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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11964
Chris Torek schrieb:
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>
Michael Mair <Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> wrote:
As C99 is largely ignored[*] in the embedded community ...
[*] This is my perception and may be wrong.


One data point: Wind River (which sells in the "embedded" market)
is moving towards full C99 support, however slowly. It is at least
a "checkbox item", if not one of the high priority ones.


I am looking forward to the discussions at my working place ;-)
("You see? _They_ started it. Now we should think about moving
in this direction...")
Is there any date by which Wind River wants to have arrived at
full C99 support?

Best regards
Michael
--
E-Mail: Mine is an /at/ gmx /dot/ de address.
Apr 29 '06 #21
Ian Collins a écrit :
jacob navia wrote:
Because everyone agrees that C is dead and should NOT be developed any
further. It should be left for embedded systems with small RAM footprint
where C++ can never run.

C isn't dead, it's mature, there is a difference.

Still, C has a big potential of growth with some minor additions like
operator overloading, something that is accepted by more conservative
languages like fortran for instance.


If you want overloading, use C++.


Why?

Why should I swallow that big fat language?

I just want a few specific features that are part of many programming
languages, from fortran to visual basic...

Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you

This small change would make possible to write good string libraries,
good numerical libraries, etc.

Another feature is the overloaded functions feature that could allow a
limited amount of generic programming.


Same here, these features exist elsewhere, if you want them, go there.


Same thing. Why take all that machinery when it is not needed?
The problem with ultra FAT languages like C++ is their incredible
complexity!

Constructors and destructors?

Who needs them?

Just get a sensible garbage collector and be done with the need for them.

Object oriented programming can be nice in *some* situations but why
should it be FORCED into everyone?
Apr 29 '06 #22
jacob navia wrote:
Ian Collins a écrit :
Still, C has a big potential of growth with some minor additions like
operator overloading, something that is accepted by more conservative
languages like fortran for instance.

If you want overloading, use C++.


Why?

Because it offers what you are looking for.
Why should I swallow that big fat language?

I just want a few specific features that are part of many programming
languages, from fortran to visual basic...

Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you
If you want a chop do you eat the entire pig? Just use the bits you
want and ignore the rest.
Another feature is the overloaded functions feature that could allow a
limited amount of generic programming.


Same here, these features exist elsewhere, if you want them, go there.


Same thing. Why take all that machinery when it is not needed?
The problem with ultra FAT languages like C++ is their incredible
complexity!

Which you don't have to use.
Constructors and destructors?

Who needs them?
Do I detect a rant? Obviously you don't require them, so don't use them.
Object oriented programming can be nice in *some* situations but why
should it be FORCED into everyone?


Who said anything about OO? The subject was function and operator
overloading, which is a complexity C can do without, but other languages
offer.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 29 '06 #23
Keith Thompson wrote:
we******@gmail. com writes:
[...]
The people in this newsgroup who have imposed their will that this
newgroup simply not discuss this issue are part of the problem of
course. If there is no clear place where the evolution of C can be
discussed, then it won't be, and C will not evolve.

[...]

There is. It's called comp.std.c.


I and well known security expert tried to discuss TR 24731 there. Its
no use. That laughable embarassment is almost certainly going to be
included in the next C standard. The people in that newsgroup, some of
whom are presumably standards people are irrationally obstinant about
their positions. I mean, I was "wrong" because I didn't put together a
counter proposal to TR 24731 and Microsoft did (even if I did, I'm not
sure if that's what it takes to *delete* a proposal by a highly funded
contributor ...). So they are "right" because they happened to put
effort (read: money) into it.

I also lurked for a while and saw one of the regulars bite the head off
of a technical suggestion to clarify the description of one of the
functions -- objectively speaking this change is required, since the
current language technically allows for things clearly not intended. I
mean what the hell is that? Is there no concern for technical
excellence? Perhaps they are worried that producing the documentation
to make this change would take too much time (i.e., a cost that nobody
was volunteering to pick up.)

