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Editors

P: n/a
Pmb
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

Jul 22 '05 #1
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47 Replies


P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and
I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm
not sure if it was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com).
I'm trying the new version now but would like some advice and
comments on other editors and how you like them.

Thanks

Pmb


If you're willing to pay ~$90, Microsoft VC++ 2003 is excellent.

Some good free ones:
- Crimson Editor
- pcGRASP
- Emacs

- Pete
Jul 22 '05 #2

P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit
right now and I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have
an old edition and I'm not sure if it was made by the
same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on
other editors and how you like them.


VC++ 2003 is one of my favorites. I also like TextPad as a
lightweight editor. Both are Windows-only. SlickEdit is
another editor I like -- it's almost an IDE, though. Lots
of features and cross-platform, but rather costly.
Jul 22 '05 #3

P: n/a
Pmb

"Derek" <us**@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:2h************@uni-berlin.de...
Pmb wrote:
> Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit
> right now and I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have
> an old edition and I'm not sure if it was made by the
> same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
> version now but would like some advice and comments on
> other editors and how you like them.


VC++ 2003 is one of my favorites. I also like TextPad as a
lightweight editor. Both are Windows-only. SlickEdit is
another editor I like -- it's almost an IDE, though. Lots
of features and cross-platform, but rather costly.


TextPad! Ah! That's the one that I was thinking about. Thanks.

Pmb
Jul 22 '05 #4

P: n/a
Hi Pmb,

You asked, " Can someone suggest a good editor ? "

I like Microsoft's Developers Studio.
i.e. The IDE that came with VC++ 6.0 .

But it has a number of short comings.
And I haven't really explored other options.
Jul 22 '05 #5

P: n/a

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:NI********************@comcast.com...
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

TextPad (http://www.textpad.com). Awesome editor.
Jul 22 '05 #6

P: n/a
Jeff Relf wrote:
You asked, " Can someone suggest a good editor ? "

I like Microsoft's Developers Studio.
i.e. The IDE that came with VC++ 6.0 .

But it has a number of short comings.
And I haven't really explored other options.


VC7 is much better than VC6, both as a compiler and
an editor/IDE. I wouldn't suggest VC6 to anyone now
that 7 is available.
Jul 22 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Xenos" <do**********@spamhate.com> wrote in message
news:c8*********@cui1.lmms.lmco.com...

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:NI********************@comcast.com...
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and

how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

TextPad (http://www.textpad.com). Awesome editor.


Another good one (almost identical to TextPad) is EditPlus2. If you like
one, you'll like the other.
--
Gary
Jul 22 '05 #8

P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb


GVim http://www.gvim.org
Jul 22 '05 #9

P: n/a
Whoops! That's

GVim http://www.vim.org (not gvim.org!)
Jul 22 '05 #10

P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how
you like them.


Well, that depends on what you'd like to do.

Let's see:

Would you like syntax coloring? How about automatic indentation? What
about built in CVS, RCS, rmail and gnu news? How about a calender? How
about the ability to look at binary files? or edit them? How about the
ability to write your own components to extend the editor? How about 5
or 6 different ways to "style" your brackets and indentation for c, c++
or java. How about python, perl, ruby, html, xml, xsl, c++ and c file
recognition. How about an interface with ANT or the JDK or gcc or make?
How about split screens, n ways. How about incredible keyboard control -
no mouse necessary - copy paste, end of line, delete line, replace every
occurence ... find, reverse-find, remove spaces, generate ChangeLogs ...
all without leaving the keyboard? How about online support groups,
multiple platform support including OSX. How about free? Or more?

Emacs/XEmacs.

Ah ... but maybe to steep of a learning curve ...

Then vi.

Ah ... maybe a bit more "cua" (win32ish)? TextPad might just be the one
you're looking for.

Sorry, I may sound a bit biased :)

-Luther
Jul 22 '05 #11

P: n/a

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:NI********************@comcast.com...
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how you like them.

Thanks

Pmb


I've just come across a freeware utility called PSPad (www.pspad.com) seems
to have many similar features to Textpad such as block indenting, colour
syntax highlighting, brace pair highlighting, etc.

