Certification in C

[patrick courant]

Hello everyone,

I am an european freelance engineer, fighting with computer science for too
many years to remember. However, when applying for new missions, I found
that experience is not always enough to convince.

Still humble and weak (and ignorant), I know I will get smart and powerful
(and the first to know) through a certification process (in C language, of
course)

Would the skilled and brilliant C community have an idea where to go and who
to ask? Is there any center well-recognized by the professional market, in
US or elsewhere?

I will be very grateful for any answer, and deeply unhappy for any insult.

PC.

[Mike Wahler]

"patrick courant" <pa*************@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.club-internet.fr...

Hello everyone,

I am an european freelance engineer, fighting with computer science for too many years to remember. However, when applying for new missions, I found
that experience is not always enough to convince.
No, it often is not. Often it's a case of not only citing
what you have done, but convincing them of what you *can and will*
do. You need to make them believe that it's in their best interest
to hire you (and of course if they do, deliver on that promise).

Still humble and weak (and ignorant), I know I will get smart and powerful
(and the first to know) through a certification process (in C language, of
course)
Um, I disagree. Certification does not bestow knowledge and skill.
Studying and practice does that. Knowledge and skill are usually
a prerequisite for 'certification.' Also note that the idea of
'certification' is not standardized, there's no consensus on its
meaning. IOW, certified by whom? Certified to be what?

Would the skilled and brilliant C community have an idea where to go and who to ask?
I'd start by investigating local community colleges and/or
vocational/technical institutions. Personally, I prefer
the private ones over government funded and run ones, but
that will have to be your decision.
Is there any center well-recognized by the professional market, in
US or elsewhere?
Investigate the reputations of various learning institutions.

Inquire of local employers which 'certifications' or 'degrees'
are meaningful to them. Arrange and go to 'informational interviews'
(i.e. not applying for work, but finding out what they do, and what
they need).
I will be very grateful for any answer,
I hope you found mine of some use.
and deeply unhappy for any insult.

You stink!! (Just kidding) :-)

-Mike

[patrick courant]

Well, thank you very much for such a quick and relevant answer.

To speak in earnest (is this still good english?), I was wondering whether
there was something for the C language that could be compared to the Oracle
or Cisco or MicroSoft Certification. (May be not to the same extent, but
still comparable).
Browsing on the net; googling with the word "certification", I found several
sites, generally called "something.org", that proposed certifications on
various subjects, sometimes including "Taking good care of children" as well
as "Java" or "C / C++ programming".

So my thoughts were about: is it worth the (rather small, I would say) price
that is asked for, and the concern of answering a few dozen of questions.

If you have any opinion ...

Still, thank you very much for your concern.

Patrick C.

--> The proof of the cake is in the eating. (depends where you eat). <--
"Mike Wahler" <mk******@mkwahler.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:hl***************@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...

"patrick courant" <pa*************@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.club-internet.fr...

Hello everyone,

I am an european freelance engineer, fighting with computer science for

too

many years to remember. However, when applying for new missions, I found
that experience is not always enough to convince.

No, it often is not. Often it's a case of not only citing
what you have done, but convincing them of what you *can and will*
do. You need to make them believe that it's in their best interest
to hire you (and of course if they do, deliver on that promise).

Still humble and weak (and ignorant), I know I will get smart and powerful (and the first to know) through a certification process (in C language, of course)

Um, I disagree. Certification does not bestow knowledge and skill.
Studying and practice does that. Knowledge and skill are usually
a prerequisite for 'certification.' Also note that the idea of
'certification' is not standardized, there's no consensus on its
meaning. IOW, certified by whom? Certified to be what?

Would the skilled and brilliant C community have an idea where to go and

who

to ask?

I'd start by investigating local community colleges and/or
vocational/technical institutions. Personally, I prefer
the private ones over government funded and run ones, but
that will have to be your decision.

Is there any center well-recognized by the professional market, in
US or elsewhere?

Investigate the reputations of various learning institutions.

Inquire of local employers which 'certifications' or 'degrees'
are meaningful to them. Arrange and go to 'informational interviews'
(i.e. not applying for work, but finding out what they do, and what
they need).

I will be very grateful for any answer,

I hope you found mine of some use.

and deeply unhappy for any insult.

You stink!! (Just kidding) :-)

-Mike

[Kevin D. Quitt]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 00:36:31 +0100, "patrick courant"
<pa*************@club-internet.fr> wrote:

Well, thank you very much for such a quick and relevant answer.

To speak in earnest (is this still good english?),
"Speaking earnestly" is idiomatic, but yours is correct.

