http://www.yep-mm.com/res/soCrypt.c
I have 2 malloc's in my program, and when I write the contents of them to
the screen or to a file, there aren addition 4 characters.
As far as I can tell, both the code to register the malloc and to write
information into the malloc is solid. Why then ismy program returning an
additional 4 characters?
register malloc 1:
line 192
register malloc 2:
line 214
write to malloc 1:
line 200 - 205
write to malloc 2:
line 221 - 225
display malloc 2:
line 157
write malloc 2:
line 251
Here's how you execute the program:
socrypt.exe /e :i input.txt :o output.txt :A keya.txt :B keyb.txt :k
keyout.txt
**note that the input, keya, and keyb files must exist or the program will
return an error code.
If you write a text string into the input.txt file, it will write the same
string into the output.txt file plus an addition 4 characters.
The 1024 char random 'masterkey' is also written out to the keyout.txt file
with an addition 4 characters.
Why is this happening? I'm totally baffled and have spent days trying to
figure this out.
Nov 14 '05
144  5178 
"Alan Balmer" <al******@att.net> wrote in message
news:rv********************************@4ax.com... On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:20:50 +0100, "Peter Pichler" <pi*****@pobox.sk>
wrote:The same can be said about the English. The first time I've read 'their'
instead of 'there' in a paper, it confused me so much that I had to go
to the author to ask him WTF he'd meant.
My current pet peeve is "lose" and "loose".
I've always had a fondness for "read", which can be pronounced like either
"red" or "reed", and may mean a present tense verb, past tense verb, or a
noun. Americans are particularly bad about turning verbs into nouns and
vice versa without changing the spelling, which also confuses a new speaker.
As a native English speaker, I've never had trouble correctly spelling or
pronouncing words I've never seen or heard before, but that's because my
parents used a very different method to teach me than what's used in
schools. Particularly, they taught me words in groups which had similar
behavior instead of groups that had similar meanings; I now know that
behavior follows what language English "borrowed" the word from, and can
apply that to new words without trouble.
Another oddity of English is that while there many synonyms for most common
words, non-native speakers tend to only learn and use one of them, usually
the one that most resembles their own language. This leads to situations
where, for example, a native speaker has to translate between an Asian and a
European both speaking mutually exclusive subsets of English.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart
CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with
K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Aaron Sorkin
"CBFalconer" <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@yahoo.com... Keith Thompson wrote: And similarly, "the" is pronounced with a long 'e' when followed
by a vowel, though the spelling doesn't change.
Oh? I would pronounce "the ant" just the same as "the cat".
"Thee ant" flows more naturally than "thuh ant", whereas "thee cat" is less
natural than "thuh cat". Some people only say "thee" or "thuh" in all
cases, but it seems more common for pronunciation to mutate based on the
following word.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart
CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with
K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Aaron Sorkin
Stephen Sprunk wrote: "Alan Balmer" <al******@att.net> wrote in message "Peter Pichler" <pi*****@pobox.sk> > wrote:
The same can be said about the English. The first time I've
read 'their' instead of 'there' in a paper, it confused me so
much that I had to go to the author to ask him WTF he'd meant.
My current pet peeve is "lose" and "loose".
I've always had a fondness for "read", which can be pronounced
like either "red" or "reed", and may mean a present tense verb,
past tense verb, or a noun. Americans are particularly bad
about turning verbs into nouns and vice versa without changing
the spelling, which also confuses a new speaker.
Every so often I have to look with horror on what came back after
I post something. My minor typos insist on looking like ignorant
spelling foulups. I especially remember a lose/loose foulup a few
days ago. I have even fouled there/their.
--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
"CBFalconer" <cb********@yahoo.com> wrote in message Every so often I have to look with horror on what came back after
I post something. My minor typos insist on looking like ignorant
spelling foulups. I especially remember a lose/loose foulup a few
days ago. I have even fouled there/their.
:-)
Lose/loose can be explained as a simple typo. Bot for us, non-native
speakers, who'd learnt the language mostly by reading, there and
their are *visually* two completely different things. And I usually
don't bother pronouncing it when I'm reading it, that would slow me
down. The visual information is all I need. Thus errors like these
can sometimes confuse me, though not for longer than a second or two
nowadays.
Now, can this explain so many readers confusing C and C++?
Peter
"Stephen Sprunk" <st*****@sprunk.org> writes: I've always had a fondness for "read", which can be pronounced like either
"red" or "reed", and may mean a present tense verb, past tense verb, or a
noun. Americans are particularly bad about turning verbs into nouns and
vice versa without changing the spelling, which also confuses a new speaker.
I'm fond of "resent", which can be interpreted as "feel bitter or
indignant about" or "sent again". The ambiguity between these
two meanings can occasionally be important. As a result I always
hyphenate the latter into "re-sent".
--
"This is a wonderful answer.
It's off-topic, it's incorrect, and it doesn't answer the question."
--Richard Heathfield
In <40*********************@news.club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <ab****@nospam.fr> writes: Dan Pop a écrit : In <ln************@nuthaus.mib.org> Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.org> writes:
it for richness of vocabulary). I've heard that English is the only
language in which spelling bees are held (contests in which the object
is to correctly spell words after hearing them spoken).
There are such contests for French, too. The winners are usually NOT
native French speakers.
That's not true. The most popular contest is "la dictée de Pivot" also
known as "Les Dicos d'or" and the winners are usually French, but there
is a category for non native French speakers.
Obviously, a non-native French speaker cannot win at the category reserved
to native French speakers :-) I was talking about open contests.
BTW, the average native French speaker can speak French grammatically
correct, but cannot write French grammatically correct. For most verbs,
several tenses and forms are pronounced identically, but written
differently. Since they learned speaking instinctively, get it right
when speaking is trivial, while getting it right when writing requires
a solid understanding of the French grammar (otherwise, it's trivially
easy to mix up, e.g. the infinitive and past participle of most regular
verbs).
Although your last example is a common mistake, it's very easy to avoid
it for a native french speaker: just replace the verb by another one
(usually "prendre") and its pronunciation discriminates between the
infinitive and the past participle.
