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Need suggestions for C links.

List,

I'm looking for C links for Standard C for a website targeting
professional SW engineers. Intent is to have a convenient reference to
Standard C, particularly for those who come from backgrounds with a good
bit of specialized extensions.

I've plenty of Standards for my industry--a subset of embedded systems
work, but I need more good, "Standard, no extensions" links, as
increasingly in the embedded world standards dictate just that.

I already have:

--The c.l.c FAQ
--The c.l.c IFAQ
--http://www-ccs.ucsd.edu/c/ From what I've seen so far, this is a good
Standard reference, though I've not read it exhaustively.

I don't need "How to Program" nor "C Tutorial" links. Everyone reading
"knows C", but there's a wide variety of backgrounds coming into the
embedded world. Window? What's a window? Text? Those words are
strange to me....

Two things I need are an authoritative printf()-family reference.
Though it's often banned in production code, it's common in debugging,
along with "No Warnings Allowed", so it's important to get the details
right.

The other thing I consider a "Need" is an authoritative operator
precedence chart. There are a number around, and I'm not quite certain
whether any is better than copying K&Rs to a web table, apart from a
general dislike of coding HTML...

Aside from those two items, I'm after anything that can help a herd of
cats . .er . . . variety of C programmers from different backgrounds get
on the "Standard" page.

Thanx

Feb 26 '06
85 3775
In article <pa************ *************** *@dodo.com.au>, Netocrat
<ne******@dodo. com.au> writes
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:31:27 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
In article <pa************ *************** *@dodo.com.au>, Netocrat
<ne******@dodo. com.au> writes
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:48:36 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
In article <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g>, Keith Thompson <kst-
u@mib.org> writes
[...]
>You can get a PDF copy of the C standard for about $18 (I think the FAQ
>has links). Or you can get a free copy of n1124.pdf (Google it), which
>incorporat es the entire C99 standard plus TC1 and TC1.
>
>That's assuming you want C99. I think you can also find drafts of the
>C89/C90 standard; I'm not certain that the C90 standard itself is still
>availabl e.

It is but only in hard copy at around 30 GAP or 50 US.

It's also listed for soft copy purchase as a foreign-ratified Standard
in a few places, some collected on the wiki at:
<http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Basics_Of_The_C _Standard#Obtai ning_the_Standa rd>.

I don't know whether any of those sources are actually "in stock", but if
not, their websites are out of date.

I stock the hard copy version


Oh, I didn't twig from your previous post that you actually sell it.


Hi,

I *used to* sell it. It appears that all I was doing was using up BSI's
old stock. There is no stock left :-(

The only other version they have is 90+ GBP!!!! Around 150 USD. Not
good.

I am working on a different solution for reintroducing C90+A1+the TC's
at a sensible price of 20-30 GBP (around 30-50 USD)

Unfortunately there are no electronic versions... well that is not
strictly true. The one I have is over 28megabytes as each page was
scanned in as a tiff and is a graphic. Not easy to cut and past or
search :-(
Do
you have a link that could be added to the wiki page? I searched
through your site a bit without turning one up, bar an invitation to
email you for a copy in your column vol 11.7.
That was some time ago :-( A pity BSI can't get any more.
I also noticed that in that column you mention the decline of compiler
certificatio n due to expensiveness. There's recently been suggestion in
c.s.c that a test suite for compilers be part of the C Standard as it is
for Ada's Standard, to avoid the perceived meaninglessness of the "one
program" requirement of 5.2.4 - is that something you'd advocate?


Not at all. There is a hell of a lot more to it than just a test suite
and test suites are very expensive to do properly. The Ada one was paid
fro AFAIK by the US government (who don't have to show a profit on it)

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Mar 4 '06 #61
Chris Hills wrote:
[...] Hi,

I *used to* sell it. It appears that all I was doing was using up
BSI's old stock. There is no stock left :-(

The only other version they have is 90+ GBP!!!! Around 150 USD. Not
good.

I am working on a different solution for reintroducing C90+A1+the
TC's at a sensible price of 20-30 GBP (around 30-50 USD)

Unfortunately there are no electronic versions... well that is not
strictly true. The one I have is over 28megabytes as each page was
scanned in as a tiff and is a graphic. Not easy to cut and past or
search :-(


If that is the same version that I have a copy of it actually has both
the tiffs and the text but with the text hidden. But that version is
only 13Mb.It is possible to search or cut and paste it.

Kevin.
Mar 4 '06 #62
On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:57 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
[...]
Hi,

I *used to* sell [the hardcopy C90 version of the Standard]. It appears
that all I was doing was using up BSI's old stock. There is no stock
left :-(

The only other version they have is 90+ GBP!!!! Around 150 USD. Not
good.

