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new programmer

hi,
i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.

Feb 19 '06 #1
31 1502
Practise!

Feb 19 '06 #2
amruta wrote:
hi,
i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.


This newsgroup deals only with the C language as specified by it's ISO
standards. comp.programming might be a better place for you.

<OT>
In general, achieving a modicum of expertise in programming, (if it is
possible at all), requires a strong grasp of the fundamentals of
mathematics, logic and the ability to deal effortlessly with various
levels of abstraction and strong abilities of conceptualisation. As in
any other major work, it takes years of practise and patience. There
are no shortcuts, atleast none which won't backfire under duress.
</OT>

Feb 19 '06 #3
amruta wrote:

i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.


I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.

People here are very tolerant of language barriers, but highly
intolerant of such abortions as 'u' for 'you'. Usenet is not a
chat room.

Since you are using google, before posting again please read my sig
following, and read the referenced URLs.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>
Feb 19 '06 #4
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
amruta wrote:

i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.


I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.


I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".

Feb 19 '06 #5
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
amruta wrote:

i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.


I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.


I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


Programming requires even more discipline than writing in English;
compilers don't forgive minor errors. (Actually, particularly in C,
they sometimes do, but the result isn't likely to be a close
approximation of what you intended.)

More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the very
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
read both the code and the comments.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Feb 19 '06 #6
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
amruta wrote:

i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.

I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.
I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


Programming requires even more discipline than writing in English;


Only in that our brains are forgiving computers.
compilers don't forgive minor errors. (Actually, particularly in C,
they sometimes do, but the result isn't likely to be a close
approximation of what you intended.)
Whatever.

More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and
Actually, I have communicated with programmers for years : many of
whom have very poor English. The medium was the system/language being discussed.
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very
If English is your first language.
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English. Maybe you are too important and dont have
enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.
--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 19 '06 #7
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:

[...]
More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and


Actually, I have communicated with programmers for years : many of
whom have very poor English. The medium was the system/language
being discussed.
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very


If English is your first language.
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English. Maybe you are too important and dont have
enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.


This kind of thing has come up here many times before. We're
generally willing to make allowances for people whose first language
isn't English. What we don't tolerate is silly abbreviations like "u"
for "you". These aren't (I think) the result of English being a
second language; I think they're probably common in short text
messaging.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Feb 19 '06 #8
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> wrote in
news:45************@individual.net:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
amruta wrote:
>
> i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
> i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language,
> how u can be master in any languages.
> can any one help me.

I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.

I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".
.... More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and


Actually, I have communicated with programmers for years : many of
whom have very poor English. The medium was the system/language being
discussed.
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write
in standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very


If English is your first language.


Especially if English is not your first language.
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able
to read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English. Maybe you are too important and dont have
enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.


u shd rd mre if ur bks!

I cannot exactly replicate the weird writing I have come across, but I
remember sentences that were similar to the one above. Now what on God's
Green Earth does that mean?

It is easier for a native speaker to recognize the patterns. Not being
one myself, I prefer to read material that immediately makes sense
because it follows the rules and patterns of the language as I have
learned them.

Note that CBFalconer was not complaining about bad grammar/vocabulary.
Those kinds of mistakes happen when one is typing. For example, I think
he wrote 'abortions' when he had, in fact, intended to type
"abominations".

No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.

Sinan

--
A. Sinan Unur <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)
Feb 19 '06 #9

"A. Sinan Unur" <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn****************************@127.0.0.1...
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> wrote in
news:45************@individual.net:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
> amruta wrote:
>>
>> i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
>> i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language,
>> how u can be master in any languages.
>> can any one help me.
>
> I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
> correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
> words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
> communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
> want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
> full-stops.

I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice". ... More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and
Actually, I have communicated with programmers for years : many of
whom have very poor English. The medium was the system/language being
discussed.
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write
in standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very


If English is your first language.


Especially if English is not your first language.
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able
to read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English. Maybe you are too important and dont have
enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.


u shd rd mre if ur bks!

