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On Java and C++

Java programmers seem to always be whining about how confusing and
overly complex C++ appears to them. I would like to introduce an
explanation for this. Is it possible that Java programmers simply
aren't smart enough to understand C++?

This is not merely a whimsical hypothesis. Given my experience with
Java programmers --- the code they write and the conversations they
have --- Occam's Razor points to this explanation. For example,

"Oooh I'm confused about the difference between pointers, references,
and objects! How confusing!"

"Oooh operator overloading confuses me! The expression x + y is so
confusing, who knows what's happening with that? If x and y are
complex numbers, what the hell could x + y mean?"

"Oooh multiple inheritance is so confusing! Though I am both a father
and a programmer, I still find it so confusing how the same object can
be two different things! How confusing!"

"Oooh and virtual bases are so bizarre! I am a student --- myself
'the father' is the same student as myself 'the programmer' --- but
nonetheless the idea of virtual bases is absolutely confounding and
confusing to me!"

Again, Occam's Razor is a valuable tool here. In deciding among
competing hypotheses, choose the simplest one. To impartial observers
of indoctrinated Java programmers, the explanation is simple indeed.

Apr 26 '06
458 21563
Followups set to non-Java groups.

Timo Stamm wrote:
Getters and Setters are another good example. Sure, the IDE can generate
them. But C#s properties are a lot more elegant.
A good design that doesn't need them at all is slightly more elegant
there. ;-)


That's the point.


No it isn't.
The following link explains it better than I did
http://cephas.net/blog/2004/02/16/c_..._and_setx.html


The more elegant design follows "the hollywood principle". That means "tell
don't ask". (Specifically it means "don't call us we'll call you", but with
slightly greater odds of getting called!)

In the more elegant design, clients tell classes what to do. Clients don't
Get variables (regardless of whatever syntactic sugar is available), then
change data, then call Set variables to push the data back in. Clients
should send messages to servant classes, and these should perform whatever
secret manipulations are required to obey these commands.

Put another way, classes should obey both the physical and logical meaning
of the rule "no public data". Yes, a Get method is slightly more
encapsulated that raw public data. But it's still not fully encapsulated.

The blog you cite quotes Martin Fowler, who assumes we know this before
discussing the C# property system.

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
May 4 '06 #371
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, Mishagam
<no*****@provid er.com>
wrote
on Wed, 03 May 2006 20:14:11 GMT
<na************ ******@southeas t.rr.com>:
Noah Roberts wrote:
Mishagam wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote:
Mishagam wrote:

> C++ references are not SO different from pointers. Just like Roedy Green
> said - one more addressing mode. I doubt any well designed language
> (like Java) would have (or has) references.
...
C++ pointers and references have completely different purposes.


'purpose' is what language designers imagined references would be used
for. Functionaly, as I understand, difference between references and
pointers is little syntax sugar [ -> replaced with . ] + what values
they can hold - references cannot hold null or objects allocated by new.
But you CAN have reference to destructed object out of scope (or field
in deleted object allocated on heap). Also references syntax resembles
value objects enough that is is difficult to distinguish what you are
using now. It is one more way where C++ loses C clarity.
What I meant is difference with pointer is too small to justify
existence of references for well designed language. I think that
designers of C++ just hated C pointers too much to think rationally.

By the way, I have little problem. I Wiki about C++ reference types I read:
"Once a reference is created, it cannot be later made to reference
another object; we say it cannot be reseated. This is often done with
pointers."
But in my VS 2003 C++ compiler you can easily put new value to
reference, like code sample below. Do you know who is correct here?


You can certainly store through the reference. See below for a
line-by-line description of what this program is actually doing.

(assuming #include <cstdio> at the top, for completeness)

int main() {
OK, no runtime arguments expected during invocation.
int aa = 25;
OK, declaration and initialization of auto variable aa.
int & ra = aa;
OK, declaration of reference ra, an alias for aa. Scope is
routine main(). (It is possible to declare a static reference
to a static variable. It is also possible to declare a
local reference to a static variable. It is not possible to
declare a static reference to a local variable, since the local
variable is out of scope.)
int bb = 323;
OK, declaration and initialization of auto variable bb.
ra = bb;
OK, assignment of bb to aa (via ra). aa now contains 323.
printf("ra= %d\n", ra);
OK, "ra= 323\n" is output.
int *ii = new int;
OK, allocation of a dynamic int.
*ii = 999;
OK, *ii is now initialized to the value 999.
ra = *ii;
OK, aa now contains 999.
printf("ra= %d\n", ra);
OK, "ra= 999\n" is output.
ii = NULL;
OK, ii now contains the pointer NULL.
ra = *ii;
NULL pointer dereference, should cause a failure.
Never mind what *ii is trying to assign to; the system
will dutifully load ii into a register, which will then
contain 0. It will then dereference that register,
causing an exception.
.....
THis code compiled and run OK on VS 2003


Then VS2003's generated code may have a problem.
It segfaults on my machine, as expected.

