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Boost Workshop at OOPSLA 2004

CALL FOR PAPERS/PARTICIPATION

C++, Boost, and the Future of C++ Libraries
Workshop at OOPSLA
October 24-28, 2004
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
http://tinyurl.com/4n5pf
Submissions

Each participant will be expected to develop a position paper
describing a particular library or category of libraries that is
lacking in the current C++ standard library and Boost. The participant
should explain why the library or libraries would advance the state of
C++ programming. Ideally, the paper should sketch the proposed library
interface and concepts. This will be a unique opportunity to critique
and review library proposals. Alternatively, a participant might
describe the strengths and weaknesses of existing libraries and how
they might be modified to fill the need.

Form of Submissions

Submissions should consist of a 3-10 page paper that gives at least
the motivation for and an informal description of the proposal. This
may be augmented by source or other documentation of the proposed
libraries, if available. Preferred form of submission is a PDF file.

Important Dates

• Submission deadline for early registration: September 10, 2004
• Early Notification of selection: September 15, 2004
• OOPSLA early registration deadline: September 16, 2004
• OOPSLA conference: October 24-28, 2004

Contact committee oo********@crystalclearsoftware.com

Program Committee
Jeff Garland
Nicolai Josuttis
Kevlin Henney
Jeremy Siek

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
Jul 22 '05
205 10393
David Abrahams <da**@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:<ua***********@boost-consulting.com>...
"Pavel Vozenilek" <pa*************@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
"David Abrahams" wrote:
> Compilers that require fewer workarounds
> get ported [to Boost] much more quickly.
Its more function of compiler popularity than its quality.
/Pavel

True. That said, for some compilers there are practically no
workarounds. Porting to those goes very quickly ;-)


I wonder if the ambiguity was intentional:-). Did you mean that there
are compilers for which practically no workarounds are needed? (Porting
to them should go pretty quickly.) Or did you mean those for which no
practically workarounds exist? (Porting to them goes very quickly,
too. Just a line "not supported" in the documentatino.)

--
James Kanze GABI Software http://www.gabi-soft.fr
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]

Jul 22 '05 #201
ka***@gabi-soft.fr writes:
David Abrahams <da**@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:<ua***********@boost-consulting.com>...
"Pavel Vozenilek" <pa*************@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> "David Abrahams" wrote: > > Compilers that require fewer workarounds
> > get ported [to Boost] much more quickly. > Its more function of compiler popularity than its quality.
> /Pavel

True. That said, for some compilers there are practically no
workarounds. Porting to those goes very quickly ;-)


I wonder if the ambiguity was intentional:-). Did you mean that there
are compilers for which practically no workarounds are needed? (Porting
to them should go pretty quickly.)


Yes.
Or did you mean those for which no practically workarounds exist?
(Porting to them goes very quickly, too. Just a line "not
supported" in the documentatino.)


That would be true if it weren't for the fact that people are trying
to port despite the difficulty. Incidentally, the efforts for HP have
gone a lot better than those for Sun recently.

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
Jul 22 '05 #202
Gabriel Dos Reis <gd*@integrable-solutions.net> writes:

|> go****@vandevoorde.com (Daveed Vandevoorde) writes:

|> [...]

|> | (Note that two-phase name lookup predates export by quite a bit.
|> | ADL was the result of a generalization for the sake of export, and
|> | that affected the details of two-phase name lookup when export was
|> | added to the language. However, the gist of two-phase name lookup
|> | was already described in D&E back in 1994.)

|> Thanks for hammering this point again. There have been some myths
|> about two-phase name lookup as a consequence of "export", even from
|> some "old timer" C++ experts.

I'm curious about this, because I've never heard the claim that
two-phased lookup was a consequence of "export". A lot of us missed its
initial introduction, for I really don't know what reasons.

Of course, the real problem is that most compilers don't, or until very
recently didn't implement either. And that while there was a good deal
of discussion concerning export, very little was said about the fact
that their name lookup wasn't conform.

|> I would complement your answer by providing a link to one of the
|> first, publically available mailings, that was already discussing
|> two-phase name lookup:

|> http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG...1992/N0209.pdf

|> That paper has the date "November 1992" and states

|> Most of the background of this paper is derived from a lengthy
|> discussion by the authors in May 1992, and subsequent electronic
|> communication which discussed and reworked the original summary
|> of that meeting.

