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English language question

The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?

Thanks in advance

jacob
Nov 14 '05 #1
66 2889

"jacob navia" <ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote in message

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct
english?

"s" is the English spelling, and therefore correct, whilst "z" is American
and just plain wrong.

Seriously, the "z" "s" distinction is breaking down because of the volume of
transatlantic communication, but "s" seems to be slowly winning. Your
spell-checker is too strict.
Nov 14 '05 #2

"Malcolm" <ma*****@55bank.freeserve.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news:cb**********@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...


Seriously, the "z" "s" distinction is breaking down because of the volume of transatlantic communication, but "s" seems to be slowly winning. Your
spell-checker is too strict.


Ahhh again this english/american differences.

OK. Thanks

Nov 14 '05 #3
# Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling

Spell checkers don't decide what is english; english speaking people
do. I can't imagine an native speakers who can't correctly understand
either spelling.

Unless you're sitting in a wagon by the curb outside the gaol after
your cheque bounced, I wouldn't worry about too much.

--
SM Ryan http://www.rawbw.com/~wyrmwif/
Wow. A sailboat.
Nov 14 '05 #4
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

SM Ryan wrote:
[snip]
| Unless you're sitting in a wagon by the curb outside the gaol after
| your cheque bounced, I wouldn't worry about too much.

I've never sat outside a gaol, but I have driven past a jail.

OTOH, I sometimes sit in a wagon by the curb, contemplating the colour of my
cheque book.

"I am Canadian" [1]
[1] The slogan for a Canadian beer, named "Canadian", and the end tag of a
well-known 'rant' distinguishing Canadians from Americans.

- --
Lew Pitcher

Master Codewright & JOAT-in-training | GPG public key available on request
Registered Linux User #112576 (http://counter.li.org/)
Slackware - Because I know what I'm doing.
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFA1ZgtagVFX4UWr64RAq/nAKC6xUNEoHQ/qPJfdtOOOWK4Nl7dVACgog8K
ds6+5NCxf4j4G2+pmoTiyZ4=
=bW99
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Nov 14 '05 #5
jacob navia wrote:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.


Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.

--
Allin Cottrell
Department of Economics
Wake Forest University, NC
Nov 14 '05 #6
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:53:12 +0200, "jacob navia"
<ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote in comp.lang.c:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?

Thanks in advance


Jacob,

Is it true that the word "uninitialized" does not appear in the C
language standard.

But the words "initialize", "initialized", and "initializer" all do,
and are all spelled with the 'z' (that is, American style) and not
with the 's' (UK style). This is true of both the PDF versions from
ANSI/NCITS, and the hard copy printed version from the British
Standards Institution that has been in print for a year or so.

I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.

Of course that is why Word has the "add" option in the spell checker.
Amazingly enough, as it comes new from Microsoft, it does not think
that "printf", "strlen", or "memcpy" are words, until I add them!

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~a...FAQ-acllc.html
Nov 14 '05 #7
jacob navia wrote:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist,
and no dictionary has it.
It's standard jargon.
I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error
and tells me that the correct spelling is

"uninitialised" with s
This spelling is correct in the United Kingdom.
and NOT "uninitialized" with z.
This spelling is correct in the United States.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct English?


Both are correct. You can use either one.
Please, just try to be consistent.
Nov 14 '05 #8
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:
Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.


Erm, it is a typical USAnian misapprehension that theirs is the
"international" version of the language. It isn't. I learned proper
English at school - the original, international kind.

Richard
Nov 14 '05 #9
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:11:42 -0000, SM Ryan
<wy*****@tango-sierra-oscar-foxtrot-tango-dot-charlie-oscar-mike.fake.org>
wrote:
# Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling

Spell checkers don't decide what is english; english speaking people
do. I can't imagine an native speakers who can't correctly understand
either spelling.

Unless you're sitting in a wagon by the curb outside the gaol after
your cheque bounced, I wouldn't worry about too much.


By the kerb, damn yank.

--
Sev
Nov 14 '05 #10
In <cb***********@f1n1.spenet.wfu.edu> Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> writes:
jacob navia wrote:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.


Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.


Agreed for American, but I have yet to see a proper definition of
"International English".

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Nov 14 '05 #11
In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Nov 14 '05 #12
In <cb**********@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr> "jacob navia" <ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it.
Think what happened if dictionaries attempted to handle all the possible
prefixes for all the words accepting them. Many obvious cases are
deliberately omitted.
I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".
When in doubt, try a Google search for the whole expression and see how
many "reliable" hits you get.
Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?


