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help me learn C

hi everybody am new to this group and help me to learn C

Apr 29 '06
85 4173
On Fri, 5 May 2006 08:14:11 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
<ch***@phaedsys .org> wrote:
In article <gm************ *************** *****@4ax.com>, Mark McIntyre
<ma**********@ spamcop.net> writes
On Thu, 4 May 2006 23:09:17 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
<ch***@phaeds ys.org> wrote:
However many possible new members have been driven way by the same few
trolls insisting on racial purity.


Evidence for this assertion?


See below


You seem to have forgotten to attach the evidence.
Yet the number of Internet users has multiplied by many orders of
magnitude. By chance when looking for something else I found several
other google/yahoo and other forums that were effectively a comp.lang.c
which equal volume to this one.
Did you mean this ?I'm sorry, but unattributable remarks about volumes
of internet users have no bearing on the traffic of CLC. When usenet
started, the VAST MAJORITY (intentional shouting) of users were
techies. Now they're mostly as techy as a frog. You expected them to
want to learn C? Get real.
SO whilst this NG has maintained its volume of traffic/users it is in a
world where if you are not expanding you ARE going backwards.


See above. False conclusion from bogus data.
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
May 5 '06 #71
On Fri, 5 May 2006 08:14:11 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
<ch***@phaedsys .org> wrote:
<who cares>

I forgot to add: threadPLONK
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
May 5 '06 #72
Chris Hills a écrit :
In article <Qxv6g.124023$P 01.80373@pd7tw3 no>, Andrew Poelstra
<ap*******@shaw .ca> writes
Chris Hills wrote:
In article <aj************ *************** *****@4ax.com>, Mark McIntyre
<ma********* *@spamcop.net> writes

On Wed, 3 May 2006 08:48:21 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
<ch***@phae dsys.org> wrote:
>No WE would not. You do.

You have a fundamental misunderstandin g of personal pronouns. We, that
is to say virtually all the regulars, all the main contributors and so
forth here, take a viewpoint that topic preservation is important for
our sanity and in order to keep some sort of focus.

You, that is to say the newcomers, trolls and some others, take a
different stance,

Interesting. ...
I have been on here over 14 years but a member of the ISO C panel for
only about 8 years. I am also one of the principal authors of MISRA-C So
I am not sure with category I fit into.

However many possible new members have been driven way by the same few
trolls insisting on racial purity.

If you want to discuss ISO C there is Comp.std.c


No, if you want to discuss the standard itself that is where you go.

Or standard C... it is where those of use on the ISO C panel discuss ISO
C publicly

If you really want to discuss something in depth that is specific to an
OS or a compiler etc there are specific groups for that.

SO what is comp.lang.c for then? Not the language as used or the
standard.


Uh... unless you've managed to write C code without ever using standard
functions, this is the place for "the language as used".

You clearly know very little about C. there is not a C used in
practical terms that does not use some extensions. There is very little
pure C written.

Many seem to thing it should be widened from discussing purely the C
that is only used in the standard, but virtually no where else, to
encompass the C that is actually used in compilers.


I've written countless programs without using OS-specific functions or
extensions.

Good for you then you are in a very small minority. What targets do you
write for? what sort off applications?

Many questions asked here would be better served on an OS or what ever
specific NG but many questions on C (as actually implemented on
compilers) would be better answered here.

That way people would understand the differences between their compiler
and pure ISO C.. which ISO C? 90, 95/96 99? Or those who still refer to
89 and K&R?


They are all standard C, in that they are C and they are standard.

Then you are WRONG in that assertion.

None
of them contain the functions "getch()" and "clrscrn()" , which are two
of the most common functions people get mad about here.

That is a red herring.

If you say ISO C ie ISO 9899:1999 and nothing else fair enough but you
want it both ways you want o discuss K&R1,2 ANSI C 89, ISO 90, 95, 96,
99 but not any of the standards as implemented.

Many questions could be answered here whilst pointing out that the
question and solution are not ISO standard.


And many questions /are/ answered this way. They just also get redirects
to more topical areas.
As for this NG dying... it is. There are many other C mail lists and
NG's springing up. This one is no longer the only or authoritative
voice.


I'm 14 and started posting here about two months ago, and I agree with
the purists on most every count. Not sure how that qualifies as dying...

