
it's most difficult and intricate parts?

As an aside, a "master" of SMS speak is needed, just to decipher your
post. Please try to use proper spelling and punctuation, if not
grammar, in posts to USENET. Posts like the above are one of the
fastest ways to lose whatever credibility you might otherwise have
enjoyed.

By the way, even though some of the exercises in K&R's book may be a
little difficult, they are really stimulating and challenging to anyone
who genuinely likes programming and the C language.

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <11**********************@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups .com> "novice" <sa*******@gmail.com> writes:

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?

Depends. When you have thorough previous experience with other computer
languages you might master it by just trying. But I do not know whether
that is really efficient (although I mastered the languages I use by just
this method, except the very first one, Algol 60).

When you do not have thorough previous experience, it is better to go
both ways at the same time. Study the theory (i.e. text books about the
language) and at the same time try to write programs.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[John Bode]

novice wrote:

I wondor, how these guys who answer
to complicated questions have mastered C.
Many years of bitter, painful experience.
I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
Programming is a skill, and all skills require practice. In order to
learn how to write code, you must write code. Of course, you must also
have at least one, preferably two good references with you while you
are learning. Kernighan and Ritchie's "The C Programming Language,"
2nd ed., is a good start. I also like Harbison & Steele's "C: A
Reference Manual". There are a few other good ones, but beware: the
vast majority of books and websites on the C language are worthless.
If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
Where should i find the proper materials.

K&R2 has exercises after each chapter. Once you've done a few of the
exercises, you should start getting a feel for what you can do.

[CBFalconer]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Vladimir S. Oka said:

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
answer, but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
should start writing programs, What programs should i start
with? Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
Edition"

Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
answer, but I expect good questions from novices.

I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
difficulties. Somehow I suspect that his English is better than my
<whatever he was brought up on>.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

[CBFalconer]

santosh wrote:

ki************@yahoo.com wrote:

to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a
computer but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any
author but it must not my dennis ritche its very hard to
understand even though he is an expert

How can one claim to be a "master" at something, without
understanding it's most difficult and intricate parts?

As an aside, a "master" of SMS speak is needed, just to decipher
your post. Please try to use proper spelling and punctuation, if
not grammar, in posts to USENET. Posts like the above are one of
the fastest ways to lose whatever credibility you might
otherwise have enjoyed.

By the way, even though some of the exercises in K&R's book may
be a little difficult, they are really stimulating and
challenging to anyone who genuinely likes programming and the C
language.

Not to mention that it is one of the clearest language expositions
available for any language. Not the most verbose though. You are
allowed to stop and thing between paragraphs. Its clarity probably
has a great deal to do with the general ascendence of C as a
programming language.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

[Richard Heathfield]

CBFalconer said:

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Vladimir S. Oka said:

novice wrote:

I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
answer, but i expect good replies from experts.

I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
should start writing programs, What programs should i start
with? Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
Edition"

Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
answer, but I expect good questions from novices.

I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
difficulties.

I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get word
order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc), or
perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But they don't
make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into "wondor". (They
are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)

No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
properly.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)

[Vladimir S. Oka]

On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
<dv**********@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

CBFalconer said:

Richard Heathfield wrote:

Vladimir S. Oka said:
novice wrote:

> I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
> question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
> answer, but i expect good replies from experts.
>
> I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
> have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
> C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
> should start writing programs, What programs should i start
> with? Where should i find the proper materials.

A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
Edition"

Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
answer, but I expect good questions from novices.

I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
difficulties.

I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get
word order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc),
or perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But
they don't make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into
"wondor". (They are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)

No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
properly.

English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
I tend to side with Richard on this one.

It's the general demeanour that suggests lack of effort at best. Bad
English may feel clumsy, but rarely disrespectful or offensive. I'll
grant you that OP is not the worst I've seen here recently.

--
BR, Vladimir

A mind is a wonderful thing to waste.

[Dik T. Winter]

In article <dv**********@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <no****@btopenworld.com> writes:

On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
<dv**********@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

....

I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get
word order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc),
or perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But
they don't make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into
"wondor". (They are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)

No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
properly.

English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
I tend to side with Richard on this one.

I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
a system based in New Delhi...
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, [phone]
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Ben C]

On 2006-03-16, Dik T. Winter <Di********@cwi.nl> wrote:

In article <dv**********@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <no****@btopenworld.com> writes:

On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
<dv**********@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

...