If you really want I can dump the generated code here as
well, to show you what's going on. There's not much in
the way of GCC-generated comments, so I'll put my own in.
This is on an x86/32 machine running Linux; the syntax is a
little different from Intel's standard (e.g., Intel would
write "movl $25, -4(%ebp)" as "MOV LONG PTR -4(EPB),#25"
or some such; the reasons for the flip are historical).

.section .rodata
..LC0:
.string "ra= %d\n"
.text
.align 2
..globl main
.type main, @function
main:
..LFB3:
pushl %ebp ; standard frame
..LCFI0:
movl %esp, %ebp ; ... adjustment code
..LCFI1:
subl $24, %esp ; apparently this is scratch area
; for subroutine calls
..LCFI2:
andl $-16, %esp ; stack alignment
movl $0, %eax ; clear %EAX
subl %eax, %esp ; No-operation, but why??
movl $25, -4(%ebp) ; store 25 into aa
leal -4(%ebp), %eax ; get aa's location into %EAX
movl %eax, -8(%ebp) ; and store it into ra, which makes
; it a de facto pointer which is
; never moved, as far as the code
; generation is concerned -- looks
; fairly straightforward from a
; backend's standpoint, but may be
; slightly misleading here
movl $323, -12(%ebp) ; initialize bb
movl -8(%ebp), %edx ; get ra's location into %EDX
; this looks a little weird but
; remember that ra is supposed to
; be a reference; however, the
; compiler is treating it as a sort
; of const pointer
movl -12(%ebp), %eax ; get bb's value (323) into %EAX
movl %eax, (%edx) ; store 323 into aa, which is what
; ra is (always) referring to
movl -8(%ebp), %eax ; get ra's location
movl (%eax), %eax ; ... then its value
movl %eax, 4(%esp) ; construct ...
movl $.LC0, (%esp) ; ... parameter list for printf()
call printf ; ... and call it.
movl $4, (%esp) ; construct parameter list
call _Znwj ; ... and call global 'operator new'
movl %eax, -16(%ebp) ; stuff the pointer into ii
movl -16(%ebp), %eax ; now get ii back out again (!)
movl $999, (%eax) ; and shove 999 into it
movl -8(%ebp), %edx ; get ra's location (still aa)
; into %EDX
movl -16(%ebp), %eax ; get ii's *value* into %EAX
movl (%eax), %eax ; dereference ii
movl %eax, (%edx) ; ... and store it into aa
movl -8(%ebp), %eax ; now get ra's location again
movl (%eax), %eax ; ... and fetch its value
movl %eax, 4(%esp) ; construct ...
movl $.LC0, (%esp) ; ... parameter list for printf()
call printf ; and call it.
movl $0, -16(%ebp) ; zap ii
movl -8(%ebp), %edx ; get ra's location yet again
movl -16(%ebp), %eax ; get ii's value again
movl (%eax), %eax ; ***CRASH***
movl %eax, (%edx) ; store ii's deferenced value
movl $0, %eax ; compiler-inserted 'return 0'
leave ; bye...
ret

Obviously, the compiler's doing some interesting (and rather dumb)
things in code generation. The comments are mine, of course, and
hopefully illustrative of its "thinking" process. (For those
schooled in compiler theory, I for one find it interesting that
it's not pushing things onto the stack, but using offsets.)

If I turn on the optimizer (-O) the program gets far shorter,
and probably faster (for what it's worth here).

