Certifications in C.

[rupesh_533]

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh

[ajm]

ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh

Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.

I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
- we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
skills are more mixed perhaps.)

Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
world once you are certified.

hth,
ajm.

[pete]

ajm wrote:

Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
world once you are certified.

I think that most of the regulars here would be unable to take
a C certification exam without being tempted to correct it.

--
pete

[Jaspreet]

ru********@rediffmail.com wrote:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh

C is not owned by a company like Sun has Java or a product aka Visual
Studio.net that there would be an exam for it. You could however try on
www.brainbench.com but as said above most of the freely available tests
on the web would require some amount of corrections.

[Richard Bos]

pete <pf*****@mindspring.com> wrote:

ajm wrote:

Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
world once you are certified.

I think that most of the regulars here would be unable to take
a C certification exam without being tempted to correct it.

And from what I've seen of certification exams (C and otherwise), they
would probably be justified...

Richard

[Joe Estock]

ajm wrote:

ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh

Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.

I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
- we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
skills are more mixed perhaps.)

About 90% of the places around my area go by college education, not by
real-worled experience. I can code circles around any fresh college
graduate, however that seems to amount to exactly squat in real life.
Personaly whenever I hire someone, I hire them based on what they know -
not how they learned it, but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned ;)

Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
world once you are certified.

hth,
ajm.

Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.

Joe

[Rob Adams]

Jaspreet wrote:

ru********@rediffmail.com wrote:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

You could however try on
www.brainbench.com but as said above most of the freely available tests
on the web would require some amount of corrections.

Case in point -- brainbench's sample test includes this question:

Code:
void *ptr;
myStruct myArray[10];

ptr = myArray;

Question:
Which of the following is the correct way to increment the variable
"ptr"?

Choice 1: increment(ptr);
Choice 2: ptr = ptr + sizeof(myStruct);
Choice 3: ptr = ptr + sizeof(myArray);
Choice 4: ++(int*)ptr;
Choice 5: ptr = ptr + sizeof(ptr);

The answer they counted as correct is 2. The sample test is randomly
generated from a fairly small pool of questions. I took it enough times
to find ten or twelve questions, and this is the only bogus question
that I could find.

Rob

[Dennis Willson]

Joe Estock wrote:

<snip>

Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.

Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word
PRODUCTION coding. Most people out of college don't truly understand the simple things like commenting, documentation and most of
all error detection and recovery and that error handling must be planned in advance instead of just coding on and planning to come
back later and do it.

The best college grands that I have worked with, did internships with real companies during their summer breaks so they have real
world experience. Personally I look for experience with real production projects. CS grads generally need to be "re-trained" so they
get rid of all their bad habits.

Some places like degrees instead of people that can get the job done the correct way the first time. Although I have worked at many
places where that's not true, they really need productive people. Most of the really small startups I have worked at prefer people
that get the job done and their not as hung up on diplomas. But there are dis-advantages with really small companies too.

Dennis

[Joe Estock]

Dennis Willson wrote:

[snip]

Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact poor
coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION coding.
Most people out of college don't truly understand the simple things like
commenting, documentation and most of all error detection and recovery
and that error handling must be planned in advance instead of just
coding on and planning to come back later and do it.
Not to mention that they have very little concept of a debugger and if
they do it is very platform specific (e.g., usually Visual Studio). Even
the college I attended (quite well known community college) focused on
Windows development and never even touched the subject of Linux or even
gcc/gdb. While I agree that Visual Studio's built-in debugger is great
for debugging applications targeted for the Windows platform, I am more
familiar with gdb and I can debug an application with gdb twice as fast
as with Visual Studio, however I suppose that comes from experience.

The best college grands that I have worked with, did internships with
real companies during their summer breaks so they have real world
experience. Personally I look for experience with real production
projects. CS grads generally need to be "re-trained" so they get rid of
all their bad habits.
That is always the hardest part of training new employees - breaking the
bad habits they formed (or were instructed to form).