I can't believe that it took you so long to discover the s/z issue.
Ten years from now, you may also fall upon the ou/o issue (as in
"colour" vs "color").

Your Word was configured for UK English. Configure it for US English and
it should happily accept "uninitialized" and flag "uninitialised" as an
error.

Neither is more/less correct than the other, in an international context.
Choose whatever English flavour you prefer and use it consistently.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Nov 14 '05 #13
Severian wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:11:42 -0000, SM Ryan
<wy*****@tango-sierra-oscar-foxtrot-tango-dot-charlie-oscar-mike.fake.org>
wrote:

# Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling

Spell checkers don't decide what is english; english speaking people
do. I can't imagine an native speakers who can't correctly understand
either spelling.

Unless you're sitting in a wagon by the curb outside the gaol after
your cheque bounced, I wouldn't worry about too much.

By the kerb, damn yank.

That's "curb", damy brit.
--
Thomas Matthews

C++ newsgroup welcome message:
http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt
C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ faq:
http://www.raos.demon.uk/acllc-c++/faq.html
Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book

Nov 14 '05 #14
I am interested in why there has not been a 'this is off topic for c.l.c'
post.

Walter L. Preuninger II

"Dan Pop" <Da*****@cern.ch> wrote in message
news:cb**********@sunnews.cern.ch...
In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de

Nov 14 '05 #15
Walter L. Preuninger II wrote:
I am interested in why there has not been a 'this is off topic for c.l.c'
post.

Walter L. Preuninger II

"Dan Pop" <Da*****@cern.ch> wrote in message
news:cb**********@sunnews.cern.ch...
In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein


<ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de



I was wondering the same thing, considering the hammers that people
usually let loose when an off-topic post is posted :)

David Logan
Nov 14 '05 #16
Dan Pop wrote:
Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling
of the related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language.
Use whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent,
i.e. you don't spell "initialization" and "organisation".


However Canadians are naturally confused, being simultaneously
attacked from childhood on all spelling fronts by intolerant
adjacent spellmeisters. This will not be resolved until we
acheive Canadian hegemony. :-) (and then we have to worry about
Quebec).

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Nov 14 '05 #17
On 21 Jun 2004 12:16:43 GMT, Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote in
comp.lang.c:
In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan


You are absolutely correct. If Jacob does not mind being
inconsistent, he can use "uninitialised". But if he uses
"initialisation" or "initialised" he is using terms not defined in the
standard, not by BSI, ANSI, or ISO.

6.7.8 of the current standard defines "initialization". It does not
define "initialisation", even if, according to you, they mean the same
thing in English.

You of all people should know that the standard says exactly what it
literally says, no more and no less.

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~a...FAQ-acllc.html
Nov 14 '05 #18
Richard Bos wrote:
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:

Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.

Erm, it is a typical USAnian misapprehension that theirs is the
"international" version of the language. It isn't. I learned proper
English at school - the original, international kind.


I'm a Brit moi-meme, but it's only realism to recognize that the
"English" that constitutes an international language in the
21st century is primarily American English. (In the days of the
British Empire, things were different).

As a footnote, I'd suggest that in most contexts the -ize
suffix is in fact perfectly good UK English (as measured by
reputable English dictionaries, not MS Word). Insistence
upon the -ise form as uniquely "correct" is false pedantry.

Allin Cottrell
Nov 14 '05 #19
"jacob navia" <ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote in message news:<cb**********@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr>...

The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?


Uninitialized is a new word, primarily used in computer jargon
still. I expect it will appear in the dictionaries sooner or
later, but it is unquestionably the word to use in this context.

As for spelling it ... in the USA you will mostly come across
'initialize'. In Britain you will come across both 'initialize'
and 'initialise'. The great H. W. Fowler, a 20th century English
scholar often regarded as The Authority on British English,
recommended 'initialize' as the correct form. He regarded
'initialise' as a French-influenced corruption.

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French - can't help thinking of Miss Piggy's
"Pretentious??? Moi???"]
Nov 14 '05 #20
In <35********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
On 21 Jun 2004 12:16:43 GMT, Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote in
comp.lang.c:
In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
>I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
>related words that are in the standard.
Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan


You are absolutely correct. If Jacob does not mind being
inconsistent, he can use "uninitialised". But if he uses
"initialisation" or "initialised" he is using terms not defined in the
standard, not by BSI, ANSI, or ISO.

