473,325 Members | 2,771 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
Post Job

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Join Bytes to post your question to a community of 473,325 software developers and data experts.

Purchasing The Standard

After having fancied myself a C++ programmer for the last nine years I figured
it was about time that I actually obtain a copy of the standard rather than
relying on other sources that claim to accurately represent the standard. Even
the best intentioned author or newsgroup poster is capable of inaccurately
representing the standard.

I followed the FAQ link to http://www.techstreet.com/ and searched for 14882 as
suggested.

That brought up the following page...

http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/ne...82&searchType=
docno&newSearch=1&sort=rel&submit.x=15&submit.y=16

Aside from the format in which they are distributed, can anyone tell me the
difference between the various items presented? I am confused about which one
would be the most accurate source of information.

What is the difference between ISO/IEC 14882:2003 and INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003
?

The former can only be purchased as a softcover book for $325. The latter can
be purchased as a PDF document for $18. My broke and unemployed self likes the
latter much better, but I want to be aware of what I won't be getting if I
order it.

Furthermore, how long will it be until the current standard is superceded? If
it is only six-months to a year maybe I should wait. And what about all the
TC's and TR's. Are those freely available or must they also be purchased?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Regards,
Brian F. Seaberg

P.S. I am also thinking about getting TCPPLSE. If I could only buy either the
standard document or the Stroustrup book, which would most recommended? On the
one hand the standard is probably pretty dry reading, but it is authoritative
and I want to know the whole truth. On the other hand the Stroustrup book
probably discusses not only the elements of the language but the best practices
associated with those language elements which may be more appropriate for
someone who isn't going to be writing compilers and tools. I want to know the
language very well, but I can't say I want to be a language lawyer. I would
rather know how to effectively use a subset of the language rather than know
the language inside and out but not know how to apply it effectively.


Jul 22 '05
76 3804

JKop wrote:

USA law doesn't apply in Ireland.


Yeah. Read your Copyright Act, Edition 2000. For example,

http://www.efc.ie/publications/legal...e_ireland.html

<quote>

Copyright owners have recently advertised offering rewards for
information which identifies copyright piracy (source - Irish Times).
The targets probably are businesses which use computer software
without a licence. There are draconian fines and terms of
imprisonment for those found guilty of copyright infringement
(Copyright Act, 2000). Officers who tolerate infringement are
personally liable for the misfeasance of their companies.

</quote>

regards,
alexander.
Jul 22 '05 #51

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
No, it simply doesn't say. Hardly support for your position that
violating copyright laws isn't theft.


My,

<quote>

Dowling does not contest that he caused the shipment of goods in
interstate commerce, or that the shipments had sufficient value to
meet the monetary requirement. He argues, instead, that the goods
shipped were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud."

[...]

In contrast, the Government's theory here would make theft,
conversion, or fraud equivalent to wrongful appropriation of
statutorily protected rights in copyright. The copyright owner,
however, holds no ordinary chattel. A copyright, like other
intellectual property, comprises a series of carefully defined
and carefully delimited interests to which the law affords
correspondingly exact protections. "Section 106 of the Copyright
Act confers a bundle of exclusive rights [473 U.S. 207, 217] to
the owner of the copyright," which include the rights "to publish,
copy, and distribute the author's work." Harper & Row, Publishers,
Inc. v. Nation Enterprises, 471 U.S. 539, 546 -547 (1985). See 17
U.S.C. 106. However, "[t]his protection has never accorded the
copyright owner complete control over all possible uses of his
work." Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417,
432 (1984); id., at 462-463 (dissenting opinion). For example,
107 of the Copyright Act "codifies the traditional privilege of
other authors to make `fair use' of an earlier writer's work."
Harper & Row, supra, at 547. Likewise, 115 grants compulsory
licenses in nondramatic musical works. Thus, the property rights
of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the
possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or]
merchandise," for the copyright holder's dominion is subjected to
precisely defined limits.

It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate
with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs
a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a
copyright: "`Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of
the copyright owner,' that is, anyone who trespasses into his
exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted
work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, `is an
infringer of the copyright.

[...]

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to
the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control
over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use.
While one may colloquially link infringement with some general
notion of wrongful [473 U.S. 207, 218] appropriation, infringement
plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than
does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud. As a result, it
fits but awkwardly with the language Congress chose - "stolen,
converted or taken by fraud"

</quote>

regards,
alexander.
Jul 22 '05 #52
Alexander Terekhov wrote:

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
No, it simply doesn't say. Hardly support for your position that
violating copyright laws isn't theft.


