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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11909
In article <4b************ @individual.net >,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote:

I think C would benefit form an active library group which, like boot
had members of the standard's library subcommittee as active
participants .

C is probably one of the only mainstream programming languages that
lacks an evolving library. Maybe C programmers just enjoy reinventing
wheels, if you don't believe me, look back though this group at all the
linked list problem posts.


An attempt toward creating a set of library tools was made
by some participants of this newsgroup a few years ago but
it fell by the wayside. See:

http://libclc.sourceforge.net/

The failure of libclc to take root is not surprising.
Minimalism has been a characteristic of C from the very
beginning. Practitioners of C tend to like that aspect of the
language otherwise they would be programming in something else.
It's no wonder that attempts to burden the language with
additional constructs/libraries/extensions have met with
resistance. The lukewarm reception of C99 is symptomatic of
that view.

--
Rouben Rostamian
Apr 30 '06 #31
Andrew Poelstra wrote:
ex************* *@gmail.com wrote:
One of the very best things that the original ANSI-ification of C did
was to write a standard that described a language that was in use, as
opposed to legislating a language from on high. That process should be
a model for all standardization attempts, everywhere - too many other
standardization processes attempt to go an invent something completely
new, which leads to standards that don't parallel reality.

Now, where did those features and ideas that came into common use after
K&R's first book was published come from? It seems that they just
popped up in compilers, everybody started using them, and so they made
sense to standardize.

These days, what groups are testing/working on new features or
extensions to the language? Comp.std.c is a great place for discussing
the current C language standards, but the C tradition seems to have new
features coming from places other than high committees.

I don't know what features would be great to have in the C of 2010 -
maybe a more powerful strings toolkit, maybe a collection of data
structures, maybe even quadragraphs. Who knows? But what is important
that someone is considering these things and asking these questions.
The Boost group seems to be doing that for C++; who is doing it here?

Quite frankly, a lot of us are happy with the C of 1980. In terms of
forward-looking features, C++ seems the place to go, since C itself will
(should) never use the object-oriented paradigm.

Try posting some ideas in comp.std.c; see for yourself what reaction
you'll get.

Oops! I meant 1989... or whenever C89 was finalized.

--
"Every prime number in a series as a joke
Made all the patterns clear when I took that final toke"
- - Andrew Poelstra <http://www.wpsoftware. net/blog>
Apr 30 '06 #32
Andrew Poelstra wrote:
Andrew Poelstra wrote:
Quite frankly, a lot of us are happy with the C of 1980. In terms of
forward-looking features, C++ seems the place to go, since C itself
will (should) never use the object-oriented paradigm.

Try posting some ideas in comp.std.c; see for yourself what reaction
you'll get.


Oops! I meant 1989... or whenever C89 was finalized.

I wasn't surprised by your original post, I've known C programmers who
scoffed at those mod-fangled prototypes :)

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #33
ex************* *@gmail.com wrote:
One of the very best things that the original ANSI-ification of C did
was to write a standard that described a language that was in use, as
opposed to legislating a language from on high. That process should be
a model for all standardization attempts, everywhere - too many other
standardization processes attempt to go an invent something completely
new, which leads to standards that don't parallel reality.
What? This is a very narrow and unbalanced view of the standard.

ANSI pulled together the largest common subset of all the incompatible
C's out there, then made a few tough choices, and in fact with C89
discarded the original K&R prototypes and other nonsense to make it a
practically useable language that compiler implementers could resonably
support.

The *PROBLEM* is that they did absolutely nothing outside of those
confines with C99 -- so why has C99 been such an utter failure? Didn't
they follow this supposed perfect recipe for standards?

The primary reason for the success of any standard is that it delivers
*REAL VALUE* that wasn't there before. In 1989, some degree of
unification (so that programmer skills became transferrable) was
extremely valuable (read: 100s of billions of dollars kind of
valuable). In 1999 we already *had* a unified standard, so what did
they add that had any real value? The rate of adoption, its actual
usage, and the culture that followed it tells us exactly: nothing.

Standards, where they just pushed forward with "ideas from on high"
include C++ and Java, which as far as I can tell are quite successful
and have plenty of buy in.
Now, where did those features and ideas that came into common use after
K&R's first book was published come from? It seems that they just
popped up in compilers, everybody started using them, and so they made
sense to standardize.

These days, what groups are testing/working on new features or
extensions to the language? Comp.std.c is a great place for discussing
the current C language standards, but the C tradition seems to have new
features coming from places other than high committees.

I don't know what features would be great to have in the C of 2010 -
I do, but I don't seem to have the right credo for anyone to care.
maybe a more powerful strings toolkit,
*Sigh* ...
[...] maybe a collection of data structures,
Ask the libclc people, how their project turned out. Actually the
SGLIB at least took a reasonable crack at it. Even the Boost people
started by writing C extensions.
[...] maybe even quadragraphs. Who knows? But what is important
that someone is considering these things and asking these questions.
And as Jacob Navia says, if they bring it here, they get shot down.
comp.std.c is not much better.