6.7.8 of the current standard defines "initialization". It does not
define "initialisation", even if, according to you, they mean the same
thing in English.


If they mean the same thing, then the definition of one word applies to
the other.
You of all people should know that the standard says exactly what it
literally says, no more and no less.


Indeed. However, I have enough brain cells to be able to tell the
difference between semantic issues and spelling issues. It is sheer
stupidity to insist that the *only* spelling that should be used in a C
language context is the one used by the C standard.

I don't use the American spelling (I've learned English in Europe), yet
no one complained (until now ;-) about not being able to understand my
posts because my spelling doesn't match the one used by the C standard.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Nov 14 '05 #21
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:
Richard Bos wrote:
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:
Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.


Erm, it is a typical USAnian misapprehension that theirs is the
"international" version of the language. It isn't. I learned proper
English at school - the original, international kind.


I'm a Brit moi-meme, but it's only realism to recognize that the
"English" that constitutes an international language in the
21st century is primarily American English.


How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?

Richard
Nov 14 '05 #22
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:48:06 GMT, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Dan Pop wrote:
Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling
of the related words that are in the standard.


Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language.
Use whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent,
i.e. you don't spell "initialization" and "organisation".


However Canadians are naturally confused, being simultaneously
attacked from childhood on all spelling fronts by intolerant
adjacent spellmeisters. This will not be resolved until we
acheive Canadian hegemony. :-) (and then we have to worry about
Quebec).


Personally, I keep hope that they'll finally separate and we'll be rid
of them. So long as they take their politicians with them. :)

Unfortunately, if they separate, Quebec still wants the rest of Canada
to foot their bills.

Even more unfortunately, this is entirely off-topic, so I'll stop now.
;)

--
Andrew
Nov 14 '05 #23
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:53:12 +0200, "jacob navia"
<ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> wrote:
The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?

Whichever way you like - it's a British/USA difference which most
people won't worry about. Personally, I spell it both ways, though
usually not in the same document ;-)

If you look under the tools->language menu in Word, you'll find at
least a dozen varieties of "English" to choose from.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #24
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -


I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #25
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -
I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin. Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.


I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it. I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"Ice cream sales somehow cause drownings: both happen in summer."
- Antti Voipio & Arto Wikla
Nov 14 '05 #26
In article <js********************************@4ax.com>,
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -


I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.

Hamish
Nov 14 '05 #27
"Joona I Palaste" <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:cb**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it. I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.


English-only speakers should not be expected to know the German rules for
pronouncing ei vs. ie. In various English words both combinations can be
pronounced both ways, and the origin of words is so muddied that most
English speakers just memorize the pronunciation for each word instead of
determining its origin and trying to apply the rules for that language (as
if we can keep track of the rules of dozens of languages we borrow words
from).

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov

Nov 14 '05 #28
On 22 Jun 2004 17:25:19 GMT, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -
I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.


I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it.


Actually, I've never heard the "spleen" pronunciation, but you've
missed the point. When an English-speaker says "Give me a stein of
beer", he's not speaking German, he's speaking English, and German
rules of pronunciation have no bearing on the matter.
I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.


Tell us the joke?

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #29
"Hamish Reid" <ha*******@panxyzdemoniazyx.invalid> wrote in message
news:ha*****************************@news.supernew s.com...
In article <js********************************@4ax.com>,
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -


I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.


Similarly, here in Texas most people will properly pronounce bois d'arc as
"bwah-dark" and know that's because the name is French, but that's just one
of thousands of words that we just memorize and move on without learning
_why_ the French pronounce things strangely, and we still consider the term
(not the individual parts) to be an English word of French origin. Ditto
with Spanish, German, and other words.

There's lots of roads and towns here that have pronunciations which are
neither English nor Spanish, but settled somewhere in between as the
population changed over time. We English speakers are pretty sloppy when we
import words; the more a foreign word is used, the more its pronunciation
alters from the original, until one day it's barely recognizable as a
cognate.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov

Nov 14 '05 #30
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
On 22 Jun 2004 17:25:19 GMT, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.
Tell us the joke?


"Heinz meanz beanz".

--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"C++ looks like line noise."
- Fred L. Baube III
Nov 14 '05 #31
Hamish Reid said the following, on 06/22/04 13:52:
In article <js********************************@4ax.com>,
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
On 21 Jun 2004 20:58:39 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -
I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

[snip]
*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.