It doesn't matter how easy it is to avoid, what really matters is that it
is a *very* common mistake. If the written form sounds correctly, far too
many people don't bother to make the slightest effort to check that it is
the correct form.
The most difficult part of the
French grammar is the agreement of the adjectives and past participles.
In some cases, it only depends on the order of the words in the sentence.
Besides French grammar, spelling French is difficult because of the many
ways (not as much as English, though) to write the same sound and
because of the presence of mute letters (much more than English), e.g.
"saint", "sain", "sein", "seing", "ceint", "cinq" all share an identical
pronunciation but a different meaning.
It's not that difficult, once you get the hang of it. As a non-native
French speaker I was able to correctly spell words I was hearing for the
first time. And the context helps a lot when disambiguating between
words with identical or near identical pronunciation, just like
in English.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
In <rv********************************@4ax.com> Alan Balmer <al******@att.net> writes: "Dan Pop" <Da*****@cern.ch> wrote in message
news:c5***********@sunnews.cern.ch...
BTW, the average native French speaker can speak French grammatically
correct, but cannot write French grammatically correct.
Shouldn't that be "the average native French speaker can speak
grammatically correct French , but cannot write grammatically correct
French"?
Could be. I'm not a native English speaker and I've never bothered to
study the English grammar.
Dan
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El 8 Apr 2004 08:33:51 GMT, Joona I Palaste escribió: People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
spoken sounds.
I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
- --
Alberto Giménez, SimManiac en el IRC http://www.almorranasozial.es.vg
GNU/Linux Debian Woody 3.0 GnuPG ID: 0x3BAABDE1
Linux registered user #290801
Windows 98 no se cuelg·$%&/# NO CARRIER
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El Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:50:17 -0400 (EDT), Arthur J. O'Dwyer escribió: in Spanish pronunciation are what happens to 'c[aou]' versus 'c[ei]' and
'gu[ao]' versus 'gu[ei]'. But I'm a little out of it, so maybe I missed
yes, i forgot that in my last post :)
hm, i could add "r" versus "rr", but i don't think it is a
pronounciation "peculiarity", and with qu[ei], where u is not pronounced
(in spanish no word is written with "qua" or "quo") :)
- --
Alberto Giménez, SimManiac en el IRC http://www.almorranasozial.es.vg
GNU/Linux Debian Woody 3.0 GnuPG ID: 0x3BAABDE1
Linux registered user #290801
Windows 98 no se cuelg·$%&/# NO CARRIER
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Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: El 8 Apr 2004 08:33:51 GMT, Joona I Palaste escribió: People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
spoken sounds.
I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".) Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations? (I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly,
but I think I know it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
Fair enough, but seeing as it's pronounced in Finnish like the
consonant 'y' in English and Spanish, it strikes me as a little weird.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"It was, er, quite bookish."
- Horace Boothroyd
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Joona I Palaste wrote:
Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: El 8 Apr 2004 08:33:51 GMT, Joona I Palaste escribió: People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
spoken sounds.
I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".)
Is this correct in some Spanish dialect with which I'm unfamiliar?
I thought the word for "kilogram" in Spanish was... well.. "kilogramo."
Certainly the "gramme" ending in Joona's word isn't Spanish; Spanish
doesn't double consonants. Looks like a weird Ibero-British hybrid
to me. :)
(After Googling: is this something like Catalan?)
Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations? (I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly,
but I think I know it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
The two-'l' letter is the "elle" (pronounced roughly like the
English letter "A": "A-yay"). In words, it's pronounced like the
English 'y': "me llamo" -> "may yamo". And perfectly regularly so.
Spanish used to consider both the 'll' and the 'ch' to be letters
in their own right, along with the enye (n+tilde; sorry, not in my
encoding). But IIRC recently the Spanish people in charge of the
"official" language decided to give up the separate letters for 'ch'
and 'll', and now you'll find "llama" in between "liviano" and "local"
in the dictionary.
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
I'd say, because Spanish doesn't consider 'y' either a consonant or
a vowel, just as in English. The 'y' sound is kind of in-between.
In any event, the 'y' in "yo" isn't really acting like a consonant:
it's just adding the extra "ee" sort of sound. Just like it's doing
in "hay," which without the 'y' would be pronounced "ahh." With the
'y', it's pronounced "ahh-ee," but run together into "ai."
[It's weird trying to write down phonetic descriptions in "English"
syllables, when we're talking about a *more* phonetic language in the
first place, and I know English isn't your first language in the second
place. ;) ]
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
Correct, AFAIK.
Fair enough, but seeing as it's pronounced in Finnish like the
consonant 'y' in English and Spanish, it strikes me as a little weird.
Sounds to me like *Finnish* is the weird one. ;-))
-Arthur
"Joona I Palaste" <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:c5**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".) Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations?
'ch', 'll', and 'rr' are considered separate letters in the Spanish alphabet
with their own pronunciation, not combinations of two letters. For example,
the word "churro" has four letters and should come _after_ "cuba" in sort
order. Arguably, 'qu' should be another (composite) letter as well,
especially since 'q' isn't used on its own.
"kilogramo" or just "kilo" are the words I know in Spanish, by the way.
However, since 'k' is not in the Spanish alphabet, I presume the correct
spelling is "quilogramo". The -mme ending in your spelling looks French,
not Spanish.
(I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly, but I think I know
it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
The exact pronunciation of 'll' depends on dialect; most pronounce it as the
French do, with a 'y' sound.
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
For every word I can think of, you get the correct pronunciation (for most
dialects) if you replace 'y' with 'i' -- in fact the name of 'y' is "i
griega", or "greek i". Of course, there are dialects where the consonant
sound of 'y' is very different, but that's an aberration.
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
Fair enough, but seeing as it's pronounced in Finnish like the
consonant 'y' in English and Spanish, it strikes me as a little weird.
When switching between English, Spanish, and French, the 'j' probably trips
me up more than anything else since it has totally different sounds in each.
