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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11957
Ian Collins said:
Richard Heathfield wrote:

Well, okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that we're going to
add standard data structure APIs to C.

First step - decide what's in and what's out. Let battle commence.

When you eventually get the blood out of the carpet, the second step is
to agree on an interface. That will take forever and a day.

Third step - get people to use your shiny new standard container library.
Except that they won't, of course, because they will all just carry on
using whatever it is that they're using right now.

The C++ committee did it, is it too hard for C to do the same?


Let's find out. First, the wishlist. See if you can get everyone here to
agree what's in and what's out.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Apr 30 '06 #81
jacob navia wrote:

Whether this nightmare is acceptable or not is a matter of opinion-- but
it strikes me as a whole new class of nightmare that C never had to deal
with before. Like anything, C has its strenths and weaknesses and one of
the strengths has always been the relative lack of nasty surprises.


No surprise here either, if you do not use this feature. Contrary to C++
all this is completely optional. The behavior of old programs and of
programs written not using this features is not affected.

You appear unable of understanding the simple fact that "all this" is
optional in C++ as well.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #82
In article <44************ ***********@new s.wanadoo.fr>, jacob navia
<ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> writes
CBFalconer a écrit :
Back in the last century I downloaded, and actually used, Navia's


Not even that. I told him that I would not even look into it without a
fair payment. Why should I work for him for free? He was the only one
using a 486 that I have ever heard of.


The 486's I know that are still used tend to use the Caduel compiler.
However I think there is more use of the 386 than the 486.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Apr 30 '06 #83
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Ian Collins <ian-
ne**@hotmail.co m> writes
Richard Heathfield wrote:
jacob navia said:

We had this discussion already. I started yet another discussion about
the need for a portable standard container library several times and the
answers were:

<various answers snipped>
The standards comitee doesn't even accept simple data structures like
strings. Lists, flexible arrays, stacks, queues, etc etc must be done
over and over, and are kept OUTSIDE the standard library.

Why?

Well, okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that we're going to add
standard data structure APIs to C.

First step - decide what's in and what's out. Let battle commence.

When you eventually get the blood out of the carpet, the second step is to
agree on an interface. That will take forever and a day.

Third step - get people to use your shiny new standard container library.
Except that they won't, of course, because they will all just carry on
using whatever it is that they're using right now.

The C++ committee did it, is it too hard for C to do the same?

Most users of C want a compact and efficient language. Many have
complained that they don't want all the "new" features in C99 hence the
reason why 7 years on there have been very few implementations of 99

I can't understand why people want to add a lot of C++ features to C. If
you really need those features use C++

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Apr 30 '06 #84
Chris Hills wrote:

Most users of C want a compact and efficient language. Many have
complained that they don't want all the "new" features in C99 hence the
reason why 7 years on there have been very few implementations of 99

I can't understand why people want to add a lot of C++ features to C. If
you really need those features use C++


Agreed, that's why a draw the distinction between new language features
and a new library.

The former can be found in other languages, the latter will make
reliable, portable code easier to produce. The C++ standard library
certainly has, no more roll your own and vendor specific containers.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #85
Ian Collins a écrit :
Richard Heathfield wrote:
jacob navia said:
We had this discussion already. I started yet another discussion about
the need for a portable standard container library several times and the
answers were:

<various answers snipped>
The standards comitee doesn't even accept simple data structures like
strings. Lists, flexible arrays, stacks, queues, etc etc must be done
over and over, and are kept OUTSIDE the standard library.

Why?

Well, okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that we're going to add
standard data structure APIs to C.

First step - decide what's in and what's out. Let battle commence.

When you eventually get the blood out of the carpet, the second step is to
agree on an interface. That will take forever and a day.

Third step - get people to use your shiny new standard container library.
Except that they won't, of course, because they will all just carry on
using whatever it is that they're using right now.


The C++ committee did it, is it too hard for C to do the same?


Apparently yes.
Apr 30 '06 #86
Ian Collins a écrit :
jacob navia wrote:
Whether this nightmare is acceptable or not is a matter of opinion-- but
it strikes me as a whole new class of nightmare that C never had to deal
with before. Like anything, C has its strenths and weaknesses and one of
the strengths has always been the relative lack of nasty surprises.


No surprise here either, if you do not use this feature. Contrary to C++
all this is completely optional. The behavior of old programs and of
programs written not using this features is not affected.


You appear unable of understanding the simple fact that "all this" is
optional in C++ as well.


In another subthread we had this argument already. It is impossible to
dissociate operator overloading from the object oriented framework in
C++. Some operators need a class to be defined, and the implementation
in C++ of operator overloading lacks essential features like
multi-dimensional array indexing, differentiation between read/write
array access and others.

jacob
Apr 30 '06 #87
jacob navia said:
Ian Collins a écrit :
Richard Heathfield wrote:
Well, okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that we're going to
add standard data structure APIs to C.

First step - decide what's in and what's out. Let battle commence.

When you eventually get the blood out of the carpet, the second step is
to agree on an interface. That will take forever and a day.

Third step - get people to use your shiny new standard container library.
Except that they won't, of course, because they will all just carry on
using whatever it is that they're using right now.


The C++ committee did it, is it too hard for C to do the same?


Apparently yes.


