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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11904
On 5 May 2006 18:13:17 -0700,
we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote
in Msg. <11************ **********@j33g 2000cwa.googleg roups.com>
Robert Latest wrote:
On 2006-05-04, we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote:
> I think the point is that there are *many* such application. In fact I
> would be suspicious of anyone who claimed to be an experienced
> programmer who hasn't *written* one of these.
...and I would be suspcious of anyone who claimed to be an
experienced programmer who can't write the necessary routines
from scratch in less time than it takes to download, install, and
understand a dedicated string library. In fact I want to see a
single experienced programmer who hasn't written his own little
string library at some point in his career -- be it as a
homework assignment or just to kill time on a rainy weekend.


Can you write 102 well tested functions


I said "the necessary functions".
that are aliasing safe, support
write protection, have a performance advantage over comparable straight
C across the board
How can they have a performance advantage over "straight C" functions if
they add functionality to them and, more paradoxically, are written in
straight C themselves?
You also make the mistake of thinking experienced programmers are C
programmers. C (and C++) is the only language where someone would want
to *write* a string library.


True. More to the point, every C programmer builds more or less his own
C library over the years.

robert
May 11 '06 #321
On Sat, 06 May 2006 14:48:30 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote
in Msg. <4c************ *@individual.ne t>
I fear that C is in danger of shrinking into that ever diminishing niche
where other languages can't go.


Even if that were so, why is it something to fear?

robert
May 11 '06 #322
On Thu, 11 May 2006 21:24:17 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote
in Msg. <4c************ *@individual.ne t>
Robert Latest wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 14:48:30 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote
in Msg. <4c************ *@individual.ne t>
I fear that C is in danger of shrinking into that ever diminishing niche
where other languages can't go.

Even if that were so, why is it something to fear?

Where C goes, so do it its programmers.


They can always learn a different language.

robert
May 11 '06 #323
"Robert Latest" wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2006 23:08:10 +0200,
John F <sp**@127.0.0.1 > wrote
in Msg. <44************ ***********@tun ews.univie.ac.a t>
Sure we can. But here you agree that the result is meaningless in
the
sense of being a date (thus not staying within the domain).


That alone isn't enough to make it meaningless. After all, the
difference of two dates makes perfect sense although it is not a
date.


It is meaningless in context. You get a new object, which is only an
artefact of applying an operation which is not defined yet. You can't
define it by saying the converse operation yields the same result. You
will have to find a representation if you want to implement it. This
means (as Keith pointed out correctly) to fix an offset and a scale
for your representation of dates thus applying another projection into
the body of (maybe even) the real numbers. Only there you are allowed
to use the analogy of adding dates. There it is defined (although the
backtransform will give illegal dates). You can't define date1+date2
without assuming a representation as numbers.

--
regards
John
May 11 '06 #324
Robert Latest wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 21:24:17 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote
in Msg. <4c************ *@individual.ne t>
Robert Latest wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 14:48:30 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote
in Msg. <4c************ *@individual.ne t>

I fear that C is in danger of shrinking into that ever diminishing niche
where other languages can't go.
Even if that were so, why is it something to fear?


Where C goes, so do it its programmers.

They can always learn a different language.

I did, several.

But I still hate to see my first programming language marginalised.

--
Ian Collins.
May 11 '06 #325
Robert Latest wrote:
On 5 May 2006 18:13:17 -0700,
we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote
Robert Latest wrote:
On 2006-05-04, we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote:
> I think the point is that there are *many* such application. In fact I
> would be suspicious of anyone who claimed to be an experienced
> programmer who hasn't *written* one of these.

...and I would be suspcious of anyone who claimed to be an
experienced programmer who can't write the necessary routines
from scratch in less time than it takes to download, install, and
understand a dedicated string library. In fact I want to see a
single experienced programmer who hasn't written his own little
string library at some point in his career -- be it as a
homework assignment or just to kill time on a rainy weekend.


Can you write 102 well tested functions


I said "the necessary functions".