It seems to me that that group is all about weeding and filtering
people out. Perhaps, if I got myself hired at a system vendor and flew
half way around the world to their meetings, or something like that
maybe they might listen to me. But I don't even have a *stake* in this
-- *I* can program high performance bignums, multithreading, pool based
self-checking heaps, graphics, device drivers and safe strings without
the standard's help. So they undermine themselves because they cannot
be receptive to my comments, because I am unwilling to jump through
their hoops to make them listen (just posting doesn't count.)

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

Apr 30 '06 #24
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> writes
Chris Hills schrieb:
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> writes
Chris Hills schrieb:

In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>, Michael Mair
<Mi******** **@invalid.inva lid> writes<mention of "Embedded C">
What is "Embedded C" and who developed it?

http://www.embedded-c.org
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/
That is NOT "Embedded C"

It is basically a TR for extensions for DSP's I know I had some
(minor) input into it at various WG14 and other meetings.

There is no embedded C as there is EC++ (which was developed outside the
ISO process)


I am aware of the difference between what I called "Embedded C" --
BTW: You can find exactly this TR


I have the TR and some of the drafts.
and articles about it by searching
for "Embedded C" -- and C on embedded systems. I called the thing
by the name by which it was introduced to me (via CUJ, Embedded
Systems and friends).

For embedded work most of the world uses MISRA-C. It is also what the
tool vendors support.


Don't I know it...
Especially Japanese customers ask for MISRA compliance even in
generated code -- and, ideally, always all versions at once.


There are only 2 versions. You can not comply with both at once.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Apr 30 '06 #25
In article <4b************ *@individual.ne t>
Michael Mair <Mi**********@i nvalid.invalid> wrote:
I am looking forward to the discussions at my working place ;-)
("You see? _They_ started it. Now we should think about moving
in this direction...")
Is there any date by which Wind River wants to have arrived at
full C99 support?


Nobody ever tells me that sort of thing. :-)

We have two compilers, though: Diab and GCC. GCC supports "whatever
GCC supports"; Diab's C99 is "getting closer but still not all that
close" as far as I know ("restrict" support just went in recently,
for instance). The RTP libraries in 6.x are from Dinkumware and
should be fully C99, to whatever extent the C compilers get C99
right.

(I do not work on either the compilers or the libraries, except to
whatever extent we run into problems with I/O, including 64-bit
file sizes and such.)
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W) +1 801 277 2603
email: forget about it http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html
Reading email is like searching for food in the garbage, thanks to spammers.
Apr 30 '06 #26
One of the very best things that the original ANSI-ification of C did
was to write a standard that described a language that was in use, as
opposed to legislating a language from on high. That process should be
a model for all standardization attempts, everywhere - too many other
standardization processes attempt to go an invent something completely
new, which leads to standards that don't parallel reality.

Now, where did those features and ideas that came into common use after
K&R's first book was published come from? It seems that they just
popped up in compilers, everybody started using them, and so they made
sense to standardize.

These days, what groups are testing/working on new features or
extensions to the language? Comp.std.c is a great place for discussing
the current C language standards, but the C tradition seems to have new
features coming from places other than high committees.

I don't know what features would be great to have in the C of 2010 -
maybe a more powerful strings toolkit, maybe a collection of data
structures, maybe even quadragraphs. Who knows? But what is important
that someone is considering these things and asking these questions.
The Boost group seems to be doing that for C++; who is doing it here?

Apr 30 '06 #27
ex************* *@gmail.com wrote:
One of the very best things that the original ANSI-ification of C did
was to write a standard that described a language that was in use, as
opposed to legislating a language from on high. That process should be
a model for all standardization attempts, everywhere - too many other
standardization processes attempt to go an invent something completely
new, which leads to standards that don't parallel reality.

Now, where did those features and ideas that came into common use after
K&R's first book was published come from? It seems that they just
popped up in compilers, everybody started using them, and so they made
sense to standardize.