Worth a look as a freebie, IMO.

Steve
Jul 22 '05 #12

P: n/a
Hi Derek,

You mentioned,
" VC7 is much better than VC6,
both as a compiler and an editor/IDE. "

What new features does it have ?

I wish the debugger went from statement to statement,
rather than from line to line.
And some views, ( e.g. dumps and disassembly ),
don't let me control the size or color of the fonts.
Jul 22 '05 #13

P: n/a

"Jeff Relf" <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message
news:12****************@x.Jeff.Relf...
Hi Derek,

You mentioned,
" VC7 is much better than VC6,
both as a compiler and an editor/IDE. "

What new features does it have ?


It has 'dynamic help'. Who could possibly not think that is the most
important advance in online help since HTML was invented. Consistently
delivering the precise information you need almost instantaneously. It won't
be long before it can write your code for you!!

So useful is this feature that I can only agree with Microsoft's decision
not to have any reasonable way to turn it off.

john
Jul 22 '05 #14

P: n/a
Pmb

"Steve" <st*******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:EI**************@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:NI********************@comcast.com...
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb


I've just come across a freeware utility called PSPad (www.pspad.com)

seems to have many similar features to Textpad such as block indenting, colour
syntax highlighting, brace pair highlighting, etc.

Worth a look as a freebie, IMO.

Steve


Thanks Steve. I'll check it out.

Pmb
Jul 22 '05 #15

P: n/a
> You mentioned,
" VC7 is much better than VC6,
both as a compiler and an editor/IDE. "

What new features does it have ?

I wish the debugger went from statement to statement,
rather than from line to line.
And some views, (e.g. dumps and disassembly),
don't let me control the size or color of the fonts.


I'm new to VC7 (Visual Studio .NET 2003) so I'm
probably not the best person to ask. My main
reason for the upgrade was for the compiler, not
the IDE. VC7 complies with the standard very
well, whereas VC6, well, falls short. Of course
you can get the gory details from Microsoft:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/productinfo/

And here are some differences between 6 and 7:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/pr...upgrade60.aspx

I'm at work where I use 6, so I can't tell you if
fonts can be changed in all views, but maybe some-
one with 7 on their desktop can chime in.

Jul 22 '05 #16

P: n/a
Derek <us**@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<2h************@uni-berlin.de>...
Jeff Relf wrote:
You asked, " Can someone suggest a good editor ? "

I like Microsoft's Developers Studio.
i.e. The IDE that came with VC++ 6.0 .

But it has a number of short comings.
And I haven't really explored other options.


VC7 is much better than VC6, both as a compiler and
an editor/IDE. I wouldn't suggest VC6 to anyone now
that 7 is available.


Your statement makes me suspect you've never actually used EITHER of
them.

I see no room for question that VS 7 is dramatically _worse_ than 6.
As a pure editor, they've broken a number of the most fundamental
things (e.g. tagged regular expressions no longer work at all).
Worse, they've rendered many things so difficult that it's just not
worth the trouble. Just for example, consider a scenario that arised
right here on the newsgroups quite regularly: somebody has posted some
code, and I decide to run it through the compiler.

In both cases, I start by copying their code. With VS 6, I click one
button to create a new file, another to save it, and type in a file
name. After than I merely click the "compile" button and then select
"yes" when it asks me if I want to create a default project so it can
be compiled.

With VS 7, there IS no "new file" button for me to click -- I have to
select "File" then "New" and then "File...", and that brings up a
dialog box. In that dialog I have to select "Visual C++" from a list
on the left, and then "C++ Source file" in the box on the right. Now
I (finally!) have a blank file so I can paste in the source code.

Now I want to compile it -- but the "compile" button is greyed out --
I have to make it part of a project before it can be compiled, so I go
back to the beginning and select "New" and "File" and "Project...".
That brings up a dialog again, and I select "Visual C++ Projects" in
the list on the left, and "Win32 console application" from the box on
the right. That brings up (yet another) dialog box in which I have to
select "Project options" on the left, and then click "empty project"
on the right. After that, I select "Project" and then "Add existing
item..." so I can get a dialog that lets me select the file I created
before, and lo and behold, if I've only carried out the previous 50
steps correctly, it _might_ actually let me try to compile the code.