[...] this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own
language properly.

English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
I tend to side with Richard on this one.

I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
a system based in New Delhi...

Anyway, whatever the reasons, it's not fair to be mean to people just
because they can't spell.

I appreciate there are good reasons for keeping up the standard of the
postings; but a rank beginner asking "how do I get started?", as the OP
was, seems to me an honest question that deserves a decent response,
like the ones many people have given.

It's at the very beginning of learning something that you most need to
ask for help.

[Vladimir S. Oka]

Ben C wrote:

On 2006-03-16, Dik T. Winter <Di********@cwi.nl> wrote:

In article <dv**********@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <no****@btopenworld.com> writes:

On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
<dv**********@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

...

> [...] this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own
> language properly.

English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
I tend to side with Richard on this one.

I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
a system based in New Delhi...

Anyway, whatever the reasons, it's not fair to be mean to people just
because they can't spell.

I appreciate there are good reasons for keeping up the standard of the
postings; but a rank beginner asking "how do I get started?", as the OP
was, seems to me an honest question that deserves a decent response,
like the ones many people have given.

It's at the very beginning of learning something that you most need to
ask for help.

I don't think spelling and grammar are at issue here. Everyday I work,
and live, with people who get these wrong. I still don't normally get
this feeling that the "tone of voice" (admittedly hard to put across
online) is somehow wrong. Maybe it's a spoken vs written difference,
but then not all of the posts here trigger it (it's actually a
vanishing minority).

--
BR, Vladimir

[Richard Heathfield]

Vladimir S. Oka said:

I don't think spelling and grammar are at issue here.

They became so only because someone pointed them out, and thus the analysis
started. But we see a gazillion articles a day with bad spelling and
grammar, and in general we don't worry about it. (And rightly so.)

What was at issue was the attitude, which might be paraphrased along these
lines: "hey, you, give me what I need, and if you can't, drop dead." Well,
not quite as bad as that, perhaps, but it certainly had a very aggressive
flavour.

On the spelling/grammar thing: we shouldn't forget that we adopt spelling
and grammar rules for a *reason* - i.e. to facilitate smooth and seamless
communication. It is true that it takes W seconds longer to write an
article if you choose to take time and trouble to get the grammar and
spelling right - but these W seconds are well-spent, as putting your
article into a reasonably canonical form will save every single one of your
N readers an average of R seconds each in "decoding" the article.

If W < N * R, as it generally is, then the result is an overall time saving
for humanity.

Also remember that, if you need help, it's a good idea not to jar off the
people from whom you are asking that help! Nobody is going to care about
the odd tyop, because most of us can easily glark what is meant from the
context, but when someone systematically sets out to be as opaque as
possible, 50m3 d00D5 g37 4 1i771e 4nn0y3d, and with good reason.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)

[Richard Bos]

Ben C <sp******@spam.eggs> wrote:

On 2006-03-16, Dik T. Winter <Di********@cwi.nl> wrote:

In article <dv**********@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <no****@btopenworld.com> writes:

On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
<dv**********@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

...

> [...] this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own
> language properly.

English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
I tend to side with Richard on this one.

I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
a system based in New Delhi...

Anyway, whatever the reasons, it's not fair to be mean to people just
because they can't spell.

It is, however, quite fair to be mean to people just because they're too
bluidy lazy to use a spill chucker.

Never mind the shown attitude of "don't give me answers I don't like".

Richard

[CBFalconer]

Richard Heathfield wrote:

.... snip ...
On the spelling/grammar thing: we shouldn't forget that we adopt
spelling and grammar rules for a *reason* - i.e. to facilitate
smooth and seamless communication. It is true that it takes W
seconds longer to write an article if you choose to take time
and trouble to get the grammar and spelling right - but these W
seconds are well-spent, as putting your article into a
reasonably canonical form will save every single one of your N
readers an average of R seconds each in "decoding" the article.

In general I take the time to reformat quotations to a reasonable
line length, and remove crud from attributions. I hope this
results in people expecting to see a readable article when my name
is on it.

I know that whenever I see an article with wrapped overlong lines,
and a general mess, my first reaction is "next".

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

[Ravi Nakidi]

Start writing programs and read simple books until u aware of C