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Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop development?

P: n/a
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my
question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

Thanks for your input,

Jul 23 '05 #1
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16 Replies


P: n/a
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.


What shift is that? The one that Sun keeps telling you about? Be careful
to distinguish between real data and marketing hype. Most of what you
hear about Java is the latter.

--

Pete Becker
Dinkumware, Ltd. (http://www.dinkumware.com)
Jul 23 '05 #2

P: n/a
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my
question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

Thanks for your input,


Ask yourself, how many commercial Java or .NET applications have you
seen so far? How many do you have installed on your computer? How many
Jav or .NET applications do you use on a regular basis?

If I browse my harddisk I have maybe one or two Java programs installed,
none of which I use on a regular basis, because they're for most parts
slow as hell. Hm, no .NET apps at all. The good part of the software I
use is written in C, C++, Python or Object Pascal. In more or less this
order.

Sorry, I can't see the shift, can you?

--
Regards,
Matthias
Jul 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?


I think "Flagship Microsoft" is starting to sink. But... that discussion is
off-topic here. All I'll say is that when Microsoft puts out a crappy
framework like MFC, it's easy for someone to not want to use C++.

By desktop development, I'll assume you mean GUI apps. If you didn't mean
that, you'll have to elaborate.

That being said, check out Qt. It was written in C++ (probably binds to
other languages too but I'm not sure). It's very good. From a *purist C++*
standpoint, it isn't perfect but it's a heck of a lot better than MFC.

I'm not a hardline C++ advocate but C# and Java certainly aren't good enough
to pull me away from it permanently.

There isn't a day that goes by that I cuss, whine, and whimper about C++.
However, I always go back to it because it's capable of everything I need
it to do.
Keith
Jul 23 '05 #4

P: n/a
I have been looking for an application developer position using VisC++
lately and there is still lots of C++ jobs out there but it does seem
that there are many who also would like for us to have C# (Visual C#)
and .Net experience. I unfortunately don't have any of the C# or .NET
stuff yet.

Has anyone actually seen any trends towards employers wanting or
requiring any type of Microsoft Certifications like MCAD or MCSD?
These certifications use the Visual C# and .NET as well as SQL Server.
I have been looking into upgrading my knowledge to include these
certifications but I don't quite know if it is really necessary to
certify? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Catrece

Jul 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my
question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

It looks like you are missing facts. With the advent of VC++ 2005 and
C++/CLI standard, C++ becomes the systems programming language of .NET.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...s/default.aspx

http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter...0/05/2672.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/branbray/archi.../07/51007.aspx

http://www.accu.org/conference/prese..._(keynote).pdf
And a page of mine:

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys/cppcli.htm


This subject has been brought up many times in clc++, over and over
again. Everyone please check groups.google.com before bringing this
subject over and over again.


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
Matthias wrote:
Ask yourself, how many commercial Java or .NET applications have you
seen so far?

Actually, regarding .NET, there are many ones that use it today.
Especially with the ability of C++ to mix managed and unmanaged code, I
think many are extending their existing applications by using the high
level .NET library than using the old ones.

How many do you have installed on your computer? How many
Jav or .NET applications do you use on a regular basis?

If I browse my harddisk I have maybe one or two Java programs installed,
none of which I use on a regular basis, because they're for most parts
slow as hell. Hm, no .NET apps at all. The good part of the software I
use is written in C, C++, Python or Object Pascal. In more or less this
order.

Sorry, I can't see the shift, can you?


WinFX, the API that replaces Win32 in Longhorn era is entirely managed.
More accurately, .NET is the portable part of WinFX across the older
than Longhorn platforms.


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #7

P: n/a
I wasn't asking anything about which is better C++ or C#. I was trying
to find out if it is even necessary to get any type of Certifications
from Microsoft in the programming areas. I have been a C++ Developer
for 10 years and I know it very well. I just haven't spent anytime
looking into the C# or .NET stuff since my work doesn't involve it in
any way. I have been doing contracting for very large companies doing
very complex large database applications where it has to be very fast
and efficient so I know the importance of using C++.

I have not spent anytime of this website since I just found it today,
so sorry for any reiteration that has occurred here. I am not one
that has lots of time right now.

The articles were interesting, and the "There is no language lower than
C++" one in particular had alot of references about C++ programmers
that I identified with totally. Per this article, it seems that
learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use
it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise).

Would you concur?

regards,
Catrece

Jul 23 '05 #8

P: n/a
Catrece Tahtinen wrote:
I wasn't asking anything about which is better C++ or C#.

I think I did not answer to your message.

I was trying
to find out if it is even necessary to get any type of Certifications
from Microsoft in the programming areas. I have been a C++ Developer
for 10 years and I know it very well. I just haven't spent anytime
looking into the C# or .NET stuff since my work doesn't involve it in
any way.

C# is another language anyway. Regarding .NET programming with C++, a
nice book to check is "Visual C++ .NET How To Program" by Deitel.
http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/acad...373774,00.html
About certifications, I think it does not harm to have as many as you can.

I have been doing contracting for very large companies doing
very complex large database applications where it has to be very fast
and efficient so I know the importance of using C++.