I've got plenty of emails and toy programs telling me that those 102
functions are *necessary*. Remember, as I counted out for CBF, the
number of functions in Bstrlib are comparable to those in the C
standard library, and the library is meant as a complete replacement
for char *, and the key here is "well tested". Writing anything
non-trivial that is well tested in 1 hour (the estimated time of
downloading, including the files in your project, and skimming the
documentation the point of rudimentary understanding) seems highly
unlikely.
that are aliasing safe, support
write protection, have a performance advantage over comparable straight
C across the board


How can they have a performance advantage over "straight C" functions if
they add functionality to them and, more paradoxically, are written in
straight C themselves?


Because its a re-interpretation of the representation of strings versus
the char * nonsense that people generally use. There is something
preventing people from realizing that length prefixed strings just lays
waste to char * performance pretty much always (and the backwards
compatibility with char * meaning the few cases where the char * wins,
I can't lose either.) So its faster because people are either
unwilling to put in the effort, or are unable to write performance
optimized code, or are ignorant of the good speed paths of most
compilers or whatever to duplicate the performance of Bstrlib.

That is a lot of the value add of it. If it were so easy, why can't I
find anything comparable? Microsoft has a bazillion employees they
could throw at the problem, and the best they could come up with is
MFC's CString and TR 24731.

There's nothing deep going on here -- Bstrlib is just written to a
fairly high standard.
You also make the mistake of thinking experienced programmers are C
programmers. C (and C++) is the only language where someone would want
to *write* a string library.


True. More to the point, every C programmer builds more or less his own
C library over the years.


Right. But this just bolsters the case that there should be an STL for
C.

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

May 11 '06 #326
Robert Latest wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 14:48:30 +1200,
Ian Collins <ia******@hotma il.com> wrote:
I fear that C is in danger of shrinking into that ever diminishing niche
where other languages can't go.


Even if that were so, why is it something to fear?


C is the only really scalable programming language that has intuitively
predictable performance. Unfortunately, the C standard committee
specific disavows this fact.

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

May 11 '06 #327
In article <44************ ***********@tun ews.univie.ac.a t>,
John F <ca************ @gmx.at> wrote:
It is meaningless in context. You get a new object, which is only an
artefact of applying an operation which is not defined yet. You can't
define it by saying the converse operation yields the same result.
Why not? It is perfectly reasonable to define objects in terms of the
operations that can be performed on them.
You will have to find a representation if you want to implement it.
So what? That can be completely opaque to the user. Every implementation
can do it differently.
This
means (as Keith pointed out correctly) to fix an offset and a scale
for your representation of dates thus applying another projection into
the body of (maybe even) the real numbers.
That's one possible implementation, probably the most reasonable one.
Only there you are allowed
to use the analogy of adding dates.


Why?

-- Richard
May 11 '06 #328
On 11 May 2006 03:10:31 -0700,
we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote
in Msg. <11************ **********@j33g 2000cwa.googleg roups.com>
True. More to the point, every C programmer builds more or less his own
C library over the years.


Right. But this just bolsters the case that there should be an STL for
C.


Container libraries are a good idea. But they shouldn't be mandated by
the standard. It's both counterproducti ve and unneccessary. Let's not
confuse the debate over the usefulness or necessity of some library with
the debate about what should and should not be C.

robert
May 11 '06 #329
Robert Latest wrote:
On 11 May 2006 03:10:31 -0700,
we******@gmail. com <we******@gmail .com> wrote
in Msg. <11************ **********@j33g 2000cwa.googleg roups.com>
True. More to the point, every C programmer builds more or less his own
C library over the years.


Right. But this just bolsters the case that there should be an STL for
C.

Container libraries are a good idea. But they shouldn't be mandated by
the standard. It's both counterproducti ve and unneccessary. Let's not
confuse the debate over the usefulness or necessity of some library with
the debate about what should and should not be C.

The C++ standard library has been almost universally accepted by the
developer community. Being standard, it provides a solid base for
portable code. As such, it has become a very productive tool.

Its success has been partly due to to the language committee
standardising a well regarded library that was already widely used. It's
unfortunate the C lacks such a library.

--
Ian Collins.
May 11 '06 #330

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