I have at various times posted about possible extensions I would like
to see -- the amazing negative reactions I get are just indescribably
disappointing. People don't care about the practice of programming
anymore, and they don't care about the capabilities of hardware they
paid good money for. And the idea of actually *taking something out*
of the language; that's just sacred ground that couldn't possibly be up
for discussion.
The Boost group seems to be doing that for C++; who is doing it here?


*Sigh* ...

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

Apr 30 '06 #34
Chris Hills schrieb:
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> writes
Chris Hills schrieb:
For embedded work most of the world uses MISRA-C. It is also what the
tool vendors support.


Don't I know it...
Especially Japanese customers ask for MISRA compliance even in
generated code -- and, ideally, always all versions at once.


There are only 2 versions. You can not comply with both at once.


I know ;-)
--
E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.
Apr 30 '06 #35
we******@gmail. com writes:
[...]
ANSI pulled together the largest common subset of all the incompatible
C's out there, then made a few tough choices, and in fact with C89
discarded the original K&R prototypes and other nonsense to make it a
practically useable language that compiler implementers could resonably
support.

[...]

What "original K&R prototypes" are you talking about?

K&R1 didn't have anything called "prototypes ". It did have an older
style of function declarations:

int main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char **argv;
{
...
}

but that's still supported in both C90 and C99.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Apr 30 '06 #36
Ian Collins a écrit :
jacob navia wrote:
Ian Collins a écrit :
Still, C has a big potential of growth with some minor additions like
operator overloading, something that is accepted by more conservative
languages like fortran for instance.
If you want overloading, use C++.


Why?


Because it offers what you are looking for.

Why should I swallow that big fat language?

I just want a few specific features that are part of many programming
languages, from fortran to visual basic...

Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you


If you want a chop do you eat the entire pig? Just use the bits you
want and ignore the rest.


This is not possible. For some operators, C++ decides that they
need to be defined only within a class, and there you are. You are
forced to define classes, constructors, destructors, copy constructors,
and all the stuff.

Besides, there are things that the C++ operator overloading
implementation gets wrong:

1) There is no overloading possible for higher dimensional arrays

array[2][3] is just impossible using overloaded operators.

2) There is no way to distinguish between assignment and reading when
accessing an array. This is specially important when you want to
implement read only data areas.
Apr 30 '06 #37
Keith Thompson a écrit :
we******@gmail. com writes:
[...]
ANSI pulled together the largest common subset of all the incompatible
C's out there, then made a few tough choices, and in fact with C89
discarded the original K&R prototypes and other nonsense to make it a
practically useable language that compiler implementers could resonably
support.


[...]

What "original K&R prototypes" are you talking about?

K&R1 didn't have anything called "prototypes ". It did have an older
style of function declarations:

int main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char **argv;
{
...
}

but that's still supported in both C90 and C99.


If sizeof(int) == 16 and sizeof(void *) == 32 you needed to declare:

extern char *fn();

before you used it, if not, wrong code would be generated since an int
returning function would be assumed

jacob
Apr 30 '06 #38
jacob navia wrote:
Ian Collins a écrit :
jacob navia wrote:
Why should I swallow that big fat language?

I just want a few specific features that are part of many programming
languages, from fortran to visual basic...

Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you

If you want a chop do you eat the entire pig? Just use the bits you
want and ignore the rest.


This is not possible. For some operators, C++ decides that they
need to be defined only within a class, and there you are. You are
forced to define classes, constructors, destructors, copy constructors,
and all the stuff.

That's because they only make sense in the context of an object, you
have to (for example) add something to something else. The are no
restrictions on function overloading. You could use a simple struct.
Besides, there are things that the C++ operator overloading
implementation gets wrong:

1) There is no overloading possible for higher dimensional arrays

array[2][3] is just impossible using overloaded operators.
Indeed.
2) There is no way to distinguish between assignment and reading when
accessing an array. This is specially important when you want to
implement read only data areas.


There is a very simple technique known as proxy objects to solve this
problem, but that's a bit to OT for this forum.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #39
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> writes
Chris Hills schrieb:
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> writes
Chris Hills schrieb:
For embedded work most of the world uses MISRA-C. It is also what the
tool vendors support.

Don't I know it...
Especially Japanese customers ask for MISRA compliance even in
generated code -- and, ideally, always all versions at once.


There are only 2 versions. You can not comply with both at once.


I know ;-)


In any event "compliance " is anything you want as there is no official
certification or compliance testing for MISRA-C. Just like most C
compilers claim to be "ANSI C" or "ISO C".

However there will be an example suite for MISRS-C2 by the end of the
year. It will not be exhaustive so I expect it to grow over the next
couple of years.

Hopefully as MISRA-C3 is developed the example suite will be developed
with it and launched at the same time..

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Apr 30 '06 #40

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