C vs. C++ vs. Java

[mayershome]

Hi!

I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
start learning????
C? C++ or Java`?

greetz

[priyasmita_guha]

Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
And you will C what how that helps.

[santosh]

pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
And you will C what how that helps.

The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
answered in comp.programming among others.

Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
here.

[ambreen_ssuet]

hi there!
i think u sho0uld start wid C language and LET US C is an xcellent
bo0o0ok 4 beginners thn switch to0o c++ n in last to0 java

mayershome wrote:

Hi!

I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
start learning????
C? C++ or Java`?

greetz

[Martin Ambuhl]

am***********@yahoo.com wrote:

hi there!
i think u sho0uld start wid C language and LET US C is an xcellent
bo0o0ok 4 beginners thn switch to0o c++ n in last to0 java

As a useful rule of thumb, ignore anything posted by someone writing
crap like the above. If the poster cannot spell "you", "should",
"with", "excellent", "for", "then", or "too", or, supposing that those
are corrected, put together a simple sentence, then his advice about a
programming language is worthless.

[CBFalconer]

Martin Ambuhl wrote:

am***********@yahoo.com wrote:

i think u sho0uld start wid C language and LET US C is an xcellent
bo0o0ok 4 beginners thn switch to0o c++ n in last to0 java

As a useful rule of thumb, ignore anything posted by someone writing
crap like the above. If the poster cannot spell "you", "should",
"with", "excellent", "for", "then", or "too", or, supposing that
those are corrected, put together a simple sentence, then his advice
about a programming language is worthless.

It does appear to be an excellent example of googlecrap. Very few
posters manage to attain an equivalent degree of obtuse obscure
uselessness.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>

[SM Ryan]

"mayershome" <va*****@arcor.de> wrote:
# Hi!
#
# I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
# start learning????
# C? C++ or Java`?

Pascal. Or Turing. Or something that doesn't bruise your brain
trying to write your first program.

--
SM Ryan http://www.rawbw.com/~wyrmwif/
No pleasure, no rapture, no exquisite sin greater than central air.

[Neil]

mayershome wrote:

Hi!

I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
start learning????
C? C++ or Java`?

greetz

This is the C group.
You would expect us to answer C.
Try the C++ and Java groups see if they prefer their own language.

What are you trying to program PC? Web site, micro controller?
I will affect your choice.

[Michael Mair]

Neil schrieb:

mayershome wrote:

I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
start learning????
C? C++ or Java`?

This is the C group.
You would expect us to answer C.
Try the C++ and Java groups see if they prefer their own language.

What are you trying to program PC? Web site, micro controller?
I will affect your choice.

^^^^
That is a bold promise ;-)
SCNR

@OP: That is about it.
Other people will direct you to safer and cosier languages
with enough abstraction and enough guarantees so that "your
brain is not bruised" as SM Ryan put it.
This may be better if you want to learn about the world as
it should be. Unfortunately, the world is not perfect and
neither are programming languages. Many languages do not have
quirks as unintuitive as C but they do have some.

I found C to be an excellent beginners' language as it gives
you a good impression about "how things are done underneath"
and, if you restrict yourself to C89 or C99, disabuses you
of many illusions. The feedback of people visiting a C course
given by me was similar.
Later on, you come to the wonderful world of object
orientation -- ideally choose a language which does not look
like C as your first object oriented language -- but having
learnt C first helps you to avoid many pitfalls and to see
advantages and disadvantages of certain approaches.
And as soon as you use a script language specially developed
to ease string handling, you know how to be truly thankful
because you have not to do it in C or C++ ;-)

Conclusion: If you learn C first and you learn it thoroughly,
then you most probably end up
- having developed a feeling for what computers do, what is
a good way to put things (e.g. when specifying interfaces)
- having learnt a good dose of humility
- with a good starting point
Cheers
Michael
--
E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <jj*************@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net> ,
Martin Ambuhl <ma*****@earthlink.net> wrote:

am***********@yahoo.com wrote:

hi there!
i think u sho0uld start wid C language and LET US C is an xcellent
bo0o0ok 4 beginners thn switch to0o c++ n in last to0 java

As a useful rule of thumb, ignore anything posted by someone writing
crap like the above. If the poster cannot spell "you", "should",
"with", "excellent", "for", "then", or "too", or, supposing that those
are corrected, put together a simple sentence, then his advice about a
programming language is worthless.

(Channeling Petula Clark...)

Don't piss in the cornflakes, baby.