Keep in mind that this is just the set of steps to do something
ridiculously simple! This is something that took a half dozen mouse
clicks in VS 6. Somebody who'd programmed on, e.g. Linux or Sun boxes
previously could independently figure out the entire process in under
10 minutes. With VS 7, it's a whole different story -- I've used
Windows since version 1.0, and MS programming "environments" as old as
ME and PWB. Even with that base of knowledge, it took me close to a
week just to figure out how to get this damnable piece of garbage to
let me compile code of my choice. Even after all that, carrying out
this task that should be utterly trivial is so complex that I needed
to have the environment open for reference while I wrote this just to
be sure I got the sequence of steps reasonably close to correct.
Despite that, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if I've left out a
step or two, meaning even this simple task is even more complex than
I've portrayed it -- it's sufficiently complex that I gave up on it
quite quickly, and on the (now fairly unusual) occassion that I try to
do it, I usually have to make at least two attempts at things before I
get it to work.

Now, considering that it takes all that to do something that used to
be utterly trivial, I leave it to the imagination of those looking on
to figure out how difficult VS7 makes it to actually do something
moderately complex -- but I'll warn them that their estimates are
almost wrong! Everybody I've seen who's taken guesses at what it
takes to do things in VS 7 has been mistaken, and in every case the
job has really been slower, more difficult and more compmlex than
anybody has guessed.
--
Later,
Jerry.

The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
Jul 22 '05 #17

P: n/a
Hi Derek,

Re: MSDev VC++ 6 vs. 7, and:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/pr...upgrade60.aspx

I read that, but nothing of interest jumped out at me.

Thanks for the link anyways, that was interesting.
Jul 22 '05 #18

P: n/a
Hi John Harrison,

You mentioned something called, " dynamic help " in VC7.

From what I Googled, DH sounds like something I don't want.
I'm glad I didn't upgrade to MS Dev VC++ 7 ( .NET ).

I found this about how to get rid of DH:
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl

Close the DH tool window
and then setting this registry value from NO to YES:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\VisualStudio\ 7.1\Dynamic Help]
"Never Show DH on F1"="YES"

' We showed Dynamic Help to help you
choose one of the alternate possible F1 topics
[ " F1 Disambiguation " ]
in case we guessed wrong which " MessageBox "
you wanted help on.
That said, it's clear that some users
don't want Dynamic Help to stick around --
it was our oversight that
we didn't take that case into account.
My apologies for this. '
Jul 22 '05 #19

P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

IMHO the best editor is
SciTE(http://scintilla.sourceforge.net/SciTE.html). It supports syntax
highlighting for a plethora of languages, and code folding, brace
matching, indentation guides, LUA scripting and much more. And it Free
Software.
Jul 22 '05 #20

P: n/a
Robin Eidissen wrote:
Pmb wrote:
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm
not
that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it
was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new
version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors
and how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

IMHO the best editor is
SciTE(http://scintilla.sourceforge.net/SciTE.html). It supports syntax
highlighting for a plethora of languages, and code folding, brace
matching, indentation guides, LUA scripting and much more. And it Free
Software.

Comes with an installer and some nice extra polish(better default
settings) in this version:
http://gisdeveloper.tripod.com/scite.html
Jul 22 '05 #21

P: n/a
Hi Jerry Coffin,

Ho-o-o-o-ollly crap,

Thanks for that VC7 story:
news:b2*************************@posting.google.co m

Such horror. Boy am I glad I didn't upgrade to .NET .

Before you told me that story,
I didn't upgrade simply because I figured
the next upgrade would be a waste of money
just like the VC 5 to 6 was.

And because I was worried about all the .NET bullshit.