My,

<quote>


I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position, but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.

--

Pete Becker
Dinkumware, Ltd. (http://www.dinkumware.com)
Jul 22 '05 #53

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position,
They did. You just need to follow the [embedded] links and read the
stuff to see it.
but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.


http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...2ECF2%40web.de

regards,
alexander.
Jul 22 '05 #54
Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch> wrote in message news:<ma*************************@sicinfo.epfl.ch> ...
I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?

$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
for schools in many poor countries.


I think any software Mats Weber's writes should be available for
free download for his entire life. This should be a condition of
any employment he ever gets.

Charging money for his work makes it out of the reach of many poor
people, whether the country be poor or not.

Then, it's altogether likely nobody wants it anyway.
Socks
Jul 22 '05 #55
tom_usenet wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
wrote:
I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?

$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
for schools in many poor countries.


I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.


I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.
Jul 22 '05 #56
JKop wrote:
Alexander, sharing is caring!
JKop + @ + eircom + . + net

Have you checked the web? The URL that I provided? If you haven't
figured such simple things out yet, perhaps you should move to C#.


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
Jul 22 '05 #57
Alexander Terekhov wrote:
You mean

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca5...i?NoticeID=320

Man, you are famous!
Jul 22 '05 #58
Julie wrote:
tom_usenet wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
wrote:

I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?

$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
for schools in many poor countries.


I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.

I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.

Adobe Reader 6.x is perfect to read the standard, and its search
functionality is very good. I suggest you install it, even if you have
an older version of the complete acrobat (the program that makes the pdfs).


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
Jul 22 '05 #59
JKop wrote:
Pete Becker posted:
JKop wrote:

I'm requesting that some-one supply me with a certain array
of bits. Alternatively I could acquire this array of bits for a
hefty unjustified price elsewhere. The former is more appealing.

Just plain theft.


Let's see. Theft is where someone-one deprives someone-else of a
possession. If I thieve your car, I am depriving you of your car.

If I copy your copy of the C++ Standard, am I depriving you of it?


You're depriving ANSI of their copyright royalties. Real money.
If
not, then that's not good old run-of-the-mill "plain theft". And if
it is theft at all, what label would you give it?

If I call it "Just plain love", is it better?
Nope; it's "just plain theft".

- Pete


-JKop


Jul 22 '05 #60
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:52:43 -0400, Pete Becker wrote:
I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position, but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.


I've been staying out of this, even though (like many people here, I'm
sure) copyright law is a pet peeve of mine, but, really, you keep using
that word; it does not mean what you think it means.

Copyright infringement is a crime. It is the process of violating the
rights over distribution we have chosen to grant the creator or creators
of a work. There are codified definitions and punishments for this crime.
Theft is a crime. It is the process of depriving someone of their
property[0]. There are codified definitions and punishments for this
crime, as well. They are not the same thing, and never have been, PR
campaigns by certain parties to the contrary notwithstanding.

Please find for yourself the legal definitions of these two crimes, and
compare.

All of these words have meanings. Please use the words that actually mean
what you're saying.

[0] Depriving someone of income from the sale or liscence of a work is
also not theft. Not right or just, but not theft, either.

--
Some say the Wired doesn't have political borders like the real world,
but there are far too many nonsense-spouting anarchists or idiots who
think that pranks are a revolution.

Jul 22 '05 #61
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:23:49 GMT, JKop <NU**@NULL.NULL> wrote:
It seems that many people who don't have access to that document
greatly overrate its usefulness. For most people this document is more
a luxury than a necessity. Time and (in your case optionally) money is
usually better spend on a good C++ book.


We've already established that I wouldn't spend money on the document.


Most of us make our money from software, and therefore hate pirates in
the same way that retailers hate shop lifters. Sadly, my news reader
doesn't have a killfile facility.

Tom
--
C++ FAQ: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
Jul 22 '05 #62
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:07:20 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
tom_usenet wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
wrote:
>I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
>is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
>is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?
>
>$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
>for schools in many poor countries.
I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.


I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.


The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.
There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.


Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).

I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).

Tom
--
C++ FAQ: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
Jul 22 '05 #63
Pete C. posted:
You're depriving ANSI of their copyright royalties. Real money.
One can not be deprived of what one does not have.