[Richard Bos]

Neil <Ne*******@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

mayershome wrote:

I'dont have any experiences in programming... what language should I
start learning????
C? C++ or Java`?

This is the C group.
You would expect us to answer C.

You'd expect wrong for several of us. I'd answer neither; instead of
those, try a B&D language like Pascal, which will teach you discipline
before it's too late.

Richard

[Richard G. Riley]

On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
And you will C what how that helps.

The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
answered in comp.programming among others.

Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
here.

It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
will have experience in a wide array of other languages.

To the OP : I would suggest "C" in conjunction with Kernighan and
Ritchies "The C Programming Language" - one of the best instructions
to a language I have read. It will also be a good base for moving onto
the mindset of C++.

I have programmed in C, C++ and Java amongst others and honestly
believe that C gives the best introduction to a language while at the
same time teaching you about primitives and data types that will prove
invaluable in later years and later languages.

But then I hate Java with a passion :)

--
Remove evomer to reply

[santosh]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
And you will C what how that helps.
The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
answered in comp.programming among others.

Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
here.

It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
will have experience in a wide array of other languages.

The regulars here, (naturally excluding me), strongly prefer, (and
rightly so, I must say), that this group remain devoted to the
discussion of the C langauge, as specified by it's standards.

Access to NNTP servers and newsreaders have now been rendered
unneccessary, to those willing to use it, by Google's Web interface.
This has resulted in a large number of posts from newbies, both to the
language and to newsgroups in general, from around the world. They tend
to carry over their SMS and Chat crypticisms and post questions which
would be better answered elsewhere, due to their inexperience and
flippancy.

Thus, for their own benifit, and to help them avoid getting flamed or
ignored, they are redirected and informed. In this regard CBFalconer
and Keith Thompson are particularly active. I reply very ocassionally
to a newbie or two, especially when no one has already replied to them.

Answering questions on a wide variety of topics would result in
comp.lang.c turning into a congested, free-wheeling, Roman Circus,
blunting it's focus and eroding it's usefullness.
But then I hate Java with a passion :)

I concur wholeheartedly :)

[Richard G. Riley]

On 2006-02-20, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

> pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:
>> Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
>> And you will C what how that helps.
>
> The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
> answered in comp.programming among others.
>
> Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
> here.
>
It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
will have experience in a wide array of other languages.

The regulars here, (naturally excluding me), strongly prefer, (and
rightly so, I must say), that this group remain devoted to the
discussion of the C langauge, as specified by it's standards.

The regulars do not own the group and do not own usenet posting
standards. Having said that I agree that decency and "standards" need
to be maintained. Noone would disagree.

It would take a complete idiot to suggest that asking C programmers
how their language stacks up against Java & C++ for beginners is "off
topic" for a C language newsgroup. It might, of course, be a bit
biased though :) ...

There are questions all the time about algorithms too : algorithms are
not "C Language". So lets not get our knickers in a twist here over a
perfectly innocuous post.

Access to NNTP servers and newsreaders have now been rendered
unneccessary, to those willing to use it, by Google's Web interface.
This has resulted in a large number of posts from newbies, both to the
language and to newsgroups in general, from around the world. They tend
to carry over their SMS and Chat crypticisms and post questions which
would be better answered elsewhere, due to their inexperience and
flippancy.
I dont doubt it. But immitation is the sincerest form of
flattery. People learn quick enough. For those persistent types then
there is the killfile. We were all newbies once. And if the people who
feel that is their job to patrol the posts dont like it then there are
always administered forums where their luminance can shine brightest
and undimmed by slightly "OT" posts or newbies using googlegroups.

Thus, for their own benifit, and to help them avoid getting flamed or
ignored, they are redirected and informed. In this regard CBFalconer
and Keith Thompson are particularly active. I reply very ocassionally
to a newbie or two, especially when no one has already replied to
them.
When redirection is valid. In this case it is not IMVHO. Had I felt I
had nothing to offer I would have ignored the post. Had it asked about
Java data types I would have sent them -------> thataway.

Answering questions on a wide variety of topics would result in
comp.lang.c turning into a congested, free-wheeling, Roman Circus,
blunting it's focus and eroding it's usefullness.
Answering a question on the validity of C over the other two for a
newbie is not OT for a C language newsgroup. And, of course, it also
gives a good chance for C advocacy....