Thanks for confirming my fears.
Jul 22 '05 #22

P: n/a
I hope you aren't using the VC6 compiler.. Perhaps you can bend the
Visual C++ 2003 Toolkit to work with the VC6 IDE, because the new
compiler is incredibly much better.
Jul 22 '05 #23

P: n/a
> > VC7 is much better than VC6, both as a compiler and an
editor/IDE. I wouldn't suggest VC6 to anyone now that
7 is available.


Your statement makes me suspect you've never actually
used EITHER of them.


That's a bit harsh given that one's opinion of an IDE is
largely a matter of purely subjective personal preference.

I have already stated that I am new to VC7 and that my
reasons for upgrading were primarily motivated by the
compiler, not the IDE. I'm not picky about editors.
Sometimes I use SlickEdit. Other times I use TextPad. And
sometimes I good old vi does the trick.

A few extra steps to perform some simple actions is
not a big deal when I consider that I gain a much more
standard-compliant compiler, a better debugger, and some
nice IDE features like tabbed autohide docking windows.

I sympathize with your very specific example, but if I had
a code snippet to compile, I would just use the command
line and not bother with a project in VC6 or 7.

Ultimately it's a matter of preference. Like all things
Microsoft, you either love 'em or hate 'em. I happen to
think VC7 is pretty good.
Jul 22 '05 #24

P: n/a
Hi Robin Eidissen,

Re: VC6 vs. 7 .

You commented,
" the new compiler is incredibly much better. "

Hmm ... Better at what ? Standards ? Optimizations ?

I might not need the same features as you.
Jul 22 '05 #25

P: n/a
Jeff Relf wrote:
Hi Robin Eidissen,

Re: VC6 vs. 7 .

You commented,
" the new compiler is incredibly much better. "

Hmm ... Better at what ? Standards ? Optimizations ?

I might not need the same features as you.


Well you have a point there, but it's definately better at both.
Jul 22 '05 #26

P: n/a
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:57:23 +0200, Robin Eidissen
<ro****@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:
I hope you aren't using the VC6 compiler.. Perhaps you can bend the
Visual C++ 2003 Toolkit to work with the VC6 IDE, because the new
compiler is incredibly much better.


No bending needed. Just change some options to point to the new
compiler, includes, and libs.

Works great, lasts a long time.
Jul 22 '05 #27

P: n/a
Frederic Banaszak wrote:
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:57:23 +0200, Robin Eidissen
<ro****@stud.ntnu.no> wrote:

I hope you aren't using the VC6 compiler.. Perhaps you can bend the
Visual C++ 2003 Toolkit to work with the VC6 IDE, because the new
compiler is incredibly much better.

No bending needed. Just change some options to point to the new
compiler, includes, and libs.

Works great, lasts a long time.

Is there anywhere one can get the dynamically linked multithreaded
runtime? It doesn't come with the toolkit.
Jul 22 '05 #28

P: n/a
Hi Derek,

You said VC7 has, " a better debugger ".

What do you think is better about it ?

Jul 22 '05 #29

P: n/a
Xenos wrote:

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now
and I'm not that happy with it


TextPad (http://www.textpad.com). Awesome editor.


For a real Windows programmer's editor take a look at Zeus :)

http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html

Some of the Zeus programming features include:

+ Code completion and intellisensing
+ Integrated class browser
+ Project/workspace management
+ Fully configurable syntax highlighting
+ Seamless FTP editing
+ Integrated version control using the Microsoft Source Code
Control (SCC) interface, including CVS integration.
+ Quick Help context sensitive help engine

Jussi Jumppanen
http://www.zeusedit.com
Jul 22 '05 #30

P: n/a

"Jeff Relf" <Me@Privacy.NET> wrote in message
news:16***************@x.Jeff.Relf...
Hi John Harrison,

You mentioned something called, " dynamic help " in VC7.

From what I Googled, DH sounds like something I don't want.
I'm glad I didn't upgrade to MS Dev VC++ 7 ( .NET ).

