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P: n/a
....you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

Nov 15 '05 #1
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P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net said:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


It would probably be better to start out by learning a language that was
designed with teaching in mind, such as Pascal. This should teach you some
good habits.

Once you've got the general idea of programming, switch to C, and get a
really, really good book on it, such as "The C Programming Language" (2nd
edition), by Brian W Kernighan and Dennis M Ritchie. Your local bookshop
should carry this, or you can get it from Amazon. Alas, there are plenty of
bad books on C, and you can get those from your bookshop or Amazon too. :-(

The Frequently-Asked Questions list for this newsgroup can be found at
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-FAQ/top.html - and you will find it to be a
most helpful resource.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Nov 15 '05 #2

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?
No, I started with GOTRAN on an IBM 1620
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1620>. C was several years away.
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac. I suggest asking for
suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
comp.lang.c, consider C!

--
Thad

Nov 15 '05 #3

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?
Before 1970:
ALGOL on a CDC 3600;
FORTRAN on a UNIVAC 1107;
MAD, FAP, LISP, and SNOBOL on an IBM 7094 (CTSS);
FORTRAN, PL/1, 360 Assembler, APL on IBM 360;
MACRO-6, MACRO-10, FORTRAN, ALGOL and COBOL on PDP-6 and PDP-10 (TOPS-10
& ITS);
MACRO-8 on PDP-8
PL/1 on a GE 645 (MULTICS);
Added in 1970:
MACRO-11 on PDP-11;
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
Undergraduate degrees in Political Science and Economics from MIT and
Graduate degees in Political Science from Northwestern. This is
misleading: 4 semesters of physics, 3 of chemistry, 6 of electrical
engineering, and 8 in math are hidden behind those undergraduate degrees.
Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?
There is no pedagogical advantage to any flavor of BASIC over a
production language such as C. Pedagogical languages like APL and
Pascal have their uses, but there is the danger of the "first language
syndrome", in which the first language one learns is the standard
against which all others are measured. Just as in the case of the
"first editor syndrome", even the poorly done parts of the first used
language (or editor) acquire a mystique not easy to overcome.
I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming.
Start by concentrating on getting an education, not on your career.
I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

Nov 15 '05 #4

P: n/a
This is a bit off-topic, but...

In article <oc****************@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.n et>
Martin Ambuhl <ma*****@earthlink.net> wrote:
There is no pedagogical advantage to any flavor of BASIC over a
production language such as C. Pedagogical languages like APL and
Pascal have their uses, but there is the danger of the "first language
syndrome", in which the first language one learns is the standard
against which all others are measured.
As it happens, I learned a variant of BASIC first myself. It occurs
to me that the second sentence argues against the first: compared to
that BASIC, most other languages look positively *wonderful*. :-)

(I wrote a number of fairly serious programs in TRS-80 Level II
BASIC, and it taught me quite a lot about the need for dividing
things up so that individual pieces of a solution do not interfere
with each other. As all variables were global, and all subroutines
handled by line-number, this had to be done manually. I kept large
tables of "variable names reserved to various subroutines" and
"subroutine S starts at line L" and so on.)
Start by concentrating on getting an education, not on your career.


Indeed. And when you do get down to specifics in programming,
study as many languages as you can get your hands on.
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W) +1 801 277 2603
email: forget about it http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html
Reading email is like searching for food in the garbage, thanks to spammers.
Nov 15 '05 #5

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


C had not been invented when I started programming, so
I didn't have the option of learning it first. Although C
is probably easier to get started in (and vastly more powerful
than) the FORTRAN II that was my introduction to programming,
I don't think I'd recommend it as a first language for a
beginner. It is a band saw without a blade guard: the perfect
tool for cutting tricky shapes in wood and in fingers.

Baby-talk languages like BASIC or Pascal don't strike me
as a good way to start, either. Both have been morphed into
"serious" languages, but seem top-heavy: too many industrial-
strength features loaded onto inadequate substrates. A kid's
little red wagon is a fine thing, but not the vehicle of choice
for hauling freight cross-country.

Looking at the languages available today, I'd suggest
starting with either Java or some form of Lisp. Both are "real"
languages, but both relieve you of worrying about some of the
trickier aspects of "real" programming, especially memory
management. Also, both come with things like Iterator (Java)
and mapcar (Lisp) that provide canned solutions for some common
and repetitive tasks so you can forget about them for a while
as you concentrate on learning how to reason about a program's
behavior.

