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On Java and C++

Java programmers seem to always be whining about how confusing and
overly complex C++ appears to them. I would like to introduce an
explanation for this. Is it possible that Java programmers simply
aren't smart enough to understand C++?

This is not merely a whimsical hypothesis. Given my experience with
Java programmers --- the code they write and the conversations they
have --- Occam's Razor points to this explanation. For example,

"Oooh I'm confused about the difference between pointers, references,
and objects! How confusing!"

"Oooh operator overloading confuses me! The expression x + y is so
confusing, who knows what's happening with that? If x and y are
complex numbers, what the hell could x + y mean?"

"Oooh multiple inheritance is so confusing! Though I am both a father
and a programmer, I still find it so confusing how the same object can
be two different things! How confusing!"

"Oooh and virtual bases are so bizarre! I am a student --- myself
'the father' is the same student as myself 'the programmer' --- but
nonetheless the idea of virtual bases is absolutely confounding and
confusing to me!"

Again, Occam's Razor is a valuable tool here. In deciding among
competing hypotheses, choose the simplest one. To impartial observers
of indoctrinated Java programmers, the explanation is simple indeed.

Apr 26 '06
458 21637

Roedy Green skrev:
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:37:37 GMT, "Oliver Wong" <ow***@castorte ch.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
So how about instead of characterizing a language as being universally
hard or universally bad, we just accept that some people find it difficult
to program in C++, and so C++ is not the language for them? Similarly, maybe
some people find it difficult to program in Java, and so Java is not the
language for those people.
I would be happy with that if people making the comments had working
knowledge of both before pontificating. It seem the people with the
strongest opinions have experience in primarily one language. We are
hearing the breast beatings similar to those about the best hockey or
basketball team, rather than a dispassionate comparison of features.

It further seems these fights could be turned into contests where
teams use their favoured language. The idea is to do the work in the
fewest man hours and have the fastest least resource hungry result.
You would also have a maintainability challenge, X hours to change the
program to do something different. You could get some hard data to
compare.


The one I know with expertise in both systems - James Kanze - believes
C++ to be the best and fastest language for software development. But
then he has very high standards for his software.

/Peter --
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.


Apr 27 '06 #101
On 27 Apr 2006 15:24:59 -0700, "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
Hey, my CPU will run C++ byte code natively but there are no CPU's that
run Java source code...guess Java sucks then.


There are machines that run Java bytes codes directly. But even such
machines have some microcode or other assembler assists to handle the
lowest levels. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/picojava.html

There is no equivalent to byte code in C++ that you as programmer see,
though there may be an intermediate triple form internal to the
compiler using during optimisation. In C++ you compile straight to
platform machine code. In Java you compile to a virtual machine, as
sort of idealized Java CPU similar to a FORTH stack machine. From
then it can be interpreted, JITed, HotSpotted, statically compiled
etc. Code is usually distributed in byte code format, often called
class file format or jars. The byte code format is
platform-independent. The platform independencies are handled by a
platform-specific JVM (a program written usually in C++) and set of
standard class libraries.

See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/compiler.html
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jvm.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
Apr 27 '06 #102
In article <11************ *********@g10g2 000cwb.googlegr oups.com>,
peter koch <pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote:


Large parts of the C++ libraries are implemented in C++.


This is also the case with Java. Even the Java compiler is implemented
in Java.
Interestingly, of course, while there are no CPUs that support C++
instructions natively (that I know of anyway), there are those that
support Java bytecode natively. The conclusion being that while it is
possible to have a pure Java system, it is not possible to have a pure
C++ system :-)

I do not understand that one - are you trying to put a joke on me - or
do you propose that Java should run only on processors supporting
byte-code? ;-)


It's just an observation. Since Java always compiles to one specific
instruction set that can be implemented in hardware with relative
ease, it doesn't need to rely on non-Java components at all.

You could still make it perform differently on different platforms but
I am not sure why that is important at all.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bc*@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
Apr 27 '06 #103
On 27 Apr 2006 12:31:12 -0700, "peter koch"
<pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :
This is ridiculous - like claiming you only know to drive a car with
automatic shifts because manual shifts are all to difficult. I do not
know what gear to use!


come on. There are alternate notations that generate the same
assembler code. That is a legacy wart, not a feature.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
Apr 27 '06 #104
In article <11************ **********@v46g 2000cwv.googleg roups.com>,
peter koch <pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote:


This is playing wordgames. I don't care if it is what is in Java-speak
called a memory leak or pack-ratting. The fact is that you have to do
some "resource management" stuff to avoid memory usage increasing ad
infinitum. And this is not theoretical. If I remember correctly this
behaviour was found in a released official Java-library.
Swing is rather notorious for this. If you don't remember to call
"dispose()" on your GUI windows when you are done with them, they may
decide to stick around indefinately. This then also prevents the GC
from collecting everything that is referenced within the window, which
can be a lot.
So Java is not
just "allocate and forget" even when it comes down to "pure" memory.
Again the advantage is with C++.


