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On Java and C++

Java programmers seem to always be whining about how confusing and
overly complex C++ appears to them. I would like to introduce an
explanation for this. Is it possible that Java programmers simply
aren't smart enough to understand C++?

This is not merely a whimsical hypothesis. Given my experience with
Java programmers --- the code they write and the conversations they
have --- Occam's Razor points to this explanation. For example,

"Oooh I'm confused about the difference between pointers, references,
and objects! How confusing!"

"Oooh operator overloading confuses me! The expression x + y is so
confusing, who knows what's happening with that? If x and y are
complex numbers, what the hell could x + y mean?"

"Oooh multiple inheritance is so confusing! Though I am both a father
and a programmer, I still find it so confusing how the same object can
be two different things! How confusing!"

"Oooh and virtual bases are so bizarre! I am a student --- myself
'the father' is the same student as myself 'the programmer' --- but
nonetheless the idea of virtual bases is absolutely confounding and
confusing to me!"

Again, Occam's Razor is a valuable tool here. In deciding among
competing hypotheses, choose the simplest one. To impartial observers
of indoctrinated Java programmers, the explanation is simple indeed.

Apr 26 '06
458 21648

"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no > wrote in message
news:4b******** ****@individual .net...
* Roedy Green:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:19:40 +0200, "Alf P. Steinbach"
<al***@start.no > wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
Apart from the lack of connection from premise to conclusion, that's not
a fact, it's an excuse for sloppiness.
In java, memory leaks and packratting are quite different problems and
require quite different tools to detect them and quite different
solutions.


Exactly how can the memory leak that cannot exist, be detected and require
a different solution?


If Roedy had written "require quite different sets of tools and quite
different sets of solutions", would that have been better? Then you could
say that for problems which do not exist, the appropriate sets are the empty
sets.

Obviously, if one problem can occur, and another problem cannot occur,
then they must be different problems, which I believe was Roedy's main
point, even if he failed to express it properly.
If you wished, you could make the same distinction in C++, but you
don't because the distinction does not matter so much for C++.
On the contrary, in C++ it's meaningful to talk about different kinds of
memory leaks, such as when there's still a reference somewhere, what you
call a "packrat", and when there's no reference anywhere. If the case of
no reference couldn't exist, as in Java, then it would be meaningless to
distinguish it. That distinction is meaningless for Java.


(Ditto as above, I think what Roedy meant is clear, though he may have
not have expressed it in a way that you wanted).
there is no way on earth you will convince us that C++ memory
allocation is easier and more fool proof, especially when you don't
even claim to know Java.


I have not made the claims you assert. I don't believe that you talk on
behalf of "us", as you imply.


Maybe this is a psychological phenomena, but when I read "us", I had
assumed he was referring to "Java folks" (perhaps because I am one of those
Java folks). I think there's a lot of emotional energy here which may cause
us to say things we wish we hadn't (where we here is both Java folks and C++
folks). There's too much of an us-versus-them mentality going on, and it's
very easy for a Java person, posting from a Java newsgroup, to see an
unfamiliar name, and think "must be some C++ fanatic" and vice versa.
Perversely, I hope you're trolling.


If you go through the Google archives of comp.lang.java. programmer,
you'll see Roedy has a pretty good track record of being a helpful
contributor to the Java community. I don't suspect him of trolling. Rather,
I suspect these kind of threads bring out the worst in us.

- Oliver

Apr 28 '06 #161

Roedy Green wrote:
On 27 Apr 2006 10:59:36 -0700, "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : The big advantage of the Java approach is it FORCES you to write
cleaner code. Your name Noah, suggests you might be the son of fundamentalist
parents. Fundamentalists are people who are utterly convinced their
faith is the one true faith, and guarantee they never change their
opinion by scrupulously avoiding studying any others.


Another totally unrelated ad hominem. You are obviously a very stupid
person. I base this on your method of argument, your inability to
argue effectively, your inability to comprehend simple statements, and
your overwhelming supply of idiotic assumptions that have nothing,
whatsoever, to do with the purported evidence.

....there is ample evidence in your own statements to support that you
are in fact an idiot.

Interesting set in this last post of yours though...bring up Java's
nature to force you into doing something the way a set of people
decided where best and then call ME a fundamentalist - you have no
evidence to support that statement except the fact that there was a
famous and important Hebrew that shared my namesake but your own
statements lend some support to the argument that in fact you are very
likely a fundamentalist as well as a facist.

Irony can be a facinating thing.

Yes, this is also a personal attack having nothing to do with the
topic, however, instead of grasping at staws in an attempt to discredit
you based on assumed ansestry and upbringing I am simply pointing out
the fact that you already discredited yourself through your own words
and methods.

You loose, no question about it. Of course this has no bearing on the
usefulness of the Java language...it only means you are a piss poor
advocate of it and not a particularly intelligent or nice person.