I am working on a different solution for reintroducing C90+A1+the TC's
at a sensible price of 20-30 GBP (around 30-50 USD)

Unfortunately there are no electronic versions... well that is not
strictly true. The one I have is over 28megabytes as each page was
scanned in as a tiff and is a graphic. Not easy to cut and past or
search :-(


It's ironic then that C90 is apparently available through ANSI as
EN 29899:1993 - in soft-copy. It's listed there as an 8.34Mb download, so
it seems more likely to be in a searchable and navigable format such as
pdf. It's quite a bit more expensive than any of the options you've
listed above, although some of the other links collected on the wiki page
that I posted previously are more reasonable (the deal you're working
towards would be the best of the lot).

Incidentally, amendment 1 is also listed as available in soft-copy through
ANSI's store as EN 29899:1993/A1:1996; I haven't checked the availability
of the TCs on that site but they are available in soft-copy elsewhere.

[...]
I also noticed that in that column you mention the decline of compiler
certificati on due to expensiveness. There's recently been suggestion in
c.s.c that a test suite for compilers be part of the C Standard as it is
for Ada's Standard, to avoid the perceived meaninglessness of the "one
program" requirement of 5.2.4 - is that something you'd advocate?


Not at all. There is a hell of a lot more to it than just a test suite
and test suites are very expensive to do properly. The Ada one was paid
fro AFAIK by the US government (who don't have to show a profit on it)


When you write that there's a lot more to "it" than a test suite, which
perspective are you coming from - embedded or in general?

--
http://members.dodo.com.au/~netocrat
Mar 4 '06 #63
On 4 Mar 2006 01:37:59 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Jordan Abel
<ra*******@gmai l.com> wrote:
On 2006-03-03, Mark McIntyre <ma**********@s pamcop.net> wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:48:14 -0500, in comp.lang.c , CBFalconer
<cb********@yah oo.com> wrote:
Properly constructed HTML adapts to the output page (or screen)
size,


This is actually VERY undesirable in any formal document. You do NOT
want pages reflowing, diagrams and tables being orphaned, weird
linebreaks or pagebreaks appearing, etc etc when you print them. You
want them to appear EXACTLY as you laid them out. Trust me on this.


A parallel html version would be nice for the uses that _don't_ involve
printing, though. Maybe a multi-file version like most html
documentatio n using docbook or info2html or anything else uses.


I hesitate to point out that it took me around ten mins to generate an
html version, though admittedly the formatting was curious. I guess
ISO didn't want to pay to have it re-typeset more accurately.

And for those wanting plain-text, its worth noting that Acrobat 7.07
actually has an option to save in that format.

And we think we're good with computers... :-)
Mark McIntyre
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Mar 4 '06 #64
On 2006-03-04, Netocrat <ne******@dodo. com.au> wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:57 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
Not at all. There is a hell of a lot more to it than just a test suite
and test suites are very expensive to do properly. The Ada one was paid
fro AFAIK by the US government (who don't have to show a profit on it)


When you write that there's a lot more to "it" than a test suite, which
perspective are you coming from - embedded or in general?


It's a lot easier, I'm sure, to write a test suite to prove an
implementation incorrect than to prove it correct. The question is
whether this is worth doing.

Also, a test suite could not easily be automated, since, what are you
going to write it in, Standard C? So you're left with feeding the
programs in and examining the output by hand.
Mar 4 '06 #65
In article <je************ *************** *****@4ax.com>, Mark McIntyre
<ma**********@s pamcop.net> writes
On 4 Mar 2006 01:37:59 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Jordan Abel
<ra*******@gma il.com> wrote:

I hesitate to point out that it took me around ten mins to generate an
html version, though admittedly the formatting was curious. I guess
ISO didn't want to pay to have it re-typeset more accurately.
ISO are not expecting people to turn it into HTML.
And for those wanting plain-text, its worth noting that Acrobat 7.07
actually has an option to save in that format.


only if the PDF file has the security set to permit it.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Mar 4 '06 #66
Jordan Abel <ra*******@gmai l.com> writes:
On 2006-03-04, Netocrat <ne******@dodo. com.au> wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:57 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
Not at all. There is a hell of a lot more to it than just a test suite
and test suites are very expensive to do properly. The Ada one was paid
fro AFAIK by the US government (who don't have to show a profit on it)
When you write that there's a lot more to "it" than a test suite, which
perspective are you coming from - embedded or in general?


It's a lot easier, I'm sure, to write a test suite to prove an
implementation incorrect than to prove it correct. The question is
whether this is worth doing.


I suspect it's impossible to write a test suite to prove an
implementation correct.