Some places like degrees instead of people that can get the job done the
correct way the first time. Although I have worked at many places where
that's not true, they really need productive people. Most of the really
small startups I have worked at prefer people that get the job done and
their not as hung up on diplomas. But there are dis-advantages with
really small companies too.

Dennis

I would have phrased the above differently. I do not have a degree in CS
(or anything else for that matter), however at the same time I am not
just someone who can "get the job done". Most people that I have worked
with are far more qualified for large-scale jobs for Mr. Corporation
than anyone with a degree under their belt. I've noticed that a lot fo
the prominent companies are now seeking candidates that have both a
degree as well as real-world experience, which leaves us old-timer
developers more or less in the dark when it comes to looking for a
decent job with good benifits. I find it quite irritating that a major
corporation would want to hire some PFY out of college over someone with
several years of hands-on experience. This is one of the main reasons
for some of the huge security vulnerabilities that have been found in
code for widely distributed applications (I won't mention any names,
however it should be obvious).

Joe

[Peter Davies]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:

ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh
Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.

I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to
hear that!

I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
- we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
skills are more mixed perhaps.)

There are many different kinds of smart. That is why we have things such
as university degrees and diplomas in specific fields. Otherwise a simple
IQ test would allow you to get a job as anything from a plumber to a
judge to an astronaut.

Certification is probably best for people who didn't have tertiary studies
in computer science. But seeing as the computing world is so varied, a bit
of certification in the area you want to specialise in can't be a bad
thing at all - regardless of your previous education.

--
Peter Davies

[Richard Bos]

Peter Davies <pe******@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:

ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.

I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to
hear that!

I would not go to a doctor whose highest qualification is a mere
industry certification. Where I live, all doctors must go through the
whole 'versity education, whether they think they can wing the tests or
not; I would be surprised if it were not the same on your island.

Richard

[Peter Davies]

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:39:23 +0000, Richard Bos wrote:

Peter Davies <pe******@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 01:44:04 -0800, ajm wrote:

> ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:
>
>> Can anyone tell me about certifications in C. Is it a good idea to do
>> Certification.
>
> Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.

I'm sure that any resident quacks in your area would be pleased to hear
that!

I would not go to a doctor whose highest qualification is a mere industry
certification. Where I live, all doctors must go through the whole
'versity education, whether they think they can wing the tests or not; I
would be surprised if it were not the same on your island.

That's the point, isn't it? The education and the certification need to go
hand in hand.

I don't believe it's possible to get a bachelor's degree in C programming
- and I would be very wary of anyone who had such a thing. That's where
your industry certification comes into play.

--
Peter Davies

[Michael Wojcik]

[Reformatted to a sane line length.]

In article <TJ******************************@baytsp.com>, Dennis Willson <gi******@taz-mania.com> writes:

Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
coding.

Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
such for hire.

Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
anecdote?

--
Michael Wojcik mi************@microfocus.com

[Default User]

Michael Wojcik wrote:

[Reformatted to a sane line length.]

In article <TJ******************************@baytsp.com>, Dennis
Willson <gi******@taz-mania.com> writes:

Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
coding.

Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
such for hire.

Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
anecdote?

I'll add my anecdotes. The new hires we've gotten in over the past few
years have been pretty good programmers. Naturally, they are not
cognizant of our coding standard and there are things they need to
learn, but on the whole they've been reasonably knowledgeable.

Brian

--
Please quote enough of the previous message for context. To do so from
Google, click "show options" and use the Reply shown in the expanded
header.

[Michael Mair]

Default User wrote:

Michael Wojcik wrote:

[Reformatted to a sane line length.]

In article <TJ******************************@baytsp.com>, Dennis
Willson <gi******@taz-mania.com> writes:

Actually I have found that most people out of college are in fact
poor coders. Colleges (most anyway) don't teach real word PRODUCTION
coding.

