do serious programmers have a life?

[amanda992004]

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* am**********@yahoo.com:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Your question is off-topic in this group, but try [comp.programming].

For convenience I've cross-posted there, and set follow-up there.

XFUT: [comp.programming].

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Mike Wahler]

<am**********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot.
Same way someone in any other profession does. Why do you feel
that a programmer must spend all his time programming?
Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?
Certainly.

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Not from where I'm sitting.

-Mike

[persenaama]

> Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

No, not really as it's just means to an end.. if working for
interesting things the work is a lot of fun. :)

[Karl Heinz Buchegger]

am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Not at all.
It is more like an artist or a scientific discoverer. You know, the
"to boldly go where no man has gone before" thing.

--
Karl Heinz Buchegger
kb******@gascad.at

[Milind]

> Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Nopes; Not from where i see it.

Its like you are doing something in art and then that art is being
verified against and system which has definite rules...

In terms of Fashion designers, it has to be creative, innovative and
still "Wearable"... with so much of creative challenges, life just
cannot be like a robot... just cant be.

~M

[Phlip]

amanda992004 wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc. (But heck, at least we don't cut off the wrong limb like
overworked doctors do...)

When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.

One pseudoscientific way to refer to this situation, popular these days
among technocrats, is that programming is "left-brained" and having a life
is "right brained". That's not accurate - all activities use both physical
sides of your brain - but it works adequately as a parable. Exercising your
right brain allows your left to rest and recharge.

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[stangerbanger]

I am not a,I am not a,I am not a,I am not a ,
I am not a ,I am not a , (BANG) Thank you.
robot.

<am**********@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

[Jon Slaughter]

"Phlip" <ph******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CI***************@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net. ..

amanda992004 wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc. (But heck, at least we don't cut off the wrong limb like
overworked doctors do...)

I don't agree with that... many times I have stayed up late at night and
when I "get up" in the morning all my code has been written ;) and it works
usually ;)

When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not
adding value but removing value from a program. Go home.

Yeah, but what point is that? If you don't work enough you tend not be
productive enough because you are not involved in the coding enough... like
if you try to only code 1 hr a day or something on a complicated project
then on vacation for the rest of the day.
One pseudoscientific way to refer to this situation, popular these days
among technocrats, is that programming is "left-brained" and having a life
is "right brained". That's not accurate - all activities use both physical
sides of your brain - but it works adequately as a parable. Exercising
your right brain allows your left to rest and recharge.

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.
Well, tell that to their bosses ;)

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Phlip]

Jon Slaughter wrote:

I don't agree with that... many times I have stayed up late at night and
when I "get up" in the morning all my code has been written ;) and it
works usually ;)
I see the ;)s; the word to the newbies is "heroism is not sustainable". The
occassional inspiration-driven all-nighter is mostly harmless.

The original poster reported "feeling like a robot", which is a clear sign
of sleep deprivation.

Fresh thinkers can spot the latent abstractions in their code, express
these, and achieve the "Open Closed Principle", where code is easy to extend
and hard to break. Sleepy thinkers don't spot these abstractions, and make
the same high-risk edits over and over again to add features.

When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not
adding value but removing value from a program. Go home. Yeah, but what point is that? If you don't work enough you tend not be
productive enough because you are not involved in the coding enough...
like if you try to only code 1 hr a day or something on a complicated
project then on vacation for the rest of the day.

?

If your boss doesn't mind, that's still lower risk than chronic overtime.
With your system the schedule will also go long, but at least bugs won't
accumulate.
Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

Well, tell that to their bosses ;)

Uh, there are serious movements afoot to do so. The "EAspouse" blog
resonated with a lot of programmers, even outside the game industry.
Enforcing overtime (even via the subtle channels of rewarding chronic
overtimers without actually setting a policy) is immoral, almost illegal,
unethical, and very bad for the technology.

Some bosses get that. The rest will learn it, either from their own
programmers, or from the competition.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[amanda992004]

Phlip wrote:

amanda992004 wrote:
<snip>

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

But do they? Are they allowed?

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Grahamo]

Dear amanda,

"Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
"

I am delighted you ask this question. In fact, not a lot of
(non-programmer) people are aware of the life of a typical software
engineer, so I'll take the time to enlighten you.