Apr 28 '06 #162

Oliver Wong wrote:
"Alf P. Steinbach" <al***@start.no > wrote in message
news:4b******** ****@individual .net...
* Roedy Green:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:19:40 +0200, "Alf P. Steinbach"
<al***@start.no > wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

Apart from the lack of connection from premise to conclusion, that's not
a fact, it's an excuse for sloppiness.

In java, memory leaks and packratting are quite different problems and
require quite different tools to detect them and quite different
solutions.


Exactly how can the memory leak that cannot exist, be detected and require
a different solution?


If Roedy had written "require quite different sets of tools and quite
different sets of solutions", would that have been better? Then you could
say that for problems which do not exist, the appropriate sets are the empty
sets.

Obviously, if one problem can occur, and another problem cannot occur,
then they must be different problems, which I believe was Roedy's main
point, even if he failed to express it properly.


That is really grasping at straws. Using set theory to weed out a
meaning you like from a the rewording of a statement. If we were in
the middle of an argument about abstract math then maybe it would have
its place...but we are not.

Apr 28 '06 #163
"peter koch" <pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11******** **************@ e56g2000cwe.goo glegroups.com.. .

Very interesting post, Koch. I've snipped the parts I've agreed with, and am
only including some concerns I have about C++ and clarifications on Java.

I do not
understand why each class MUST have its own file (unless you make that
class a secondary citizen).
Actually, only the top level public classes should be in their own
files. Private classes, or nested classes, can be within any file. I suspect
the reason why is primarily a pragmatic one: So that the classloader can
easily locate the file that contains the bytecode for the classes and load
them.

It has some nice side effects. When I'm given someone else's code base,
and I have a qualified class name, I always immediately know the full path
to the source code file. I don't even have to browse a directory listing or
anything like that.

There are three kinds of lies. Lies, statistics and benchmarks.... or
so I've heard. The nice thing about C++ strings is that the number of
characters in a string is a O(1) operation. In Java, you would have to
check the number of surrogates making it a O(n) operation. Also C++
strings are more powerful than Java strings. All in all I believe I'd
prefer using C++ strings, switching to some specialised class in the
unlikely case string-handling did turn up to take a significand part of
my programs execution time.
I'm surprised unicode-stuff would appear as an advantage of C++ over
Java. I won't dispute this, since I don't know enough about the state of C++
libraries, but I was under the impression that the lowest common denominator
for C++ was ASCII, while the lowest common denominator for Java was the BMP
(Basic Multilingual Plane) portion of unicode.

I can't speak for others (e.g. archeologists, etc.), but I've never used
characters characters outside the BMP. For example, while I am interested in
writing text in English, French and Japanese, I am not interested in writing
in cuneiform, cypriot, or byzantinne musical notation. So I've never had a
problem with text in Java applications.

However, I have had problems with C++ applications which assumed ASCII.
WinAmp is one example. It has trouble handling the ID3 tags of my Japanese
songs. iTunes seems a bit better at this. *SOMETIMES* it properly renders
the kanji characters, but other times the track name will show up as a bunch
of question marks.

So I was under the impression that C++ support for unicode was behind
Java, not ahead of it. I guess times have changed.
Javas type system is not freedom but rather a jail. It has prevented
porting of Java to several platforms, it gives cumbersome Unicode
support and it forces Java to stick with inefficient 32-bit integers in
a world that is soon turning to 64 bits.


In its defense, I think the fact that the size of Java's primitive
datatypes remains constant is a "good thing". If an when you want to use a
64 bit datatype, you'd simply use "long" instead of "int". And I don't think
there's any technical reason why, in a few years from now, if 128 bit were
desired, a new datatype couldn't be added to Java to support that, without
breaking any previous code (except possibly via the addition of a new
keyword, which could no longer be used as a variable or method name).

The company I work at, Castor Technologies, makes some money by porting
C code from 32 bit platforms to 64 bit platforms. The fact that we're making
money must mean it's too painful for our clients to do the migration
themselves. I don't know if this C situation applies to C++ as well.

- Oliver

Apr 28 '06 #164

Mishagam wrote:
peter koch wrote:
Roedy Green wrote:
However, I know C++ is not the best choice for many others. I know
from first hand, rather than second hand experience. For a start,
there is not even such an animal as a C++ Applet. There is nothing
comparable to rich set of GUARANTEED PRESENT class libraries. C++ is
hopeless at platform-independent code.

I do agree that Java probably should be used for client side web-based
programming.
That said there is ATL which COM which is used extensively in those
area - resulting in platform dependent code, of course.

/Peter

If you are talking about IE ActiveX controls they were also responsible
for a lot of security breaches (I am not expert here), because C++ and
specifically ActiveX controls don't have Java Applets inherent security.


Yes, Applets have to be given to Java as something it can do that
current incarnations of C++ cannot. I do not know that this is
inherent to the language or more because of the way Java is normally
processed.