Most other letters sound the same in at least two of them.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart
CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with
K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Aaron Sorkin
Alberto Giménez wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
El 8 Apr 2004 08:33:51 GMT, Joona I Palaste escribió:
People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
spoken sounds.
I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
With all due respect, Spain (Iberia) has four (more?) regions with
their own languages. Castille, Andalusia, Catalonia, Basque, etc.
Which of these are you talking about? Then there is Central and most
of South America. Do you suppose these people write and pronounce
Spanish the same, or even like you do? How do you pronounce
'tortilla' where you live, and what would you get if you ordered it?
How would you pronounce it in Mexico and what would you get?
Phonetic spelling is tedious so bear with me if you can.
In Spain it is 'tor-TILL-ya' and is very much like an omelette.
In Mexico it is 'tor-TEE-ya' and is a dry corn pancake.
--
Joe Wright mailto:jo********@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote: Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled:
Joona I Palaste escribió: People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
spoken sounds.
I must agree with you here. One can make a fairly good guess at a
Finnish word's pronunciation by interpreting its letters as letters
in the International Phonetic Association's alphabet
(http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html)
I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".) Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations? (I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly,
but I think I know it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
Another minor point that comes to mind: 'c' in "capitan" vs. 'c'
in "Barcelona". I'm no authority on Spanish pronunciation but I
believe these two are different.
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
In fact 'j' in Spanish is a consonant that does not occur in English
(it does occur in German, and most other european languages).
English speakers say it as 'h' because it is the closest-matching
English sound. In fact it is common for allophones (sounds which differ
audibly but are interchangeable in pronunciation without affecting
the word) to be "heard" as only one sound, by people who have not put
effort into discerning the difference. Another example is English 'th'
in "thick" vs. "then".
At any rate this isn't a "problem" , I interpret "pronounced as it
is written" to mean "the same letter has the same pronunciation,
regardless of its context".
Old Wolf <ol*****@inspire.net.nz> scribbled the following: Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote: Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled:
Joona I Palaste escribió: >> People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
>> been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
>> studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
>> gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
>> spoken sounds.
I must agree with you here. One can make a fairly good guess at a
Finnish word's pronunciation by interpreting its letters as letters
in the International Phonetic Association's alphabet
(http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html)
In fact, I once had a cursory glance at ASCII-IPA to see how the
Finnish word "yhdysvaltalainen"'s (USAn) pronunication is written in
ASCII-IPA. Turns out it's /yhdysvaltalainen/.
> I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
> it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".) Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations? (I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly,
but I think I know it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
Another minor point that comes to mind: 'c' in "capitan" vs. 'c'
in "Barcelona". I'm no authority on Spanish pronunciation but I
believe these two are different.
Oh yes, I didn't think about that one.
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
In fact 'j' in Spanish is a consonant that does not occur in English
(it does occur in German, and most other european languages).
English speakers say it as 'h' because it is the closest-matching
English sound. In fact it is common for allophones (sounds which differ
audibly but are interchangeable in pronunciation without affecting
the word) to be "heard" as only one sound, by people who have not put
effort into discerning the difference. Another example is English 'th'
in "thick" vs. "then".
At any rate this isn't a "problem" , I interpret "pronounced as it
is written" to mean "the same letter has the same pronunciation,
regardless of its context".
Yes, and this means that neither Spanish nor English is "pronounced
as written". Finnish is *almost* - the 'n' in "ng" or "nk" is not
pronounced like a normal 'n'. Otherwise it's "pronounced as written".
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"Holy Banana of this, Sacred Coconut of that, Magic Axolotl of the other."
- Guardian in "Jinxter"
Dan Pop wrote : In <40*********************@news.club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <ab****@nospam.fr> writes:
There are such contests for French, too. The winners are usually NOT
native French speakers.
That's not true. The most popular contest is "la dictée de Pivot" also
known as "Les Dicos d'or" and the winners are usually French, but there
is a category for non native French speakers.
Obviously, a non-native French speaker cannot win at the category reserved
to native French speakers :-) I was talking about open contests.
May I know which contests? I know that an Austrian, the Prince of
Metternich supposedly won the famous and first such contest, "la dictée
de Mérimée", but other sources say it was his daugther-in-law, Pauline
Sandoz, a native French speaker and not the Prince himself. Moreover, at
this time (1857), French was the international language used in
diplomacy, so many non native French spearkers possessed an almost
perfect knowledge of the French language, which is not the case anymore. [...] getting it right when writing requires
a solid understanding of the French grammar (otherwise, it's trivially
easy to mix up, e.g. the infinitive and past participle of most regular
verbs).
Although your last example is a common mistake, it's very easy to avoid
it for a native french speaker: just replace the verb by another one
(usually "prendre") and its pronunciation discriminates between the
infinitive and the past participle.
It doesn't matter how easy it is to avoid, what really matters is that it
is a *very* common mistake. If the written form sounds correctly, far too
many people don't bother to make the slightest effort to check that it is
the correct form.
What I meant is that you don't need a "solid understanding of the French
grammar" to avoid this mistake if you are a native French speaker, as
you can use a simple method based on pronunciation. However it is true
you cannot write correct French without paying some attention. Besides French grammar, spelling French is difficult because of the many
ways (not as much as English, though) to write the same sound and
because of the presence of mute letters (much more than English), e.g.
"saint", "sain", "sein", "seing", "ceint", "cinq" all share an identical
pronunciation but a different meaning.
It's not that difficult, once you get the hang of it. As a non-native
French speaker I was able to correctly spell words I was hearing for the
first time. And the context helps a lot when disambiguating between
words with identical or near identical pronunciation, just like
in English.
Such words are often used during French spelling contests. For example,
"les cuisseaux de veau et les cuissots de chevreuil" was used by Mérimée
in his famous spelling contest. "Cuissot" and "cuisseau" designate, with
an identical pronunciation, the same part of different animals. As they
are not a very common words, it's quite hard to get the right spelling.