As a programmer robot, our day is actually defined by a series of
routines, or "subroutines" to us programmer types. It varies from
robot to robot (or should I say programmer to programmer) but the
underlying pattern is the same.

Subroutine_compubyte_2a_nanopixel_usb_part1:

I wake up every morning to a cup of metal bolts and warm castol oil, it
limbers me up nicely. The castrol oil is essential so all my movable
joints stay in shape and it also helps to prevent corrusion. Once I've
oiled my nuts and tightened any loose fitting hinges, I like to take a
quick grease shower. It's immensley refreshing to start the day like
that before heading off to the lab. Once I've meticulously completed
this initial morning routine my code process execution flow allows me
to proceed the pre-departure subroutine.
Subroutine_compubyte_2a_nanopixel_usb_part2:
This subroutine is second in the day an essentially dictates how I
leave the house and engage in the transportation process to work, it
begins the moment I secure the private tokenised security algorithm on
my lower port B docking subnet. (locked the front door). Once that has
completed and the I'm secure in my mind that the motherboard lockout
module has completed I am ready to engage the hoverboard quasi
transpo-vector process. This involves my activating the motor reel on
my chevretron X234.rr1. I am guaranteed delivery to my laboratory
destination within 15 minutes under normal operating conditions. The
chevretron X234.rr1 is the transport model of choice for us robot
programmers and we are entitled to free upgrades every 8 years.

subroutine_alpha_argv_psp_box_datacom_1s1aaa.rr65
This is the third part of my day and begins once I've stepped out of my
chevretron X234.rr1 transporter. It activates the "at work" environment
which is pre-programmed into all robots. It's the special module we
programmers use to communicate and work throughout the day. In essence
it's basically a secret encoding mechanism that protects programmers
from other non-programmer types. It allows us to communicate using
strange words and it also allows us to identify non-programmer robots.
For example have you ever been in a scenario where you've heard
somebody say things like;

"Hi alf, I'm getting bit hard by a classic dreaded diamond scenario.
It's a polymorphic nightmare and I'm considering a total refactor. With
any luck the recompile won't instantiate too many templates and my
relink time will be minimal"

"Ah Victor, long time no see. Yeah, I'd go for the refactor option, why
not consider another 3GL and protect yourself via interfaces?"

If yes, then you've actually been in the company of programmer robots.
There is no need to worry, simply observe. Don't try to understand or
they (might) turn nasty.

Similarly has anybody ever asked you;

"Hey Amanda, know where I can download the latest JRE?"

If yes, then you've been probed by a programmer robot. Nothing to be
afraid of really, they were just checking to see if you were a robot
programmer or not. ButI digress. Anyways, once
subroutine_alpha_argv_psp_box_datacom_1s1aaa.rr65 has been initialised
and I'm in my work environment, I proceed to my docking station. Each
programmer robot has a unique computer programming environment that is
unique. Once at their programming environment the programmer robot
starts programming. This entails using a bizarre sequence of numbers,
characters and special keys on their keyboard that is understood by
nobody outside the robot world. Each robot has their favourite set of
these numbers, keys and characters and they even mean different things
on different computers. On top of that these special keys and
characters are constantly changing. That means that no matter how much
a programmer robot knows, he never knows it ALL. He is constantly using
these special keys and characters and learning about new ones. The more
new ones he learns, the more are created. There is an INFINITE supply
of other robots that are constantly creating new keys and special
characters that robots need to learn. It's a constant cycle that never
changes and is to conintue for infinity. Anyways, the programmer robot
does this stuff all day and never tires of it. From time to time a
programmer will blow a transitor or an internal hardware error will
cause him to malfunction. The malfunctions are great fun. It basically
causes the robot-programmer to turn into a normal "human being" for a
while. By this I mean, he has emotions and senses and feelings, just
like a human. The robot programmer when malfunctioning, will enter a
rage. The rage is all consuming and is completely out of his control.
It consumes the robot programmer and he is compelled to seek out the
solution to a puzzle that is an obsession. he becomes fixated by issues
which a normal human would find laughable. For example, imagine
somebody asked you to go to your wardrobe and place your 3 favourite
frocks on your bed. Well you would do just simply that, wouldn't you?
Well a malfunctioning robot programmer cannot do that. He must find out
the "optimal" means of getting to the wardrobe (after he's determined
where is currently is, so he can perform repositioning relative to his
current location). Now once the frocks have been recovered from the
wardrobe (and it's significant to the programmer what type of clothes
container the wardrobe is), he is in a position to select his
favourites and put them on the bed. The malfunctioning programmer will
spend days, hours , even weeks trying to figure out the BEST way of
arranging the frocks on the bed... and he will not give up until the
optimal solution is found.

"Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
"

I'm too tired to go on........what do you think amanda? How do robots
feel? Do robots have feelings? Or do you mean "feel" in the context of
"grope". How do you feel?

I'm off to the pub now and if things go my way, I'll get lucky and laid
by a scorching blonde in the club tonight. that should answer your
question.

G

[Phlip]

amanda992004 wrote:

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.
But do they?

Some programmers like to play the hero, some get stuck and must work all
night, and some don't know any better.
Are they allowed?

Sewing machine operators are allowed to. Why not programmers?

If you were a boss, what reasons could you give to defend enforced overtime?

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Grahamo]

> Programmers should go home on time and have a life.
But do they? Are they allowed?

Amanda, I'm stuck here at work, could you please come and get me. My
boss won't let me go home..........

Please AMANDA........come get me!!! I'm on the 25th floor beside the
coffee machine.... QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phlip]

Grahamo wrote:

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

But do they? Are they allowed?

Amanda, I'm stuck here at work, could you please come and get me. My
boss won't let me go home..........

Please AMANDA........come get me!!! I'm on the 25th floor beside the
coffee machine.... QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda, dressed like Robert DeNiro in the movie Brazil, will now rappel thru
your window, sweep you into her arms, put a ULc25 Vice Grip on your belt
buckle, explain to your boss why she or he was wrong to make you work over
time (even if the bugs you were working on were your fault), and then swing
off across the city with you.

Satisfied??

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Alan Balmer]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:48:18 GMT, "Phlip" <ph******@yahoo.com> wrote:

amanda992004 wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc. (But heck, at least we don't cut off the wrong limb like
overworked doctors do...)

Yes, but programmers have the power to kill more than one person at a
time.
When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.

One pseudoscientific way to refer to this situation, popular these days
among technocrats, is that programming is "left-brained" and having a life
is "right brained". That's not accurate - all activities use both physical
sides of your brain - but it works adequately as a parable. Exercising your
right brain allows your left to rest and recharge.

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net

[Victor Bazarov]

Phlip wrote:

Grahamo wrote:

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.
But do they? Are they allowed?

Amanda, I'm stuck here at work, could you please come and get me. My
boss won't let me go home..........

Please AMANDA........come get me!!! I'm on the 25th floor beside the
coffee machine.... QUICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda [..] will now [..] explain to your boss why she or he was wrong [..]

Amanda was wrong? Amanda can be a 'he'? Danger, Will Robinson!
Danger!...

[amanda992004]

> The original poster reported "feeling like a robot", which is a clear sign of sleep deprivation.

My sleep depravation is not from not staying in bed; I just don't sleep
well and hence require longer hours to stay in bed to feel rested.
Being in school, sleep deprivation is a routine as I must finish
homework, project. Feel like a robot and I am wondering thinking that
with "I need to learn this", "I need to lean that", when will I ever
not be like a robot?

Wondering whether I should use my previous degree/education (Chemistry)
and get into teaching (it would be part-time at a college as I am doing
now unless I work at multiple college teaching different courses to get
full time hours which is not appealing to me OR teach high school which
I don't want to do at this point in my life) and have some sort of a
life

or

stick with programming and get into the field. I have become interested
in bioinformatics and talked with someone from the field. Needless to
say, I need to make time to study Molecular Biology (will not go to
Bioinformatics degree program) which does take time though I prefer to
spend time building my programming skills (in scripting - Perl is the
langauge inthat area - or Database (would require high level skills
and I am nowhere near that yet) ).

Currently, I am taking Data structure (using C++). Have taken Java
acouple of years ago. So thinking about spending time on the things I
need to learn makes me feel like I will live have to like a robot.

I ended up posting this in C++ group because I was looking for the C++
question I posted a few days ago. Can't find it but problem is solved.

[Default User]

am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care
of life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.