I cannot exactly replicate the weird writing I have come across, but I
remember sentences that were similar to the one above. Now what on God's
Green Earth does that mean?


"You should read more if [sic,of] you're books."
It is easier for a native speaker to recognize the patterns. Not being
one myself, I prefer to read material that immediately makes sense
because it follows the rules and patterns of the language as I have
learned them.
Most of the good programmers I've known are terrible in English but strong
in Mathematics. Like you said, it's not an issue for native English
speakers who can comprehend the text as long as the first and last letters
are correct and some consonants are present. Links to Graham Rawlinson's
work in psycholinguistics:

http://www.newscientist.com/article....mg16221887.600
http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/...rawlinson.html
Note that CBFalconer was not complaining about bad grammar/vocabulary.
Those kinds of mistakes happen when one is typing. For example, I think
he wrote 'abortions' when he had, in fact, intended to type
"abominations".
No. That's not a grammar/vocabulary problem. It's a psycholinguistic error
which is known as a "Freudian slip."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip
No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.


English is a dynamic language. It does change. SMS/IM is driving a change
right now...
Rod Pemberton
Feb 19 '06 #10
"Rod Pemberton" <do*********@sorry.bitbucket.cmm> wrote in
news:dt**********@news1.greatnowhere.com:

"A. Sinan Unur" <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn****************************@127.0.0.1...

....
u shd rd mre if ur bks!

I cannot exactly replicate the weird writing I have come across, but
I remember sentences that were similar to the one above. Now what on
God's Green Earth does that mean?


"You should read more if [sic,of] you're books."


"your books". ;-)
Note that CBFalconer was not complaining about bad
grammar/vocabulary. Those kinds of mistakes happen when one is
typing. For example, I think he wrote 'abortions' when he had, in
fact, intended to type "abominations".


No. That's not a grammar/vocabulary problem. It's a psycholinguistic
error which is known as a "Freudian slip."


Same difference. What I mean was that we are not worried about the
occasional wrong word, or broken sentence.
No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.


English is a dynamic language. It does change. SMS/IM is driving a
change right now...


Of course, all languages change all the time. However, judging from the
posts in this group, I am happy to say that the move towards SMS/IM
spelling has not completely overpowered other forms.

Sinan

--
A. Sinan Unur <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)
Feb 20 '06 #11
A. Sinan Unur wrote:
"Rod Pemberton" <do*********@sorry.bitbucket.cmm> wrote in
news:dt**********@news1.greatnowhere.com:
"A. Sinan Unur" <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn****************************@127.0.0.1...

...
u shd rd mre if ur bks!
<snip>
Note that CBFalconer was not complaining about bad
grammar/vocabulary. Those kinds of mistakes happen when one is
typing. For example, I think he wrote 'abortions' when he had, in
fact, intended to type "abominations".

No. That's not a grammar/vocabulary problem. It's a psycholinguistic
error which is known as a "Freudian slip."


Same difference. What I mean was that we are not worried about the
occasional wrong word, or broken sentence.


Agreed.
No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.

English is a dynamic language. It does change. SMS/IM is driving a
change right now...


Of course, all languages change all the time. However, judging from the
posts in this group, I am happy to say that the move towards SMS/IM
spelling has not completely overpowered other forms.


I've seen a few (somewhere between two and five) people claiming that
English is moving towards SMS speak, but I see far less evidence of it
than other things which still are not considered acceptable. So although
I agree that all living languages evolve I don't believe SMS/IM is
currently a driving force.
--
Flash Gordon
Living in interesting times.
Web site - http://home.flash-gordon.me.uk/
comp.lang.c posting guidlines and intro -
http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Intro_to_clc
Feb 20 '06 #12
Keith Thompson wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-19, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
amruta wrote:

i m new in programming.at present i m learning computer languages.
i just want to know how u can develop a skills of any language, how u
can be master in any languages.
can any one help me.