If I take a dog's food, I'm depriving him of food.

If I refuse to give a dog food, I'm NOT depriving him of food.

Nope; it's "just plain theft".

And you're just a plain fool.
-JKop
Jul 22 '05 #64

Thank you very much.
-JKop
Jul 22 '05 #65
tom_usenet wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:07:20 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
tom_usenet wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
wrote:

>I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
>is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
>is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?
>
>$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
>for schools in many poor countries.

I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.
I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.


The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.


Are you saying that PDF is a great format for the retrieval of information?

I've said that there are far better formats available. I'd consider HTML the
bottom of the barrel, but far superior to PDF.

PDF is fine for what I said: formatting a document for portable (formatted)
printing. I'd be willing to stop there, but feel free to name any other
superior uses of PDF above and beyond this that benefits the *user/consumer* of
the contained information.
There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.


Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).


Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content? Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.
I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).


I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.
Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
restrictive format such as PDF.
Jul 22 '05 #66
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:01:58 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
tom_usenet wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:07:20 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
>tom_usenet wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
>> >is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
>> >is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?
>> >
>> >$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
>> >for schools in many poor countries.
>>
>> I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
>> $18, regardless of where they live.
>
>I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
>online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
>painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
>of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
>document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.
The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.


Are you saying that PDF is a great format for the retrieval of information?


No, but it is ok; I have no trouble quickly finding what I'm looking
for, thanks to the nice contents bookmarks (which many PDFs lack).
I've already mentioned the only two limitations that affect me.
Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).


Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content?


I dare say this comes under "fair use".
Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.
The original intent of what? Making it copy locked?
I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).


I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.


I think copying of the standard is fairly rife as it is. If the format
wasn't traceable to the buyer, I suspect it would be a lot worse.
Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
restrictive format such as PDF.


You've said that, but you haven't yet backed it up. Are you unable to
find what you're looking for? Why? How would another format help? I've
not heard your complaint before from others, which implies that most
are not finding it too much of a problem.

Tom
--
C++ FAQ: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
Jul 22 '05 #67
Julie wrote:
Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content? Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.


I think there should be a special version for Language Lawyers. :-)


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos

## C++ Language Lawyer :-)
Jul 22 '05 #68
Ioannis Vranos wrote:
Julie wrote:
Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content?
Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly
described
why the PDF content is less than usable.



I think there should be a special version for Language Lawyers. :-)


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos

## C++ Language Lawyer :-)



BTW, the term "language lawyers" is used by people who do not like
getting into the details of the language.


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
Jul 22 '05 #69
tom_usenet wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:01:58 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
tom_usenet wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:07:20 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:

>tom_usenet wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:56:58 +0200, Mats Weber <ma***@bluewin.ch>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
>> >is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
>> >is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?
>> >
>> >$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
>> >for schools in many poor countries.
>>
>> I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
>> $18, regardless of where they live.
>
>I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
>online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
>painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
>of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
>document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.


Are you saying that PDF is a great format for the retrieval of information?


No, but it is ok; I have no trouble quickly finding what I'm looking
for, thanks to the nice contents bookmarks (which many PDFs lack).
I've already mentioned the only two limitations that affect me.
Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).


Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content?


I dare say this comes under "fair use".


I highly doubt that -- you are deliberately circumventing the imposed
protection scheme. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say that you are
either violating the copyright license or getting into a very gray area. Now
take into account the disgusting piece of legislation called the DMCA and
similar (pending) legislation, you just lost your case.
Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.


The original intent of what? Making it copy locked?


Presumably the author locked the content for a reason -- to prohibit copying of
the text. You circumvented that, and I'd venture to say, violated your
license. If you have any further questions about this, don't bother asking me
as I'm no expert, just offering my opinion, but go directly to the source.
Contact the committee and ask if what you did is within your license or legal
rights, in their opinion. I'm sure many would be interested in the response.
I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).


I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.


I think copying of the standard is fairly rife as it is. If the format
wasn't traceable to the buyer, I suspect it would be a lot worse.
Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
restrictive format such as PDF.


You've said that, but you haven't yet backed it up. Are you unable to
find what you're looking for? Why? How would another format help? I've
not heard your complaint before from others, which implies that most
are not finding it too much of a problem.


I don't have specifics relating to the standard, as I don't own a PDF copy, nor
have I illegitimately (or otherwise) viewed one. However, I have read many PDF
documents (as most have), and find the use of the PDF format terrible for
information retrieval.