I was wondering whether
there was something for the C language that could be compared to the Oracle
or Cisco or MicroSoft Certification. (May be not to the same extent, but
still comparable).

There is not. The problem isn't knowing C, per se, as it is knowing how
to solve the kind of problem your prospective employer has (and to do so
using C). I will grab someone who is a beginner in C but an expert in
high-reliability hard real-time; I will probably not hire a C expert who
has only been doing business programming.

So, for you:

Step -1: (Optional but recommended.) Get Knuth's books on the Art of
Programming; read and understand them.

Step 0: Memorize and *understand* the CLC FAQ.

Step 0.1: Get a C compiler and write a bunch of programs doing various
things so you know how to do (formatted) file and stream I/O, basic logic,
and some numerical work (http://tinyurl.com/48xb3). You should be able to
show that you can create simple but meaningful programs from scratch;
compile and execute them.
Step 1: Be able to demonstrate that you have expertise that is directly
applicable to the employer's problems and goals. (YOYO)

Step 2: Be able to demonstrate that you are a good programmer and have a
working knowledge of C (hence steps 0.*).

--
#include <standard.disclaimer>
_
Kevin D Quitt USA 91387-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
Per the FCA, this address may not be added to any commercial mail list

[Mike Wahler]

"patrick courant" <pa*************@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.club-internet.fr...

Well, thank you very much for such a quick and relevant answer.

To speak in earnest (is this still good english?), I was wondering whether
there was something for the C language that could be compared to the Oracle or Cisco or MicroSoft Certification. (May be not to the same extent, but
still comparable).
Browsing on the net; googling with the word "certification", I found several sites, generally called "something.org", that proposed certifications on
various subjects, sometimes including "Taking good care of children" as well as "Java" or "C / C++ programming".

So my thoughts were about: is it worth the (rather small, I would say) price that is asked for, and the concern of answering a few dozen of questions.

If you have any opinion ...
Find out how much if any value the employers you're
interested in place upon which, if any, 'certifications'.
But of course if you believe that any offered training for
certification would help you improve your skills (even if
it doesn't result in a certificate), by all means go for it.
Only you can decide how much you're willing to pay for what.
Still, thank you very much for your concern.

You're welcome. I'm glad to see that you're trying to take
a directed course of action, unlike many I see who simply
read a couple books (whose quality and correctness they're
not qualified to assess) and then declare themselves
'professional programmers'.

Also be sure to see Kevin Q's (imo good) advice as well.

Good luck!

-Mike

[patrick courant]

Ok, that's it!

I am very grateful to this group (as I am with the other group
"comp.database.ingres" I follow faithfully, but that's another story) which
is so efficient populated mostly with nice people committed to give you
straight and clear answers.

Ah mais! (French)

So? Thanks again!

Patrick C.
"Mike Wahler" <mk******@mkwahler.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:ix***************@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...

"patrick courant" <pa*************@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:41***********************@news.club-internet.fr...

Well, thank you very much for such a quick and relevant answer.

To speak in earnest (is this still good english?), I was wondering whether there was something for the C language that could be compared to the

Oracle

or Cisco or MicroSoft Certification. (May be not to the same extent, but
still comparable).
Browsing on the net; googling with the word "certification", I found

several

sites, generally called "something.org", that proposed certifications on
various subjects, sometimes including "Taking good care of children" as

well

as "Java" or "C / C++ programming".

So my thoughts were about: is it worth the (rather small, I would say)

price

that is asked for, and the concern of answering a few dozen of questions.
If you have any opinion ...

Find out how much if any value the employers you're
interested in place upon which, if any, 'certifications'.
But of course if you believe that any offered training for
certification would help you improve your skills (even if
it doesn't result in a certificate), by all means go for it.
Only you can decide how much you're willing to pay for what.

Still, thank you very much for your concern.

You're welcome. I'm glad to see that you're trying to take
a directed course of action, unlike many I see who simply
read a couple books (whose quality and correctness they're
not qualified to assess) and then declare themselves
'professional programmers'.

Also be sure to see Kevin Q's (imo good) advice as well.

Good luck!

-Mike

[Ravi Uday]

patrick courant wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am an european freelance engineer, fighting with computer science for too
many years to remember. However, when applying for new missions, I found
that experience is not always enough to convince.

Still humble and weak (and ignorant), I know I will get smart and powerful
(and the first to know) through a certification process (in C language, of
course)

Would the skilled and brilliant C community have an idea where to go and who
to ask? Is there any center well-recognized by the professional market, in
US or elsewhere?