I suggest you start by learning to capitalize and punctuate
correctly in English, not to mention the proper spelling of such
words as 'you' and the use of the apostrophe '. This makes your
communications MUCH easier to read, and I'm assuming you really do
want other people to read them. Note the use of blank space after
full-stops.


I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


Programming requires even more discipline than writing in English;
compilers don't forgive minor errors. (Actually, particularly in C,
they sometimes do, but the result isn't likely to be a close
approximation of what you intended.)

More directly, communicating with fellow programmers requires some
language skills. Many of us are unwilling to spend extra time and
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the very
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
read both the code and the comments.


I said as much in a paragraph Riley snipped, i.e.:
People here are very tolerant of language barriers, but highly
intolerant of such abortions as 'u' for 'you'. Usenet is not a
chat room.


--
Some useful references about C:
<http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>
<http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
<http://benpfaff.org/writings/clc/off-topic.html>
<http://anubis.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n869/> (C99)
<http://www.dinkumware.com/refxc.html> (C-library}
<http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/> (GNU docs)
<http://clc-wiki.net> (C-info)
Feb 20 '06 #13
"Keith Thompson" <ks***@mib.org> wrote in message
news:ln************@nuthaus.mib.org...
This kind of thing has come up here many times before.


I've been thinking about this a lot in the last month or so. In part due to an
argument in the real (face-to-face) world with someone over what the hell they
mean in an SMS they sent me, and in part because of the frequent admonitions
not to do it in this group.

Another, and perhaps far more important, reason occurred to me a week or so
back and I've been watching several groups I'm involved in to see if it's true,
and it seems to be.

Specifically, an important part of participating in a usenet group is to comply
with it's culture. You stay within whatever it's culture says are the limits
for how far off topic messages can be, you do or don't post binaries to the
appropriate groups, if the group uses almost nothing but short messages, you
don't jump in post long ones, if it says "only post code you've compiled," you
do it that way. All those obvious things. Another factor is that you deal
with the group the way it's culture works. In this (and a few other groups)
it's pretty damn clear that using this sort of posting is considered bad form.
If you've lurked for even a few days before posting, this point HAD to have
become clear. If you didn't lurk first, in itself bad form in any group, then
you get a not particularly nasty chiding from one of the regulars. If you're
grown up about it, you look around, see that you're NOT being singled out, and
say to yourself, "oh, oops" and you move on.

- Bill
Feb 20 '06 #14
On 2006-02-19, A. Sinan Unur <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote:
No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.

Sinan


No where did anyone say that cryptic postings were easier to
understand.


--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 20 '06 #15
Hello,

Richard G. Riley schrieb:
I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.
Markus.
Feb 20 '06 #16
On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <ma****@pithax.net> wrote:
Hello,

Richard G. Riley schrieb:
I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.
Markus.


No one said anything else.

I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.

If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.

This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.

BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)

--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 20 '06 #17
On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.


The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
rooms. Are you?

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
Feb 20 '06 #18
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <ma****@pithax.net> wrote:
Richard G. Riley schrieb:
I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".


I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.


No one said anything else.

I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.

If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.

This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.

BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)


Writing "the try of writing" vs. "trying to write" is exactly the kind
of minor error we usually ignore (or at most gently point out) as long
as the meaning is clear enough. The kind of thing we complain about
is specifically the silly little abbreviations that seem to be common
for SMS (short text messages), like "u" and "ur" for "you" and "your",
respectively, along with failure to use capital letters, long strings
of exclamation points, lack of spaces after '.', etc.

I don't believe people use these abbreviations out of ignorance of the
correct words. I think they're perfectly aware that the correct words
are "you" and "your" (or maybe "you're", another minor error that's
generally ignored); they just carry over what might be useful
abbreviations in some contexts and use them here, where they're
insignificantly easier to write and much more difficult to read.

Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Feb 20 '06 #19
On 2006-02-20, Al Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.


The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
rooms. Are you?


I would assume from my "fully compliant" writing style that you could
guess I am not.