Brian

[Victor Bazarov]

Default User wrote:

am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

[..]

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.

But it's such fun once in a while, especially for those who have little
life outside of an immediate vicinity of their keyboards, no? :-)

[Phlip]

amanda992004 wrote:

The original poster reported "feeling like a robot",
which is a clear sign of sleep deprivation.
My sleep depravation is not from not staying in bed; I just don't sleep
well and hence require longer hours to stay in bed to feel rested.
Being in school, sleep deprivation is a routine as I must finish
homework, project. Feel like a robot and I am wondering thinking that
with "I need to learn this", "I need to lean that", when will I ever
not be like a robot?

School is different; it's supposed to rot your brain.

In work, you should be accomplishing one small feature of one big program,
over and over again. This is fulfilling and good for you; it won't feel the
same.
Wondering whether I should use my previous degree/education (Chemistry)
and get into teaching (it would be part-time at a college as I am doing
now unless I work at multiple college teaching different courses to get
full time hours which is not appealing to me OR teach high school which
I don't want to do at this point in my life) and have some sort of a
life
Move to a country where they treat teachers as professionals. Move out of
any country that's doing everything it can to rapidly lose its status as a
superpower...
stick with programming and get into the field. I have become interested
in bioinformatics and talked with someone from the field. Needless to
say, I need to make time to study Molecular Biology (will not go to
Bioinformatics degree program) which does take time though I prefer to
spend time building my programming skills (in scripting - Perl is the
langauge inthat area - or Database (would require high level skills
and I am nowhere near that yet) ).
Bioinformatics is booming due to the wide number of different systems it
covers, each bringing its own computational complexities.
Currently, I am taking Data structure (using C++). Have taken Java
acouple of years ago. So thinking about spending time on the things I
need to learn makes me feel like I will live have to like a robot.

I ended up posting this in C++ group because I was looking for the C++
question I posted a few days ago. Can't find it but problem is solved.

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Default User]

Victor Bazarov wrote:

Default User wrote:

am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

[..]

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.

But it's such fun once in a while, especially for those who have
little life outside of an immediate vicinity of their keyboards, no?
:-)

Apparently so.


Brian

[Ed Prochak]

Phlip wrote:

amanda992004 wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc. (But heck, at least we don't cut off the wrong limb like
overworked doctors do...)

tell that to the victims of the Therac 25. Software is used in safety
critical systems (e.g., Airbus fly-by-wire). Some systems can kill.


When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.
yes!

Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

Programming does not mean being glued to a keyboard. I know programmers
that play music, or mountain climb, or have families, or many other
things.

My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), as well as a little programming.

So like the Karate kid, you need Balance!

enjoy,
ed

[Victor Bazarov]

Ed Prochak wrote:

[...]
My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), [...]

That's a blatant lie! Currently you were reading, and replying to,
a newsgroup! It's like I'd say that currently I'm compiling my
project. Not! It's the compiler who's compiling. I am typing this
message. :-)

[Default User]

Victor Bazarov wrote:

Ed Prochak wrote:

[...]
My self: I also sing in church choir, go running, do chores at home
(currently staining my deck), [...]

That's a blatant lie! Currently you were reading, and replying to,
a newsgroup! It's like I'd say that currently I'm compiling my
project. Not! It's the compiler who's compiling. I am typing this
message. :-)

http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert...5016279923.gif

Brian

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote
(in article <CI***************@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>):

How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc.
Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

If you can't work 12 hours a day or more without having problems
then you have a medical condition and should seek attention.
More importantly, you do not need 2 or 3 days off a week to stay
healthy.

You may not get to spend 4 hours every night watching TV and
swilling beer while watching reality TV, or spend all day
saturday watching college athletes run around, then all day
Sunday watching grown men do the same thing. If you can watch
football 8 hours a day, then you can damn sure do real work for
12.

Sure, it's nice to have time off, and it's nice to do things
other than programming. I wouldn't want to work 120 hour weeks
all year long, but doing it for a short term when needed is not
the end of the world. I'll tell you one thing for sure, if I am
on a team project with you, and we have work to do, and you go
home to ride your bicycle while others on the team keep rowing,
you better not come back and expect any respect, or even to keep
your job.