I found this about how to get rid of DH:
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl

Close the DH tool window
and then setting this registry value from NO to YES:
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\VisualStudio\ 7.1\Dynamic Help]
"Never Show DH on F1"="YES"

I am very, very grateful.
' We showed Dynamic Help to help you
choose one of the alternate possible F1 topics
[ " F1 Disambiguation " ]
in case we guessed wrong which " MessageBox "
you wanted help on.
That said, it's clear that some users
don't want Dynamic Help to stick around --
it was our oversight that
we didn't take that case into account.
My apologies for this. '


Ha, ha!!

john
Jul 22 '05 #31

P: n/a
> > TextPad (http://www.textpad.com). Awesome editor.

Another good one (almost identical to TextPad) is EditPlus2. If you like
one, you'll like the other.

Also see EditPad. I've had 2000+ html files open at once for editing at the
same time(global find-and-replace). There are free and paid versions, but I
use the "lite" free one.

http://www.editpadlite.com/

Frank

Jul 22 '05 #32

P: n/a
Hi John Harrison,

Re: How to Turn off VC7's dynamic help.

You commented to me, " I am very, very grateful. "

Wow, I actually did some good on Usenet ?

I think that is a first for me.
Jul 22 '05 #33

P: n/a
Jeff Relf wrote:
You said VC7 has, " a better debugger ".

What do you think is better about it ?


A big plus for me is that I can debug multiple
processes across multiple machines at the same
time.

I also like that I can step into a specific
function to avoid ctors and mundane code like
overloaded * and -> operators in smart ptrs.

Not having to specify additional DLLs to set
breakpoints is not too shabby.

Minidumps also sound interesting, though I
haven't played with them much.
Jul 22 '05 #34

P: n/a

I heard all your whining, and still like VS .NET 2003 much better than VC6.

For the simple task of copying and pasting, then running the compiler,
just use emacs. Visual Studio is aimed at large scale projects, not
test scripts.

I feel the UI is more intuitive, there is better help, and many other
minor improvements.

In any case, it is not "much WORSE" than VC6.

Jorge L.
Jul 22 '05 #35

P: n/a
Pmb

"Xenos" <do**********@spamhate.com> wrote in message
news:c8*********@cui1.lmms.lmco.com...

"Pmb" <so*****@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:NI********************@comcast.com...
Can someone suggest a good editor? I'm using WinEdit right now and I'm not that happy with it (I seem to have an old edition and I'm not sure if it was made by the same organization at www.winedit.com). I'm trying the new version now but would like some advice and comments on other editors and

how
you like them.

Thanks

Pmb

TextPad (http://www.textpad.com). Awesome editor.


How do I do a build with TextPad? It seems like there should be a menu
selection of either "Build" or "Make" under the "Tools" menu but there
isn't.

Pmb
Jul 22 '05 #36

P: n/a
Pmb wrote:
How do I do a build with TextPad? It seems likethere
should be a menu selection of either "Build" or "Make"
under the "Tools" menu but there isn't.


You have to create one. Configure->Preferences->Tools.
Jul 22 '05 #37

P: n/a
Jorge Rivera <jo*****@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:<Kd*****************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
I heard all your whining, and still like VS .NET 2003 much better than VC6.
I gave a specific, detailed recitation of FACTS. You've replied by
talking about what you like and how you feel, and then have the nerve
to accuse me of "whining"?

I've simply pointed out that it's a pile of feces. You can claim you
like the smell of feces all you want, but that won't change it into a
boquet of roses.
For the simple task of copying and pasting, then running the compiler,
just use emacs.
Suggesting a different environment for common scenarios shows that
even you realize how bad it's design is, even if you're not willing to
admit it.
Visual Studio is aimed at large scale projects, not
test scripts.
This is pure nonsense. First of all, adding 5 extra steps to the
simple task of creating a file does not improve management of large
projects. Second, a large project still involves all the "small"
tasks involved in a small project. For example, you might create a
hundred or more files intead of a half dozen -- but you stil have to
create files, and that task is roughly 5 times more difficult in VS 7
than in anything that's at all well designed.