..globl main
.type main, @function
main:
..LFB14:
pushl %ebp ; standard frame ...
..LCFI0:
movl %esp, %ebp ; ... adjustment code
..LCFI1:
subl $8, %esp ; space for parameters
..LCFI2:
andl $-16, %esp ; align/space for aa,bb, and ii,
; presumably
movl $323, 4(%esp) ; aa=323 store directly
; into printf()'s parameter list;
; the compiler has correctly
; concluded that the '25' value is
; never used, and also doesn't
; bother with an explicit store
movl $.LC0, (%esp) ; setup for printf()
call printf ; and call
movl $4, (%esp) ; we do need 4 bytes
call _Znwj ; ... from 'operator new'
movl $999, (%eax) ; initialize *ii = 999
movl $999, 4(%esp) ; and also store it directly into
; printf()'s parameter list again
; since we've really done very
; little here
movl $.LC0, (%esp) ; setup again
call printf ; and call
movl $0, %eax ; store 0 into ii, presumably
movl %ebp, %esp ; ... hey, wait, you're supposed
popl %ebp ; ... to CRASH HERE!
ret

It would appear that gcc's optimizer has eliminated a
store into *ii at the very end, and "saved" the program.
This is actually an optimizer bug. I suspect VC++ is doing
something similar.

I do not advocate depending on this bug, of course.

Your program would probably be more illustrative if you
were to replace your printf("ra= %d\n", ra) calls with
printf("ra= %d aa= %d bb= %d\n", ra, aa, ab) calls.

I'll have to see if 3.4.6 has the same problem. The code is from 3.3.6.

(Note that crackers do this sort of thing on an ongoing basis, looking
for exploitable loopholes in assembly code. No, I'm not a cracker, but
I do know several dialects of assembler, including this one.)

Now....after *all* that, I can throw another problem out at you.
Suppose one has the code

#include <cstdio>
int main() {
int a[2];
int b[2];
int & ra0 = &a[0];
int & ra1 = &a[1];
a[0] = 1;
a[1] = 2;
b[0] = 3;
b[1] = 4;

ra0 = b[0];
ra1 = b[1];

printf("%d %d %d %d\n", a[0], a[1], b[0], b[1]);

return 0;
}

The output is

3 4 3 4

and it should be very clear as to why.

--
#191, ew****@earthlin k.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
May 4 '06 #372
"Phlip" <ph******@yahoo .com> wrote in
news:do******** ***********@new ssvr30.news.pro digy.com:
Followups set to non-Java groups.

Timo Stamm wrote:
Getters and Setters are another good example. Sure, the IDE can
generate them. But C#s properties are a lot more elegant.

A good design that doesn't need them at all is slightly more elegant
there. ;-)


That's the point.


No it isn't.
The following link explains it better than I did
http://cephas.net/blog/2004/02/16/c_..._java_getx_and
_setx.html


The more elegant design follows "the hollywood principle". That means
"tell don't ask". (Specifically it means "don't call us we'll call
you", but with slightly greater odds of getting called!)

In the more elegant design, clients tell classes what to do. Clients
don't Get variables (regardless of whatever syntactic sugar is
available), then change data, then call Set variables to push the data
back in. Clients should send messages to servant classes, and these
should perform whatever secret manipulations are required to obey
these commands.

Put another way, classes should obey both the physical and logical
meaning of the rule "no public data". Yes, a Get method is slightly
more encapsulated that raw public data. But it's still not fully
encapsulated.

The blog you cite quotes Martin Fowler, who assumes we know this
before discussing the C# property system.


You are correct that the data should be private.

But I like the IDEA of C# Properties generating functions. I feel it
encourages the use of them to provide non-variable results. For example,
a Square might have a property Area, (get only) that returns the area of
the square. Or a Color Object might have multiple Properties, RGB or CMYK
for example, that translate to different representations . Internally, it
may use some other definition but that state can only be changed by using
the properties you exposed.

Otis

May 4 '06 #373
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
ii = NULL;
ra = *ii; THis code compiled and run OK on VS 2003
Then VS2003's generated code may have a problem.
It segfaults on my machine, as expected.


I can recall an MS situation where *NULL contained a 0ul in each address
space. That's because so many NULLs were causing problems that MS decided to
make *NULL bizarrely temporarily useful. (char*)0 would appear to be "", for
example.

I could be wrong; all this is both undefined behavior and off-topic, etc...
movl -8(%ebp), %edx ; get ra's location (still aa)
; into %EDX


props!