I am not referring to chronically mismanaged businesses that
expect that 52 weeks a year. Professionals do what it takes to
accomplish the goals, just as doctors work triple shifts during
emergencies. Spineless windbags complain about their 'free
time' and go home early when crunch time arrives.
When you work, as you get tired, you cross a point where you are not adding
value but removing value from a program. Go home.
And that point is not at 5:01pm for most people. If it is for
you, then you probably weren't of any value at 8:01am either.
Just stay home and let people that contribute have more office
space.
Programmers should go home on time and have a life.

And now you know why all the work is being outsourced.

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote
(in article <oz****************@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>) :

The occassional inspiration-driven all-nighter is mostly harmless.
Staying up all night every night and sleeping during the day is
mostly harmless too.

The original poster reported "feeling like a robot", which is a clear sign
of sleep deprivation.
No, it isn't. Are you a doctor, or in the psychology field?
"Feeling like a robot" could just as easily be the words of
someone complaining about their work uniform at McDonald's, or
someone working 6 hour shifts on an automobile construction
line.

If you exaggerate less, people might actually take you
seriously.
Sleepy thinkers don't spot these abstractions, and make
the same high-risk edits over and over again to add features.
If you are too stupid to know when you are tired, then maybe so.
I don't need a time card to tell me when I'm too tired to work.
In fact, it's not a constant, no fixed schedule is going to be
able to determine that.
If your boss doesn't mind, that's still lower risk than chronic overtime.
With your system the schedule will also go long, but at least bugs won't
accumulate.

There is no guarantee of that. What is a given, is that if you
and/or your team is habitually late completing projects, you'll
be looking for work soon.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote
(in article <KP***************@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>):

If you were a boss, what reasons could you give to defend enforced overtime?

I have been the boss, and I haven't ever 'enforced' overtime,
partly due to semantics, since I have never wanted 'by the hour'
programmers. I once inherited a couple of contractors, who I
didn't trust and wasn't happy with the work of, so I just let
them sit in their office and do whatever until their timer
expired, as I had no use for them and going through the red tape
to eject them early wasn't worthwhile.

Mainly though, I rewarded good results, period. If you think
that leaving at 4:30 is best for you, and all of your work is
done and you aren't leaving your coworkers out to dry, because
you can get more work done in 6 hours if you go home and sleep
for 12, more power to you. If you find that working 7 days a
week 10 hours a day keeps you 'in the zone' and more productive,
that's good too.

On the other hand, no matter what hours you work, if you are the
source of the problems rather than the solutions, then you're
out of here, and good riddance. If you come into the office
every day whining about 'comp time' and how many personal days,
vacation days, sick leave days, etc. all the time, then I have
no use for you, because you are not a professional employee, you
are a wage slave just there because you have to be to eat. I
always searched for and kept around those that wanted to be
there, because they loved the work, not because they loved the
check and were putting up with the work.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[amanda992004]

Phlip wrote:
<snip>

School is different; it's supposed to rot your brain.
And it has.
In work, you should be accomplishing one small feature of one big program,
over and over again. This is fulfilling and good for you; it won't feel the
same.
It's reassuring to hear that. Thanks for poiting that out.

Wondering whether I should use my previous degree/education (Chemistry)
and get into teaching <snip> and have some sort of a
life
Move to a country where they treat teachers as professionals.

Sadly, I haven't heard any if it exists.
Move out of any country that's doing everything it can to rapidly lose its
status as a superpower... Very sad, isn't it?

<snip>

Bioinformatics is booming due to the wide number of different systems it
covers, each bringing its own computational complexities.
C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.
I heard of Python but didn't realize until now that it's hugh in
Bioinformatics. I will narrow my focus and stick to a plan and get
into Bioinformatics, the plan being scripting languages rather than
Database since to become as to a DB Admin requires a lot of experience
and skills.

I have vaguely heard about Ruby, but not TDD. Google time for me.

I have no intention in becoming a pro in C++ or Java. Just taking
Data Structure that uses C++. I haven't touched Java since I took the
course.

I just realized soemthing: Wanting to get out of Chemical industry
(didn't want to breathe stuff anymore), I decided (in 1998) to get into
Programming with interest in web development. Then with slow job
market, I wasn't hopeful to have a decent job in IT and started thining
about Database as my choice but, after moving to this state, I learned
about Bioinformatics, and it seems that I still have opportunity in IT
world. Still a lot to learn though.