I'd be delighted to be proved wrong - but nobody seems terribly interested
in providing concrete proposals (possibly because they know that nobody
will agree about which containers should be included or what their APIs
should look like).
--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Apr 30 '06 #88
jacob navia wrote:
Keith Thompson a écrit :
jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> writes:
ex************* *@gmail.com a écrit :

About libclc - how is that doing? It seems to have just dried up
without notice.
If a C programmer is writing a reasonably large program these days,
what are the first libraries that are commonly used for collections of
data structures, better strings, etc?

Nowhere. Since the C standard comitee refuses to improve the language,
there are a lot of libraries but all of them incompatible.
Perhaps I should have pointed out that, although comp.std.c is the
best newsgroup to discuss changes to the C standard, there's no
guarantee that anyone will actually like your idea, and nobody has any
obligation to discuss it.
Basically, the opinion here is that data structures are too much of an
intellectual effort for C programmers... :-)


Adding a smiley to a pointless insult doesn't make it any less
insulting.


We had this discussion already. I started yet another discussion about
the need for a portable standard container library several times and the
answers were:

Mr Flash Gordon, a "regular" here said: (11 Oct 2004)

"Not only can a lot of programing be done without using hash tables,
list, queues etc, but as I said a lot of programming *is* done without
using such things. Also the natural solution for a lot of problems does
not use such things.


In reply to you saying:
| Since the first message in this thread (admitted, polemic)
| I wanted to take a critical look at remarks like "I never use any
| data structures", and such, implying that C (or programming) can
| be done without using containers like hash tables, lists,
| queues, etc.

Is there anything wrong with pointing out that there are large problem
domains which
Our dear Dan Pop, another "regular" said... (21 March 2004)

"It's been 12 years since I've used a binary tree the last time. In the
meantime, the most complex data structure I *needed* to use was an array
of structures. And I suspect that many programmers use linked lists
only in their homework assignments. "
They fact that people have spent years on serious projects without the
needs of such things proves that you implication that they are required
for serious programming is false.
And everyone accepted those things in silence. Nobody complained.
Obviously they could see the point that there is a lot of serious
programming that does not require such things.

Oh, I just noticed, you appear not to have complained about my comment
either as far as I can see in Google.
The standards comitee doesn't even accept simple data structures like
strings. Lists, flexible arrays, stacks, queues, etc etc must be done
over and over, and are kept OUTSIDE the standard library.
They don't have to be done over and over again. Just pick an
implementation and keep using it.
Why?

Because everyone should use the STL damm it!
Why?
I repeat that such an attitude towards data structures means that indeed
C is the past and C++ the dreaded future.
You (or others) can implement those things in standard reusable C if you
require then. In fact, since October 2004 my job has moved on and I've
done some work using a linked list library written by someone else in
standard C and I'm now using an XML library written in C (the bits I've
looked at are all standard C). I didn't have to write these libraries,
nor did I need them to be part of the C language to use them.

Just because you are unable to write a reusable linked list
implementation in standard C doesn't mean that others can't. To quote you:
| OK. That is what I wanted. I think that the language is making too
| difficult to do that. Each time I need a list, I have to rewrite
| a new set of:
| DATA_LIST *AddToList(DATA *item);
| FindInList(DATA _LIST *list,DATA *item);
| etc

Strangely enough you didn't respond (as far as I can see in Google) to
my suggested alternative interface that would not require rewriting each
time.
I am not inventing this Keith, you should know. You participated to
those discussions.

And you know perfectly well that when I say:
>>Basically, the opinion here is that data structures are too much of an
>>intellectua l effort for C programmers... :-)


I am not insulting anyone but precisely arguing AGAINST that frame of mind.


We use complex data structures when we need them often just reusing
existing code. We don't use them when we don't need them.

Personally I would have no problem if some of the things you suggest
were added to standard C, but that is a discussion for comp.std.c as has
already been pointed out. Or for the standards committee if you want to
join it.
--
Flash Gordon, living in interesting times.
Web site - http://home.flash-gordon.me.uk/
comp.lang.c posting guidelines and intro:
http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Intro_to_clc

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
Apr 30 '06 #89
jacob navia wrote:
Ian Collins a écrit :
jacob navia wrote:
Whether this nightmare is acceptable or not is a matter of opinion--
but
it strikes me as a whole new class of nightmare that C never had to
deal
with before. Like anything, C has its strenths and weaknesses and
one of
the strengths has always been the relative lack of nasty surprises.
No surprise here either, if you do not use this feature. Contrary to C++
all this is completely optional. The behavior of old programs and of
programs written not using this features is not affected.


You appear unable of understanding the simple fact that "all this" is
optional in C++ as well.


In another subthread we had this argument already. It is impossible to
dissociate operator overloading from the object oriented framework in
C++. Some operators need a class to be defined, and the implementation
in C++ of operator overloading lacks essential features like
multi-dimensional array indexing, differentiation between read/write
array access and others.

It has been pointed out elsethread that C would require the same baggage
to implement operator overloading. You have to have an object to
operate on! How would yo implement a = b+c on a plain struct without
the means of constructing a temporary object?

The simple point I'm trying to make is you can write C style procedural
code in C++ without any run time support or object related baggage. All
'advanced' features have a cost, paying that cost is the programmer's
choice.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #90

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