You do not know enough to comment. Some of use were on line here before
you were born.

the Internet has expand by many orders of magnitude during your life
time. The traffic here has not. However there are many other forum
similar to c.l.c now around also with as much or more traffic as here.

As c.l.c is not growing in proportion to the growth in the Internet it
is therefore getting smaller.

Comp.lang. c is about C not "standard" C unless you can find a charter
that says otherwise.


The "charter" argument has been previously debunked.

debunked? you miss understand. There is no charter to support your claim
for the narrow definition you have. You can not say what is or is not
correct for this NG other than it is a discussion area for the use of
the C language rather than the C standard.


Hi Chris.

There are other people that think like you. This group should allow
discussing about the language as used, its future, its evolution and
many other important stuff rather than always accepting only homework
and keeping the level of discussion at the ground floor.

We are doing a very interesting discussion (the first one in this group
since at least 10 years) where it is possible to discuss about the
possible evolution of C. See the "Boost process and C" discussion.

jacob
May 5 '06 #73
Chris Hills wrote:
ISO 9899:1999? Which compiler do you use that use a pure implementation
of that?

If you want to widen it out to K&R 1, 2, ANSI89, ISO 90, 95/96 & 99 that
lets most things in except real world implementations .

If you discuss the C language I would have though "as implemented" was a
good idea instead of sending people away to other NG's

This NG is staying static in size rather than growing with the Internet.
What is growing are other c lists and forum where the people who visit
here with a non-pure question end up.

You may say "good" but the net result (no pun intended :-) is that other
forum become THE place to ask authoritative questions on C and
comp.std.C is the place of requisitions on standard C

That leaves this NG dying on its feet because of a few purist.

You have an opportunity to build a much larger community on here. You
can educate people in the differences between what they are doing and
standard C. Make them aware there is a difference. In some cases there
may be a standard or portable way of doing things.
I think a lot of the flak you draw is due to the problems that occurred
down the hall with the C++ group. People are naturally concerned that
this group could degenerate into another windows programming forum.
Before anyone accuses me of bias, I only picked windows because it is
the most widely used platform and most of the OT posts here are from
windows users who don't realise this is a platform neutral group.

Which still leaves the problem of what should and shouldn't be
discussed. The same question came up on the long running "Boost process
and C" thread a few days back.

I think the only contentions issue is whether discussions around the
future evolution of the the language are on or off topic. These could
either take place here, on on c.s.c, or on a third group. As we don't
have another venue, I think general musings and discussions can only
take place here, with more concrete proposals going to c.s.c.
As it is with the way MS are adding TR's etc most questions will be
answered on the MS NG's leaving this NG with a VERY small focus and
fewer people.

TRs are a tricky one, in the C++ world, they tend to be actively
discussed on the moderated group or on the std group, keeping the
unmoderated group for the current language. So the place for TRs is c.s.c.

--
Ian Collins.
May 6 '06 #74
In article <44************ ***********@new s.wanadoo.fr>, jacob navia
<ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> writes
Chris Hills a écrit :
Comp.lang .c is about C not "standard" C unless you can find a charter
that says otherwise.

The "charter" argument has been previously debunked.

debunked? you miss understand. There is no charter to support your claim
for the narrow definition you have. You can not say what is or is not
correct for this NG other than it is a discussion area for the use of
the C language rather than the C standard.


Hi Chris.

There are other people that think like you. This group should allow
discussing about the language as used, its future, its evolution and
many other important stuff rather than always accepting only homework
and keeping the level of discussion at the ground floor.


Thanks.

I shall now retire to the NG's where we discuss, formulate and actually
produce the standards this lot harp on about. I find there are other far
more mature and authoritative NG's for discussion C than this one.

Over the last few years this one seems to have degenerated to where a
few thought police are ruining it. It is getting religious where a few
think they can invent a pseudo charter and push it on the rest of us.

I never got this precious over the NG I created some years back. Let it
live and breath. It served it purpose.
We are doing a very interesting discussion (the first one in this group
since at least 10 years) where it is possible to discuss about the
possible evolution of C. See the "Boost process and C" discussion.


So I saw. Good luck though there have bee other interesting discussion
on here over the last decade and a half but they are getting fewer.

For definitive discussions on ISO C use comp.std.c for mature discussion
son C in general comp.lang.c.mod erated. I got flamed on here for
several things I posted that were well received on the moderated side.
Interestingly by some "house hold names" in the industry.