Again, thanks for mentioning Python's role in Bioinformatics.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[amanda992004]

Mainly though, I rewarded good results, period. If you think
that leaving at 4:30 is best for you, and all of your work is >done and you aren't leaving your coworkers out to dry, because
you can get more work done in 6 hours if you go home and sleep
for 12, more power to you.

It would be nice if all bosses are like you as I am the type of person
who fits in that category.

[Alan Balmer]

On 23 Sep 2005 15:54:22 -0700, am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

Phlip wrote:
<snip>

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

I heard of Python but didn't realize until now that it's hugh in
Bioinformatics. I will narrow my focus and stick to a plan and get
into Bioinformatics, the plan being scripting languages rather than
Database since to become as to a DB Admin requires a lot of experience
and skills.

Ah, keep in mind that this is Philip's opinion, and may not be shared
by many. Do some more research before committing a lot of time.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
re************************@att.net

[Phlip]

Randy Howard wrote:

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

I'l go ask permission of my wife to agree with you.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Baxter]

It's attitudes like this that are the reason that programmers are viewed as
socially inept dweebs.

Myself, I've found I solve more problems and write better code if I go home
at the end of eight hours. My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

--
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"Randy Howard" <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote in message
news:00*****************************@news.verizon. net...

If you can't work 12 hours a day or more without having problems
then you have a medical condition and should seek attention.
More importantly, you do not need 2 or 3 days off a week to stay
healthy.

You may not get to spend 4 hours every night watching TV and
swilling beer while watching reality TV, or spend all day
saturday watching college athletes run around, then all day
Sunday watching grown men do the same thing. If you can watch
football 8 hours a day, then you can damn sure do real work for
12.

[Phlip]

C++ and Java suck. Learn TDD and Ruby. You will never look back. And Python
(a competitor to Ruby) is _huge_ in Bioinformatics.

I heard of Python but didn't realize until now that it's hugh in
Bioinformatics. I will narrow my focus and stick to a plan and get
into Bioinformatics, the plan being scripting languages rather than
Database since to become as to a DB Admin requires a lot of experience
and skills.

Alan Balmer wrote:
Ah, keep in mind that this is Philip's opinion, and may not be shared
by many. Do some more research before committing a lot of time.

Ah, yes of course. The original poster should only pursue opinions that are
shared by many.

However, in this case a Google for +bioinformatics +python returns 1.2
_million_ hits. So maybe you should take more care before assuming that
/all/ of the opinions I spout here are not shared...

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote
(in article <W3****************@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>) :

Ah, keep in mind that this is Philip's opinion, and may not be shared
by many. Do some more research before committing a lot of time.

Ah, yes of course. The original poster should only pursue opinions that are
shared by many.

However, in this case a Google for +bioinformatics +python returns 1.2
_million_ hits. So maybe you should take more care before assuming that
/all/ of the opinions I spout here are not shared...

And a google for +bioinformatics +java returns 2.4 _million_
hits.

If you s/java/c you get 10.1 million, but that's probably
cheating, and I didn't bother to check all of them. :-)

Even lowly perl offers up 1.57 million.

So much for using google hit counts to make points. :-)

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Randy Howard]

Phlip wrote
(in article <uv****************@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>) :

Randy Howard wrote:

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

I'l go ask permission of my wife to agree with you.

Well, at least we know where your spine resides. Good luck with
that, as it will no doubt be a continual help throughout your
career to blame your inability to work on your wife. Managers
just love that.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Randy Howard]

Baxter wrote
(in article <11*************@corp.supernews.com>):

It's attitudes like this that are the reason that programmers are viewed as
socially inept dweebs.
Whatever helps you sleep at night, party guy. When it comes
time to get a major project out the door, I'll take the ones
that can get it done over the socialites every time.