Others are. You dont like it? Ignore. I, however, will reply to who I
please when I please and will make my own judgements on what I deem
suitable communications style from international posters.

Now run along and go bully someone else please.

--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 21 '06 #20
On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-20, Markus Pitha <ma****@pithax.net> wrote:
Richard G. Riley schrieb:
I think he was asking about programming languages, but I'm sure your
essay on how perfect English is required will be equally useful. Or
not. I suspect he, as others, will draw his own opinion on your
"advice".

I'm no native speaker too, but I think the try of writing half-decent
English is the least one can do, if one wants to get satisfactory
answers from the poeple in here or in other newsgroups.


No one said anything else.

I was merely pointing out that decent English is not the raison-detre
for this group or the people who are supposedly here to help.

If someones grammar and writing style is not your style then fine :
maybe others can, and do, put up with it and help.

This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.

BTW, it's "trying to write" not "the try of writing" .. :)


Writing "the try of writing" vs. "trying to write" is exactly the kind
of minor error we usually ignore (or at most gently point out) as long
as the meaning is clear enough. The kind of thing we complain about
is specifically the silly little abbreviations that seem to be common
for SMS (short text messages), like "u" and "ur" for "you" and "your",
respectively, along with failure to use capital letters, long strings
of exclamation points, lack of spaces after '.', etc.

I don't believe people use these abbreviations out of ignorance of the
correct words. I think they're perfectly aware that the correct words
are "you" and "your" (or maybe "you're", another minor error that's
generally ignored); they just carry over what might be useful
abbreviations in some contexts and use them here, where they're
insignificantly easier to write and much more difficult to read.

Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.


Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".

And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.

I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.

--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 21 '06 #21
On 21 Feb 2006 15:06:14 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2006-02-20, Al Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006 16:22:18 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
This is an age old argument on usenet. Frankly I dont know where
anyone gets off on dissing somes English/Grammar/Capitalizations/Use
of common abbreviations in a C Language group.


The practices in question are not "common abbreviations", unless you
are one of the group of prepubescents who live and breathe IM and chat
rooms. Are you?


I would assume from my "fully compliant" writing style that you could
guess I am not.

Others are. You dont like it? Ignore. I, however, will reply to who I
please when I please and will make my own judgements on what I deem
suitable communications style from international posters.

Now run along and go bully someone else please.


Bye, now.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
Feb 21 '06 #22
Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:

We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.


Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".

And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.

I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.


Most of us make a sincere effort
to express ourselves as clearly as possible, so,
anyone not making a sincere effort to be clear,
is somewhat insulting.

--
pete
Feb 21 '06 #23
On 2006-02-21, pete <pf*****@mindspring.com> wrote:
Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
>
> We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
> write clearly.
>


Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here. I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will. It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".

And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.

I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.


Most of us make a sincere effort
to express ourselves as clearly as possible, so,
anyone not making a sincere effort to be clear,
is somewhat insulting.


Then dont help them. Frankly I dont find your overly short lines
insulting, so why would you find common 'net abreviations so? Anyway
this has been done to death. You, I and everyone else are entitled to
their own opinions and if you want to ignore someone becuase of a
percieved "laziness" in communication styles then go ahead.

--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 21 '06 #24
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote: [...]
Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.


Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here.


No, I don't believe that I am.
I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will.
I don't care whether you care or not. I do care. If you don't like
that, *you* can ignore *me*.
It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".
I choose to try to help people make themselves understood.
And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.
Great. So what's the problem?
I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.


Whatever.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Feb 21 '06 #25
On 2006-02-21, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> writes:
On 2006-02-20, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:

[...]
Nobody here insists on perfect English (though it's nice for those who
can manage it). We just ask that people make some minimal effort to
write clearly.


Keith, you appear to be missing a vital point here.


No, I don't believe that I am.


No, really. You are. Admittedly I have no standards to fall back to
verify it though.
I simply dont care
: if someone has a question and I can answer it I will.