Alas, both languages share a serious drawback: Their error
messages are cryptic and likely to baffle a beginner. (By
"cryptic" I don't mean merely "terse:" both languages tend to
produce messages that describe a difficulty in their own terms
and not in terms of the problem space. All computer languages
I've used share this characteristic to some degree, but Java and
Lisp seem a little remoter than most.) The opacity of their
diagnostics may be somewhat offset by the superior debugging
features that lie within the languages themselves.

Of course, all this is a bit speculative on my part. I did
not actually begin my study of programming with either Java or
Lisp, and don't actually know from personal experience how good
or bad they might be. I think, though, that they'd be better
starting points than C -- I started learning C almost thirty years
ago, and I *still* haven't grasped all of it!

--
Eric Sosman
es*****@acm-dot-org.invalid
Nov 15 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:15:28 -0400, <ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?
Well, I'm not an experienced C programmer, but...
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


I started learning programming with QBASIC on an old(er) computer, and did
a bit, but I reached some roadblocks further on in and up. Then, I started
learning Scheme, and a lot of things made more sense to me, and I finally
could make something work. Now I'm learning C, and it's quite fun. I did
attempt to learn C first, but I never really got it working right.
Understanding logic flow in something like Scheme first helped me quite a
bit in being able to at least get things to work in C, even if the way I
did it was inefficient and slow, I'm working on making them efficient and
clean now as well.

As a beginner language, I don't much care for C, or BASIC in any form. I
can't speak from a great deal of experience, but I've always found a Lisp
type language (Scheme) to be really helpful, and probably something like
Pascal, Python, or some such. But once you get into that road, you might
as well start learning C also.

Really, it seems to me that the most important first step is learning how
to program in your mind: how to lay things out, how to segment your
program, how to put ideas into a series of robust steps, how to understand
input and output. The abstract essentials to what goes on before anyone
ever writes any code seem to be missing with more people I meet than just
understanding a language.

- Arctic

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Nov 15 '05 #7

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


I started with Applesoft BASIC on an Apple II Plus, which was a
hand-me-down present from my grandfather on my fifth birthday. I
programmed in Applesoft for a few years, then got a 286 PC with 512 KB
memory, that ran BASICA and QBASIC. I continued to use QBASIC and
subsequently QuickBASIC for many years. I also learnt a little Pascal
while in high school.

I went into a Computing Science degree at the University of Technology,
Sydney. The first language taught was Eiffel, and then C. Through
elective subjects I have also done courses in C++, PHP and Java.

No course can teach you how to program. You have to spend a lot of time
practising, writing hundreds of little programs. Whenever you see or
hear an interesting program, try implementing a solution.

--
Simon.
Nov 15 '05 #8

P: n/a
In article <11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups. com>,
<ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?
FORTRAN IV with WATFOR, if I recall correctly. I learned a bunch
of things in a short time after that, so I can no longer lay out
the order. [Possibly, before the FORTRAN IV, I might have already been
exposed to some programming reference material that didn't say anything about
how to write programs and which had no examples.]
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
This is a different age... the method of study I followed then would
be seriously unfashionable now. A bunch of it came down to
"Have library card; will borrow."
Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?
No! BASIC sets too many bad habits.

I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming.


In recent years, I have run across an essay that says, in all
seriousness, that if you want a good career, then do not go into
computer science: that the field is too flooded already with
programmers who do a "good enough" job; that companies are cutting
back on in-house programming; that companies are outsourcing a
lot of programming jobs to third-world countries... and some other
reasons I do not recall.

If you are looking for a "career", then pick a field which is going to
be in big demand in the timeframe when you are going to be at your
prime -- oh, say, ecological reclamation, water purification science,
geriatic care, species extinction prevention, or pulling companies (or
countries) out of bankruptcy.
The path I followed is not one that can just be rationally "chosen".
You've heard of writers who must write, or painters who must paint...
some of us are programmers because we *must* be so.
--
Okay, buzzwords only. Two syllables, tops. -- Laurie Anderson
Nov 15 '05 #9

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

Best first language to learn? Perl. Once you've coded in perl you'll
gain an entirely new perspective and appreciation for c (and any other
language that is not perl).

Being serious now, I would recommend something that will get you
familiar with the fundamental logic of coding. Specifically I would
recommend a loosly typed language first so you can concentrate on actual
code logic instead of variables. Once you have a firm understanding of
code logic then you can work on variables. Although it is not the
greatest language in the world, PHP is quite easy to learn however it
will at times open bad doors to programming. PHP is more like C++ than
C, however it will certainly help you get used to the basics of writing
code. As long as you avoid the object oriented aspects of PHP I don't
see why it wouldn't at least give you a boost in the right direction.
Even to this day I still use PHP to create a POC (Proof Of Concept)
before I start coding in C. It's easier to track what is going on
because it eliminates the need of a debugger and you don't have to
concentrate on variables; you only need to concentrate on functionality
and design.