Despite the stereotype you seem to wish to reinforce, it's not
really accurate. I've known quite a few socially adept
programmers that understood that there were times (not all the
time) where work was important and that they were being paid an
extremely nice salary to behave professionally. If you're being
paid six figures for being a pro, you don't just plead that your
wife is busting your chops, or you have a party to go to --
Sorry we'll be missing our launch date there boss, but you don't
want me to be a geek, do you sir?
Myself, I've found I solve more problems and write better code if I go home
at the end of eight hours.
Then do it. As long as you don't leave your coworkers hanging
out to dry waiting for you, there's no problem with that, as
I've said already. If on the other hand everybody else is in
the lab at 8:30pm, and the one piece of code that keeps tripping
the analyzer is yours, and you're at home watching Survivor, I
wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

Then he probably isn't cut out for that kind of work schedule
either. Fortunately, there is a lot of middle ground between 8
hours and 24. I know programmers think in boolean terms fairly
often, but let's not pretend those are the only two options
here.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Gerry Quinn]

In article <11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups .com>,
Gr**********@gmail.com says...

Dear amanda,

"Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?
"

I am delighted you ask this question. In fact, not a lot of
(non-programmer) people are aware of the life of a typical software
engineer, so I'll take the time to enlighten you.

Good one!

- Gerry Quinn

[Ian]

Randy Howard wrote:

Phlip wrote
(in article <CI***************@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>):

How many hours do you work?

The myth that programmers can or should work more than 8 hours a day is
tragic, and is responsible for an incredible amount of lost productivity,
bugs, etc.

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week
(and wishing for 32) without losing productivity is socialist
claptrap.

No it isn't. In my last job I was very unpopular with my peers when I
refused to let my staff work overtime. That soon changed when they
realised the staff were more productive rather than less.

It's not the quantity that matters, it's the quality.

If you can't work 12 hours a day or more without having problems
then you have a medical condition and should seek attention.

Or a life outside of work.

Ian

[Phlip]

Ian wrote:

Randy Howard wrote:

Oh bull. The myth that humans can only work 40 hours a week (and wishing
for 32) without losing productivity is socialist claptrap.

No it isn't.

Now now - Randy is obviously just announcing he's the latest member of my
fan club. The urge to contradict me rises when he sees my name in the Sent
column, before even reading what I wrote. I can correctly identify the
original poster has the best bet using Bioinformatics and a scripting
language, but that's still not good enough for him, huh?
Or a life outside of work.

Could be the sore spot for some...

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[blmblm]

In article <y8***************@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
Phlip <ph******@yahoo.com> wrote:

amanda992004 wrote:

The original poster reported "feeling like a robot",
which is a clear sign of sleep deprivation.
My sleep depravation is not from not staying in bed; I just don't sleep
well and hence require longer hours to stay in bed to feel rested.
Being in school, sleep deprivation is a routine as I must finish
homework, project. Feel like a robot and I am wondering thinking that
with "I need to learn this", "I need to lean that", when will I ever
not be like a robot?

School is different; it's supposed to rot your brain.

Only someone deeply cynical about the educational system would say
this!

Those who retain a little idealism would make other claims about
what school is supposed to do. At the college/university level, I
would claim that this includes exposing them to new ideas, improving
their ability to think critically and communicate clearly, teaching
them to learn on their own, and giving them conceptual frameworks on
which to hang technical or other details they will learn later.

Now, whether an actual school achieves any of these aims is another
matter. Some schools probably don't really even try. Some try but
don't succeed, or don't succeed with all students. Some do succeed,
at least with some students. If you're at a school that doesn't try,
or that tries but doesn't succeed with you (and there can be lots of
explanations for why that would happen, many of which are not the
student's fault), then yeah, "rots your brain" isn't too far off
the mark. But I think it's deeply cynical to say that that's what's
*supposed* to happen. :-), sort of.
In work, you should be accomplishing one small feature of one big program,
over and over again. This is fulfilling and good for you; it won't feel the
same.

I'm not sure I agree with everything here, but I agree with what
I think is the overall point: If your assigned tasks don't relate
in any obvious way to any interesting goal, it's a little hard to
feel motivated to do them or to get much sense of accomplishment
out of doing them well. This could happen with school or a job.
If what you're doing *does* contribute in some way to a goal that
feels meaningful, that can make all the difference.

[ snip ]

--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

[Baxter]

"Randy Howard" <ra*********@FOOverizonBAR.net> wrote in message
news:00*****************************@news.verizon. net...

Baxter wrote
(in article <11*************@corp.supernews.com>):
Despite the stereotype you seem to wish to reinforce, it's not
really accurate.
Actually, you're the one perpetuating a stereotype.