I don't care whether you care or not. I do care. If you don't like
that, *you* can ignore *me*.
It is not my
style or need to lecture them on their posting "English".


I choose to try to help people make themselves understood.


By telling them to go away and learn better English? Sure. Whatever.

And in no way do I disagree with gently asking someone who posts
gibberish to try to make themselves a little clearer.


Great. So what's the problem?


You don't see the difference do you?
I do support your requests for clear, contextual
content. Abbreviations and capitalizatins are not, however, top of my
hit lists in a programming newsgroup.

We will have to agree to disagree I guess.


Whatever.


Clearly you do not agree to disagree. So no "whatever" really.

--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 22 '06 #26
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very


If English is your first language.


As someone whose first language is not English, I'd like to insert a
hearty "bollocks!" here.
least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English.


I do - for normal spelling mistakes. Not for SMS abbreviations and
junior high punctuation. Not using any capitals is _not_ a mistake, it's
a lack of effort.

Richard
Feb 22 '06 #27
A. Sinan Unur wrote:
"Rod Pemberton" <do*********@sorry.bitbucket.cmm> wrote in
news:dt**********@news1.greatnowhere.com:

"A. Sinan Unur" <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xn****************************@127.0.0.1...

...
u shd rd mre if ur bks!


"You should read more if [sic,of] you're books."


"your books". ;-)


[...]
No, his problem was with the intentionally cryptic SMS/IM style
communication which indeed makes it much harder for me to understand
exactly what the poster is talking about.


English is a dynamic language. It does change. SMS/IM is driving a
change right now...


Of course, all languages change all the time. However, judging from the
posts in this group, I am happy to say that the move towards SMS/IM
spelling has not completely overpowered other forms.

Sinan

--
A. Sinan Unur <1u**@llenroc.ude.invalid>
(reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/4663990.stm
Gerard

Feb 22 '06 #28
On 2006-02-22, Richard Bos <rl*@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote:
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
> effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
> standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
> very


If English is your first language.


As someone whose first language is not English, I'd like to insert a
hearty "bollocks!" here.
> least, if I'm going to be reading someone's code, I want to be able to
> read both the code and the comments.


And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English.


I do - for normal spelling mistakes. Not for SMS abbreviations and
junior high punctuation. Not using any capitals is _not_ a mistake, it's
a lack of effort.

Richard


The don't answer them. My point is that I dont care. And I will help
if I can regardless of their grammatical faux pas.


--
Remove evomer to reply
Feb 22 '06 #29
On 19 Feb 2006 22:21:42 GMT, in comp.lang.c , "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
If English is your first language.
Take a quick look: this is an international newsgroup. Usenet
nettiquette requires English to be used.
And I would hope you would give some leeway to someone whose first
language is not English.
Sure, but if i can't understand it then I'll ask them to rewrite it.
Maybe you are too important and dont have
enough time to decipher "missing capitals" : I dont know.


I'm not the one you need to worry about. Its the contract maintenance
droid in ten years time, who can't speak to the original programmer
and has to rely on unintelligible comments written in a long-dead
variant of l33t.
Mark McIntyre
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Feb 22 '06 #30
On 22 Feb 2006 15:21:55 GMT, in comp.lang.c , "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
My point is that I dont care. And I will help
if I can regardless of their grammatical faux pas.


Thats great. In which case, why did you waste all our time starting
this stupid thread?

You're becoming ever more trollish. Soon you'll be under a bridge.
Mark McIntyre
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Feb 22 '06 #31

"Richard Bos" <rl*@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl> wrote in message
news:43*****************@news.xs4all.nl...
"Richard G. Riley" <rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2006-02-19, Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> wrote:
effort deciphering silly abbreviations; making some effort to write in
standard English is both common courtesy and good sense. At the
very


If English is your first language.


As someone whose first language is not English, I'd like to insert a
hearty "bollocks!" here.


They both should've said "American English." That's a hearty "bullshit" for
us Americans. ;)

Rod Pemberton
Feb 22 '06 #32

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