Have you tried www.brainbench.com ?? I liked it, its ok on C test.
- Ravi
I will be very grateful for any answer, and deeply unhappy for any insult.

PC.

[patrick courant]

Hello ravi,

I went to the site following your advice, and I found it's (on the face of
it) the one that offers the most interesting commitment to good testing. (as
compared to other places I browse, like Expertrating, and, which is less
relevant, Learning Tree, ICCQ, ....).
Well, you have to search deep to find sites offering certification in C
langage (as compared to Oracle: there are so many I am sure my grocery round
the corner offers one ...)

My question is : can you be a little more precise about the reason why you
found the site appaling, and did you try anything else? Your Cisco belonging
impresses me, so I care for your opinion.

If you can spare a minute to tell me, I will be grateful.

Thanks again.

Patrick C.
"Ravi Uday" <ra******@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:1104893952.697302@sj-nntpcache-5...

patrick courant wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am an european freelance engineer, fighting with computer science for too many years to remember. However, when applying for new missions, I found
that experience is not always enough to convince.

Still humble and weak (and ignorant), I know I will get smart and powerful (and the first to know) through a certification process (in C language, of course)

Would the skilled and brilliant C community have an idea where to go and who to ask? Is there any center well-recognized by the professional market, in US or elsewhere?

Have you tried www.brainbench.com ?? I liked it, its ok on C test.
- Ravi

I will be very grateful for any answer, and deeply unhappy for any insult.
PC.

[CBFalconer]

patrick courant wrote:

.... snip ...
My question is : can you be a little more precise about the reason
why you found the site appaling, and did you try anything else?
Your Cisco belonging impresses me, so I care for your opinion.

Please do not toppost. Your answer belongs after, or intermixed
with, quoted material after snipping out anything not germane to
your reply.

I don't believe he found the site appalling, which is one possible
spelling correction. Appalling means abysmally foul, horrible,
vile. However, I have been wrong before.

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!

[patrick courant]

"CBFalconer" <cb********@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:41***************@yahoo.com...

patrick courant wrote:

... snip ...

My question is : can you be a little more precise about the reason
why you found the site appaling, and did you try anything else?
Your Cisco belonging impresses me, so I care for your opinion.

Please do not toppost. Your answer belongs after, or intermixed
with, quoted material after snipping out anything not germane to
your reply.

I don't believe he found the site appalling, which is one possible
spelling correction. Appalling means abysmally foul, horrible,
vile. However, I have been wrong before.

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!

Sorry, I meant "appealing" not "appaling".
In due respect of the group rules, my mistake.

Patrick C.

[Ravi Uday]

patrick courant wrote:

Hello ravi,

I went to the site following your advice, and I found it's (on the face of
it) the one that offers the most interesting commitment to good testing. (as
compared to other places I browse, like Expertrating, and, which is less
relevant, Learning Tree, ICCQ, ....).
Well, you have to search deep to find sites offering certification in C
langage (as compared to Oracle: there are so many I am sure my grocery round
the corner offers one ...)

My question is : can you be a little more precise about the reason why you
found the site appaling, and did you try anything else? Your Cisco belonging
impresses me, so I care for your opinion.

If you can spare a minute to tell me, I will be grateful.
Hi patrick, well this site was one referred to me by my friend, so i
just went about and researched a bit on that site and took a test on C.

The C-test there tests the applicant on some of the basics/advanced of
C-programming (as below) which i found it interesting.

Arrays
Concepts
Indexing Pointers
Multidimensional
Passing Arrays to Functions
Pointers to Arrays
Single-Dimension

Basics
Basic Program
Data Types
Language
Literals
Other Statements
Preprocessor
Statements
Structures

C Expressions
Conditionals
Constants
Data Types
Definitions and Declarators
Operator Precedence
Operators
Scoping
Storage Class Specifiers
Variables

Functions
Character Functions
Concepts
Dynamic Memory Allocation
Error Handling
Mathematical Functions
Memory Functions
Storage Functions
String Functions
Time and Date Functions

Input/Output
Concepts
Console I/O
File I/O
Formatted Output
I/O Functions
Special Characters

Pointers
Arrays of Pointers
Concepts
Indirection
Initializing
Passing Arguments
Pointers to Various Objects

Program Statements
Branch
Casting
Conditionals
Implicit Casting
Looping
Other Statements

Strings
Basics
Literals
String Manipulation

also i believe some companies ask for brain bench certifications as a
requirement to their job openings !

There is not much to loose, try your hand there too !

Good luck and hope that helps !

- Ravi


Thanks again.

Patrick C.