No one not in the standards committee would have seen the paper, and
those not involved in the extensions group probably wouldn't have read
it. It's hardly a reference for the casual user.

Of course, I would expect anyone actually implementing a compiler to
have seen it. Which sort of makes one wonder -- in Noverber 1992, there
weren't that many implementations which actually supported templates.
That CFront didn't take this paper or the discussions which preceded it
into account is quite understandable, but what is the excuse of the
other implementors.

Because, of course, the biggest single reason we have such a problem
with two phase lookup is that it is different from what we are used to,
and what we have been using for the past eight or ten years.

--
James Kanze
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]

Jul 22 '05 #203
Hyman Rosen <hy*****@mail.com> writes:

|> ka***@gabi-soft.fr wrote:
|> > I don't know how relevant templates at the application level will
|> > be in the future. Today, they aren't used, because of the
|> > dependencies they introduce.

|> That's a pretty categorical claim. I know that it's your experience,
|> but I doubt that it's universal.

And like most categorical claims, it is a blatant simplification. Like
everything else, the real question is one of a price/benefits trade-off.
The problem is that with current template implementations, the price
rapidly becomes very high, as soon as the code is non-trivial.

Consider two extreme cases. You're implementing Microsoft Office --
probably a couple of million lines of code. Do you really think
something like:

int
main()
{
Application< wchar_t > app ;
app.run() ;
}

would be doable, with everything else a template on the character type?
At the other extreme, I've a class which could have been put at the
application level. The only template involved is the constructor, and
all it does is use the two iterators to initialize a local std::vector.
I'd be hard put to say that something like that can't be used.

Somewhere between the two cases is a cut-off. My experience would
suggest that it is very low, quite close to the second case. For
several reasons, in fact, but at least partitially because of the
dependencies that using templates imposes. Such dependencies ARE a
reason for avoiding unnecessary templates. Not the only reason, but in
many cases, an important one.

--
James Kanze
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
Jul 22 '05 #204
David Abrahams <da**@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:<us***********@boost-consulting.com>...
ka***@gabi-soft.fr writes:
Or did you mean those for which no practically workarounds exist?
(Porting to them goes very quickly, too. Just a line "not
supported" in the documentatino.)

That would be true if it weren't for the fact that people are trying
to port despite the difficulty.
I would have imagined that once it was known that the current version of
the compiler didn't work, the efforts would be dropped. Basically: new
version of Boost: no effort, new version of compiler: a lot of effort.

At some point, there's no point in butting your head against a stone
wall. The wall usually wins.
Incidentally, the efforts for HP have gone a lot better than those for
Sun recently.


That stands to reason. As you might guess, the most important compiler
for my right now is Sun CC.

--
James Kanze GABI Software http://www.gabi-soft.fr
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
Jul 22 '05 #205
ka***@gabi-soft.fr writes:
David Abrahams <da**@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:<us***********@boost-consulting.com>...
ka***@gabi-soft.fr writes:
> Or did you mean those for which no practically workarounds exist?
> (Porting to them goes very quickly, too. Just a line "not
> supported" in the documentatino.)
That would be true if it weren't for the fact that people are trying
to port despite the difficulty.


I would have imagined that once it was known that the current version of
the compiler didn't work, the efforts would be dropped. Basically: new
version of Boost: no effort, new version of compiler: a lot of effort.


Every so often, some Sun^H^H^Hpoor user comes along who really wants a
particular library, so they start hacking at the library hard and
sometimes they even come up with the neccessary workarounds. There's
never any effort unless some volunteer cares about the
platform/compiler.
At some point, there's no point in butting your head against a stone
wall. The wall usually wins.


Doesn't stop ambitious people from trying, I guess.
Incidentally, the efforts for HP have gone a lot better than those
for Sun recently.


That stands to reason. As you might guess, the most important
compiler for my right now is Sun CC.


Of course ;-)

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
http://www.boost-consulting.com

[ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
[ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
Jul 22 '05 #206

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