--
Phlip
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
May 4 '06 #374
Phlip wrote:
In the more elegant design, clients tell classes what to do. Clients don't
Get variables (regardless of whatever syntactic sugar is available), then
change data, then call Set variables to push the data back in. Clients
should send messages to servant classes, and these should perform whatever
secret manipulations are required to obey these commands.


Agreed.

Still, an argument could be made that if a program has design errors, then they
should /look/ like design errors too.

So the correct design for the language is for it to provide "properties "
instead of requiring get/set() pairs. And the correct design for any program
written /in/ that language is for it not to use properties at all.

;-)

-- chris


May 4 '06 #375
Phlip schrieb:
Followups set to non-Java groups.

Timo Stamm wrote:
Getters and Setters are another good example. Sure, the IDE can generate
them. But C#s properties are a lot more elegant.
A good design that doesn't need them at all is slightly more elegant
there. ;-) That's the point.


No it isn't.


Then I misunderstood your point.

I thought that "them" referred to accessor methods. Now I realize that
you referred to public members in general.

The following link explains it better than I did
http://cephas.net/blog/2004/02/16/c_..._and_setx.html


The more elegant design follows "the hollywood principle". That means "tell
don't ask". (Specifically it means "don't call us we'll call you", but with
slightly greater odds of getting called!)

In the more elegant design, clients tell classes what to do. Clients don't
Get variables (regardless of whatever syntactic sugar is available), then
change data, then call Set variables to push the data back in. Clients
should send messages to servant classes, and these should perform whatever
secret manipulations are required to obey these commands.

Put another way, classes should obey both the physical and logical meaning
of the rule "no public data". Yes, a Get method is slightly more
encapsulated that raw public data. But it's still not fully encapsulated.


All agreed. But I don't think that full encapsulation is appropriate in
all cases, even in a clean object oriented design.

I think the following article of Martin Fowler has a balanced view on
the topic:

http://www.martinfowler.com/bliki/GetterEradicator.html
Timo

The blog you cite quotes Martin Fowler, who assumes we know this before
discussing the C# property system.

May 4 '06 #376
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, Phlip
<ph******@yahoo .com>
wrote
on Thu, 04 May 2006 03:24:34 GMT
<St************ **@newssvr33.ne ws.prodigy.com> :
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
ii = NULL;
ra = *ii; THis code compiled and run OK on VS 2003


Then VS2003's generated code may have a problem.
It segfaults on my machine, as expected.


I can recall an MS situation where *NULL contained a 0ul in each address
space. That's because so many NULLs were causing problems that MS decided to
make *NULL bizarrely temporarily useful. (char*)0 would appear to be "", for
example.

I could be wrong; all this is both undefined behavior and off-topic, etc...
movl -8(%ebp), %edx ; get ra's location (still aa)
; into %EDX


props!


I'll admit, I for one would love to see an -S option in Java. Best I
can do is to use BCEL afterwards. :-) Or maybe gcj.

ObOffTopic: It appears gcc has a similar problem. I'll have to see if a
"dead" pointer store is mistakenly optimized away in a non-main()
routine; that could lead to some subtle C++ bugs.

Microsoft may be having a hangover from its DOS days, when 0000:0000
was a valid address of sorts. :-)

--
#191, ew****@earthlin k.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
May 4 '06 #377

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, Noah Roberts
<ro**********@g mail.com>
wrote
on 3 May 2006 09:51:31 -0700
<11************ **********@e56g 2000cwe.googleg roups.com>:

Mishagam wrote:
Noah Roberts wrote:
> Mishagam wrote:
>
>> C++ references are not SO different from pointers. Just like Roedy Green
>> said - one more addressing mode. I doubt any well designed language
>> (like Java) would have (or has) references.
>
> Java has references.
>
Excuse me. I meant separate references and pointers with so close
functions. Java has references, but they have also some features of C++
pointers like they can be null.
C++ pointers and references have completely different purposes. The
fact that Java lacks pointers is just another can't.


Pointers are a means to an end (well, so is everything else in
a computer language, really). Exactly what is it that Java can't
do in this space?


None that matter to Java.

I can't say Java's, "everything is a reference except when it is not,"
is a move up from having explicit value, reference, and pointer
semantics that operate in a uniform manner.


