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On Java and C++

Java programmers seem to always be whining about how confusing and
overly complex C++ appears to them. I would like to introduce an
explanation for this. Is it possible that Java programmers simply
aren't smart enough to understand C++?

This is not merely a whimsical hypothesis. Given my experience with
Java programmers --- the code they write and the conversations they
have --- Occam's Razor points to this explanation. For example,

"Oooh I'm confused about the difference between pointers, references,
and objects! How confusing!"

"Oooh operator overloading confuses me! The expression x + y is so
confusing, who knows what's happening with that? If x and y are
complex numbers, what the hell could x + y mean?"

"Oooh multiple inheritance is so confusing! Though I am both a father
and a programmer, I still find it so confusing how the same object can
be two different things! How confusing!"

"Oooh and virtual bases are so bizarre! I am a student --- myself
'the father' is the same student as myself 'the programmer' --- but
nonetheless the idea of virtual bases is absolutely confounding and
confusing to me!"

Again, Occam's Razor is a valuable tool here. In deciding among
competing hypotheses, choose the simplest one. To impartial observers
of indoctrinated Java programmers, the explanation is simple indeed.

Apr 26 '06
458 21648

Timo Stamm wrote:
Noah Roberts schrieb:
However, flash is much more expensive for the devolper, who doesn't
even have to pay for the JDK but has to pay a fortune for flash.


Actually, the current version of the Eclipse based Flash IDE is
available for free. There is also an ActionScript2 open source compiler,
and an alternative to the upcoming ActionScript3 - HaXe - that will
target current and future Flash Players.


I did not know any of that...obviousl y. Thanks for the info.
I write applets it is with Java, not Flash and certainly not C++. But
when I write cross-platform code that won't be running in a browser
most of the time I use C++, not Flash, and not Java (though sometimes I
think about that as an alternative).


I must admit that I don't like most Java desktop apps. Swing just
doesn't feel like a native GUI. SWT is much better than Swing, but it
has disadvantages too.


My opinion is based more on the general clunkyness of the
implementations for my chosen OS. Java seems to work quite a bit
better on Windows than on Linux. C++ options for cross-platform
development (which are numerous) actually provide an end result that
is, in my opinion, a better all around solution that runs better on the
target platforms. Sure, there might be a little more work but not much
really...not when I use the tools available to me instead of
reinventing the wheel only to come up with a square one.

Apr 28 '06 #181
> Won't respond to your personal attack but I will respond to your claim
I am purposfully misinterpreting your statements.

QUOTE
Exactly how can the memory leak that cannot exist, be detected and
require a different solution?


If you discovered a true leak, you have to create an SSCCE and submit
that to the JVM vendor, or the AOT run time vendor.
ENDQUOTE

Both your original statement and your reply indicate that the non set
theory interpretation of your words are in fact what you originally
meant. Are you claiming otherwise? If so then perhaps you wish to
reword YOURSELF instead of letting other attempt weed nuggets of
insight on their own? There is at least one other person who
interpreted what you said as I have so your meaning is obviously not as
clear as you indicate. If I misinterpret your words it is because they
are ambiguous at best...not because I do so on purpose.


His word are clear... for every one who familiar with java.
Its just different levels.

True leaks are just another level - they can appear only if JVM has a heavy
bug.
Only JVM vendor should/can fix such bugs.
You can't fix JVM, you have to write SSCCE and send it to JVM vendor.

Andrey

--
http://uio.imagero.com Unified I/O for Java
http://reader.imagero.com Java image reader
http://jgui.imagero.com Java GUI components and utilities
Apr 28 '06 #182

Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
His word are clear... for every one who familiar with java.
Its just different levels.
And that is my interpretation. I don't go along with the null set
interpretation of his statements. So apparently, if I am
misinterpreting what he said then you are also and that makes at least
three people now.
True leaks are just another level - they can appear only if JVM has a heavy
bug.
Only JVM vendor should/can fix such bugs.
You can't fix JVM, you have to write SSCCE and send it to JVM vendor.


That is a pretty major can't but isn't so different I suppose than a
buggy compiler. However, a buggy compiler could theoretically be fixed
yourself if it is OS. On the other hand even fixing java on a single
platform involves cooperation from Sun does it not? I know there are
licensing issues I just don't know how controlling they are.

You would also necessarily have to get all your users to switch to your
fixed VM. Your fixed compiler just generates a now good executable you
can pass on.

That all depends on OS versions of the compilers and VMs involved...as
is the case in any other proprietery system if you don't have the
source you are at the mercy of the vendor...in other words fucked.

Anotehr point though is that with a buggy compiler you have a broken
program, not a program that only breaks on one VM.