Now, it's true that large projects demand features that smaller
projects don't. What's also true is that VS 7 is missing most of
those features. Just for one obvious example, when you're working
with a large project, it's often useful to be able to point at an
entire directory and do (for example) a search and replace on all the
files in the directory. In a case like this, you're likely to want a
tagged regular expression in your search and replace.

Now, if you look at (for one example) MS's no ancient and creaky PWB,
you'll find that it supports this directly. If you look at VS 6,
you'll find that it doesn't support it quite as well -- it allows you
to do a search across a directory, but replacements can only be done
in open files.

If you look at VS 7, you'll find that tagged regular expressions no
longer work, so for all practical purposes, you can no longer do it at
all.

To make a long story short, it's true that there are differences
between managing small projects and large ones, but it's also true
that large projects are exactly where VS 7's deficiencies become the
most insufferable.
I feel the UI is more intuitive, there is better help, and many other
minor improvements.
Here's the difference between us: I gave a specific, detailed
reciation of FACTS. You reply by talking about how you "feel".
In any case, it is not "much WORSE" than VC6.


Yes, it really is. It does an exceptionally poor job of supporting
many (MOST, truth be told) of the things that are needed on a regular
basis. Worse, most of its problems are entirely gratuitous. There
are some design decisions that have to be made about sizes of projects
to be supported, and it's true that some of the things that contribute
to manageability of large projects can seem clumsy on smaller ones.

Unfortunately, none of these signifies in the case of VS 7: its
biggest shortcomings are simply a result of a design that's really and
truly bad. The example I've already cited is typical: creating a file
in five steps won't be more efficient than doing it in one step, even
if you repeat the process a thousand times.

Now, that's not to say (and I've never said) that every idea in VS 7
was a bad one -- it has a few good ideas, and a few bugs have been
fixed. Nonetheless, the overall difference is clearly negative, and
drastically so. It's also very specifically talking about the
environment, not the compiler -- the compiler is a totally separate
question.

--
Later,
Jerry.

The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
Jul 22 '05 #38

P: n/a
Derek <us**@nospam.org> wrote in message news:<2h************@uni-berlin.de>...
VC7 is much better than VC6, both as a compiler and an
> > editor/IDE. I wouldn't suggest VC6 to anyone now that
> > 7 is available. >
> Your statement makes me suspect you've never actually
> used EITHER of them.


That's a bit harsh given that one's opinion of an IDE is
largely a matter of purely subjective personal preference.


What I recited was not subject, nor was it personal preference -- it
was FACTS about what it took to carry out one simple operation.

Opinions fill in where facts aren't available -- but in this case,
objective facts ARE available, and they show VS 7 to be inferior in
nearly every possible respect.
I have already stated that I am new to VC7 and that my
reasons for upgrading were primarily motivated by the
compiler, not the IDE.
The compiler IS drastically improved -- but if you look back at the
subject line, you'll realize that it's utterly irrelevant to this
discussion, which is about editors. Since that was the subject at
hand, I confined my comments to the editor, not the compiler.

As far as compilers go, it's true that MS has improved it dramatically
-- but it's NOT true that you need to switch editors to use an
improved compiler. Just for example, Intel's C++ compiler quite
clearly conforms even more closely than the current MS compiler, and
it still works quite nicely with VS 6.

[ ... ]
A few extra steps to perform some simple actions is
not a big deal when I consider that I gain a much more
standard-compliant compiler, a better debugger, and some
nice IDE features like tabbed autohide docking windows.
The editor has not gained you a better compiler. The editor has not
gained you a better debugger. The editor HAS made many (most, truth
be told) actions necessary on the order of three to fives times as
difficult. In simple terms, that's a BAD editor.

It's true that it has tabbed docking windows, and they are largely a
matter of taste -- but IMO, even at very best they're insufficient to
make up for the fact that editing with VS 7 is substantially more
difficult than with nearly any other editor on the planet.
I sympathize with your very specific example, but if I had
a code snippet to compile, I would just use the command
line and not bother with a project in VC6 or 7.
You are, of course, welcome to do things as you wish. My opinion is
that if the IDE was well designed, there would be no reason to use a
command line instead. I'm the first to admit that VC 6 is less than
perfect in this regard, but that doesn't change the fact that VS 7 is
drastically worse.