--
Richard
Arthur J. O'Dwyer <aj*@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> scribbled the following: On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Joona I Palaste wrote: Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: > El 8 Apr 2004 08:33:51 GMT, Joona I Palaste escribió:
>> People here might know next to nothing about Finnish, but like it's
>> been said, Finnish is pronounced pretty much like it's written. I have
>> studied (at least cursorily) many languages, and I truly believe Finnish
>> gets the closest to a 1-1 correspondence between written glyphs and
>> spoken sounds.
>
> I'm spanish, and I have to say that spanish is *exactly* pronounced as
> it is written, except for "h" letter, that is not pronounced at all.
Close, but no cigar. Some minor points: Why is the 'u' in "qu"
pronounced differently than the normal 'u'? (For example "una
quilogramme".)
Is this correct in some Spanish dialect with which I'm unfamiliar?
I thought the word for "kilogram" in Spanish was... well.. "kilogramo."
Certainly the "gramme" ending in Joona's word isn't Spanish; Spanish
doesn't double consonants. Looks like a weird Ibero-British hybrid
to me. :)
(After Googling: is this something like Catalan?)
I don't know how to spell Spanish correctly. I just have a general idea
of it.
Why do 'l' by itself and "ll" have separate
pronunciations? (I don't know how the "ll" is pronounced correctly,
but I think I know it's *not* pronounced as two 'l' sounds.)
The two-'l' letter is the "elle" (pronounced roughly like the
English letter "A": "A-yay"). In words, it's pronounced like the
English 'y': "me llamo" -> "may yamo". And perfectly regularly so.
Spanish used to consider both the 'll' and the 'ch' to be letters
in their own right, along with the enye (n+tilde; sorry, not in my
encoding). But IIRC recently the Spanish people in charge of the
"official" language decided to give up the separate letters for 'ch'
and 'll', and now you'll find "llama" in between "liviano" and "local"
in the dictionary.
IMHO, that's just silly. Considering a group of multiple glyphs as a
single letter can be very confusing.
Why can 'y' be both a consonant (like in "yo") and a vowel (like in
"hay")?
I'd say, because Spanish doesn't consider 'y' either a consonant or
a vowel, just as in English. The 'y' sound is kind of in-between.
In any event, the 'y' in "yo" isn't really acting like a consonant:
it's just adding the extra "ee" sort of sound. Just like it's doing
in "hay," which without the 'y' would be pronounced "ahh." With the
'y', it's pronounced "ahh-ee," but run together into "ai."
[It's weird trying to write down phonetic descriptions in "English"
syllables, when we're talking about a *more* phonetic language in the
first place, and I know English isn't your first language in the second
place. ;) ]
I make a distinction between the consonant and vowel forms. In some
languages, it can even affect the syllable count. Compare the two
Finnish names "Marja" and "Maria". The first is two syllables: Mar-ja.
The second is three syllables: Ma-ri-a.
I suppose 'j' in Spanish is always pronounced like 'h' in English.
Correct, AFAIK.
Fair enough, but seeing as it's pronounced in Finnish like the
consonant 'y' in English and Spanish, it strikes me as a little weird.
Sounds to me like *Finnish* is the weird one. ;-))
I have to be of the exact opposite opinion. Have you ever looked at
how similar the glyphs 'I' and 'J', or 'i' and 'j' are? And that they're
next to each other in the alphabet?
Especially since 'j' is the only consonant with a dot? It seems clear
that 'j' is intended to be the consonant form of 'i', not some silly 'tsch'
thing like your Anglosaxon has. AFAIK it *was* the consonant form of 'i'
in Latin but it got later corrupted.
Finnish is not the only language to use 'j' as the consonant form of
'i'. At least Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German also use it.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"A bee could, in effect, gather its junk. Llamas (no poor quadripeds) tune
and vow excitedly zooming."
- JIPsoft
In <40**********************@news.club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <ab****@nospam.fr> writes: Dan Pop wrote : In <40*********************@news.club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <ab****@nospam.fr> writes:
There are such contests for French, too. The winners are usually NOT
native French speakers.
That's not true. The most popular contest is "la dictée de Pivot" also
known as "Les Dicos d'or" and the winners are usually French, but there
is a category for non native French speakers.
Obviously, a non-native French speaker cannot win at the category reserved
to native French speakers :-) I was talking about open contests.
May I know which contests? I know that an Austrian, the Prince of
I don't remember. It's 15 years since I saw something on the TV about
such a contest and I only remember that the winner was not French.
[...] getting it right when writing requires
a solid understanding of the French grammar (otherwise, it's trivially
easy to mix up, e.g. the infinitive and past participle of most regular
verbs).
Although your last example is a common mistake, it's very easy to avoid
it for a native french speaker: just replace the verb by another one
(usually "prendre") and its pronunciation discriminates between the
infinitive and the past participle.
It doesn't matter how easy it is to avoid, what really matters is that it
is a *very* common mistake. If the written form sounds correctly, far too
many people don't bother to make the slightest effort to check that it is
the correct form.
What I meant is that you don't need a "solid understanding of the French
grammar" to avoid this mistake if you are a native French speaker, as
you can use a simple method based on pronunciation.
This was only meant as an example of common problem, see the "e.g."
prefixing it. There are many other cases where the correct form cannot
be decided using a simple-minded heuristic, ranging from plain and simple
conjugation, to subjonctif vs indicatif, si conditionnel, la concordance
des temps.
However it is true
you cannot write correct French without paying some attention.
No amount of attention can compensate a solid knowledge of French grammar. Besides French grammar, spelling French is difficult because of the many
ways (not as much as English, though) to write the same sound and
because of the presence of mute letters (much more than English), e.g.
"saint", "sain", "sein", "seing", "ceint", "cinq" all share an identical
pronunciation but a different meaning.
It's not that difficult, once you get the hang of it. As a non-native
French speaker I was able to correctly spell words I was hearing for the
first time. And the context helps a lot when disambiguating between
words with identical or near identical pronunciation, just like
in English.
Such words are often used during French spelling contests. For example,
"les cuisseaux de veau et les cuissots de chevreuil" was used by Mérimée
in his famous spelling contest. "Cuissot" and "cuisseau" designate, with
an identical pronunciation, the same part of different animals. As they
are not a very common words, it's quite hard to get the right spelling.