In the case of 'fillet', I suspect it results because most Americans
born before about 1960 or so probably heard the word first only as part
of 'filet mignon' (which of course is French), and have just carried
over the pronunciation. (Actually, you will probably notice that many
menus spell the word with one 'l', though 'fillet' is a perfectly proper
American English word.)

The pronunciation of 'herb' without the 'h' is not so common in most of
the US (the part not on either the East or West Coast).

Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have to say
that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even the BBC
presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing the name of the
large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi River, as "St.
Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the name of the place is
pronounced "Saint Lewis". :-) I will not describe how the natives of
Havre de Grace, Maryland, pronounce the name of their town, to spare the
sensibilities of French readers.

Was it Shaw or Wilde that used the line, "two countries divided by a
common language" ? ;-)

--
Rich Gibbs
rg****@alumni.princeton.edu

Nov 14 '05 #32
Dan Pop said the following, on 06/21/04 08:29:
In <cb**********@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr> "jacob navia" <ja***@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:

The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it.

Think what happened if dictionaries attempted to handle all the possible
prefixes for all the words accepting them. Many obvious cases are
deliberately omitted.


My (printed) _American Heritage Dictionary_ just lists the most common
words formed with the 'un' prefix, in small type in the page footers.
As Dan suggests, including full entries for all of them would consume an
enormous amount of space to no real purpose, since the meanings are obvious.
--
Rich Gibbs
rg****@alumni.princeton.edu
Nov 14 '05 #33
Richard Bos wrote:
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:

Richard Bos wrote:
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:
Word is apparently set to approve only British English.

"Uninitialized" is perfectly OK American/international English.

Erm, it is a typical USAnian misapprehension that theirs is the
"international" version of the language. It isn't. I learned proper
English at school - the original, international kind.


I'm a Brit moi-meme, but it's only realism to recognize that the
"English" that constitutes an international language in the
21st century is primarily American English.

How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?


Your teacher didn't like Americans? Couldn't find a book on USAnian?
Didn't appreciate a great difference (Is there a great difference)?
Perhaps the sound of it. People from Oxford sound more delightful to
the refined Dutch ear than people from New York (I agree actually)?

I am curious why you, Richard Bos of Holland, choose to deprecate
nearly all things American in favour of things English. It's not
important to me at all. I'm just curious.

Annecdotally, some of the worst English I've ever heard was in
England and some of the best in Holland.

--
Joe Wright mailto:jo********@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
Nov 14 '05 #34
Dan Pop wrote:
In <35********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:

On 21 Jun 2004 12:16:43 GMT, Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote in
comp.lang.c:

In <0g********************************@4ax.com> Jack Klein <ja*******@spamcop.net> writes:
I would suggest using the 'z' for consistency with the spelling of the
related words that are in the standard.

Nonsense! The C standard doesn't define the English language. Use
whatever version you prefer, as long as you're consistent, i.e. you don't
spell "initialization" and "organisation".

Dan


You are absolutely correct. If Jacob does not mind being
inconsistent, he can use "uninitialised". But if he uses
"initialisation" or "initialised" he is using terms not defined in the
standard, not by BSI, ANSI, or ISO.

6.7.8 of the current standard defines "initialization". It does not
define "initialisation", even if, according to you, they mean the same
thing in English.

If they mean the same thing, then the definition of one word applies to
the other.

You of all people should know that the standard says exactly what it
literally says, no more and no less.

Indeed. However, I have enough brain cells to be able to tell the
difference between semantic issues and spelling issues. It is sheer
stupidity to insist that the *only* spelling that should be used in a C
language context is the one used by the C standard.

I don't use the American spelling (I've learned English in Europe), yet
no one complained (until now ;-) about not being able to understand my
posts because my spelling doesn't match the one used by the C standard.


Your command of English is superb, no matter where you learned it.
You beat most of us at it, hands down. Now, about Romanian? :-)

--
Joe Wright mailto:jo********@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
Nov 14 '05 #35
Hamish Reid wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:

.... snip ...

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is
under the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd
probably find few US citizens who could tell you anything about
"modern French" pronunciation, and even fewer who could
distinguish it from "ancient French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why
herb is pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here
(California), I've been told by native Californian-English
speakers it's because they're French words and should be
pronounced as such.


Nah, it's because 'erbert was a Cockney. Calais, Maine, is
pronounced to rhyme with Dallas (or Maria Callas). Note the
prevalence of C in these facts. :-)

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Nov 14 '05 #36
Joona I Palaste wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
On 22 Jun 2004 17:25:19 GMT, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.