Also it must be mentioned that flash is also used quite a bit in this
area and in fact, in my opinion at least, results in better output.
Flash "applets" seem to work better on more platforms than Java. Hell,
at home where I use Linux I will use Flash but won't even bother with
installing the Java plugins because much of the time the applets just
don't function well.

However, flash is much more expensive for the devolper, who doesn't
even have to pay for the JDK but has to pay a fortune for flash. When
I write applets it is with Java, not Flash and certainly not C++. But
when I write cross-platform code that won't be running in a browser
most of the time I use C++, not Flash, and not Java (though sometimes I
think about that as an alternative).

Apr 28 '06 #165

"Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com> wrote in message
news:11******** **************@ e56g2000cwe.goo glegroups.com.. .

Oliver Wong wrote:
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


Ahhh yes, the last ditch attack from the weak. I grant you that it
appears to be a big gun as there is no way to argue against it...any
such attempt is of course also projecting. But only the unintelligent
cannot see it for what it is; I'll count you among them.


Taken in context, you wrote:

<quote>
It is clear you
don't have any good, and valid, arguments for you assertion that Java
is better than C++.
</quote>

and I wrote

<quote>
I don't think Roedy asserted that "Java is better than C++". See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
</quote>

Assuming that I am correct in thinking that Roedy did not make the
assertion you claim he made, what would you call your behaviour, if not
psychological projection?

Alternatively, perhaps he DID make that assertion somewhere, and I had
forgotten about it, or perhaps that particular message never arrived at my
newsgroup server. If so, I apologize for any offense I may have caused you
by suggesting that you might have been projecting.

I don't mind if you think I'm "weak" or "unintelligent" . My goal wasn't
to earn your praise, but rather to point out a possible source of the
apparent disagrement you're having with Roedy.

- Oliver

Apr 28 '06 #166

Luc The Perverse wrote:
You can't use 6th grade rhetoric to try to convince a group of people who
have been using Java for years that suddenly it "sucks" because you say so.


Quote me saying that.

Simple request...

You won't...because you can't...because I never said it.

Come back when you can understand.

Apr 28 '06 #167
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
In comp.lang.java. advocacy, peter koch

Not at all. RAII is to finally what a printing machine is to a pen.
RAII simplifies a nontrivial and tedious task. Or do you always check
for your objects being of the IDisposable type before deciding if you
can leave their destruction to the garbage collector or if you will
have to destroy them manually?
If not - how will your program cope with classes that change?
Also - how do you write generic code if you do not know if you will
have to destroy your objects - except than by using run-time
information?


How indeed? The best Java can do in that department is
a dispose() method (Swing) -- and that's not supported
in the language, unlike C++'s virtual destructor. finalize()
is overridable but it's never clear exactly when that will
be called.

I understand that RAII is basically use automatically called
destructor's to dispose resources? I agree it is useful where it can be
used.
It works if you work with objects as values, it doesn't work if you work
with pointers or references. In such cases destructor can easily leave
dangling pointer. If you work with references you are on your own, or
have to duplicate something like reference counting or Java GC. I don't
think you can work without using references in big program.
I think because of this STL mostly works (in examples) with value
elements, and this creates a lot of problems - you cannot place
descended class objects were you can place base objects, you have to
deal with constructors, destructor's, copy constructors called in
strange places, you waste memory and so on. Also, you have to have
different generated code for different objects and use templates. And in
Java one Collections library works OK with any object.
Apr 28 '06 #168
peter koch wrote:
I agree here. Readability matters a lot. And here C++ is a clear
winner, due to its more advanced features such as templates, operator
overloading and RAII,


You are joking, Right?
Apr 28 '06 #169

Bent C Dalager wrote:
In article <11************ *********@e56g2 000cwe.googlegr oups.com>,
Noah Roberts <ro**********@g mail.com> wrote:

I know all about that. Point is that it was asserted that C++ is not
as good as Java because Java binary code will run on some processors
but C++ source code won't.


That is an assertion that may exist inside your head, but you will not
actually find it in this thread.


Really? I guess you never said the following then:

"Interestin gly, of course, while there are no CPUs that support C++
instructions natively (that I know of anyway), there are those that
support Java bytecode natively. The conclusion being that while it is
possible to have a pure Java system, it is not possible to have a pure
C++ system :-) "

Now, that statement can only be talking about C++ source code as all
other forms of C++ come in the form of binary codes meant for execution
by a CPU or in the intermediate object form, also composed primarily of
CPU instructions but without enough total information to be a true
executable...so rt like pulling a Java .class file out of its package
and trying to run it.

At any rate, no matter how you slice it...the comparison is purposfully
scewed, being a compiled form on one hand and something other than a
complete compilation on the other...it's a red herring, and not a very
good one.

Apr 28 '06 #170

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