Apr 28 '06 #183
TJW
Hello,

On 28 Apr 2006 09:34:56 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Won't respond to your personal attack but I will respond to your claim
I am purposfully misinterpreting your statements.

As a purely outside observer to this thread, I found this
statement fairly amusing considering the following text that has
appeared in this thread.

On 28 Apr 2006 07:53:46 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Ahhh yes, the last ditch attack from the weak.
On 27 Apr 2006 11:08:42 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Only one incapable of learning very simple techniques to make it a
non-issue.
...
So, if your mind is boggled by memory and exception handling then you
better stick to simple problems.
On 27 Apr 2006 12:06:16 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Well since you can't read and/or comprehend what you are reading I
think it would be a waste of time and effort to offer any proof of
anything to you...besides being unwilling to prove something I didn't
bring up.
On 27 Apr 2006 12:19:47 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
You need to have your mind reading ability rechecked. It isn't working
anymore. IMHO you shouldn't have grown to depend on it anyway.

Your logical reasoning circuitry could use some work too...
On 27 Apr 2006 16:27:49 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
This is just stupid...almost as stupid as
me having to point this out to you.

I definately hear a vacuum...
On 28 Apr 2006 08:54:21 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Come back when you can understand.

And perhaps my personal favorite:

28 Apr 2006 08:29:24 -0700 "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> writes:
Another totally unrelated ad hominem. You are obviously a very stupid
person. I base this on your method of argument, your inability to
argue effectively, your inability to comprehend simple statements, and
your overwhelming supply of idiotic assumptions that have nothing,
whatsoever, to do with the purported evidence.

...there is ample evidence in your own statements to support that you
are in fact an idiot.

Sometimes the threads started by the trolls end up the most
informative ...
Good Luck,
-TJW



Apr 28 '06 #184
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, Mishagam
<no*****@provid er.com>
wrote
on Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:59:33 GMT
<FZ************ ******@tornado. southeast.rr.co m>:
peter koch wrote:
I agree here. Readability matters a lot. And here C++ is a clear
winner, due to its more advanced features such as templates, operator
overloading and RAII,


You are joking, Right?


I think he's serious, but then RAII may or may not be a big issue. I
for one can't tell at this point.

The typical usage paradigm is opening a file:

[a] normal case.

File f = ...; // optional
FileInputStream fs = new FileInputStream (f);

....

fs.close();

[b] with exception handling.

File f = null;
FileInputStream fs = null;

try
{
f = ...;
fs = new FileInputStream (f);
doSomething(fs) ;
}
catch(Exception ex)
{
log.error("Oops ", ex);
}
finally
{
if(fs != null) try { fs.close(); } catch(Exception ex2) {}
}

I've seen prettier but the general idea is clear enough.

In C++:

{
std::ifstream ifs("pathname") ;
doSomething(ifs );
}

is far simpler; if an exception is thrown std::ifstream:: ~ifstream
is also guaranteed to be called. However, I have no idea what

{

std::ifstream ifs1("pathname" );
std::ifstream ifs2(ifs1);
doSomething(ifs 1);
doSomething(ifs 2);
}

or

{

std::ifstream ifs1("pathname" );
std::ifstream ifs2("path2");

ifs1 = ifs2;

doSomething(ifs 1);
doSomething(ifs 2);
}

are intended to do; the most logical would be the C++ equivalent
of dup2(). In Java, one runs into object aliasing issues:

FileInputStream fs1 = ...;
FileInputStream fs2 = fs1;

in the foregoing fs1 and fs2 refer to *the same object*. This is either
a bug or a feature.

--
#191, ew****@earthlin k.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
Apr 28 '06 #185
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, Noah Roberts
<ro**********@g mail.com>
wrote
on 28 Apr 2006 07:58:43 -0700
<11************ **********@v46g 2000cwv.googleg roups.com>:

Roedy Green wrote:
However, I know C++ is not the best choice for many others. I know
from first hand, rather than second hand experience. For a start,
there is not even such an animal as a C++ Applet.
Holy crap, you people actually comming up with a can??!! Almost
anyway...I'll count it.

Took you long enough...damn!! !


I should point out that there *is* a C++ applet -- sort of.
It's the same as with C++ threading, an outside API. In the
case of the "applet" it's ActiveX.

This is not all that standard of course but ActiveX is widely
used internally in Microsoft software (it's not used on the Web,
for reasons related to security).
There is nothing
comparable to rich set of GUARANTEED PRESENT class libraries.


Of course there is something comparable. The whole second half of the
C++ standard specifies the GUARANTEED PRESENT class (and other object
type) libraries.
C++ is
hopeless at platform-independent code.


Not even remotely true.


The main problem with C++ is that the binaries are platform-dependent.
Java does not have this issue.

