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Boost process and C

Hi,

Is there any group in the manner of the C++ Boost group that works on
the evolution of the C language? Or is there any group that performs an
equivalent function?

Thanks,
-vs

Apr 29 '06
335 11904
Spoon <ro**@127.0.0.1 > writes:
Paul Hsieh wrote:
Well, there is also no group for discussing the *practice*
of C programming,


If your OS conforms to POSIX, then you can discuss it in
comp.unix.progr ammer

If your OS is Linux, then also try comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps
the implementation of C compilers/libraries,


You can discuss this in comp.compilers and on the GCC mailing list.
common C compilers and their extensions,


You can discuss this in your platform's group,
e.g. comp.unix.progr ammer and comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps
algorithms in C or C variants either.


comp.unix.progr ammer, comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps , comp.programmin g

Paul, could you stop sounding like you have no clue about Usenet?
(I know it's not the case.)


And if you want a newsgroup that discusses C programming without
limiting itself to the ISO standard, you can always advocate the
creation of such a newsgroup. I suggest that comp.programmin g.c would
be a good name for it. The procedures for creating a new newsgroup
are well documented. Or you can create your own alt.* group; they're
much easier to create, but they don't necessarily propagate as well.

You should decide just what the scope of the new newsgroup should be.
Don't be surprised if a lot of the people who agree with you that
comp.lang.c's scope is too narrow are unable to come to an agreement
on what the scope of this new newsgroup should be.

There's also alt.comp.lang.l earn.c-c++, which is looser than
comp.lang.c, but I don't think it's what you're looking for.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
May 1 '06 #111
WG14 has been consistently active. In the last few years significant changes have been made to reflect the actual usage of C. Cell phones, automotive and process control are using TR18037 features. There is a lot in C99 that addresses MISRA concerns.
Rumours of its death or retirement are premature.

w..
jacob navia wrote:
jacob navia a écrit :
Most of them think, as one of them
said:

"C++ is the future, we are just waiting that C programmers die out."


May 1 '06 #112
Spoon wrote:
Paul Hsieh wrote:
Well, there is also no group for discussing the *practice*
of C programming,
If your OS conforms to POSIX, then you can discuss it in
comp.unix.progr ammer


What has UNIX got to do with anything? The number of people who
mistakenly think they can post here with gcc or Visual C questions is
pretty staggering.
If your OS is Linux, then also try comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps
I don't get you train of thought -- these are newsgroups about
operating systems, not C.
the implementation of C compilers/libraries,


You can discuss this in comp.compilers and on the GCC mailing list.
common C compilers and their extensions,


You can discuss this in your platform's group, e.g. comp.unix.progr ammer
and comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps


A compiler need not target only one platform, and what if I want to
discuss multiple extensions of different compilers? (In apartheid
South Africa, these kinds of divisions were called bantustans.)
algorithms in C or C variants either.


comp.unix.progr ammer, comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps ,


Again with the OS-specific groups. If I'm not discussing Linux or Unix
programming, why would I discuss C algorithms/implementations in those
newsgroups?
[...] comp.programmin g
Well, I do there, but the newsgroup is implicitely language neutral.
The audience really doesn't include people who want to dive into the
differences between va_arg implementations on various compilers. Its
just too diluted -- you might as well point me in the direction of
alt.talk.

Look -- in a single post I want to discuss how one might implement
va_copy() in VC or gcc, discuss platform neutral heap extensions, or
compare debuggers. Similarly, how about extensions such as jacob
navia's lcc variant, or Walter Bright's D? comp.programmin g might be
the place, except that its diluted by an audience who probably wouldn't
bite.
Paul, could you stop sounding like you have no clue about Usenet?


What are you talking about? There is a big gapping vacumm in Usenet,
and that is discussion of practical C programming. By name its obvious
that comp.lang.c is supposed to be that group. Instead there is this
clever shift where this group should properly called comp.std.c, and
the comp.std.c group should be called comp.std.c.disc ussion or
something like.

By shifting over by one, that runs us out of room, and we're stuck with
no group to discuss the practice of programming in C. Of course that
doesn't stop the constant posting by people about platform specific C
concerns here -- you'd think *somebody* would buy a clue from that.

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

May 1 '06 #113
we******@gmail. com a écrit :

What are you talking about? There is a big gapping vacumm in Usenet,
and that is discussion of practical C programming. By name its obvious
that comp.lang.c is supposed to be that group. Instead there is this
clever shift where this group should properly called comp.std.c, and
the comp.std.c group should be called comp.std.c.disc ussion or
something like.

Well, that is the point: this clever shift, where here will only be the
talk about standard C as it is now, or (better) as it was in 1989.

Nobody authorized the people here to do that but they did it, and they
will destroy any discussion about anything beyond that. Of course if
somebody asks why i++ = i++ does not work THAT will be answered for the
millionths time.

This lack of depth in the discussion provokes that most people stop
contributing and go away. C people will be seen as a conservative group
of old fashioned programmers that do not go beyond the linked list and
are so conservative that harmless changes like generic functions, or
even default arguments are seen as an heresy.

Walter Bright participates sometimes here, but he has started his own
language and probably doesn't have any interest in evolving C as such,
even if D is very similar to C.