<snip>

[infobahn]

Ravi Uday wrote:

<snip>

also i believe some companies ask for brain bench certifications as a
requirement to their job openings !

That's a shame. Last time I did a BrainBench test, the tester knew a
lot less about C than I did. This affected my score adversely.

I half-recall that an expert from comp.lang.c may have been hired to
fix this, but who is to say that BrainBench has bothered to hire
real experts to vet their tests in /other/ disciplines?

Any company stupid enough to trust to such tests will get the
employees it deserves.

[Micah Cowan]

infobahn wrote:

Ravi Uday wrote:

That's a shame. Last time I did a BrainBench test, the tester knew a
lot less about C than I did. This affected my score adversely.

I half-recall that an expert from comp.lang.c may have been hired to
fix this, but who is to say that BrainBench has bothered to hire
real experts to vet their tests in /other/ disciplines?

Any company stupid enough to trust to such tests will get the
employees it deserves.

I seem to recall taking the C test in the past year. I know I
took the C++ test. I was extremely impressed. I also seem to
recall having taken it before, and being much less than
impressed. So it stands to reason that they've fixed the former
problems with the tests.

[Martin Ambuhl]

infobahn wrote:

Ravi Uday wrote:
<snip>

also i believe some companies ask for brain bench certifications as a
requirement to their job openings !

That's a shame. Last time I did a BrainBench test, the tester knew a
lot less about C than I did. This affected my score adversely.

Damn. I hope it wasn't my questions or answers that you objected to.
I half-recall that an expert from comp.lang.c may have been hired to
fix this,

At least one of us, but it was not called "BrainBench" then. What were
your specific objections.

[infobahn]

Martin Ambuhl wrote:

infobahn wrote:

Ravi Uday wrote:
<snip>

also i believe some companies ask for brain bench certifications as a
requirement to their job openings !

That's a shame. Last time I did a BrainBench test, the tester knew a
lot less about C than I did. This affected my score adversely.

Damn. I hope it wasn't my questions or answers that you objected to.

So do I. In fact, you may have been the expert I mention below.

I half-recall that an expert from comp.lang.c may have been hired to
fix this,
At least one of us, but it was not called "BrainBench" then.

tekmetrix or something along those lines, wasn't it? I still have
my certificate somewhere. "Master C Programmer" or some such nonsense.
What were your specific objections.

I don't recall, since it was at least 5 years ago. I do recall,
however, that I was by no means the only one to harbour concerns
about their C test. This newsgroup certainly discussed the
test's flaws at some length.

[patrick courant]

"infobahn" <in******@btinternet.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:41***************@btinternet.com...

Martin Ambuhl wrote:

infobahn wrote:

Ravi Uday wrote:
<snip>

>also i believe some companies ask for brain bench certifications as a
>requirement to their job openings !
That's a shame. Last time I did a BrainBench test, the tester knew a
lot less about C than I did. This affected my score adversely.

Damn. I hope it wasn't my questions or answers that you objected to.

So do I. In fact, you may have been the expert I mention below.

I half-recall that an expert from comp.lang.c may have been hired to
fix this,

At least one of us, but it was not called "BrainBench" then.

tekmetrix or something along those lines, wasn't it? I still have
my certificate somewhere. "Master C Programmer" or some such nonsense.

What were your specific objections.

I don't recall, since it was at least 5 years ago. I do recall,
however, that I was by no means the only one to harbour concerns
about their C test. This newsgroup certainly discussed the
test's flaws at some length.

Well, to infobahn I will ask: To make a long story short, what is your
definitive opinion today? Would you think problems with BrainBench have been
fixed, as you don't give any other advice...? With all due respect, still,
and my thanks for your concern.

Patrick C.

[infobahn]

patrick courant wrote:

"infobahn" <in******@btinternet.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:41***************@btinternet.com...

I do recall,
however, that I was by no means the only one to harbour concerns
about their C test. This newsgroup certainly discussed the
test's flaws at some length.
Well, to infobahn I will ask: To make a long story short, what is your
definitive opinion today?

I don't have one. If BrainBench were to invite comp.lang.c to inspect
their test, that would be a useful exercise. Somehow I don't think
that's going to happen.
Would you think problems with BrainBench have been
fixed,
I have no idea. It appears they did take some steps to hire expertise
from this newsgroup, which is a Good Thing but doesn't necessarily
mean that all or even most problems have been fixed. Nor does it mean
that those problems have /not/ been fixed.
as you don't give any other advice...?

I don't? So what have I been doing for the la... oh, skip it.