However, the C++ problem can be worked around by doing
something along the lines of Gentoo: build the binaries
locally. Whether this works or not for the individual
user depends on licensing and CPU speed. Distributing
multiple binary types and standardizing on a single platform
(which we're periously close to doing anyway, at least on
the user's deskop) are also possible.

Java has obfuscation ability which suggests conflicting masters.
But then code has conflicting masters anyway; it's a tradeoff
between loading/execution expediency and debuggability, among
other things. Some code also hides trade secrets, such as
license checking algorithms and/or private keys.

--
#191, ew****@earthlin k.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
Apr 28 '06 #186

TJW wrote:
Another totally unrelated ad hominem. You are obviously a very stupid
person. I base this on your method of argument, your inability to
argue effectively, your inability to comprehend simple statements, and
your overwhelming supply of idiotic assumptions that have nothing,
whatsoever, to do with the purported evidence.

...there is ample evidence in your own statements to support that you
are in fact an idiot.

Sometimes the threads started by the trolls end up the most
informative ...


You can come to any conclusion you want and provide whatever view you
wish people to see if you quote people out of context.

For example...the above (yes, I am taking liberty in my selection).
That was in reply to someone telling me I'm a fundamentalist religious
nut because my parents apparently are because my name is Noah. That is
an incredibly stupid statement to make (which was just one more in a
long line of incredibly stupid statements, generalizations , and ad
hominems) and had nothing to do with anything.

Everything in my reply fit, including the admision that the reply
itself was a personal attack that was not on topic...somethi ng you
neatly snipped from my post.

Your post is no more informed, balanced, or interesting than the
person's to whom that above quote replies to.

Apr 28 '06 #187
Andrew McDonagh wrote:
go Ruby ..Go Ruby...Go Ruby


Ruby:

- a cheap imitation of Smalltalk that stretches
too far, all the way to Perl. (And don't get
me started about Perl!)
- syntax crippled by an early design decision
to make parens on method calls () optional.
this has since been adjusted, leaving the
language whitespace-sensitive
- the require('module ') command dumps everything
into your module, even if you don't want it,
even if it causes a circular dependency
- if you name your class the same as some other
class, somewhere, then they become one class!
- a dynamic and interpreted model that makes
compiling and optimizing absolutely impossible
- permits a super-terse style that everyone
exploits to show off

Java:

- write once debug everywhere
- forgets everything on all its CLASSPATHs at
the drop of a hat
- projects must depend on fragile and
programmer-hostile tools, like ANT,
that make easy things hard and hard
things absurd
- impersonates the worst of C++ - typecasts
for simple containers, two different kinds
of type to store a stupid Integer, multiple
String classes, and last but least generics!
- arrays aren't really arrays. But they really
are. Kinda.
- static typing, to flatter Pascal with a vain
impersonation that, instead, forces you to
break typesafety just to get anything done
- everything must be inside a class. You can
still write object-disoriented crap, but at
least it's inside a class!
- pretends you broke something if your file
name differs from your class name. Figure
it out, stoopid!
- when a smart editor like Eclipse can finish
every line for you, it makes you wonder
what the language is _there_ for!
- adds keywords, like interface, based on
someone else's preconceived notion of good
design. Not keywords like 'virtual', based
on what the hardware will actually do
- comes with an advertising campaign capable
of making inexperienced programmers think
all this cruft is "lean and elegant".
- provides whole new categories of bugs, based
on zombie objects, non-deterministic
destructors, redundant finally blocks, all
under the excuse we are saving you from all
the C++ memory errors that a good standard
library implementation will save you from
anyway
- instead of providing a narrow and reasonable
implementation of multiple inheritance like
C++ (or an alternate "mixin" system like
Ruby) we instead get endless lectures,
endlessly repeated by newbies, about why
real programmers don't need multiple
inheritance of implementation
- at least C++ makes some of the benefits
of dynamic typing available. Java instead
enforces such a narrow view of static
typing that you can't even simulate
those benefits
- why the >F---< does Netbeans ask me where
the _same_ JAR files are, _each_ time I
launch it???
- a marketing campaign that teaches newbies
that a language is good if only smart
people can figure out how to use it
- GUIs require block closures and dynamic
typing. But what language does your boss
tell you to write the GUI in???