Based on my experience with Ada, having a de-facto standard and freely
available test suite is extremely valuable. Of course developing it
would be expensive. Then again, developing a working C implementation
is also expensive, and a number of those are freely available. On the
other other other hand, it's probably harder to find skilled people
willing to donate their time developing a test suite than to find
people willing to develop a compiler. As a practical matter,
*someone* would have to pay for it (in time or money).

I encourage someone else to invest the time and money to develop this
so I can sit back, be lazy, and reap the benefits without doing any of
the work.
Also, a test suite could not easily be automated, since, what are you
going to write it in, Standard C? So you're left with feeding the
programs in and examining the output by hand.


The tests themselves would be in standard C. There's no good portable
way to invoke a C compiler in standard C, though I suppose with
judicious use of system() and a configuration file you might throw
something together. But developing a (system-specific) framework to
invoke the tests and check their output wouldn't be too difficult. If
the tests are properly written, there's no need to manually run the
tests or examine the output.

The Ada validation test suite (formerly called ACVC, now called ACATS)
contains three classes of tests. Some are just required to compile
without error (warnings are ok). Some contain deliberate errors that
the compiler is required to detect, and are required *not* to compile
(Ada has stricter rules than C about programs with errors). And some
are required to compile and execute correctly. Each test in the last
category checks internally for the correct behavior, and prints a
formatted "PASSED" or "FAILED" message as its last line of output; the
test passes if and only if the "PASSED" line appears.

Anyone interested in doing something like this for C should take a
look at <http://www.ada-auth.org/acats.html>.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Mar 4 '06 #67
Chris Hills <ch***@phaedsys .org> writes:
[...]
Unfortunately there are no electronic versions... well that is not
strictly true. The one I have is over 28megabytes as each page was
scanned in as a tiff and is a graphic. Not easy to cut and past or
search :-(


(Referring to the C89/C90 standard.)

I have an electronic copy of the C90 standard. I paid $18 to NA for
it. It looks like it was scanned from a paper document, but it is
possible to search and copy-and-paste from it -- but the result of
copy-and-pasting often has small errors. Apparently somebody ran some
kind of optical character recognition on the scanned copy.

For example, here's a copy-and-paste from the document (reformatted
for line length but

In a freestanding environment (in which C program execution may
take place without any benetit of an operating system), the name
and type of the function called at program startup are
implementation-detined There are otherwise no reserved external
identitiers. Any library tacilities available to a freestanding
propram are implementation-defined.
Note the misspellings "detined", "identitier s", and "tacilities , and
the missing '.' after the first sentence, all things visually similar
to the correct text.

The file size is 13624364 bytes 13 MBytes); the name is
"ansi+iso+9 899-1990+(r1997).pd f". I don't know whether it's still
available.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Mar 4 '06 #68
In article <ln************ @nuthaus.mib.or g>, Keith Thompson <kst-
u@mib.org> writes
Jordan Abel <ra*******@gmai l.com> writes:
On 2006-03-04, Netocrat <ne******@dodo. com.au> wrote:
On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:57 +0000, Chris Hills wrote:
Not at all. There is a hell of a lot more to it than just a test suite
and test suites are very expensive to do properly. The Ada one was paid
fro AFAIK by the US government (who don't have to show a profit on it)

When you write that there's a lot more to "it" than a test suite, which
perspective are you coming from - embedded or in general?
It's a lot easier, I'm sure, to write a test suite to prove an
implementation incorrect than to prove it correct. The question is
whether this is worth doing.


I suspect it's impossible to write a test suite to prove an
implementati on correct.


Define correct
Based on my experience with Ada, having a de-facto standard and freely
available test suite is extremely valuable. Of course developing it
would be expensive.
it was VERY expensive but the US government paid for it.
Then again, developing a working C implementation
is also expensive, and a number of those are freely available.
There is a vast difference between developing a C implementation and
doing a validation suite. In any event several exist but they are VERY
expensive.
On the
other other other hand, it's probably harder to find skilled people
willing to donate their time developing a test suite than to find
people willing to develop a compiler. As a practical matter,
*someone* would have to pay for it (in time or money).
exactly there is no such thing as a free lunch. Also there is a LOT more
to it than the time developing. AFAIK the people who currently do
validations suites are also major players on the ISO C panels and have
been for some time....

Look to a minimum of 5 days a year national meetings and 10 days a year
on the international meetings. At least one block of 5 days will be in
Europe or Australia etc. SO there is a lot of time (and travel)
involved there apart from the continual email discussions....

SO that is about three weeks working on standards (half of which are
abroad) before you start to write the validation suite.

Still it saves you having to spend 18USD on a PDF for the standard :-)
I encourage someone else to invest the time and money to develop this
so I can sit back, be lazy, and reap the benefits without doing any of
the work.
Plum Hall and Perennial have already done it.... ask them for a free
copy :-)
Also, a test suite could not easily be automated, since, what are you
going to write it in, Standard C? So you're left with feeding the
programs in and examining the output by hand.
The tests themselves would be in standard C.