Tell us the joke?

"Heinz meanz beanz".


That's a stretch. Nobody says "Heenz". Do remember that the rule in
English is usage. The famous American composer and conducter Leonard
Bernstein pronounced his own name "Bernsteen". Go figure.

--
Joe Wright mailto:jo********@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
Nov 14 '05 #37
Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<cb**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
On 22 Jun 2004 17:25:19 GMT, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

Tell us the joke?


"Heinz meanz beanz".


Now I'm totally confused. In Britain, that would be said as "Hines
means beans" - and was sung that way as an advertising jingle. Isn't
that more or less the correct pronunciation of the vowels if we treat
"Heinz" as a German word? I think Heinz is an American company - are
you saying that the correct American pronunciation is "Heans"?
Nov 14 '05 #38
Rich Gibbs wrote:
.... snip ...
Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have
to say that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even
the BBC presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing
the name of the large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi
River, as "St. Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the
name of the place is pronounced "Saint Lewis". :-) I will not

.... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.

--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Nov 14 '05 #39
CBFalconer said the following, on 06/22/04 23:21:
Rich Gibbs wrote:

.... snip ...
Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have
to say that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even
the BBC presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing
the name of the large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi
River, as "St. Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the
name of the place is pronounced "Saint Lewis". :-) I will not


.... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.


I do remember "State Fair", too -- but the pronunciation in the songs
was made, I think, for humorous effect. I was actually born in
Missouri, and one side of the family has lived in the St. Louis area for
~150 years, so I feel reasonably confident that the Saint Lewis
pronunciation goes back for a fair while, at least as these things are
reckoned in the US. ;-)

--
Rich Gibbs
rg****@alumni.princeton.edu
Nov 14 '05 #40
Hamish Reid <ha*******@panxyzdemoniazyx.invalid> wrote:
*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb",
*ouch*
or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.


Cue joke about Loose Angie Lees.

Richard
Nov 14 '05 #41
Joe Wright <jo********@comcast.net> wrote:
Richard Bos wrote:
Allin Cottrell <co******@wfu.edu> wrote:
I'm a Brit moi-meme, but it's only realism to recognize that the
"English" that constitutes an international language in the
21st century is primarily American English.
How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?


Your teacher didn't like Americans? Couldn't find a book on USAnian?
Didn't appreciate a great difference (Is there a great difference)?
Perhaps the sound of it. People from Oxford sound more delightful to
the refined Dutch ear than people from New York (I agree actually)?


No, don't be daft, no, and possibly. Though, mind you, an Irish accent
can be delightful as well - and one of the few accents from the USA that
don't rile me is Simon and Garfunkel's, which is from New York - one of
the many accents from that rather large and diverse city, I gather.
I am curious why you, Richard Bos of Holland,
Oi! From the Netherlands, if you please! Or should I ask my friends in
the Taffia to come 'round to your place and explain, with the aid of a
couple of large leeks, the difference between a country and the most
loud-mouthed part of it?
choose to deprecate nearly all things American in favour of things English.


I don't necessarily deprecate all things USAnian, but I do read the
newspapers, _and_ I know my history. Brittannia was discovered before
Vinland, and it's there that the language evolved. They've got first
dibs.

Richard
Nov 14 '05 #42
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:26:34 GMT, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Hamish Reid wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:
... snip ...

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is
under the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd
probably find few US citizens who could tell you anything about
"modern French" pronunciation, and even fewer who could
distinguish it from "ancient French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why
herb is pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here
(California), I've been told by native Californian-English
speakers it's because they're French words and should be
pronounced as such.


Nah, it's because 'erbert was a Cockney.


That was always my assumption ;-)
Calais, Maine, is
pronounced to rhyme with Dallas (or Maria Callas). Note the
prevalence of C in these facts. :-)


Another one - there's a town in upstate NY named Chili, pronounced
Chai-lai, as in jai-lai (assuming I don't mispronounce the latter. Any
how, the 'i' is long.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #43
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:21:39 GMT, CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Rich Gibbs wrote:

... snip ...

Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have
to say that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even
the BBC presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing
the name of the large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi
River, as "St. Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the
name of the place is pronounced "Saint Lewis". :-) I will not

... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.


One scene in the musical was when one character corrects another's
pronunciation, but I can't remember which way it was. Online
dictionaries seem to favor the "lewis" variation, but they may be
reflecting current usage.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #44
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:32:30 GMT, rl*@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard
Bos) wrote:
21st century is primarily American English.