By shifting over by one, that runs us out of room, and we're stuck with
no group to discuss the practice of programming in C. Of course that
doesn't stop the constant posting by people about platform specific C
concerns here -- you'd think *somebody* would buy a clue from that.


This group has no chart actually, and this narrowing of the scope of
this discussion group about the C programming language (something that
also involves the evolution of C) has no legal basis whatsoever.

But the "regulars" have always won in discouraging people from any
in-depth discussion. Maybe because they fear that C will lose some
original "purity" or (probably more often) because they believe that C++
is the future and that C should be destroyed as anything capable of
evolving.

Sadly that could be the opinion of many standards comitee people too.

I do not see any other explanation for the complete absence of any
directions from that comitee. They are NOT planning any revision for
2009, and basically they will block any new development of the language
forever.

I hope I am wrong.

jacob
May 1 '06 #114
Herbert Rosenau wrote:
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:18:12 UTC, jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr>
wrote:
The problem is that instead of getting away from strings as zero
terminated array of characters they STILL hang to it. THEN all functions
must be explicitely be given the length of the strings/buffers/etc even
if it is immediately obvious that the programmer can't know in all cases
what that dammed length is nor should he care!

typedef struct _string {
size_t length;
char *Stringdata
} String;


When you needs a string that knows its length you should use pascal.
It does this by design.


You are saying you should throw out an entire language because you
don't like the way it handles strings? Are you aware that many Pascal
implementations have strings limited to a length of 255 characters?

There are somewhat easier, and less retarded solutions to this problem:

http://bstring.sf.net/

--
Paul Hsieh
http://www.pobox.com/~qed/
http://bstring.sf.net/

May 1 '06 #115
we******@gmail. com writes:
You are saying you should throw out an entire language because you
don't like the way it handles strings?


It depends on your priorities. I wouldn't want to rewrite a Perl
program that does complex string processing in C. It's going to
get a lot longer and possibly harder to read (depending on how
much taste the Perl programmer had).
--
"We put [the best] Assembler programmers in a little glass case in the hallway
near the Exit sign. The sign on the case says, `In case of optimization
problem, break glass.' Meanwhile, the problem solvers are busy doing their
work in languages most appropriate to the job at hand." --Richard Riehle
May 1 '06 #116
Ben Pfaff a écrit :
we******@gmail. com writes:

You are saying you should throw out an entire language because you
don't like the way it handles strings?

It depends on your priorities. I wouldn't want to rewrite a Perl
program that does complex string processing in C. It's going to
get a lot longer and possibly harder to read (depending on how
much taste the Perl programmer had).


You mean then in substance:

"Since C strings are completely screwed up, do NOT try to change that,
but learn Perl".

May 1 '06 #117
In article <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g>, Keith Thompson <kst-
u@mib.org> writes
Spoon <ro**@127.0.0.1 > writes:
Paul Hsieh wrote:
Well, there is also no group for discussing the *practice*
of C programming,


If your OS conforms to POSIX, then you can discuss it in
comp.unix.progr ammer

If your OS is Linux, then also try comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps
the implementation of C compilers/libraries,


You can discuss this in comp.compilers and on the GCC mailing list.
common C compilers and their extensions,


You can discuss this in your platform's group,
e.g. comp.unix.progr ammer and comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps
algorithms in C or C variants either.


comp.unix.progr ammer, comp.os.linux.d evelopment.apps , comp.programmin g

Paul, could you stop sounding like you have no clue about Usenet?
(I know it's not the case.)


And if you want a newsgroup that discusses C programming without
limiting itself to the ISO standard, you can always advocate the
creation of such a newsgroup.


OR even a change of use of this one
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

May 1 '06 #118
jacob navia <ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> writes:
Ben Pfaff a icrit :
we******@gmail. com writes:
You are saying you should throw out an entire language because you
don't like the way it handles strings?

It depends on your priorities. I wouldn't want to rewrite a Perl
program that does complex string processing in C. It's going to
get a lot longer and possibly harder to read (depending on how
much taste the Perl programmer had).


You mean then in substance:

"Since C strings are completely screwed up, do NOT try to change that,
but learn Perl".


No. I mean that some string operations can be expressed shorter
and with more clarity in Perl than in C. No new string library
will change this.

If you want to actually change the C language to improve its
string support, as you seem to want, that's completely separate.
But your changes to C won't affect my software for 10 years or
more, because that's at least how long it'll take for them to get
into the standard (assuming they ever do) and then make it into
a wide range of real-world implementations .
--
"When I have to rely on inadequacy, I prefer it to be my own."
--Richard Heathfield
May 1 '06 #119
On Mon, 01 May 2006 21:52:08 +0200, in comp.lang.c , jacob navia
<ja***@jacob.re mcomp.fr> wrote:
Ben Pfaff a écrit :
we******@gmail. com writes:

You are saying you should throw out an entire language because you
don't like the way it handles strings?

It depends on your priorities. I wouldn't want to rewrite a Perl
program that does complex string processing in C. It's going to
get a lot longer and possibly harder to read (depending on how
much taste the Perl programmer had).


You mean then in substance:

"Since C strings are completely screwed up, do NOT try to change that,
but learn Perl".


More accurately
"C has no native string type, if you find you need to excessively
manipulate strings, perl may suit your needs better".

Of course, feel free to stick with your highly pejorative version.

--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
May 1 '06 #120

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