I have not spent anytime of this website

Hmm, actually here it is Usenet and you are probably posting via some
web site which I can guess does not present discussion threads very well.
Better find some newsreader that supports NNTP (Outlook Express is one),
and use the Usenet newsgroup server of your ISP to participate in
discussions.
This newsgroup is comp.lang.c++.
A far better email/newsgroups client than Outlook Express is Mozilla
Thunderbird:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird
since I just found it today,
so sorry for any reiteration that has occurred here. I am not one
that has lots of time right now.

The articles were interesting, and the "There is no language lower than
C++" one in particular had alot of references about C++ programmers
that I identified with totally. Per this article, it seems that
learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use
it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise).

C#/CLI (which is its actual name) does not offer anything more than
C++/CLI but in fact it offers less.
I guess the question is the same regarding learning VB .NET if you
already know C++.
Keep in mind that all VC#, VC++, and VB .NET share the same RAD in VS 2003.


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #9

P: n/a

<in*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@c13g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my
question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

Thanks for your input,

Don't know where you get that C# is the flagship. AAMF, more emphasis is
being placed on C++ in Visual Studio 2005 and subsequent VS releases.
C++ more encyclopedic? Have you seen the latest Java API?
Jul 23 '05 #10

P: n/a

"Catrece Tahtinen" <ca******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@l41g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
I have been a C++ Developer
for 10 years and I know it very well.
[...]
Per this article, it seems that
learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use
it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise).


With 10 years C++ experience under your belt, I doubt you'd find it would
take very much time to learn C# at all. Learning the basics of C#, D, and
Java is worthwhile for C++ programmers, even if just for the perspective it
gives.

-Walter
www.digitalmars.com C, C++, D compilers
Jul 23 '05 #11

P: n/a
Walter wrote:
With 10 years C++ experience under your belt, I doubt you'd find it would
take very much time to learn C# at all. Learning the basics of C#, D, and
Java is worthwhile for C++ programmers, even if just for the perspective it
gives.

Well I would recommend to wait at least for the upcoming C#/CLI 2, which
supports run-time generics (supported in C++/CLI with the keyword
generic in the place of the keyword template, but are more restricted
than compile-time templates, and templates are also available for C++
managed code producing 100% verifiable code).
If he/she wants to learn C# after all. What I would find to make more
sense is learning IL assembly:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

CLI assembly language is defined in the freely available CLI standard,
so you can view in the specification how it looks like:
http://www.ecma-international.org/pu...s/Ecma-335.htm
The interesting part is that it is enough high-level and has the concept
of classes and objects.

And by the way, the latest draft of the upcoming C++/CLI standard:

http://www.plumhall.com/C++-CLI%20draft%201.8.pdf


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #12

P: n/a
Yes... I'm top posting.

You know? I was thouroughly a**-f**ked for mentioning a gcc compiler switch
here once by.. who was that clown? Wahler? Walter?

What makes this stuff on-topic?

Thanks,
Keith


Ioannis Vranos wrote:
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the
dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my
question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

It looks like you are missing facts. With the advent of VC++ 2005 and
C++/CLI standard, C++ becomes the systems programming language of .NET.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...s/default.aspx

http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter...0/05/2672.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/branbray/archi.../07/51007.aspx

http://www.accu.org/conference/prese..._(keynote).pdf

And a page of mine:

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys/cppcli.htm


This subject has been brought up many times in clc++, over and over
again. Everyone please check groups.google.com before bringing this
subject over and over again.


Jul 23 '05 #13

P: n/a
Keith P. Boruff wrote:
What makes this stuff on-topic?

It is a comparison of C++ vs some other languages, strictly speaking it
may be off topic. I am not sure though.


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #14

P: n/a
Peter van der Goes wrote:
<in*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@c13g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...

snip
Thanks for your input,


Don't know where you get that C# is the flagship. AAMF, more emphasis is
being placed on C++ in Visual Studio 2005 and subsequent VS releases.
C++ more encyclopedic? Have you seen the latest Java API?

No. And I don't want to. ~shudder~

Adrian Edmonds
Jul 23 '05 #15

P: n/a
Peter van der Goes wrote:
C++ more encyclopedic? Have you seen the latest Java API?


And of course such thing is always happening. This is an interesting
article about silver bullets:
http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/710/lw...up/page_1.html


--
Ioannis Vranos

http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
Jul 23 '05 #16

P: n/a
Most software you purchase for Windows in any store requires the .NET
runtime. Just because your not using new software doesn't mean there
isn't a shift.

Chris

Matthias wrote:
in*************@yahoo.com wrote:
Hello,

I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this
question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that
would be like asking the converted.

Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm
wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development?

Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the
situation as it looks to me.

I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is
that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C
developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing.

Thanks for your input,

Ask yourself, how many commercial Java or .NET applications have you
seen so far? How many do you have installed on your computer? How

many Jav or .NET applications do you use on a regular basis?

If I browse my harddisk I have maybe one or two Java programs installed, none of which I use on a regular basis, because they're for most parts slow as hell. Hm, no .NET apps at all. The good part of the software I use is written in C, C++, Python or Object Pascal. In more or less this order.

Sorry, I can't see the shift, can you?

--
Regards,
Matthias


Jul 23 '05 #17

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