I'd also note that while I cited the facts with regard to one specific
scenario, they apply to other scenarios as well -- the fact is that
creating files is not exactly a rare operation, and VS 7 makes it
something like 5 times more difficult than any other editor I can
think of.
Ultimately it's a matter of preference. Like all things
Microsoft, you either love 'em or hate 'em. I happen to
think VC7 is pretty good.


I agree that VC 7 (the compiler) is quite good. The editor is a
different story though -- it's a mess, and its problems do not
contribute anything positive to any use under any circumstances.

--
Later,
Jerry.

The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
Jul 22 '05 #39

P: n/a
> > > Your statement makes me suspect you've never actually
used EITHER of them.
That's a bit harsh given that one's opinion of an IDE
is largely a matter of purely subjective personal
preference.

What I recited was not subject, nor was it personal
preference -- it was FACTS about what it took to carry
out one simple operation.


I don't dispute that some things in VC7 are harder than
they were in VC6. But the importance of these "facts" is
subjective. It clearly makes you angry to have to click
extra buttons, while I on the other hand could not care
less. Most of my time is spent writing and debugging code,
not adding files or creating projects. A few extra clicks
now and then just don't bother me.
Opinions fill in where facts aren't available -- but in
this case, objective facts ARE available, and they show
VS 7 to be inferior in nearly every possible respect.
"Every possible respect"? If you think that's a fact you
must live in a very subjective universe.
The compiler IS drastically improved -- but if you look
back at the subject line, you'll realize that it's
utterly irrelevant to this discussion, which is about
editors. Since that was the subject at hand, I confined
my comments to the editor, not the compiler.
Fair enough.
As far as compilers go...
So much for taking your own advice.
A few extra steps to perform some simple actions is
not a big deal when I consider that I gain a much more
standard-compliant compiler, a better debugger, and
some nice IDE features like tabbed autohide docking
windows.


The editor has not gained you a better compiler. The
editor has not gained you a better debugger. The editor
HAS made many (most, truth be told) actions necessary
on the order of three to fives times as difficult. In
simple terms, that's a BAD editor.


Then don't use it.
You are, of course, welcome to do things as you wish.
My opinion is that if the IDE was well designed, there
would be no reason to use a command line instead. I'm
the first to admit that VC 6 is less than perfect in this
regard, but that doesn't change the fact that VS 7 is
drastically worse.
Then don't use it.
I'd also note that while I cited the facts with regard to
one specific scenario, they apply to other scenarios as
well -- the fact is that creating files is not exactly a
rare operation, and VS 7 makes it something like 5 times
more difficult than any other editor I can think of.
Then don't use it.
I agree that VC 7 (the compiler) is quite good. The
editor is a different story though -- it's a mess, and
its problems do not contribute anything positive to any
use under any circumstances.


Then don't use it.
Jul 22 '05 #40

P: n/a
Frank Looper <mapster(AT)charter(DOT)net> wrote:
Also see EditPad. I've had 2000+ html files open at once for editing at the
same time(global find-and-replace). There are free and paid versions, but I
use the "lite" free one.

http://www.editpadlite.com/


Free for NON-COMMERCIAL use...
Jul 22 '05 #41

P: n/a
Jeff Relf wrote:
Hi Pmb,

You asked, " Can someone suggest a good editor ? "

http://www.xemacs.org/
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs.html

I don't do Windoze, but back in ancient times when I was forced to, I found
this rather handy:
http://www.textpad.com/
--
STH
Hatton's Law: "There is only One inviolable Law"
KDevelop: http://www.kdevelop.org SuSE: http://www.suse.com
Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org
Jul 22 '05 #42

P: n/a
Hi Steven T. Hatton,

Back when I had to use emacs, I totally loathed it.

I couldn't even use it without a cheat-sheet in front of me.

It's a monster. Talk about bloatware.

I'm in the process of writing my own editor now,
( but not for any IDE ).
That's the best way to go,
in my extreeeeeemly humble opinion.