That's exactly what I was talking about : using the context for
disambiguation. Of course, it can only help if you know the words and
their meanings.
And the cuissot vs cuisseau issue is the perversity of a French linguist.
As a result, confusion reigns: try Google searches for
cuisseau-de-chevreuil and cuissot-de-veau and enjoy the results ;-)
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Joona I Palaste wrote... Arthur J. O'Dwyer <aj*@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> scribbled the following: Spanish used to consider both the 'll' and the 'ch' to be letters
in their own right, along with the enye (n+tilde; sorry, not in my
encoding). But IIRC recently the Spanish people in charge of the
"official" language decided to give up the separate letters for 'ch'
and 'll', and now you'll find "llama" in between "liviano" and "local"
in the dictionary.
IMHO, that's just silly. Considering a group of multiple glyphs as a
single letter can be very confusing.
Nevertheless, it seems to be a very common concept. I now know of three
languages that do this, and i wouldn't be suprised to find out that the
latin letter 'W' originated in this way.
M Henning.
Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote: Arthur J. O'Dwyer <aj*@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> scribbled the following:
<snip> Spanish used to consider both the 'll' and the 'ch' to be letters
in their own right, along with the enye (n+tilde; sorry, not in my
encoding). But IIRC recently the Spanish people in charge of the
"official" language decided to give up the separate letters for 'ch'
and 'll', and now you'll find "llama" in between "liviano" and "local"
in the dictionary.
IMHO, that's just silly. Considering a group of multiple glyphs as a
single letter can be very confusing.
But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
<snip> Sounds to me like *Finnish* is the weird one. ;-))
I have to be of the exact opposite opinion. Have you ever looked at
how similar the glyphs 'I' and 'J', or 'i' and 'j' are? And that they're
next to each other in the alphabet?
Especially since 'j' is the only consonant with a dot? It seems clear
that 'j' is intended to be the consonant form of 'i', not some silly 'tsch'
thing like your Anglosaxon has. AFAIK it *was* the consonant form of 'i'
in Latin but it got later corrupted.
Finnish is not the only language to use 'j' as the consonant form of
'i'. At least Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German also use it.
Sorry, no j/J in either Latin or Greek, AFAICT. Interestingly
enough, in German the letter 'j' is named "Jot", cf. greek "Iota"
for 'i'. Confusion complete. 8^S
Regards
--
Irrwahn Grausewitz (ir*******@freenet.de)
welcome to clc: http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt
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In <o4********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes: But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
Is the German 'ß' really a ligature for "sz"? If I were to write "Floß"
in ASCII, I'd use "Floss"... And my dictionary seems to agree, as
"Floß" is before "Flosse".
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Dan Pop <Da*****@cern.ch> scribbled the following: In <o4********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes:But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
Is the German 'ß' really a ligature for "sz"? If I were to write "Floß"
in ASCII, I'd use "Floss"... And my dictionary seems to agree, as
"Floß" is before "Flosse".
It was originally indeed a ligature for "sz", but its "expansion"
changed to "ss" after the ligature was established as a single letter.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"We sorcerers don't like to eat our words, so to say."
- Sparrowhawk Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote: In <o4********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes:
But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
Is the German 'ß' really a ligature for "sz"?
It indeed is. It's more obvious when you look at fractura(?) fonts
or suetterlin scripts: if you move an "inner" 's', meaning the long
vertically strectched one as opposed to the round "normal" 's'
(which is the only 's' used in modern fonts), very close to the
somewhat '3'-shaped olde 'z', you get the original sz-ligature glyph:
/
|
|___
| /
| \
| |
| _/
|
The sz-ligature somehow survived the death of the scripts/fonts it
originates from. BTW, the name the corresponding character entity
is, consequently, ß.
If I were to write "Floß"
in ASCII, I'd use "Floss"... And my dictionary seems to agree, as
"Floß" is before "Flosse".
It's debatable where in dictionary sort order the 'sz' should be
placed, since it's neither really two letters [1] nor one letter
of it's own right. However, at least my old Duden dict suggests to
transcript it to 'SZ' when writing all caps - should be "FLOSZ" then.
Nobody does this anymore nowadays in favor of "FLOSS", though, but
what's definitely utterly wrong is "FLOß", since there exists no
glyph for the uppercase sz-ligature.
[1] It's a sharpened 's', which does *not* force a preceeding vowel
to be shortened, as it usually happens before doubled consonants,
hence it's wrong to write "Floss" when you mean "Floß", or "Mass"
when you mean "Maß". Otherwise unwanted ambiguities could lead
to semantic problems, consider: what does "Sie tranken in Massen."
really mean?
When constrained to write in plain 7-bit ASCII things are of
course different, but then the sz problem throws me off much less
compared to the umlaut transcription mess.
Regards
--
Irrwahn Grausewitz (ir*******@freenet.de)
welcome to clc: http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt
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Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes: Dan Pop <Da*****@cern.ch> scribbled the following: In <o4********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes:But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
Is the German 'ß' really a ligature for "sz"? If I were to write "Floß"
in ASCII, I'd use "Floss"... And my dictionary seems to agree, as
"Floß" is before "Flosse".
It was originally indeed a ligature for "sz", but its "expansion"
changed to "ss" after the ligature was established as a single letter.
Also note that German originally had two glyphs for the letter s: one
for word endings, which looks like the modern letter s, and one for the
middle of words, which looks like the letter f without the horizontal
line. If you imagine a ligature of the latter letter and the letter z,
the similarity to the letter ß is easy to see.
Martin
--
,--. Martin Dickopp, Dresden, Germany ,= ,-_-. =.
/ ,- ) http://www.zero-based.org/ ((_/)o o(\_))
\ `-' `-'(. .)`-'
`-. Debian, a variant of the GNU operating system. \_/
Martin Dickopp <ex****************@zero-based.org> scribbled the following: Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes: Dan Pop <Da*****@cern.ch> scribbled the following: In <o4********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes:
But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß"). Is the German 'ß' really a ligature for "sz"? If I were to write "Floß"
in ASCII, I'd use "Floss"... And my dictionary seems to agree, as
"Floß" is before "Flosse".