Like many of the others here I learned BASIC first (I too programmed on
a TRS-80, among other things). All in al I would say your first task
should be to learn code logic, followed by portability, and finally
variable types and limitations. Perhaps the biggest problem you're going
to run into with programming in C is knowing what variable type to use
where (e.g., unsigned char * or char *, etc).

If you decide to learn C first, more power to you. Everyone needs
somewhere to start out, so why not use the age-old "Hello, World!"
example - but with a twist. If you are going to be coding in C you are
most certainly going to need to use a debugger. Since this newsgroup
deals with only standard C programming I cannot go into compiler or
debugger specifics, however I will leave you with the following code and
task to learn what is going in inside the code.

#include <stdio.h> /* for printf and friends */
#include <stdlib.h> /* for EXIT_SUCCESS, EXIT_FAILURE, etc */

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
int i = 0;

i++; /* set a breakpoint here and examine the value of i */

printf("Hello, World! In my first c program i is now %d\n", i);

/* now, set a breakpoint here and examine the value of i */
printf("Incrementing i using the prefix operator: %d\n", ++i);

/*
* since we might be piped to another program we should
* let whoever called us know that we had a successful
* run
*/
return(EXIT_SUCCESS);
}

You may also experiment with the char type. For example (not a complete
program):

char c = 'a';

printf("c: %c\n", c);

++c;

printf("c (after): %c\n", c);

Best of luck,

- Joe
Nov 15 '05 #10

P: n/a
Walter Roberson wrote:
In article <11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups. com>,
<ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:

<snip>
Would you suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?

No! BASIC sets too many bad habits.


No more than most other languages. Modern Basics really don't resemble
their GOTO-based predecessors of yore, but have all the trappings of
structured languages. REALBasic in particular is an O-O language that's
nothing like an ancient Basic, except for the syntax (I have no personal
experience with it, however).

In fact, it's probably safe to say that as far as software development
goes, picking C would teach you worse habits than something like
REALBasic, since C's support for modularity is so barebones.

S.
Nov 15 '05 #11

P: n/a
In article <11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups. com>,
<ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
I did lots of PL/I, FORTRAN, Pascal, a bunch of specialized languages
(LISP, SNOBOL, SPSS, etc), BASIC, assembler, etc. and tons of COBOL
at school and in a classic mainframe data processing environment before,
but also during, C. Some of it I did not care for, and some of it
I ran from, but all have been important to have been through.
That is to day, the diversity was the key to keeping me open-minded,
able to deal with the different language cultures, etc.
Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


There is no requirement to start with BASIC. I have found that
although the language at hand has big impacts, especially the first
one, that also good instruction, good books, good resources, etc
are just as important, and more so. So while each language has
its limits and presents its own challenges, do note that learning
programming is not just about learning the details of one or
more languages (though again, they can be part of what shapes
our perspectives), but also and more importantly about organization,
problem solving, analytic breakdown, flow and structure and logic,
style, being open minded, thinking things through, understanding
problem domains, etc. Can you start with BASIC and do these
things? Sure. Since you're asking in a C NG, can you start
with C and do so too? Sure. http://www.comeaucomputing.com/booklist
is perhaps one stop to make to look at resources. Obviously there
is this NG. Do realize that programming is hard and everytime
you think it is simple you should try to rediscover yourself
and your skills.
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Nov 15 '05 #12

P: n/a
Thanks! I'll check out the FAQs, too! -gene

Nov 15 '05 #13

P: n/a
I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac. I suggest asking for

suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
comp.lang.c, consider C

Thanks - I appreciate your assistance - noted!

Nov 15 '05 #14

P: n/a
In article <11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
Zoso <ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:
Thanks! I'll check out the FAQs, too! -gene


There's this too: http://www.comeaucomputing.com/learn/faq
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Nov 15 '05 #15

P: n/a
On 29 Oct 2005 18:15:28 -0700, in comp.lang.c ,
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
I learned basic, pascal and Fortran first, in that order. Though I
admit to stopping using Fortran as soon as I could...
Would you suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?


No idea, never played with realbasic. Pascal is a good language to
start with though.

Or if you're on a Mac why not install gcc and play with that and a
good C learning book?

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Nov 15 '05 #16

P: n/a
Thad Smith wrote
(in article
<43***********************@auth.newsreader.octanew s.com>):
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.
Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.
I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac.