Regards
Chris

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

May 6 '06 #75
In article <h2************ *************** *****@4ax.com>, Mark McIntyre
<ma**********@s pamcop.net> writes
On Fri, 5 May 2006 08:23:29 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
<ch***@phaedsy s.org> wrote:
In article <Qxv6g.124023$P 01.80373@pd7tw3 no>, Andrew Poelstra
<ap*******@sh aw.ca> writes
Chris Hills wrote:

Uh... unless you've managed to write C code without ever using standard
functions, this is the place for "the language as used".
You clearly know very little about C. there is not a C used in
practical terms that does not use some extensions. There is very little
pure C written.


Okay, now I'm convinced you're not the "real" Chris Hills. This is
such a disingenuous remark to make, its unbelievable. Besides which,
its false.


Perhaps I am biased as I work with a coupe of tool companies who
analyse source code. Perhaps they are all wrong. I am sure you have a
far wider view of the industry than they do.
The "charter" argument has been previously debunked.


debunked? you miss understand. There is no charter to support your claim


You're the one who misunderstands.


If there is no charter then there is no charter and you can not say what
the actual use of the NG is.

Either it is there in print or it is open to interpretation for anyone.

I am as much entitled as you or some one who has been here 8 weeks it
seems to decide that the intended use of this NG is.
Troll alert.


Clearly you are one.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

May 6 '06 #76
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys .org> writes:
[...]
If there is no charter then there is no charter and you can not say what
the actual use of the NG is.

Either it is there in print or it is open to interpretation for anyone.

I am as much entitled as you or some one who has been here 8 weeks it
seems to decide that the intended use of this NG is.


As we all know, there is no written charter simply because the
newsgroup was created before the existence of newsgroup charters.
As a result, topicality is judged by the consensus of the regulars.
I've already stated what I think that consensus is and should be.

Can you explain, with some *specific* examples, what kinds of things
you think should be topical here that people have said shouldn't be?

(By convention, meta-discussions about topicality, like this one, are
considered topical.)

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
May 6 '06 #77
Chris Hills wrote:

If there is no charter then there is no charter and you can not say
what the actual use of the NG is.
Pure, blithering nonsense. Under your theory, we could be discussing
lottery strategy or tuning race car engines.
I am as much entitled as you or some one who has been here 8 weeks it
seems to decide that the intended use of this NG is.


In the absence of a charter, the majority will prevails. You aren't in
the majority. Others have tried your blather in the past, it's failed,
as will you.

Brian
May 6 '06 #78
In article <4c************ *@individual.ne t>, Default User
<de***********@ yahoo.com> writes
Chris Hills wrote:

If there is no charter then there is no charter and you can not say
what the actual use of the NG is.
Pure, blithering nonsense. Under your theory, we could be discussing
lottery strategy or tuning race car engines.


Yes. In most NG's they occasionally stray off topic. In the embedded NG
there is currently s discussion on aids! Most have said it makes a
change and is a good thing to stray occasionally.
I am as much entitled as you or some one who has been here 8 weeks it
seems to decide that the intended use of this NG is.


In the absence of a charter, the majority will prevails. You aren't in
the majority.


given the number of people on here who according to you who ask OT
questions and that a lot of use disagree with the vociferous few you
have no grounds to say that. Let alon any proof..
Others have tried your blather in the past, it's failed,
as will you.


Maybe this time but eventually we will get this back to the open and
friendly NG it was before the thought police got so pious and cranky as
in recent months.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

May 7 '06 #79
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys .org> wrote:
Yes. In most NG's they occasionally stray off topic. In the embedded NG
there is currently s discussion on aids!
Surely there's a more appropriate group in which to discuss AIDS than
the embedded newsgroup.
given the number of people on here who according to you who ask OT
questions and that a lot of use disagree with the vociferous few you
have no grounds to say that. Let alon any proof..
It turns out that the "vociferous few" such as Brian are also the most
uniformly knowledgeable and helpful posters, so if you'd like to
migrate to their killfiles, by all means keep belaboring this point.
Maybe this time but eventually we will get this back to the open and
friendly NG it was before the thought police got so pious and cranky as
in recent months.


You are clearly new here, as our most cranky regular, Dan Pop, has not
been seen in some time.

--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
May 7 '06 #80

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