C++ (deep breath):
- where in memory do you want to
accidentally jump today?
- the only smart pointer that could pass
the 97 committee was one so primitive
and broken that its copy constructor
changes the copied-from object!
- mutable; because constancy is enforced
at compile time, not runtime, yet it
_could_ exploit hardware support
- strings, strings, and more strings. The
ISO Standard string came so late in the
language's history that every serious
library has its own (multiple) string
classes
- what the >F---< does imbue() do???
- void main is neither illegal nor legal!
Some, but not all, compiler-specific
extensions use a __ prefix
- of course RAII can be better than
redundant finally blocks. But _all_
these systems are cheap imitations
of the Execute Around Pattern, which
requires block closures, so objects
can clean themselves up, exception-
safely, deterministical ly, and
_without_ elaborate destructors
- the majority of the glitches and
common bugs when implementing code
in C++ happen because it's designed
to be efficiently compiled by a
simple compiler. A reinvented language
could make better use of modern
compiler technology
- teachers, bosses, and colleagues make
us use the language because it's
popular, even for inappropriate
situations. This newsgroup gets
a dozen questions per month asking
how to do something that a scripting
language can do
- you can do an "Applet" in C++ trivially,
using ActiveX. And because C++ has no
security model to speak of, anyone
using your applet exposes their browser
to gawd-knows-what-else is out there...
- how many here have _ever_ written a
program with _absolutely_ no undefined
behavior? How many _know_ they did??
- when folks say C++ is portable, they
mean the _compiler_ ports easily to
other platforms. By marrying your
statements to the metal, a C++
implementation forces you to
consider _endless_ portability issues
at port time
- the exception handling model is so
complex it makes me wonder if Bjarne
Stroustrup actually determined how to
write exception-safe programs when
he invented the language

--
Phlip
http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
Apr 28 '06 #188

"Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> wrote in message
news:11******** **************@ v46g2000cwv.goo glegroups.com.. .

Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
True leaks are just another level - they can appear only if JVM has a
heavy
bug.
Only JVM vendor should/can fix such bugs.
You can't fix JVM, you have to write SSCCE and send it to JVM vendor.


That is a pretty major can't but isn't so different I suppose than a
buggy compiler. However, a buggy compiler could theoretically be fixed
yourself if it is OS. On the other hand even fixing java on a single
platform involves cooperation from Sun does it not? I know there are
licensing issues I just don't know how controlling they are.


No, there's an open source JVM called SableVM. If you find a bug in
SableVM, you can modify it to fix the bug, without dealing with Sun as an
intermediate step. Note though that Sun owns the trademark "Java", and they
allow you to use the term "Java" with your products as long as your products
pass certain well defined tests. For example, if your product is supposed to
be a Java virtual machine, then it must adhere to the appropriate
specifications. SableVM does, so it is legally allowed to call itself a
"JVM". If you modify SableVM so that it doesn't adhere to the specs, then
you can't call your modified product a "JVM" anymore.

You would also necessarily have to get all your users to switch to your
fixed VM. Your fixed compiler just generates a now good executable you
can pass on.

That all depends on OS versions of the compilers and VMs involved...as
is the case in any other proprietery system if you don't have the
source you are at the mercy of the vendor...in other words fucked.


If there's a bug in a JVM which causes a memory leak, that's a bug in
the JVM, and not a bug in the Java Compiler. I guess the equivalent in C++
(or other languages) would be a bug in the OS (Operating System, not Open
Source). You write a C++ program which request the OS to allocate you some
memory, and then you later request for the OS to deallocate that memory. If
the OS doesn't deallocate that memory, then you're fucked.

If it's an open source OS (e.g. Linux), you could fix it, and then ask
all your users to switch their OSes. If it's a closed source one (e.g.
Windows), you could submit a bug report and hope for the best.

- Oliver

Apr 28 '06 #189
Noah Roberts schrieb:
Timo Stamm wrote:
Noah Roberts schrieb:
I write applets it is with Java, not Flash and certainly not C++. But
when I write cross-platform code that won't be running in a browser
most of the time I use C++, not Flash, and not Java (though sometimes I
think about that as an alternative). I must admit that I don't like most Java desktop apps. Swing just
doesn't feel like a native GUI. SWT is much better than Swing, but it
has disadvantages too.


My opinion is based more on the general clunkyness of the
implementations for my chosen OS. Java seems to work quite a bit
better on Windows than on Linux.


I doubt that the raw JVM performance changes much on different
platforms, but the GUI is obiously less snappy in Java apps than in
native applications, startup time is quite long, and memory requirements
are enormous.

C++ options for cross-platform
development (which are numerous) actually provide an end result that
is, in my opinion, a better all around solution that runs better on the
target platforms.
How do you define "runs better"? I use Java mostly for server
applications, and I can simply copy the war (Web Application aRchive)
from my PPC/OSX box to an Intel/Debian server. There are /zero/ platform
dependencies and performance is not an issue.

Sure, there might be a little more work but not much
really...


I am afraid it takes a lot of effort to make an application fit well on
more than one platform, but I am actually sure that you *can* get better
results.

If you need a secure, easy to distribute programm on as many platforms
as possible without much effort, java web start really shines.

Different requirements, different tools.
Timo
Apr 28 '06 #190

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