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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11909
jacob navia said:
This lack of depth in the discussion provokes that most people stop
contributing and go away.
So why the constant high traffic?

C people will be seen as a conservative group
Only by silly people who can't understand the very, very, very simple idea
of discussing /THIS/ computery stuff in comp.this and /THAT/ computery
stuff in comp.that.
of old fashioned programmers that do not go beyond the linked list and
are so conservative that harmless changes like generic functions, or
even default arguments are seen as an heresy.
No, they're seen as being suitable for discussion elsewhere.
This group has no chart actually,
That is true on so many levels, and is possibly the most accurate statement
you've ever made.
and this narrowing of the scope of
this discussion group about the C programming language (something that
also involves the evolution of C) has no legal basis whatsoever.
This isn't a question of "legal basis". This is a question of keeping
important expertise around. The traffic is quite high enough as it is, and
it's already impossible for busy people to read every article in sufficient
detail to do it justice.

If we start accepting questions on raw I/O, directory parsing, menu design,
getting and setting file attributes, free memory, process catalogs,
threads, free disk space, maps, the current background colour, detecting
and updating the current printing device, tape drives, vectors, BIOS
information, baud rate retrieval, drive letters, connecting to a socket,
pixel-scraping, default arguments, pids, uids, gids, EBCDIC, file
timestamps, partitioned data sets, interrupt vectors, updating the system
date and time, inheritance, process forking, classes, event handling,
setting the current drive, ASCII, operator overloading, pipes, interfacing
with physical registers, try/catch exception handling, connecting to a
database, bitmap file formats, clearing the screen, the syntax of select
statements, the syntax of SELECT statements, polymorphism, floodfill, pie
charts, text prediction, daemons, device contexts, resource handles,
multimaps, inline assembly language, iostreams, readln, writeln, setting
environment variables, curses, ncurses, vncurses, and all the rest of it,
then it will be rather harder for the experts in straightforward portable C
programming to discover where that expertise can best be applied.
Eventually they'll stop bothering to try, and that expertise will be lost
to Usenet.
But the "regulars" have always won in discouraging people from any
in-depth discussion.
Not true. What we have done is ***encouraged** * that discussion to take
place elsewhere on Usenet, where there are plenty of newsgroups for the
purpose.
Maybe because they fear that C will lose some original "purity"
No. Duh. It's because - here, let me try this in words of one syllable.

I. S. O. C source is good to port. Code that is not I. S. O. C is hard to
port. These are two things to talk, not one thing to talk. We need a place
where we can talk C that is good to port. This is that place. We need a
place where we can talk not-I.S.O. C, sure, but there are more place than
this place. You can use those place if you want to talk not I. S. O. C but
this place is for I. S. O. C and that is what we all want to talk. If you
want to talk I. S. O. C this is a good place and if you want to talk not I.
S. O. C there are lots of place where you can talk that.

Get it yet?
or (probably more often) because they believe that C++
is the future and that C should be destroyed as anything capable of
evolving.
Oh, for heaven's sake, this is programming, not a religion. People find it
useful to have a newsgroup for discussing portable C programming. If you
find that useful too, great, stick around - you're welcome to join the
group but not to destroy it. If you don't find it useful to have a
newsgroup for discussing portable C programming, great, that's fine, go
elsewhere where there are lots of other newsgroups.
I hope I am wrong.


Always, it seems.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
May 2 '06 #141
jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:
Keith Thompson a écrit :
comp.lang.c++ in effect tried a similar experiment some years ago. It
barely survived. As it drowned in a flood of discussions of
system-specific C++ programming, the regulars who wanted to talk about
the language itself drifted away.


But that's the point Keith. We want to talk ABOUT THE LANGUAGE ITSELF.


No, the regulars do. _You_ want to talk about your own little toy.

Well, do it somewhere else. There _are_ lcc newsgroups; go there if you
want to discuss an embrace-and-extend lcc-based suite.

Richard
May 2 '06 #142
Richard Bos a écrit :
jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:

Keith Thompson a écrit :
comp.lang.c+ + in effect tried a similar experiment some years ago. It
barely survived. As it drowned in a flood of discussions of
system-specific C++ programming, the regulars who wanted to talk about
the language itself drifted away.


But that's the point Keith. We want to talk ABOUT THE LANGUAGE ITSELF.

No, the regulars do. _You_ want to talk about your own little toy.

Well, do it somewhere else. There _are_ lcc newsgroups; go there if you
want to discuss an embrace-and-extend lcc-based suite.