It was originally indeed a ligature for "sz", but its "expansion"
changed to "ss" after the ligature was established as a single letter.
Also note that German originally had two glyphs for the letter s: one
for word endings, which looks like the modern letter s, and one for the
middle of words, which looks like the letter f without the horizontal
line. If you imagine a ligature of the latter letter and the letter z,
the similarity to the letter ß is easy to see.
The same style was true for Finnish (s for word endings and f without a
horizontal line elsewhere), in the bad old days when some foreign big
shot decreed that only Swedish may be written with readable letters,
Finnish must be written with those fancy posh Fraktura letters that no
one can read without starting at each one of them for at least five
seconds.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"'It can be easily shown that' means 'I saw a proof of this once (which I didn't
understand) which I can no longer remember'."
- A maths teacher
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El Tue, 13 Apr 2004 21:36:25 GMT, Stephen Sprunk escribió:
"kilogramo" or just "kilo" are the words I know in Spanish, by the way.
However, since 'k' is not in the Spanish alphabet, I presume the correct
spelling is "quilogramo".
k forms part of spanish alphabet (but rarely used). Both words are
accepted.
- --
Alberto Giménez, SimManiac en el IRC http://www.almorranasozial.es.vg
GNU/Linux Debian Woody 3.0 GnuPG ID: 0x3BAABDE1
Linux registered user #290801
WinError 01E: Timing error - Please wait. And wait. And wait. And wait.
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El Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:30:03 -0400, Joe Wright escribió: With all due respect, Spain (Iberia) has four (more?) regions with
their own languages. Castille, Andalusia, Catalonia, Basque, etc.
Which of these are you talking about?
Spanish is Spanish, everywhere. Another thing is dialects, or people's
pronounciation. Other topic is Catalan, Basque, "gallego" (don't know
translation), which are languages on their own.
An "andaluz" *should* write spanish exactly as a "castellano" would, but
they pronnounce diferently. It's about "andaluz" dialect, not about
Spanish as a language
Phonetic spelling is tedious so bear with me if you can.
In Spain it is 'tor-TILL-ya' and is very much like an omelette.
In Mexico it is 'tor-TEE-ya' and is a dry corn pancake.
I think this is not what we are discussing here. You are talking about
different meanings of a word. It's not about pronounciation or grammar
rules. Well, south american spanish is quite like a "dialect" of
Spain's, by their pronounciation, but written is the same. A mexican
would write "tortilla" where I write "tortilla" :)
Reading this thread, and your posts, I've seen that spanish has a lot of
grammar and so peculiarities which i don't care, perhaps because i'm
used with the language...
Can I change my opinion and say that spanish is not quite 1-1? :) (of
course, it is more 1-1 than english or french (I also speak catalan,
that is similar to the last one, and has a lot more of peculiarities
than spanish)).
- --
Alberto Giménez, SimManiac en el IRC http://www.almorranasozial.es.vg
GNU/Linux Debian Woody 3.0 GnuPG ID: 0x3BAABDE1
Linux registered user #290801
WinError 01E: Timing error - Please wait. And wait. And wait. And wait.
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Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQFAfYg90keCtzuqveERAvJmAJ0arXuPm2+xxqMhOmduWA 8rRrAGKwCfYRLw
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=ajFX
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Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: Can I change my opinion and say that spanish is not quite 1-1? :) (of
course, it is more 1-1 than english or french (I also speak catalan,
that is similar to the last one, and has a lot more of peculiarities
than spanish)).
In fact, having studied quite a few of the Indo-European languages, I
have come to the conclusion that English and French are pretty much
the *only* languages who are not even close to 1-1. The others are
*almost* (but not quite) 1-1.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"C++ looks like line noise."
- Fred L. Baube III
Martin Dickopp wrote:
.... snip ...
Also note that German originally had two glyphs for the letter s: one
for word endings, which looks like the modern letter s, and one for the
middle of words, which looks like the letter f without the horizontal
line. If you imagine a ligature of the latter letter and the letter z,
the similarity to the letter ß is easy to see.
That was also present in English. Supplies all your preffing
needs.
--
Chuck F (cb********@yahoo.com) (cb********@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes: Alberto Giménez <al****@teleline.es> scribbled the following: Can I change my opinion and say that spanish is not quite 1-1? :) (of
course, it is more 1-1 than english or french (I also speak catalan,
that is similar to the last one, and has a lot more of peculiarities
than spanish)).
In fact, having studied quite a few of the Indo-European languages, I
have come to the conclusion that English and French are pretty much
the *only* languages who are not even close to 1-1. The others are
*almost* (but not quite) 1-1.
French, unlike English, is very nearly 1-many (or should I say
many-1). Given the spelling of a French word, you can almost always
determine how it's pronounced; going the other way is much more
difficult.
English, on the other hand, is many-many. The spelling of a word is
often insufficient to determine how it's pronounced, and the
pronunciation is often insufficient to determine how it's spelled.
See Dr. Seuss's "The tough coughs as he ploughs the dough" (pronounced
"The tuff coffs as he plows the doe").
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Schroedinger does Shakespeare: "To be *and* not to be"
In article <c5**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
Yes, and this means that neither Spanish nor English is "pronounced
as written". Finnish is *almost* - the 'n' in "ng" or "nk" is not
pronounced like a normal 'n'. Otherwise it's "pronounced as written".
Japanese is pronounced as written, if you write it that way.
(OK, n' can be pronounced as /n/ or /m/, but that's a trivial
difference and a mistake would never cause confusion.)
If you write Japanese normally, of course, pronunciation can be a
real mystery, particularly for proper nouns.
Japanese can be written phonetically, using the kana syllabaries, but
no one other than young children and people beginning to study
Japanese as a foreign language does that, because it's almost
useless; Japanese is so full of homonyms that it becomes very
ambiguous. So proper written Japanese uses a mix of kana and kanji,
which are logographs adapted from Chinese. Typically kanji represent
the roots of nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, and kana is used
for grammatical suffixes and particles, other particles that serve as
postpositions, for sounding out onomatopoeia and foreign-origin
loan-words, and so forth.