I noticed your headers, You're using SpeakEasy.NET ?

They're based in Seattle, where I am ( U-district ).

Are you in Seattle too ?
Jul 22 '05 #43

P: n/a
Jerry,

I apologize for offending you. It was unintentional...
I do have some comments on your post.

Jerry Coffin wrote:
I gave a specific, detailed recitation of FACTS. Read your post. You mentioned regular expressions, and you provided
"FACTS" on how you got around to compile a single file. Yes, your post
had many words, and it told its story quite well...
talking about what you like and how you feel, and then have the nerve
to accuse me of "whining"? Yes :)
I've simply pointed out that it's a pile of feces. You can claim you
like the smell of feces all you want, but that won't change it into a
boquet of roses.
Bad example. Your two examples don't change the quality of the IDE, it
just explains why you don't like the direction MS took. You can't just
claim that your examples qualify VS7 as feces.
Suggesting a different environment for common scenarios shows that
even you realize how bad it's design is, even if you're not willing to
admit it.
Bad designed it maybe, but in my opinion, it is still better designed
than its progenitor.

This is pure nonsense. First of all, adding 5 extra steps to the
simple task of creating a file does not improve management of large
projects. Second, a large project still involves all the "small"
tasks involved in a small project. For example, you might create a
hundred or more files intead of a half dozen -- but you stil have to
create files, and that task is roughly 5 times more difficult in VS 7
than in anything that's at all well designed.

Not true. Right click on the solution explorer, Create new item, choose
whatever you want to add. That is not too disimilar than what VS6 offers.
Now, it's true that large projects demand features that smaller
projects don't. What's also true is that VS 7 is missing most of
those features. Just for one obvious example, when you're working
with a large project, it's often useful to be able to point at an
entire directory and do (for example) a search and replace on all the
files in the directory. In a case like this, you're likely to want a
tagged regular expression in your search and replace.
Again, reverting to your second complaint, regular expressions. Bring
more "FACTS", stop rehashing the old ones.
Here's the difference between us: I gave a specific, detailed
reciation of FACTS. You reply by talking about how you "feel".

No you didn't. I go by how I feel based on two things. How comfortable
I feel working in the environment, and how productive does ot make my
day. I have found myself doind things more efficiently in this version
of VS studio. Can't pintpoint why, because in most instances, the
process hasn't changed as much from one version to the next. However,
my time to produce things has been drastically reduced.
One specific feature I like in the editor, which directly relates to the
original post, is that you can collapse blocks of code. This feature
has been in Kate for a while now, and is very welcome here.

JLR
Jul 22 '05 #44

P: n/a
Hi Jorge Rivera,

You mentioned, " Kate ", What is that ? A good IDE ?

Jul 22 '05 #45

P: n/a
Jeff Relf wrote:
Hi Jorge Rivera,

You mentioned, " Kate ", What is that ? A good IDE ?

http://kate.kde.org/
--
STH
Hatton's Law: "There is only One inviolable Law"
KDevelop: http://www.kdevelop.org SuSE: http://www.suse.com
Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org
Jul 22 '05 #46

P: n/a
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Jeff Relf wrote:

Hi Jorge Rivera,

You mentioned, " Kate ", What is that ? A good IDE ?


http://kate.kde.org/


To follow this up.

Kate is a text editor in KDE. Kate has been used by some IDE providers
(Kdevelop and Anjuta pop in my mind). I think this is a great editor
for programmers, although its true power is better exploited by the IDEs
than on its own (or maybe I don't know how to configure it right...).

JLR
Jul 22 '05 #47

P: n/a
Hi Jorge Rivera,

You wrote,
" Kate is a text editor in KDE.
Kate has been used by some IDE providers
( Kdevelop and Anjuta pop in my mind ).
I think this is a great editor for programmers,
although its true power is better exploited by the IDEs
than on its own
( or maybe I don't know how to configure it right... ). "

Thanks, From looking at KDE.ORG,
it seems that it isn't really designed for Windows.
Jul 22 '05 #48

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