Richard


It is useless to discuss with you Richard. I do not want to discuss lcc
specific issues. I want to discuss about improving C strings for
instance, about a container library etc.

No matter how many times I say this, you will always answer with ironic
answers like "your little toy" etc.

You can go on if you wish. I will go on posting here. Neither you nor
anyone else has any authority to tell me what I should do or not do.

jacob
May 2 '06 #143
jacob navia said:
I want to discuss about improving C strings for
instance, about a container library etc.
Nobody is stopping you. Why not get on with it? For example: what containers
do you think a standard C container library should make available? What
should the APIs look like? And how will you persuade people to use the new
library instead of whatever they are using right now?

I have asked these questions before. You seem reluctant to pursue them.

You can go on if you wish. I will go on posting here. Neither you nor
anyone else has any authority to tell me what I should do or not do.


That's right. You are free to throw your reputation down the tubes, and
nobody here can stop you, try as they might.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
May 2 '06 #144
Richard Heathfield a écrit :
jacob navia said:

I want to discuss about improving C strings for
instance, about a container library etc.

Nobody is stopping you. Why not get on with it? For example: what containers
do you think a standard C container library should make available?


What we should agree is a common interface for all containers, and
prescribe a few minimal ones.

A common interface means that all containers have the same method (i.e.
function name, arguments) for accessing it, adding to it, deleteing from
it, etc.

This allows the user to switch easily from one container (say a list) to
another (say a table) without too much rewriting of code.

The minimum set for containers would be:

Lists
Flexible arrays
Hashtables

What should the APIs look like?
We have the common verbs like Create, Add, Delete, Find, etc. The same
verbs should be used in all of them, if possible and if it makes sense.

I have several months ago proposed an interface for containers where we
use extensible function tables. In this manner we would keep the
interface flexible enough.

The first slot of a container would be a pointer to a table of functions
that would implement the different actions to be done in the container.
The creation function would fill that table.

The usage would be:

list->FnTable->Add(list,"Item ");

In this way, the user could change specific parts of the API at run time
to fit his/her needs ("subclassin g") easily.
And how will you persuade people to use the new
library instead of whatever they are using right now?

If this library is accepted by the standards comitee it would be added
to the language.

I have asked these questions before. You seem reluctant to pursue them.


Yes, because in this polemic situation it is difficult to discuss
matters with the necessary objectivity. I am not saying I know all the
answers and this is quite difficult. It is made even more difficult if
there is an hostile atmosphere around.
May 2 '06 #145
On 2006-04-30, jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:
We had this discussion already. I started yet another discussion about
the need for a portable standard container library several times and the
answers were:
[ quotes of clc regulars saying that such a library is
unnecessary snipped ... ]
And everyone accepted those things in silence. Nobody complained.
Which you failed to take as a pretty strong hint to the fact that
the regulars might be right, and you might be wrong.
The standards comitee doesn't even accept simple data structures like
strings. Lists, flexible arrays, stacks, queues, etc etc must be done
over and over, and are kept OUTSIDE the standard library.

Why?
Why not? This way the language itself is kept lean and simple,
and those that need more complex stuff can choose from a host of
good libraries that do what they want. GLib comes to mind as an
example.
I repeat that such an attitude towards data structures means that indeed
C is the past and C++ the dreaded future.


And who cares? Why the fuzz? Why are you wasting your time in a
Usenet group about a soon-to-be-dead language anyway?

robert

May 2 '06 #146
On 2006-04-30, jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:
Third step - get people to use your shiny new standard container library.
Except that they won't, of course, because they will all just carry on
using whatever it is that they're using right now.


Until they have to port it to a new environment. Then they will see how
easy is to port the libc. Basically you do not port it.


And the STL is easier to port?

robert
May 2 '06 #147
On 2006-04-29, jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:
Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you


What's so great about operator overloading?

robert
May 2 '06 #148
Ian Collins wrote:
Where would you draw the line on topicality?

My interpretation is

Off topic:

Platform specific issues.
Product specific issues.

On topic:

The current language and its use.
This contradicts both of the two Off topic categories that you cite.
Potential improvements?


To which the familliar refrain is "if you don't like the features of C,
use some other language".

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

May 2 '06 #149
Robert Latest a écrit :
On 2006-04-29, jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:

Operator overloading is a well known technique, no need to swallow
all C++ to get it. Thank you

What's so great about operator overloading?

robert


It is a technique for defining new numeric types and new kinds of
operations for numeric types.

This is not possible in standard C.
May 2 '06 #150

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