How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?


Perhaps you learned it before the 21st century?

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #45
On 22 Jun 2004 19:47:23 -0700, jj*@bcs.org.uk (J. J. Farrell) wrote:
Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:<cb**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> scribbled the following:
> On 22 Jun 2004 17:25:19 GMT, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi>
> wrote:
>>I know it ruins a
>>good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
>>correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

> Tell us the joke?


"Heinz meanz beanz".


Now I'm totally confused. In Britain, that would be said as "Hines
means beans" - and was sung that way as an advertising jingle. Isn't
that more or less the correct pronunciation of the vowels if we treat
"Heinz" as a German word? I think Heinz is an American company - are
you saying that the correct American pronunciation is "Heans"?


Having asked for the joke, I didn't want to complain that it wasn't
funny ;-) But you are of course correct - Heinz is pronounced "hines"
in America, as well.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net
Nov 14 '05 #46
CBFalconer wrote:

Rich Gibbs wrote:

... snip ...

Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have
to say that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even
the BBC presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing
the name of the large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi
River, as "St. Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the
name of the place is pronounced "Saint Lewis". :-) I will not

... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.

The musical was "Meet me in St. Louis."

I'll think you find that those songs were written by people who weren't
native St. Louisans and quite possibly had never been there. They also
had other considerations, like how the song sounded.

The "St. Looey" pronounciation was certainly not prevalent around 1945,
otherwise there'd be a significant number of people still using that. It
is the tendency in St. Louis to completely squash all French
pronounciations. The street name Gravois is not Grav-WAH, it is GRAV-oi
or GRAV-ois. My town of Florissant is FLOOR-uh-sant. Bellefontaine is
BELL-fountain.

The likelyhood of "St. Looie" being prevalent anytime recently is pretty
slim. It's one of those outsider things, like Frisco.

Brian Rodenborn
Nov 14 '05 #47
Op Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:26:34 GMT schreef CBFalconer:
Hamish Reid wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:

... snip ...

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is
under the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd
probably find few US citizens who could tell you anything about
"modern French" pronunciation, and even fewer who could
distinguish it from "ancient French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why
herb is pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here
(California), I've been told by native Californian-English
speakers it's because they're French words and should be
pronounced as such.


Nah, it's because 'erbert was a Cockney. Calais, Maine, is
pronounced to rhyme with Dallas (or Maria Callas). Note the
prevalence of C in these facts. :-)


In Europe the pronouncing of Dallas is significantly different from Callas
;-)
--
Coos
Nov 14 '05 #48
In article <40***************@yahoo.com>,
CBFalconer <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hamish Reid wrote:
Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> wrote:

... snip ...

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is
under the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd
probably find few US citizens who could tell you anything about
"modern French" pronunciation, and even fewer who could
distinguish it from "ancient French" pronunciation.


*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why
herb is pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here
(California), I've been told by native Californian-English
speakers it's because they're French words and should be
pronounced as such.


Nah, it's because 'erbert was a Cockney. Calais, Maine, is
pronounced to rhyme with Dallas (or Maria Callas).


And the town of Verdi, in Califonia, is pronounced "VER-dye". And
Versailles is, well, predictably, "VER-sales". You don't want to know
how the little town of Weimar's name is pronounced.

But then this is a country where "Notre Dame" is pronounced so it rhymes
with "voter maim"...

Hamish
Nov 14 '05 #49
In article <40******@news101.his.com>,
Rich Gibbs <rg****@REMOVEalumni.CAPSprinceton.edu> wrote:
Hamish Reid said the following, on 06/22/04 13:52: [...]
*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.


In the case of 'fillet', I suspect it results because most Americans
born before about 1960 or so probably heard the word first only as part
of 'filet mignon' (which of course is French), and have just carried
over the pronunciation. (Actually, you will probably notice that many
menus spell the word with one 'l', though 'fillet' is a perfectly proper
American English word.)


I spent some time working in Atlanta, every day passing a fast-food
outlet called "Chick-Fill-A". It took me *weeks* to work out that this
didn't mean "Chick. Fill. Eh?" or "Chick-filler". (No, I'm not the
sharpest tool in the toolshed).
The pronunciation of 'herb' without the 'h' is not so common in most of
the US (the part not on either the East or West Coast).


I've been made fun of everywhere in the US for pronouncing "herb" the
way it's written, flyover states included....

Hamish
Nov 14 '05 #50

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