But then I hate Java with a passion :)

I concur wholeheartedly :)

:)

--
Remove evomer to reply

[John Bode]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:
> pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:
>> Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
>> And you will C what how that helps.
>
> The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
> answered in comp.programming among others.
>
> Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
> here.
>

It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
will have experience in a wide array of other languages.
The regulars here, (naturally excluding me), strongly prefer, (and
rightly so, I must say), that this group remain devoted to the
discussion of the C langauge, as specified by it's standards.

The regulars do not own the group and do not own usenet posting
standards. Having said that I agree that decency and "standards" need
to be maintained. Noone would disagree.

It would take a complete idiot to suggest that asking C programmers
how their language stacks up against Java & C++ for beginners is "off
topic" for a C language newsgroup. It might, of course, be a bit
biased though :) ...

I guess I'm a complete idiot, then. Comparing the features of multiple
languages is not the same as discussing a particular language.
Secondly, language comparison threads almost always degrade into
language advocacy threads, which are *definitely* off-topic and a waste
of bandwidth here.
There are questions all the time about algorithms too : algorithms are
not "C Language". So lets not get our knickers in a twist here over a
perfectly innocuous post.

I don't see any twisted knickers. I see a terse post redirecting the
OP to where he would get better quality answers.

Access to NNTP servers and newsreaders have now been rendered
unneccessary, to those willing to use it, by Google's Web interface.
This has resulted in a large number of posts from newbies, both to the
language and to newsgroups in general, from around the world. They tend
to carry over their SMS and Chat crypticisms and post questions which
would be better answered elsewhere, due to their inexperience and
flippancy.

I dont doubt it. But immitation is the sincerest form of
flattery. People learn quick enough. For those persistent types then
there is the killfile.

Not through Google, alas.
We were all newbies once.
Yeah, and we were expected to check the FAQ, lurk for a while, and
generally not make asses of ourselves.
And if the people who
feel that is their job to patrol the posts dont like it then there are
always administered forums where their luminance can shine brightest
and undimmed by slightly "OT" posts or newbies using googlegroups.

Okay, there it is. Why the hell is it every time the regulars try to
keep this group minimally on topic, someone always writes *that exact
phrase*?

Thus, for their own benifit, and to help them avoid getting flamed or
ignored, they are redirected and informed. In this regard CBFalconer
and Keith Thompson are particularly active. I reply very ocassionally
to a newbie or two, especially when no one has already replied to
them.

When redirection is valid. In this case it is not IMVHO. Had I felt I
had nothing to offer I would have ignored the post. Had it asked about
Java data types I would have sent them -------> thataway.

Answering questions on a wide variety of topics would result in
comp.lang.c turning into a congested, free-wheeling, Roman Circus,
blunting it's focus and eroding it's usefullness.

Answering a question on the validity of C over the other two for a
newbie is not OT for a C language newsgroup. And, of course, it also
gives a good chance for C advocacy....

That's what *advocacy* groups are for. This is not an advocacy group.

But then I hate Java with a passion :)

I concur wholeheartedly :)

:)

--
Remove evomer to reply

[Richard G. Riley]

On 2006-02-20, John Bode <jo*******@my-deja.com> wrote:

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

> Richard G. Riley wrote:
>> On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:
>> >> Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
>> >> And you will C what how that helps.
>> >
>> > The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
>> > answered in comp.programming among others.
>> >
>> > Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
>> > here.
>> >
>>
>> It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
>> will have experience in a wide array of other languages.
>
> The regulars here, (naturally excluding me), strongly prefer, (and
> rightly so, I must say), that this group remain devoted to the
> discussion of the C langauge, as specified by it's standards.
The regulars do not own the group and do not own usenet posting
standards. Having said that I agree that decency and "standards" need
to be maintained. Noone would disagree.

It would take a complete idiot to suggest that asking C programmers
how their language stacks up against Java & C++ for beginners is "off
topic" for a C language newsgroup. It might, of course, be a bit
biased though :) ...

I guess I'm a complete idiot, then. Comparing the features of multiple
languages is not the same as discussing a particular language.
Secondly, language comparison threads almost always degrade into
language advocacy threads, which are *definitely* off-topic and a waste
of bandwidth here.

As you have proven. I simply provided a simple, quick answer. *shrug*

There are questions all the time about algorithms too : algorithms are
not "C Language". So lets not get our knickers in a twist here over a
perfectly innocuous post.

I don't see any twisted knickers. I see a terse post redirecting the
OP to where he would get better quality answers.