OS X is basically BSD UNIX with a nicer than usual window
manager on top of it. Any language available open source is
pretty much available. Apart from Microsoft proprietary
(despite marketing claims to the contrary) language is available
on it. Many come pre-installed or on the distribution DVD.
I suggest asking for
suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
comp.lang.c, consider C!


True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
first language, unless you have a really good teacher. Back in
the day, you started out in assembler first, to understand the
basics of the system, but that doesn't seem to be much in form
any more, and most people /never/ learn the low-level details,
and admittedly don't need to learn them.

For a first language, you might consider something like Ruby,
which is useful for a lot of purposes, relatively clean
syntactically, object-oriented (in a more rational manner than
most) and has a very active development community right now.

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

Nov 15 '05 #17

P: n/a

ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


I started out with logo, moved onto gwbasic, pascal, and then C. But
even then, C is much trickier than it seems. Its a lot easier to 'shoot
yourself in the foot', and can get hard if really don't have a kick-ass
debugger.

So I would suggest something like scheme/python to get started with,
and if you are doing scheme get Dr.Scheme/PLTScheme, it has a decent
IDE, and comes with a bunch of mature libraries to get you doing some
nice stuff.

Though that might teach you what programming in C is like the way a
flight simulator teaches you what flying a f-14 is about. But when
doing C, you would have to worry about a lot more (things that you
shouldn't be worrying about without a very good reason, like say memory
management).

But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..
So it ain't a bed of roses, but if you like the challenge, there ain't
anything that gives such a high as seeing your program working right
(and it lasts till you figure out that evantual bug, or worse, some one
else points it out).

So, with an ominous 'best of luck'.. welcome to programming.

Cheers
Vishnu

Nov 15 '05 #18

P: n/a
In article <11*********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
vishnuvyas <vi********@gmail.com> wrote:
But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..


[OT]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)
[It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
together with "portability".]
--
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman
Nov 15 '05 #19

P: n/a
Walter Roberson wrote:
In article <11*********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
vishnuvyas <vi********@gmail.com> wrote:

But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..

[OT]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)
[It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
together with "portability".]


"With gratitude to my parents, Mother Teresa and the Pope."

Googling for "serial comma" gets you the details of the sordid debate
for and against, of which, as obscure points go, there is of course
plenty. :-)

S.
Nov 15 '05 #20

P: n/a
In article <00*****************************@news.verizon.net> ,
Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
Thad Smith wrote
(in article
<43***********************@auth.newsreader.octane ws.com>):
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?

I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.


IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.
...
True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
first language, unless you have a really good teacher.


IMO, the problem is that this is true of any language.
Obviously some more than others, but often a rock and
a hard place through which to legitamately choose something
truly superior for first language, whatever that means or
should mean anyway.
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Nov 15 '05 #21

P: n/a

Walter Roberson wrote:
In article <11*********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
vishnuvyas <vi********@gmail.com> wrote:
But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..
[OT]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)


Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
bits what type should I actually use).
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman


Nov 15 '05 #22

P: n/a
In article <11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups .com>,
vishnuvyas <vi********@gmail.com> wrote:
Walter Roberson wrote:
In article <11*********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
vishnuvyas <vi********@gmail.com> wrote:
>Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
>compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..
I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)
Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
bits what type should I actually use).


Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
another meaning completely.

As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous. It's the
stereotypical geek anti-socialization effect -- that the more technoid
you become, the fewer friends you make.

The sentance you wanted to write should have an 'and' before
'portability', but there is debate over which of these two to use:

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations and portability and friends..

versus

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, and portability and friends..
--
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman
Nov 15 '05 #23

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:

...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?
Before C I had programmed in BASIC, Pascal, Modula2 and
assembler.
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
I did a Baechelor of Engineering degree in Computer
Engineering.
Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?


Probably no. The BASIC family of langugaes are not
highy reguarded in the programing world.

Python is at least as good a learning language as
BASIC and it will prevent you learning some of
the bad habits that BASIC may teach you.

Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Open Source and Free Software means that you never sacrifice quality
of the code for meeting deadlines set up by people not participating
directly in the software development process.
Nov 15 '05 #24

P: n/a
Greg Comeau wrote
(in article <dk**********@panix1.panix.com>):
In article <00*****************************@news.verizon.net> ,
Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
Thad Smith wrote
(in article
<43***********************@auth.newsreader.octanew s.com>):
What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.


IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.