That you haven't heard my complaint before implies absolutely nothing other
than you haven't heard my complaint before.

Like I've been saying, and you have been inadvertently supporting, the PDF
format is *not* suitable for information retrieval with so many other
more-useful formats available.
Jul 22 '05 #70
On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:47:56 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
I dare say this comes under "fair use".
I highly doubt that -- you are deliberately circumventing the imposed
protection scheme. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say that you are
either violating the copyright license or getting into a very gray area. Now
take into account the disgusting piece of legislation called the DMCA and
similar (pending) legislation, you just lost your case.


However, I didn't circumvent the copy protection of the document,
simply the fact that the text copy functionality is disabled in Adobe
Acrobat. I used Ghostscript, where no such functionality restriction
exists. I don't think this comes under circumventing copy protection.
Until someone decides that Ghostscript is illegal under the DCMA, I
think there's no problem and no infringement.
If you have any further questions about this, don't bother asking me
as I'm no expert, just offering my opinion, but go directly to the source.
Contact the committee and ask if what you did is within your license or legal
rights, in their opinion. I'm sure many would be interested in the response.
They removed the copy protection back in 2000 or so (it seems it was a
mistake), so I doubt they'd have anything to say about it.
>> I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
>> they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
>> who is passing it around illegally).
>
>I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.


I think copying of the standard is fairly rife as it is. If the format
wasn't traceable to the buyer, I suspect it would be a lot worse.
>Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
>restrictive format such as PDF.


You've said that, but you haven't yet backed it up. Are you unable to
find what you're looking for? Why? How would another format help? I've
not heard your complaint before from others, which implies that most
are not finding it too much of a problem.


I don't have specifics relating to the standard, as I don't own a PDF copy, nor
have I illegitimately (or otherwise) viewed one.


So, in other words, you don't really know what you're talking about.
You can see an HTML version of the draft here:
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/open/n2356/

(The PDF is superior to that HTML version - the whole document can be
searched rather than just a single chapter, and the contents links are
far finer grained).
However, I have read many PDF
documents (as most have), and find the use of the PDF format terrible for
information retrieval.
Again, in what way do you find it terrible? You're great at making
unsupported assertions - I've noted it in other threads, where
eventually you gracelessly admit you're wrong.
That you haven't heard my complaint before implies absolutely nothing other
than you haven't heard my complaint before.
Given that I regularly read comp.std.c++, it implies that no one else
is bothered. The only complaints I have heard in 4 or 5 years are
about the $18 cost and the fact that the old .PDF was text copy
disabled.
Like I've been saying, and you have been inadvertently supporting, the PDF
format is *not* suitable for information retrieval with so many other
more-useful formats available.


But you still haven't given one concrete fact to support this. Is a
book a terrible format for information retrieval? Why would anyone buy
a textbook? A PDF is just a book with instant contents navigation and
a text search facility...

Tom
--
C++ FAQ: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
Jul 22 '05 #71
tom_usenet wrote:
Again, in what way do you find it terrible? You're great at making
unsupported assertions - I've noted it in other threads, where
eventually you gracelessly admit you're wrong.

With Acrobat Reader 6.x (currently 6.02) the searching abilities are
great and when accompanied with a Bookmark section the whole situation
is excellent.

In earlier versions, the searching functionality was somewhat troubling.


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
Jul 22 '05 #72
tom_usenet wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:47:56 -0700, Julie <ju***@nospam.com> wrote:
I dare say this comes under "fair use".


I highly doubt that -- you are deliberately circumventing the imposed
protection scheme. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say that you are
either violating the copyright license or getting into a very gray area. Now
take into account the disgusting piece of legislation called the DMCA and
similar (pending) legislation, you just lost your case.


However, I didn't circumvent the copy protection of the document,
simply the fact that the text copy functionality is disabled in Adobe
Acrobat. I used Ghostscript, where no such functionality restriction
exists. I don't think this comes under circumventing copy protection.
Until someone decides that Ghostscript is illegal under the DCMA, I
think there's no problem and no infringement.


Wrong way to look at it. Copy machines are not illegal, however certain uses
of them are. Regardless, this sub thread really has disintegrated into purely
a preferential view of the PDF file format.

You appear to be comfortable with it.

I am not comfortable with it for information retrieval purposes.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the use of PDF, merely stating (as I
originally did!) that I wish it were in a more usable format (in my opinion)
other than [or in addition to] PDF.