So all the compilers will fail. 100% of them miss something out of C99
and 100% of them have extensions.
There's no good portable
way to invoke a C compiler in standard C, though I suppose with
judicious use of system()
!!!! System!??? that is a bad starting point!
and a configuration file you might throw
something together. But developing a (system-specific) framework to
invoke the tests and check their output wouldn't be too difficult. If
the tests are properly written, there's no need to manually run the
tests or examine the output.
A lot of ifs (and hard work) there....

The Ada validation test suite (formerly called ACVC, now called ACATS)
contains three classes of tests. Some are just required to compile
without error (warnings are ok). Some contain deliberate errors that
the compiler is required to detect, and are required *not* to compile
(Ada has stricter rules than C about programs with errors). And some
are required to compile and execute correctly. Each test in the last
category checks internally for the correct behavior, and prints a
formatted "PASSED" or "FAILED" message as its last line of output; the
test passes if and only if the "PASSED" line appears.

Anyone interested in doing something like this for C should take a
look at <http://www.ada-auth.org/acats.html>.


Also ask the US government how many man hours it took to do the Ada
one....

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ ch***@phaedsys. org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Mar 5 '06 #69
[attributions unwrapped]
Chris Hills writes:
Keith Thompson <ks***@mib.or g> writes
Jordan Abel <ra*******@gmai l.com> writes: [...]
It's a lot easier, I'm sure, to write a test suite to prove an
implementation incorrect than to prove it correct. The question is
whether this is worth doing.

You mean "it's a lot easier to prove a flawed implementation incorrect
than to prove a compliant implementation correct", right? By a strict
reading your statement is untrue for implementations that are correct.
I suspect it's impossible to write a test suite to prove an
implementatio n correct.
It can be hard enough disproving an incorrect implementation if the flaw
is esoteric and unknown prior to testing.
Define correct
I brought this up as a possible remedy to the perceived meaninglessness of
the "one program" requirement of 5.2.4, so in that context "correct" would
mean "properly compiles programs within the limitations expected by the
Standard". The expectations of that section are vague enough that the
tests would effectively be defining them.

The counter argument seems to be that "this is a QOI issue" and any
implementation that rorts the one program requirement is going to be so
poor that no one will use it regardless of whether it can otherwise claim
compliance, so standardised tests to further define the requirements are
unnecessary.
Based on my experience with Ada, having a de-facto standard and freely
available test suite is extremely valuable.
A standardised full test suite for C along the lines of Ada's could go
further than more strictly defining 5.2.4, into things such as validating
syntax parsing, type conversions, diagnostics, operator and standard
library behaviour, etc (possibly even QOI issues).

It could as you write be valuable - as an aid to both implementors and
programmers in interpreting the Standard; OTOH beyond 5.2.4 this implies
redundant specification - i.e. normative text and test suite code - which
may be opposed to the Standard's aims.
Of course developing it would be expensive [and] it's probably harder to
find skilled people willing to donate their time developing a test suite
than to find people willing to develop a compiler. As a practical
matter, *someone* would have to pay for it (in time or money).


exactly there is no such thing as a free lunch. Also there is a LOT more
to it than the time developing. AFAIK the people who currently do
validations suites are also major players on the ISO C panels and have
been for some time [...] SO that is about three weeks working on
standards (half of which are abroad) before you start to write the
validation suite.


You seem to be suggesting that a suite written for inclusion by someone(s)
not directly involved in the Standard would be ill-received by WG14. If
that's the case, surely sponsored (by oversight not money) development
would be possible.

[...]
The tests themselves would be in standard C.


So all the compilers will fail. 100% of them miss something out of C99


There are a few that claim C99 compliance, are you certain that 100% of
compilers miss something?
and 100% of them have extensions.


Extensions aren't disallowed by the Standard though, so long as portable
programs compile correctly in standards mode.
There's no good portable
way to invoke a C compiler in standard C, though I suppose with
judicious use of system()


!!!! System!??? that is a bad starting point!


For freestanding implementations it wouldn't always be available, but
given a reasonable config file it seems a workable approach on hosted
implementations .
and a configuration file you might throw something together. But
developing a (system-specific) framework to invoke the tests and check
their output wouldn't be too difficult. If the tests are properly
written, there's no need to manually run the tests or examine the
output.


A lot of ifs (and hard work) there....


It's not impossible though. Are you otherwise philosophically opposed?
e.g. "C and its Standard are minimalist and a standardised test suite is
excessive".

[...]
--
http://members.dodo.com.au/~netocrat
Mar 5 '06 #70

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Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
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agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
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by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
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6081
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?
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by: 6302768590 | last post by:
Hai team i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
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bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

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