Assuming there are qualified C programmers there. Here is a VALID
PLACE TO ASK C PROGRAMMERS. If you dont like the thread kill it.

Clearly you would not ask in someplace like "linux kernel".

Not through Google, alas.
True and a pain.

We were all newbies once.
Yeah, and we were expected to check the FAQ, lurk for a while, and
generally not make asses of ourselves.

I refer to his OP and my comments.

And if the people who
feel that is their job to patrol the posts dont like it then there are
always administered forums where their luminance can shine brightest
and undimmed by slightly "OT" posts or newbies using googlegroups.

Okay, there it is. Why the hell is it every time the regulars try to
keep this group minimally on topic, someone always writes *that exact
phrase*?

Because there are levels of administration. And because, ufortunately,
in NGs certain people take themselves far too seriously. You can
killfile, ignore or reply. Only in dire trolling cases is it wise to
killfile IMO.

>
> Thus, for their own benifit, and to help them avoid getting flamed or
> ignored, they are redirected and informed. In this regard CBFalconer
> and Keith Thompson are particularly active. I reply very ocassionally
> to a newbie or two, especially when no one has already replied to
>them.
When redirection is valid. In this case it is not IMVHO. Had I felt I
had nothing to offer I would have ignored the post. Had it asked about
Java data types I would have sent them -------> thataway.

>
> Answering questions on a wide variety of topics would result in
> comp.lang.c turning into a congested, free-wheeling, Roman Circus,
> blunting it's focus and eroding it's usefullness.

Answering a question on the validity of C over the other two for a
newbie is not OT for a C language newsgroup. And, of course, it also
gives a good chance for C advocacy....

That's what *advocacy* groups are for. This is not an advocacy group.

Not really. Since all advocacy groups are full of kooks : here should be
full of epxerienced C programmers looking to help the less
enlightened. And I think it is interesting to hear a C programmer
recommened the C LANGUAGE for beginners. Bugger all off topic old chum.

Clearly I have made the mistake of being too open minded in
replying/offering help.

>
>> But then I hate Java with a passion :)
>
> I concur wholeheartedly :)
>

:)

--
Remove evomer to reply

--
Remove evomer to reply

[Al Balmer]

On 20 Feb 2006 09:40:00 GMT, "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:

pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
And you will C what how that helps.

The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
answered in comp.programming among others.

Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
here.

It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
will have experience in a wide array of other languages.

Of course, but c.l.c is a place to discuss the C programming language,
not a place to ask C programmers general questions. After all, many C
programmers are fishermen, too, but we discourage questions about
fishing.

comp.programming is probably a better venue.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

[Flash Gordon]

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, John Bode <jo*******@my-deja.com> wrote:

Richard G. Riley wrote:

On 2006-02-20, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:
Richard G. Riley wrote:
> On 2006-02-18, santosh <sa*********@gmail.com> wrote:
>> pr*************@yahoo.co.in wrote:
>>> Start with C go on to C++ and then on to JAVA.
>>> And you will C what how that helps.
>> The OP's question is not topical to this group. It would be better
>> answered in comp.programming among others.
>>
>> Please try to redirect off topic questions rather than answering them
>> here.
>>
> It is a perfectly valid question to ask C Programmers : many of whom
> will have experience in a wide array of other languages.
The regulars here, (naturally excluding me), strongly prefer, (and
rightly so, I must say), that this group remain devoted to the
discussion of the C langauge, as specified by it's standards.
The regulars do not own the group and do not own usenet posting
standards. Having said that I agree that decency and "standards" need
to be maintained. Noone would disagree.

It would take a complete idiot to suggest that asking C programmers
how their language stacks up against Java & C++ for beginners is "off
topic" for a C language newsgroup. It might, of course, be a bit
biased though :) ...
I guess I'm a complete idiot, then. Comparing the features of multiple
languages is not the same as discussing a particular language.
Secondly, language comparison threads almost always degrade into
language advocacy threads, which are *definitely* off-topic and a waste
of bandwidth here.

As you have proven. I simply provided a simple, quick answer. *shrug*

No, you argued that we should all switch over to your idea of what is
acceptable in the group.

There are questions all the time about algorithms too : algorithms are
not "C Language". So lets not get our knickers in a twist here over a
perfectly innocuous post.

I don't see any twisted knickers. I see a terse post redirecting the
OP to where he would get better quality answers.

Assuming there are qualified C programmers there. Here is a VALID
PLACE TO ASK C PROGRAMMERS. If you dont like the thread kill it.