Out of curiosity, have you published this comprehensive study of
the capabilities of the graduates of most colleges? I'm sure it
would be useful to many of us who have occasion to consider some
such for hire.

Or is this just another case of making wild generalizations from
anecdote?

I'll add my anecdotes. The new hires we've gotten in over the past few
years have been pretty good programmers. Naturally, they are not
cognizant of our coding standard and there are things they need to
learn, but on the whole they've been reasonably knowledgeable.

Another anecdote:
I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
(ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
"information technology" students of a certain university not far
from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
proficiency with C and programming.
Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
applicants... ;-)
..02 EUR
Michael
--
E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.

[Tim Rentsch]

Michael Mair <Mi**********@invalid.invalid> writes:

....snip...

Another anecdote:
I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
(ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
"information technology" students of a certain university not far
from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
proficiency with C and programming.
Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
applicants... ;-)

Forgive me, I have to ask... Is there a reason for using
"rudimental" rather than "rudimentary", or is it just
what you're used to?

[Michael Mair]

Tim Rentsch wrote:

Michael Mair <Mi**********@invalid.invalid> writes:

...snip...

Another anecdote:
I think this depends, among other things, often on the university
and course, too. Some time ago, I was looking for a programmer
(ideally with good C knowledge). We got many applications from
"information technology" students of a certain university not far
from getting their degree; without exception, not a single one
had even rudimental knowledge of software development let alone
could write a slightly enriched "hello world" application without
referring to books and still getting it wrong -- all of them claimed
proficiency with C and programming.
Due to the waste of time each such interview meant, I was strongly
tempted to exclude this special flavour from the pool of
applicants... ;-)

Forgive me, I have to ask... Is there a reason for using
"rudimental" rather than "rudimentary", or is it just
what you're used to?

Umh, I only had the former in my active vocabulary but not the
latter and was not aware that the phrase most people use is
"rudimentary knowledge"... I just consulted my dictionary and
found that rudimental seems to say the same thing.

So, s/rudimental/rudimentary/

Thanks :-)
Michael
--
E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.

[Neil Kurzman]

Joe Estock wrote:

ajm wrote:

ru********@rediffmail.com schrieb:

Can anyone tell me about certifications in C.
Is it a good idea to do Certification.

-Rupesh

Personally I do not think certification in general is a good thing.
Many vendors (e.g., Oracle, Sun etc.) use certification as a marketing
tool for those who need a comfort blanket. Certification might also
have limited recognition (e.g., private college course certifications)
outside of vendor (read: proprietary) models.

I am also very unconvinced that certification is the deal maker that
many claim it is for getting a job. Most candidates that I have
reviewed are judged on their overall educational merits and if they
don't have C or another language to the required level then we assume
that if we employ smart people it won't be beyond them to figure it out
- we rarely say ok let's take that candidate because (s)he has that
cert (it may be different in other companies or in countries where
skills are more mixed perhaps.)

About 90% of the places around my area go by college education, not by
real-worled experience. I can code circles around any fresh college
graduate, however that seems to amount to exactly squat in real life.
Personaly whenever I hire someone, I hire them based on what they know -
not how they learned it, but hey maybe I'm just old fashioned ;)

Certification has its benefits e.g., It might help as a motivational
aid to a new programmer but don't expect too much to change in your
world once you are certified.

hth,
ajm.

Most places anymore expect a BA or higher, which completely boggles my
mind. Any professional developer here can tell you that you only learn
so much in college. Real world experience is and always will be the best
method of learning. As far as certification goes - shure, knock your
socks off. If wasting money on a framed piece of paper tickles your
fancy and makes you feel better about yourself then go for it. As for
me, I'll hold on to my experience instead.

Joe

It is very simple. A BS says you where taught an Passed a predefined amount
of material.
A better college says you should have been taught better.
No thing say just that. You may or may not be good. More experience makes
proving it easier.
In the end a BS opens more doors. You still have to close the deal.
A C certificate in America is not very impressive on a programmers resume.
my 2 cents.