Since each kanji typically has more than one pronunciation (often
due to associating it with both a spoken Japanese word and the
spoken (in whatever dialect) Chinese word it was adopted from),
reading written Japanese aloud often requires recognizing what word
is meant and then recalling how it's pronounced. And if it's a
proper name, there are often two or more reasonable choices; you
have to find someone who's familiar with the thing being named to
be sure.
Whether that's better or worse than English is a matter of taste.
You have to learn more symbols (about 2000) with Japanese, but
fewer wierd rules and exceptions. And with Japanese it's often
easier to understand the sense of a sentence even when you're not
sure how it should be pronounced.
--
Michael Wojcik mi************@microfocus.com
Thanks for your prompt reply and thanks for your invitatin to your
paradise. Based on Buddihism transmigration, I realize you, European,
might be a philanthropist in previous life! -- supplied by Stacy Vickers
Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> wrote in
news:o4********************************@4ax.com: Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:Arthur J. O'Dwyer <aj*@nospam.andrew.cmu.edu> scribbled the following:
<snip> Spanish used to consider both the 'll' and the 'ch' to be letters
in their own right, along with the enye (n+tilde; sorry, not in my
encoding). But IIRC recently the Spanish people in charge of the
"official" language decided to give up the separate letters for 'ch'
and 'll', and now you'll find "llama" in between "liviano" and
"local" in the dictionary.
IMHO, that's just silly. Considering a group of multiple glyphs as a
single letter can be very confusing.
But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?), the french 'oe'
("oevre") or the german 'sz' ("Floß").
English had (and still does, occasionally, have) ligatures and 'single
character' replacements too. Most of the silliness of "Ye Olde Print
Shoppe" being pronounced as "Yeee old print shop" was caused by the Herr
Guttenberg's device not having a 'thorn' character. The 'Y' was closest
glyph to it available (as standard), and hence it was common in print.
The thorn character was eventually replaced with 'th'. Remember folks:
"Ye" is just "The"!
(The thorn glyph was used by JRR Tolkien in the runes on the map Thorin
had in the hobbit. It sort of looks like:
|\
|/
|
)
Ian Woods
--
"I'm a paranoid schizophrenic sado-masochist.
My other half's out to get me and I can't wait."
Richard Heathfield
Ian Woods <ne******@wuggyNOCAPS.org> wrote:
<snip> English had (and still does, occasionally, have) ligatures and 'single
character' replacements too. Most of the silliness of "Ye Olde Print
Shoppe" being pronounced as "Yeee old print shop" was caused by the Herr
Guttenberg's device not having a 'thorn' character. The 'Y' was closest
glyph to it available (as standard), and hence it was common in print.
That's interesting, I always wondered about the 'Ye' thing.
Luckily, 'Y' and not 'P' was chosen as a substitute... ;-)
Regards
--
Irrwahn Grausewitz (ir*******@freenet.de)
welcome to clc: http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt
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In <t7**********@127.0.0.1> Alberto =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gim=E9nez?= <al****@teleline.es> writes: El Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:30:03 -0400, Joe Wright escribió: With all due respect, Spain (Iberia) has four (more?) regions with
their own languages. Castille, Andalusia, Catalonia, Basque, etc.
Which of these are you talking about?
Spanish is Spanish, everywhere. Another thing is dialects, or people's
pronounciation. Other topic is Catalan, Basque, "gallego" (don't know
translation), which are languages on their own.
Then, why do I see "Castellano" on so many DVDs, instead of "Español"?
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Irrwahn Grausewitz wrote:
But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?),
The 'ae' is scandinavian and not purely danish. It is a single letter
though and has its own place in the alphabeth (it is number 27).
Norwegian examples: "baer" (berry), "skjaere" (cut) (also of interest is
is the skj sound, does not exist in english really, sort of like "ssh").
The ae is a single glyph though, æ.
So the above examples would be "bær" and "skjære".
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen <ts*****@cis.strath.ac.uk> scribbled the following: Irrwahn Grausewitz wrote: But it's a concept not unheard of; other examples of ligatures are
the dutch 'ij' ("kijk"), the danish 'ae' (example?),
The 'ae' is scandinavian and not purely danish. It is a single letter
though and has its own place in the alphabeth (it is number 27).
Norwegian examples: "baer" (berry), "skjaere" (cut) (also of interest is
is the skj sound, does not exist in english really, sort of like "ssh").
The ae is a single glyph though, æ.
So the above examples would be "bær" and "skjære".
It's *NOT* "Scandinavian". Only Danish and Norwegian (and maybe
Icelandic) use it. Finnish and Swedish use ä and ö instead of æ and ø.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"There's no business like slow business."
- Tailgunner
In <p9********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes: It's debatable where in dictionary sort order the 'sz' should be
placed, since it's neither really two letters [1] nor one letter
of it's own right. However, at least my old Duden dict suggests to
transcript it to 'SZ' when writing all caps - should be "FLOSZ" then.
What is beyond debate is that, under the new German spelling rules,
words like Abfluß became Abfluss and not Abflusz.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Joona I Palaste wrote:
It's *NOT* "Scandinavian". Only Danish and Norwegian (and maybe
Icelandic) use it. Finnish and Swedish use ä and ö instead of æ and ø.
Finland is not part of Scandinavia you know ;) Anyways yeah, I was
thinking of the sound, the letter has different appearance.
Some people include Finland in Scandinavia, but they are wrong.
Norway, Denmark and Sweden recognise each other as scandinavian,
they recognise no other countries as such. If you want to include
Finland and Iceland use the term "the nordic countries".
Finland and Russia lies on the scandinavian peninsula, but denmark
does not. So it is a bit strange that denmark is part of scandinavia
while finland is not from a geographical viewpoint. From a historic
perspective it is not so strange. The scandinavist political movement
advocated unifying Denmark, Sweden and Norway into a single kingdom.