My advice in this case is simple. Take as many tests as you like,
but remember that there is no substitute for knowledge. If you
know what you're talking about, the chances are very high that you
will spot problems in any test you do, because these tests are set
by people who, on the whole, only /think/ they know what they're
doing. (Martin Ambuhl excepted, of course. If he has redeveloped the
whole of BrainBench's C test, I don't suppose any problems remain.)

[Chris Croughton]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:15:34 +0000 (UTC), infobahn
<in******@btinternet.com> wrote:

My advice in this case is simple. Take as many tests as you like,
but remember that there is no substitute for knowledge. If you
know what you're talking about, the chances are very high that you
will spot problems in any test you do, because these tests are set
by people who, on the whole, only /think/ they know what they're
doing. (Martin Ambuhl excepted, of course. If he has redeveloped the
whole of BrainBench's C test, I don't suppose any problems remain.)

Three companies for which I have worked had their own C tests during the
interview process. They had te policy that if a new employee aced the
test, one of their first jobs was rewriting or modifying the tests to
make them harder (by the time I took them, they didn't expect candidates
to get 100% right; if someone got under 20%, though, their application was
roundfiled). The tests were able to be more specific to the company
than a general 'certification' (for instance one at system level gave
some assembler compiled from a system function and ask the candidate to
explain what it wa doing -- I was apparently the first candidate they'd
seem who said after a minute or so "setjmp() and longjmp()").

Chris C

[infobahn]

Chris Croughton wrote:

Three companies for which I have worked had their own C tests during the
interview process. They had te policy that if a new employee aced the
test, one of their first jobs was rewriting or modifying the tests to
make them harder (by the time I took them, they didn't expect candidates
to get 100% right; if someone got under 20%, though, their application was
roundfiled).

That's a neat idea, but I hope they also were open to the very real
possibility that test questions can be wrong, or that the answers
expected by the testers can be the wrong ones.

On several occasions I've had cause to - um - "discuss" a test
question in, shall we say, delicate circumstances. Raising the
matter diplomatically can take a certain amount of finesse.

[Chris Croughton]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:10:29 +0000 (UTC), infobahn
<in******@btinternet.com> wrote:

Chris Croughton wrote:

Three companies for which I have worked had their own C tests during the
interview process. They had te policy that if a new employee aced the
test, one of their first jobs was rewriting or modifying the tests to
make them harder (by the time I took them, they didn't expect candidates
to get 100% right; if someone got under 20%, though, their application was
roundfiled).
That's a neat idea, but I hope they also were open to the very real
possibility that test questions can be wrong, or that the answers
expected by the testers can be the wrong ones.

Well, yes, they didn't just have a free hand (all of the tests were
reviewed by many other programmers).
On several occasions I've had cause to - um - "discuss" a test
question in, shall we say, delicate circumstances. Raising the
matter diplomatically can take a certain amount of finesse.

Hmm, I'm not very tactful, I'll say thing like "this doesn't seem to
make sense". Or on one occasion "I answered what the question said, but
I'm not sure that it said what you meant". In my experience, they
aren't so much bothered about the "right answer" (unless it's obvious
that the person doesn't know the first thing about it) as why they
answered a particular way (one C++ test I got into a discussion about
the actual meaning of 'virtual' functions and abstract classes).

These are generally administered by tech types rather than managers, so
they aren't so hung up on exact answers...

(One interview we spent mostly reminiscing about old hardware (what they
call "retrocomputing") and the good old days when 32Kb of core store was
a lot. I got the job...)

Chris C

[Thomas Matthews]

infobahn wrote:
[snip]

I have no idea. It appears they did take some steps to hire expertise
from this newsgroup, which is a Good Thing but doesn't necessarily
mean that all or even most problems have been fixed. Nor does it mean
that those problems have /not/ been fixed.

as you don't give any other advice...?

I don't? So what have I been doing for the la... oh, skip it.

My advice in this case is simple. Take as many tests as you like,
but remember that there is no substitute for knowledge. If you
know what you're talking about, the chances are very high that you
will spot problems in any test you do, because these tests are set
by people who, on the whole, only /think/ they know what they're
doing. (Martin Ambuhl excepted, of course. If he has redeveloped the
whole of BrainBench's C test, I don't suppose any problems remain.)

Some year(s) ago, BrainBench offered free testing for 90 days.
They posted this in this newsgroup. Many of the experts from
this group took the test and posted the problems with the test.

I haven't taken the BrainBench test since then. I scored something
like 3.5 on it.

--
Thomas Matthews

C++ newsgroup welcome message:
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt
C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ faq:
http://www.comeaucomputing.com/learn/faq/
Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book
http://www.sgi.com/tech/stl -- Standard Template Library