My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

Then he probably isn't cut out for that kind of work schedule
either.

This has pretty much been the case with everyone that I worked with that put
in long hours.

It's a myth that you have to work long hours to show dedication.
Employers love it because they think they're getting something for nothing.
Employees are hurt by it because it puts blinders on them.

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[Randy Howard]

Baxter wrote
(in article <11*************@corp.supernews.com>):

Despite the stereotype you seem to wish to reinforce, it's not
really accurate.
Actually, you're the one perpetuating a stereotype.

You're not paying attention then.

My co-worker puts in a late-nighter, but at
noon the next day we're at the same point - I've got as much finished,
working code as he does.

Then he probably isn't cut out for that kind of work schedule
either.

This has pretty much been the case with everyone that I worked with that put
in long hours.

Note that I never said anyone should work all day and all night
as the extreme examples people are raising in this thread.
It's a myth that you have to work long hours to show dedication.

I simply don't believe that 9 or 10 hours fairly regularly, or
even 12 in a pinch is a big deal. There is nothing magical
about "40" in a week.
--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)

[Phlip]

Baxter wrote:

It's a myth that you have to work long hours to show dedication.
Employers love it because they think they're getting something for
nothing.
Employees are hurt by it because it puts blinders on them.

The goal is "energetic work".

Each individual's ability to work energetically varies over time, and
averages over time. The average of the averages among many individuals might
be 40 hours a week, so employers should _modestly_ cap that as a _general_
hedge against burnout.

The other goal is teamwork; being there when your teammates are there. So
even if you could work late, don't. Come in fresh tomorrow, at the same time
as your teammates come.

Heroism is not sustainable.

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.org/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!

[Victor Bazarov]

Randy Howard wrote:

[..]
I simply don't believe that 9 or 10 hours fairly regularly, or
even 12 in a pinch is a big deal. There is nothing magical
about "40" in a week.

Nothing magical, it's simply the law. You can't legally *make* me
work longer. Everybody works more than 8 hours when it's needed,
just like everybody would spend nights next to a sick relative's bed.

You make it sound like working 9 to 10 hours constantly is normal.
It's not. In many organizations I've seen, if you have to stay late
and work longer hours, it often means you aren't cut out to do what
is required in the time alotted, the non-magical 40 hours a week.
Such workers are most likely slacking during the day. That's all.

V

[gds]

am**********@yahoo.com wrote:

Excluding the factors of the brain capability, i.e I am not asking
about this factor, if you are a single, aside from enjoying coding or
debugging, how do you make time to eat properly, i.e healthily w/o
spending big bucks at special healthy food places and also take care of
life's daily chores w/o feeling like a robot. Any time for social
activites with people other than programmers?

Is feeling like a robot a typical description of a programmer's life?

I think it depends on the person and their situation. Some people
prefer to put in a lot of hours. Others don't, but circumstances
(e.g. a disorganized project) force them to. Then there are people
who are fortunate enough to gain the upper hand in their
company/project/whatever, so they can refuse work that would otherwise
cause them to give up their social life.

As it turns out I have dealt with these sorts of issues many times
during my career, and am starting to think that there is a "glass
ceiling" that separates me from not having to give up so much of my
personal life for work.

--gregbo
gds at best dot com

[Baxter]

I've known many companies (and worked for a few) that expected you to put in
long hours (even though you were salaried). Could even be they wanted you
to burn out so that they wouldn't have to pay high salaries and retirement.

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"Victor Bazarov" <v.********@comAcast.net> wrote in message
news:Yb********************@comcast.com...

You make it sound like working 9 to 10 hours constantly is normal.
It's not. In many organizations I've seen, if you have to stay late
and work longer hours, it often means you aren't cut out to do what
is required in the time alotted, the non-magical 40 hours a week.
Such workers are most likely slacking during the day. That's all.

[amanda992004]

Default User wrote:
<snip>

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.

I wasn't going to say anything but decided to say this to you: You are
judgemental and in your trying to act like a professional, you missed
being a human.

[amanda992004]

Default User wrote:
<snip>

Don't feed the trolls, blah blah blah.

I wasn't going to say anything but decided to say this to you: You are
judgemental and in your trying to act like a professional, you missed
being a human.

[amanda992004]

I meant "missed out of being human".