Depends a bit on what you mean by "pure" memory, but that is probably
too academic a debate to get into.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bc*@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
Apr 27 '06 #105

Roedy Green wrote:
On 27 Apr 2006 15:24:59 -0700, "Noah Roberts" <ro**********@g mail.com>
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
Hey, my CPU will run C++ byte code natively but there are no CPU's that
run Java source code...guess Java sucks then.


There are machines that run Java bytes codes directly. But even such
machines have some microcode or other assembler assists to handle the
lowest levels. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/picojava.html

[blah blah blah JVM blah blah]


I know all about that. Point is that it was asserted that C++ is not
as good as Java because Java binary code will run on some processors
but C++ source code won't. This is just stupid...almost as stupid as
me having to point this out to you.

I definately hear a vacuum...

Apr 27 '06 #106
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:48:59 +0100, Andrew McDonagh <ne**@andmc.com >
wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
go Ruby ..Go Ruby...Go Ruby

“I always knew one day Smalltalk would replace Java. I just didn’t know
it would be called Ruby." -- Kent Beck


My ex boss, (one of the cleverest guys I have ever run into) has gone
gung ho on Ruby. I did some work documenting it. It has much of the
appeal of Python, not making you ramble on for pages telling the
compiler things it can figure out on its own, but on the other hand,
it seems a lot harder to figure out what a program is doing without
all the embedded type clues.

I wonder if someday we will have a language that lets you write like
Ruby, but that does all kinds of inferencing to tell you additional
info like types, potential bounds etc. but only when you want to see
it.

--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
Apr 27 '06 #107
On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:42:21 +0000 (UTC), bc*@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
Java-based CPUs for desktops have been tried I think, but it didn't
take off.

they ran too hot.

But there are all kinds of tiny CPUs that run JVM byte code directly
(or more precisely in microcode).

This approach saves a lot of RAM. You don't need room for a JIT,
machine code, JITED machine code etc. All you have is nice compact
byte code.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
Apr 27 '06 #108

On 27 Apr 2006 12:45:27 -0700, "peter koch"
<pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

That is simply false - and most probably a bloody lie. About on par
with the other posts I've seen from you. Others might want to have a
look at


Have you read the book? Were in there on BIX when Stroustrup dropped
by for a month or two?
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
Apr 27 '06 #109
peter koch <pe************ ***@gmail.com> wrote:
There are two questions being considered simultaneously here. One is
what is required to produce useful software in a language. The other
matter is what is required to understand that language. I side with the
position that a language that's hard to understand has a weakness in
this even if it remains possible to write software using that language.
I agree here. Readability matters a lot. And here C++ is a clear
winner, due to its more advanced features such as templates, operator
overloading and RAII,


You seem to have missed the point... whether intentionally or otherwise,
I don't know. I am referring to how quickly the language can be
understood; not how quickly software written in the language can be
understood.

Nevertheless, since we're now talking about it:
// C++
func()
{
class_with_poss ible_ressource cwpr;
dosomethingwith (cwpr);
}
// Java

void func()
{
ClassWithPossib leResource cwpr = new ClassWithPossib leResource();

try
{
doSomethingWith (cwpr);
}
finally
{
cwpr.dispose();
}
}

I don't know where you got the so-called Java code you posted. Whoever
gave it to you, don't accept their Java code any longer. Corrections
aside from syntax and naming conventions include:

1. A constructor would throw an exception if initialization failed, so
there is no need to check for that situation.

2. There is no need to catch exceptions within the finally block. If
the call to the clean-up method (e.g., dispose) fails, then an exception
will be thrown, which is what you wanted anyway. Although some people
may choose to be picky about which of the two exceptions they wish to
see in case doSomethingWith also failed, the C++ code doesn't handle
that any better, so it's rather irrelevant here.

3. Removed the cast to an interface before calling dispose. Upcasting
of references is always dispensible in situations like this. It appears
to have been added for no other reason than to make the Java code look
longer and uglier. Actually, come to think of it, most of the code that
was posted appears to have been added for that reason.
Four simple lines of C++ becomes 21 lines of complex and convoluted
Java-code.
Not sure how you're counting. Nevertheless, the C++ code is clearly a
little bit shorter, since the Java code needs to make cleanup explicit.
So the Java func above is as easy to understand as the C++-one?? Come
on - you do not really mean that.
No I don't mean that. See above.
Also you have a huge problem writing
generic code in Java .... those ugly and presumably costly runtime
checks have to be made all the time.


How is that relevant? Or is this just becoming a gripe list about
languages, which you obviously don't understand to begin with?

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
Apr 28 '06 #110

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