These days, what groups are testing/working on new features or
extensions to the language? Comp.std.c is a great place for discussing
the current C language standards, but the C tradition seems to have new
features coming from places other than high committees.

I don't know what features would be great to have in the C of 2010 -
maybe a more powerful strings toolkit, maybe a collection of data
structures, maybe even quadragraphs. Who knows? But what is important
that someone is considering these things and asking these questions.
The Boost group seems to be doing that for C++; who is doing it here?

Quite frankly, a lot of us are happy with the C of 1980. In terms of
forward-looking features, C++ seems the place to go, since C itself will
(should) never use the object-oriented paradigm.

Try posting some ideas in comp.std.c; see for yourself what reaction
you'll get.
--
"Every prime number in a series as a joke
Made all the patterns clear when I took that final toke"
- - Andrew Poelstra <http://www.wpsoftware. net/blog>
Apr 30 '06 #28
The greatest strength of C I've seen is not the fact that it can run on
small machines (even though this is nice). The greatest strength is how
simply and cleanly we can construct arbitrary data structures in C. It
is very often clear how to construct whatever structure is desired, be
it a simple linked list or something like VLists. This is because there
are no artificial binds on how you can use/abuse memory.
In terms of forward-looking features, C++ seems the place to go, since C itself will (should) never use the object-oriented paradigm.


Not all forward-looking features are object-oriented. Take for example
gcc's nested functions or Java's for-each loops. Or glib's set of data
structures. And there are no reasons why C89 can't be used to write
clean OO code, should you want to write OO code.

Stuff I'd like to see? I'd love to have a small set of portable data
structures - cons cells, lists, arrays. I'd also love to have Java's
for-each loop and Lisp's defstruct. But I'm hardly qualified to know
what is worth suggesting.

What I don't think should be the case is that the future of C be
dictated by only what extensions compilers come up with. Instead I
think that it'd be nice to have a high-quality set of libraries (a la
Boost), developed by a group for the purpose of asking questions about
the future of C, that offer innovative features. Maybe 99% of these new
features fail the test of general approval. That 1% that makes it
through would be worth it.

Apr 30 '06 #29
ex************* *@gmail.com wrote:
The greatest strength of C I've seen is not the fact that it can run on
small machines (even though this is nice). The greatest strength is how
simply and cleanly we can construct arbitrary data structures in C. It
is very often clear how to construct whatever structure is desired, be
it a simple linked list or something like VLists. This is because there
are no artificial binds on how you can use/abuse memory.
I agree, a bit of therapeutic C is a good thing after a solid week of
scripting language programming :)
In terms of forward-looking features, C++ seems the place to go, since C itself will (should) never use the object-oriented paradigm.

Not all forward-looking features are object-oriented. Take for example
gcc's nested functions or Java's for-each loops. Or glib's set of data
structures. And there are no reasons why C89 can't be used to write
clean OO code, should you want to write OO code.

Conversely, not all C++ features are OO. The standard library is
anything but. So one can write clean procedural code in C++.
Stuff I'd like to see? I'd love to have a small set of portable data
structures - cons cells, lists, arrays. I'd also love to have Java's
for-each loop and Lisp's defstruct. But I'm hardly qualified to know
what is worth suggesting.
There are two subsets of wishes there, standard library extensions and
language extensions.
What I don't think should be the case is that the future of C be
dictated by only what extensions compilers come up with. Instead I
think that it'd be nice to have a high-quality set of libraries (a la
Boost), developed by a group for the purpose of asking questions about
the future of C, that offer innovative features. Maybe 99% of these new
features fail the test of general approval. That 1% that makes it
through would be worth it.

Again, consider the distinction between libraries and language features.
Boot is dedicated to the former, using the standard language as its base.

I think C would benefit form an active library group which, like boot
had members of the standard's library subcommittee as active
participants.

C is probably one of the only mainstream programming languages that
lacks an evolving library. Maybe C programmers just enjoy reinventing
wheels, if you don't believe me, look back though this group at all the
linked list problem posts.

--
Ian Collins.
Apr 30 '06 #30

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