You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
sure I follow what you intended to say.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

Nov 15 '05 #25

P: n/a
In article <00*****************************@news.verizon.net> ,
Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
Greg Comeau wrote
(in article <dk**********@panix1.panix.com>):
In article <00*****************************@news.verizon.net> ,
Randy Howard <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote:
Thad Smith wrote
(in article <43***********************@auth.newsreader.octanew s.com>):
> What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.


IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.


You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
sure I follow what you intended to say.


You said something won't be of much use and that we probably
don't want to do something. I'm saying it might be of use,
and that we might want to.
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Nov 15 '05 #26

P: n/a

Walter Roberson wrote:
Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
another meaning completely. Thanks for the grammar check.
As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous.


I guess the opposite is rather true, I do get 'You look scary' comments
after a 16hr hackathon ;-)

Cheers
Vishnu.

Nov 15 '05 #27

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net a écrit :
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


82-84 : BASIC (Apple II, Commodore, IBM-PC) (self-learning)
87 : Pascal (The Revelation !) (self-learning)
87 : ASM 86 (course), C (self-learning)
88 : C (course), HP BASIC (HP 9000) (job)
91 : ASM 51 (job)
93 : ASM 68k, some VB.. (job)
94 til now : C (job)

--
C is a sharp tool
Nov 15 '05 #28

P: n/a
Das

ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


Are You serious??? then discuss the pros and cons and field of
application then decide.

If you ask me how i started then, Well there were some stuffs we called
it HC(Home Computers BBC Micro), They have a BASIC Interpreter inside
the ROM. So it it infered i started with BASIC. Then To some other
BASICs e.g BASICA,GWBASIC...
Well Then to FORTRAN(My graduate course included it), Then to PASCAL,
Assembly-x86, C and then C++.

To your surprise i have forgotten all except C and some Assembly Stuff.
And For your information I am learning C and Assembly everyday.

Nov 15 '05 #29

P: n/a
ea***********@earthlink.net wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


If you want to be a programmer, the language you must learn first is
pseudo-code.

The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language you
write your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,
understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logic
correct. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate it
to whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying your
wages.

--
John B

Nov 15 '05 #30

P: n/a
In article <43***********************@master.news.zetnet.net> ,
John B <sp******************@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language you
write your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,
understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logic
correct. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate it
to whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying your
wages.


Although that is generally sound advice, it fails for real-time systems,
embedded systems, and parallel programming: for those, it is crucial
that you consider the target system characteristics when creating
your program design.
--
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman
Nov 15 '05 #31

P: n/a
"Walter Roberson" <ro******@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:dk**********@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca...
In article <43***********************@master.news.zetnet.net> ,
John B <sp******************@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language youwrite your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logiccorrect. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate itto whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying yourwages.
Although that is generally sound advice, it fails for real-time

systems, embedded systems, and parallel programming: for those, it is crucial
that you consider the target system characteristics when creating
your program design.


Yeah. That's good advice for a first time programmer, "Let's make a
microwave oven, kids! Next week, we're gonna program the Hubble
Telescope! SETI needs your help!"

--
Mabden
Nov 15 '05 #32

P: n/a
"Walter Roberson" <ro******@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:dk**********@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca...
In article <11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups. com>,
<ea***********@earthlink.net> wrote:
...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?

Just learn .NET - Any version.

In recent years, I have run across an essay that says, in all
seriousness, that if you want a good career, then do not go into
computer science: that the field is too flooded already with
programmers who do a "good enough" job; that companies are cutting
back on in-house programming; that companies are outsourcing a
lot of programming jobs to third-world countries... and some other
reasons I do not recall.
We have become a commodity. It was once "hard" to program computers
because you had to "read books and stuff". Now all anybody wants is a
web page. How is the "hard". MS Word ca make a web page...
If you are looking for a "career", then pick a field which is going to
be in big demand in the timeframe when you are going to be at your
prime -- oh, say, ecological reclamation, water purification science,
geriatic care, species extinction prevention, or pulling companies (or
countries) out of bankruptcy.
Indeed. Programming is for suckers. China will eat India's lunch in the
next 20 years, write it down. India better find a new job sphere,
because they have invented an idea that will bite their ass.
The path I followed is not one that can just be rationally "chosen".
You've heard of writers who must write, or painters who must paint...
some of us are programmers because we *must* be so.


Unfortunately, not in a good way. Sometimes I feel like the Realist
artist, but everyone has moved on to Surreal...
:-
(

--
Mabden
Nov 15 '05 #33

P: n/a
"Walter Roberson" <ro******@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:dk**********@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca...

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)


You haven't met my friends...

--
Mabden
Nov 15 '05 #34

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