As has been discussed many times, the effect of allowing off topic
threads is to destroy the group as came close to happening with
comp.lang.c++ a while back.
Clearly you would not ask in someplace like "linux kernel".
Why? Linux Kernel programmers are C programmers since the Kernel is
written in C + extensions, so surely by your argument that is a *great*
place to post the question.

<snip>

We were all newbies once.

Yeah, and we were expected to check the FAQ, lurk for a while, and
generally not make asses of ourselves.

I refer to his OP and my comments.

His OP does not say he has lurked and read the FAQ so I don't see the
relevance to the statement above. Nor did your response point out the
OPs error. So looking at those just shows you and the OP to be in the wrong.

And if the people who
feel that is their job to patrol the posts dont like it then there are
always administered forums where their luminance can shine brightest
and undimmed by slightly "OT" posts or newbies using googlegroups.

Okay, there it is. Why the hell is it every time the regulars try to
keep this group minimally on topic, someone always writes *that exact
phrase*?

Because there are levels of administration. And because, ufortunately,
in NGs certain people take themselves far too seriously. You can
killfile, ignore or reply. Only in dire trolling cases is it wise to
killfile IMO.

This group has a clearly defined focus. If you don't like the focus
there are plenty of other groups you you can create your own.

<snip>
Not really. Since all advocacy groups are full of kooks : here should be
full of epxerienced C programmers looking to help the less
enlightened. And I think it is interesting to hear a C programmer
recommened the C LANGUAGE for beginners. Bugger all off topic old chum.
It is clearly off topic if you bother to lurk and read all the pointer
to topicality around here. I even have one in my sig. From there you
will find links to posts explaining why the group has and maintains a
tight focus.
Clearly I have made the mistake of being too open minded in
replying/offering help.

You have clearly failed to accept the well established focus of the
group when it was pointed out to you.
--
Flash Gordon
Living in interesting times.
Web site - http://home.flash-gordon.me.uk/
comp.lang.c posting guidlines and intro -
http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Intro_to_clc

[newbie]

Typical so many people telling you there opinion while locked in a
battle with other programmers to see who can be the most politically
correct.

My *OPINION* is that this question is not of topic. I do not reglulate
this topic and so I am not going to tell you what IS and what IS NOT of
topic.

C is a good language for beginners. I learned c++ before I learned c
and I wished that I had learnt c first. While Java is very easy to
learn it hides a lot from the beginner which I believe is a bad idea
when you should be learning how the stack works and allocating memory
etc. While c++ is good I think it is easy to be complacent and use
classes without fully understanding them and the underlying code.

Write your first program and see how it feels.

[Mark McIntyre]

On 20 Feb 2006 12:37:10 GMT, in comp.lang.c , "Richard G. Riley"
<rg***********@gmail.com> wrote:

The regulars do not own the group and do not own usenet posting
standards.
Its worth bearing in mind however that the regulars have a much larger
say in how the group operates than say complete new arrivals. I have
*never* seen a noob win a topicality or nettiquette fight with a
regular, in the many years I've been here.
Having said that I agree that decency and "standards" need
to be maintained. Noone would disagree.
Absolutely.
It would take a complete idiot to suggest that asking C programmers
how their language stacks up against Java & C++ for beginners is "off
topic" for a C language newsgroup. It might, of course, be a bit
biased though :) ...

I disagree, mainly because of the last point you make. Do you go to
the Arsenal and ask if Arsenal or Liverpool are a better team?

Mark McIntyre
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Mark F. Haigh]

CBFalconer wrote:

Martin Ambuhl wrote:

am***********@yahoo.com wrote:

i think u sho0uld start wid C language and LET US C is an xcellent
bo0o0ok 4 beginners thn switch to0o c++ n in last to0 java

As a useful rule of thumb, ignore anything posted by someone writing
crap like the above. If the poster cannot spell "you", "should",
"with", "excellent", "for", "then", or "too", or, supposing that
those are corrected, put together a simple sentence, then his advice
about a programming language is worthless.

It does appear to be an excellent example of googlecrap. Very few
posters manage to attain an equivalent degree of obtuse obscure
uselessness.

One time an autoconf configure script of mine became self aware and
muttered something like that through my PC speakers. I yanked the hard
drive out, sprinkled it with holy water, and put it at the feet of a
statue of the virgin Mary for a couple days. After that everything
seemed OK.
Mark F. Haigh
mf*****@sbcglobal.net