Finland was part of the Russian empire and so couldn't be included in
this union, so a new term was invented to to mean the nordic
countries excluding Finland, this term was scandinavia. Now, this union
was never to be, but there was a monetary union (kroner) until the first
world war. We still use kroner, but they are not compatible with
eachother.
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen <ts*****@cis.strath.ac.uk> scribbled the following: Joona I Palaste wrote: It's *NOT* "Scandinavian". Only Danish and Norwegian (and maybe
Icelandic) use it. Finnish and Swedish use ä and ö instead of æ and ø.
Finland is not part of Scandinavia you know ;) Anyways yeah, I was
thinking of the sound, the letter has different appearance.
Some people include Finland in Scandinavia, but they are wrong.
Norway, Denmark and Sweden recognise each other as scandinavian,
they recognise no other countries as such. If you want to include
Finland and Iceland use the term "the nordic countries".
I am aware of the formal situation. But generally when people talk
about Scandinavia, they mean the Nordic countries. I was going by the
pragmatic definition. Isn't pragmatism what this newsgroup is about
these days?
Finland and Russia lies on the scandinavian peninsula, but denmark
does not. So it is a bit strange that denmark is part of scandinavia
while finland is not from a geographical viewpoint. From a historic
perspective it is not so strange. The scandinavist political movement
advocated unifying Denmark, Sweden and Norway into a single kingdom.
Finland was part of the Russian empire and so couldn't be included in
this union, so a new term was invented to to mean the nordic
countries excluding Finland, this term was scandinavia. Now, this union
was never to be, but there was a monetary union (kroner) until the first
world war. We still use kroner, but they are not compatible with
eachother.
If Russia had never conquered Finland, the entire Finnish culture and
language would have ceased to exist as Finland would have been
assimilated into this aforementioned union. So, as much as we Finns hate
the Russians, they saved our entire culture and language from our *real*
enemies - the Scandinavians! (Only kidding - nothing personal against
Scandinavians, myself.)
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"As we all know, the hardware for the PC is great, but the software sucks."
- Petro Tyschtschenko
Joona I Palaste wrote:
I am aware of the formal situation. But generally when people talk
about Scandinavia, they mean the Nordic countries.
Not when you are in Scandinavia.
I was going by the
pragmatic definition. Isn't pragmatism what this newsgroup is about
these days?
It is not a pragmatic definition, it is a mistake, common though.
When people here in britain ask me about Scandinavia I am usually
pragmatic and ask tell them that Finland is not part of scandinavia
if it is relevant (I also mention the Nordic countries at this point).
I don't just "assume" they know what they are talking about and go on
explaining.
--
Thomas. Da*****@cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote: In <p9********************************@4ax.com> Irrwahn Grausewitz <ir*******@freenet.de> writes:
It's debatable where in dictionary sort order the 'sz' should be
placed, since it's neither really two letters [1] nor one letter
of it's own right. However, at least my old Duden dict suggests to
transcript it to 'SZ' when writing all caps - should be "FLOSZ" then.
What is beyond debate is that, under the new German spelling rules,
words like Abfluß became Abfluss and not Abflusz.
_What's_ beyond debate is that the spelling "Abfluß" was
braindead in the first place: the word is pronounced with a
short and not a long 'u'. [1]
That's one of the few things the so-called experts who are the
glorified fathers of this infamous german Rechtschreibreform
actually got right. Unnecessary to add that it's extremely
surprising they managed to get anything right in the end.
[1] Consider: Fluss vs. Fuß, Fass vs. Fraß, Masse vs. Maße, etc.
Regards
--
Irrwahn Grausewitz (ir*******@freenet.de)
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In <c5**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes: If Russia had never conquered Finland, the entire Finnish culture and
language would have ceased to exist as Finland would have been
assimilated into this aforementioned union.
How do you know? European minorities are notorious for their resistance
to *cultural* assimilation. Are the Finns any weaker than the Occitans
or the Csangos (which are far smaller ethnic groups)? Any idea about
how many people are native speakers of the fourth official Swiss language?
Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Da*****@ifh.de
Dan Pop <Da*****@cern.ch> scribbled the following: In <c5**********@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Joona I Palaste <pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:If Russia had never conquered Finland, the entire Finnish culture and
language would have ceased to exist as Finland would have been
assimilated into this aforementioned union.
How do you know? European minorities are notorious for their resistance
to *cultural* assimilation. Are the Finns any weaker than the Occitans
or the Csangos (which are far smaller ethnic groups)? Any idea about
how many people are native speakers of the fourth official Swiss language?
I don't *know*, I'm speculating here. Maybe the culture wouldn't have
totally vanished, but the language would. The Swedish monarchy at the
time was very intent in making Swedish the only official language in
their entire kingdom.
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pa*****@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\
\-- http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste --------------------- rules! --------/
"We're women. We've got double standards to live up to."
- Ally McBeal
Dan Pop a écrit : In <t7**********@127.0.0.1> Alberto =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gim=E9nez?= <al****@teleline.es> writes:
El Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:30:03 -0400, Joe Wright escribió:
With all due respect, Spain (Iberia) has four (more?) regions with
their own languages. Castille, Andalusia, Catalonia, Basque, etc.
Which of these are you talking about?
Spanish is Spanish, everywhere. Another thing is dialects, or people's
pronounciation. Other topic is Catalan, Basque, "gallego" (don't know
translation), which are languages on their own.
Then, why do I see "Castellano" on so many DVDs, instead of "Español"?
Four languages are spoken in Spain: Basque, Castilian, Catalan and
Galician. So, inside Spain, Spanish (Español) is called Castilian
(Castellano) to distinguish it from the other languages. As Castilian is
the main language spoken in Spain, and the one that spread out, outside
Spain it is usually called Spanish.
--
Richard ol*****@inspire.net.nz (Old Wolf) writes: None of these would change the meanings of words, or cause confusion.
Certainly if you use the Japanese letters then there is no doubt.
Not entirely true: if I recall correctly, the hiragana character
for "ha" is sometimes pronounced "wa", the hiragana character for
"wo" is sometimes pronounced "o", and there may be other
exceptions that I am unaware of.
--
"To get the best out of this book, I strongly recommend that you read it."
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