- end.
Jul 22 '05 #73
In article <40***************@nospam.com>, Julie <ju***@nospam.com>
wrote:
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the use of PDF, merely stating (as I
originally did!) that I wish it were in a more usable format (in my opinion)
other than [or in addition to] PDF.


What format do you have in mind ?
Jul 22 '05 #74
Mats Weber wrote:

In article <40***************@nospam.com>, Julie <ju***@nospam.com>
wrote:
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the use of PDF, merely stating (as I
originally did!) that I wish it were in a more usable format (in my opinion)
other than [or in addition to] PDF.


What format do you have in mind ?


My (personal!) preference would be in Microsoft compiled HTML help format.
Jul 22 '05 #75
Julie wrote:
Mats Weber wrote:
In article <40***************@nospam.com>, Julie <ju***@nospam.com>
wrote:

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the use of PDF, merely stating (as I
originally did!) that I wish it were in a more usable format (in my opinion)
other than [or in addition to] PDF.


What format do you have in mind ?

My (personal!) preference would be in Microsoft compiled HTML help format.

!!!!! That is the most unusable format I have ever seen for books and
standards.


Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
Jul 22 '05 #76

"Ioannis Vranos" <iv*@guesswh.at.grad.com> wrote in message
news:cc***********@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
Julie wrote:
Mats Weber wrote:
In article <40***************@nospam.com>, Julie <ju***@nospam.com>wrote:
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the use of PDF, merely stating (as Ioriginally did!) that I wish it were in a more usable format (in my opinion)other than [or in addition to] PDF.

What format do you have in mind ?

My (personal!) preference would be in Microsoft compiled HTML help

format.

!!!!! That is the most unusable format I have ever seen for books and standards.


She admits it's just her personal preference.

Personally, I'd prefer framed color photographs of braille
inscriptions.

Jonathan
Jul 22 '05 #77

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

7
by: John | last post by:
I think this should be on topic. Many of us here may have considered purchasing Visual Studio.NET on eBay or other web auction sites. However, I would like to issue a warning that there are some...
9
by: William LaMartin | last post by:
Does anyone know when we can actually purchase Visual Studio 2005 Professional or the upgrade and have it shipped immediately? First Microsoft said that it would be released Nov. 17. When Nov...
1
by: Jason Newell | last post by:
All, I'm looking to purchase VS.NET 2005 pro and I'm wondering if there are any legit ways to get it cheaper than the standard $700 or so. I know Microsoft has programs like the Action Pack. ...
13
by: arnuld | last post by:
i see C FAQs are very important part of learning C. whole C FAQs are available as a book (1st edition) in my area at a little cost. is it a good idea to purchase C FAQs book, published in 1996 ?...
0
by: DolphinDB | last post by:
Tired of spending countless mintues downsampling your data? Look no further! In this article, you’ll learn how to efficiently downsample 6.48 billion high-frequency records to 61 million...
1
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe meeting will be on Wednesday 6 Mar 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC) and finishing at about 19:15 (7.15PM). In this month's session, we are pleased to welcome back...
0
by: Vimpel783 | last post by:
Hello! Guys, I found this code on the Internet, but I need to modify it a little. It works well, the problem is this: Data is sent from only one cell, in this case B5, but it is necessary that data...
0
by: ArrayDB | last post by:
The error message I've encountered is; ERROR:root:Error generating model response: exception: access violation writing 0x0000000000005140, which seems to be indicative of an access violation...
1
by: PapaRatzi | last post by:
Hello, I am teaching myself MS Access forms design and Visual Basic. I've created a table to capture a list of Top 30 singles and forms to capture new entries. The final step is a form (unbound)...
1
by: CloudSolutions | last post by:
Introduction: For many beginners and individual users, requiring a credit card and email registration may pose a barrier when starting to use cloud servers. However, some cloud server providers now...
1
by: Defcon1945 | last post by:
I'm trying to learn Python using Pycharm but import shutil doesn't work
0
by: af34tf | last post by:
Hi Guys, I have a domain whose name is BytesLimited.com, and I want to sell it. Does anyone know about platforms that allow me to list my domain in auction for free. Thank you
0
by: Faith0G | last post by:
I am starting a new it consulting business and it's been a while since I setup a new website. Is wordpress still the best web based software for hosting a 5 page website? The webpages will be...

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.