It would help if "uniform" = "consistent with type declaration".

int a[5];
int * b = a;

just isn't quite kosher to those schooled in Pascal, convenient as it
might be otherwise; it should be:

int a[5];
int * b = &a[0];


You can use this syntax if you wish and believe it makes more sense.
Nothing stopping you there. You can even establish a coding standard
to say the former is not allowed. Nothing stopping you there. Since
C++ doesn't make pointless artificial restrictions just to enforce a
policy that is really a developer side issue you can also do the former
if it makes sense to you, and it does to most C++ programmers (who
cares about programmers in another language...code in the language you
are using).
(I don't remember the actual Pascal offhand. It's been too long,
and in any event standard Pascal didn't have an addr() method.)
Hmmm...I don't see Pascal used for a lot of stuff.
I'm also not all that sure of the usefulness of such things as

const char * p = "A rainy day in Georgia";
const char * q = p + 15; // q="Georgia"

unless q is an index variable stepping through p's string,
usually in a for or while loop:

for(q = p; *q; q++) { ... }
Umm...yeah, that is one use....why did you say you weren't sure of its
usefulness??!!
And of course there are the problems with such things as punning:

char * p = "Another rainy day in Georgia";

void routine(const char * p, char * q)
{
for(;*p;p++, q++) *q = (*p) + 1;
}
Well that function is bad for numerous reasons, not the least of which
is its use of char* instead of string. There are numerous ambiguities
that need be established that can only be so by looking at that code.
For one, who owns q?

Also, even a java programmer should see that it blows up. If you are
familiar with pointers enough to even know what that does you can see
that it doesn't work.
routine(p,p);

which could confuse maintainers of routine() -- especially
if routine() for some reason frees its arguments without
checking them first.
Yes, who owns q?

That routine is just poorly designed and even poorly implemented. Yes,
you can write bad code in any language and C++ is certainly no
exception to that.
For its part Java has its own problems with arrays:

int[] s = new int[]{1,2,3};


Ick, and you say C++ has ugly syntax.

int s[] = {1, 2, 3};

May 4 '06 #378

"Timo Stamm" <ti********@arc or.de> wrote in message
news:44******** **************@ newsread2.arcor-online.net...
Oliver Wong schrieb:

does that mean that the designers of Java should have used the string
"i" instead of "implements " as the keyword? It depends on whether one
values clarity or terseness.
No. But maybe it could have looked like this:

class Foo : List

"public" is made default, ":" replaces "implements " (extends could be
replaced by "<").


Not sure "<" is the best choice, as it might be mistaken for a generic
type argument, but otherwise the idea is sound.


A better example for superfluous verbosity:

ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>> l = new
ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>>();

Wouldn't it be nice to have local type inference here?

def l = new ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>>();
I had forgotten about this feature in C++, and I can see the utility of
it. These two syntactic-sugar changes sound harmless enough that I think you
could (relatively) easily write a compiler that compiles from this new
language back to "plain" Java, and from there run the standard java compiler
to get the class files (or gcj for executables or whatever).

Getters and Setters are another good example. Sure, the IDE can generate
them. But C#s properties are a lot more elegant. You can start with simple
public members and introduce getters and setters later without any need to
change the clients of the class.


The language could forbid public fields altogether, and have

<code>
public int foo;
</code>

be syntactic sugar for

<code>
private int foo;

public int foo {
get { return foo; }
set { foo = value; }
}
</code>

assuming the language had some sort of mechanism for disabiguating between
the public property and the private field.

- Oliver

May 4 '06 #379

Timo Stamm wrote:
No. But maybe it could have looked like this:

class Foo : List

"public" is made default, ":" replaces "implements " (extends could be
replaced by "<").
Don't know if you meant to imply that C++ works that way but it
doesn't. "public" is not the default inheritance mode, private is.

A better example for superfluous verbosity:

ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>> l = new
ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>>();

Wouldn't it be nice to have local type inference here?

def l = new ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object>>();
You mean like this?:

typedef ArrayList<Entry <String, Integer, Object> > AL;

AL l1;
AL l2;

VERY commonly done.

Getters and Setters are another good example. Sure, the IDE can generate
them. But C#s properties are a lot more elegant. You can start with
simple public members and introduce getters and setters later without
any need to change the clients of the class.


Getters and Setters are just poor design indicating that perhapse a
class is not the best data type to represent your data or that your
classes are lazy.

May 4 '06 #380

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by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
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10671
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
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10310
tracyyun
by: tracyyun | last post by:
Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
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isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
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7035
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
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5884
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
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4088
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
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3142
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

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