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Topic Nazis (OR Mystery: static variables & performance)

MSG
Michel Bardiaux <mi************ *@peaktime.be> wrote in message news:<G4******* *************@g iganews.com>...
Mark Shelor wrote:

OK, Sidney, I am considering it. I can certainly understand the premise
that a group might choose to entertain ONLY those questions that can be
resolved purely by a reading or clarification of (drum roll please) The
Standard. But how utterly boring, and what a waste of talent. It
reduces the newgroups participants to a mere gaggle of lawyers.


I agree 100% with you.


Mark Shelor's question was off-topic, but not for the reasons
mentioned.

To interface C and Perl, it is necessary to *call* functions. The
standard however does not define the stack size, so the behavior of
any function that calls another function is undefined, and therefore
we can not discuss it here. QED.

Yeah, sure. You can predict the behavior of function calls *if* the
stack is known to be big enough, but by the same logic, you can
predict a lot of things if some extras are known. Well, they ain't.
Not in The Standard!

So, read my lips: no...function.. .calls!

We can only discuss things that are happening entirely inside
"main()". Everything else ist verboten!

Heil...
MSG
Nov 14 '05
109 4218
Alan Balmer <al******@att.n et> spoke thus:
Possible, I suppose, or possibly Seinfeld fans are a special class
<g>. BTW, I did watch an entire episode once. I never heard the term
"Soup Nazi" until now, though. Must have watched the wrong episode.
Considering I've never seen it, I'm just going on hearsay. It
wouldn't be the first time I taste shoe rubber... ;(
I know that "gypped" is supposedly a reference to Gypsy business
practices ;-) I suppose the theory is that "jerryrigge d" refers to
Germans? I doubt that's accurate - I think the consensus is that it
(and jerry-built) came from the old naval term "jury-built", referring
to a makeshift contrivance, as in "jury-mast."


....and speaking of shoe rubber, a tasty byte [sic] right here. The
consensus according to dictionary.com is that you are correct.
To put it succinctly, "D'oh!" (Although dictionary.com at least
supports my statement about "gypped.")

--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
Nov 14 '05 #51
Alan Balmer wrote:

Possible, I suppose, or possibly Seinfeld fans are a special class
<g>. BTW, I did watch an entire episode once. I never heard the term
"Soup Nazi" until now, though. Must have watched the wrong episode.


Was just one episode as far as I know. A veru good one in fact.

"No soup for you!"

--
Thomas.

Nov 14 '05 #52
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:33 +0000, the right honourable Thomas Stegen
CES2000 <ts************ @cis.strath.ac. uk> wrote:
Erik wrote:

I sort of have promised myself to not participate in these threads,
but I feel I cannot let this one go by.

Yes, and nothing has changed much since.
C is still a religion rather than a production tool, to many.
As such, we can recognize religious fundamentalism.
That someone chooses not to discuss certain issues here which
are somewhat related to C programming does not mean they do not
discuss it or even use it somewhere else.

Context serves as a limiting factor you know. If someone asks
how to turn up gcc to maximimum warning level I choose not to
answer even though I know how to do this. Because you see,
this is a mechanism I (and several others) use to keep this
group maximimally useful. It is called focus, as it is now I find
that I either find something interesting and educational or I
already know it and can perform quality control on the material.


and it's the only mechanism there is for unmoderated newsgroups.
Foul language is not, calling names is not.

Regulars here have found the path to take to make the group
more useful to them, why should they give way to whining newbies
who wants to make it less useful? Out of kindness of their hearts?
Internet, Usenet, comp.lang.c, is not only for "regulars".
It's for anybody with a connection to the net. You pay your ISP for
that.
It's even for people who just need a quick answer, and have no time to
first follow a group for weeks, before daring to pose a question.
If one doesn't like that, one sets up a moderated group.
I don't think so. No matter what you think, there are exceedingly
few people on usenet who are only after giving away free help to
others, if there is no gain for someone they will leave.

You get what you pay for they say and they say you pay nothing
on usenet. That is wrong, we buy knowledge and ideas with knowledge
and ideas.
No. in buying and selling there is enforceable obligation. Not so on
the net.
If you don't pay for your groceries, someone will feel cheated.
On Usenet, I can't think of a situation is which I would feel cheated.
By keeping this group focused I have more to pay with
and can so buy more.


The value of Usenet does not go down with questions that are
off-topic. The very mechanism of ignoring will filter and regulate.
I can't expect a solution to my bicycle problem on comp.lang.c, can I
?
Think of what happens when you go off-topic in a face to face meeting:
people look at you and kindly tell you they were talking about
something else and you say "oops, sorry", and you walk on.
On comp.lang.c things go differently. The lack of identity causes
people to become incredibly rude and uncivilised. They are like the
nice daddy, who becomes a monster once enclosed by steel and
smoke-glass windows of his Ferrari, invisible, unknown.

Imagine some of the conversations here on Usenet taking place in real
life !

comp.lang.c is not the only group where this happens, to be fair...
And no, I do not have the illusion, these attitudes will ever change.
There is a beast in all of us...
fr gr
Erik
Nov 14 '05 #53
Erik <et57 at correos calor dot com> spoke thus:
and it's the only mechanism there is for unmoderated newsgroups.
Foul language is not, calling names is not.
Depends on the newsgroup - those activities are expected on
alt.flame, for example. Here, of course, they are the mark of a
heathen.
It's even for people who just need a quick answer, and have no time to
first follow a group for weeks, before daring to pose a question.
If one doesn't like that, one sets up a moderated group.
Except for clueless first-time-touching-a-newsreader newbies, there's
really no excuse for not doing the minimum - look for the group's FAQ
or charter and read existing posts. If all posters to comp.lang.c did
as much, no post would ever be labelled offtopic.
On comp.lang.c things go differently. The lack of identity causes
people to become incredibly rude and uncivilised. They are like the
nice daddy, who becomes a monster once enclosed by steel and
smoke-glass windows of his Ferrari, invisible, unknown.


With few exceptions, most of the off-topic redirects are quite
courteous and polite. I wouldn't even call Dan "incredibly rude and
uncivilized" - blunt, perhaps, but not uncivilized. You want
uncivilized, read alt.flame.

--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
Nov 14 '05 #54
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:52:01 -0600, the right honourable Morris Dovey
<mr*****@iedu.c om> wrote:
Erik wrote:
A problem with the internet is one of identity. We do not know the
regulars, never seen them, never heard them, never met them.
I have great difficulty in trusting unseen people on the net.
Especially trusting them with any power to decide...etc.
Erik...

You can see my ugly face and read a brief work history at
http://www.iedu.com/mrd/mrd_self.html. You can do a Google groups
search on my name or that of any of the regulars to at least
acquire a notion as to participation in this ng - and you can
review the archived posts of anyone who has posted here.


yes, but then ? You may live in Greenland and wwe cannot ever meet in
person.

You are still not my collegue or my neighbor who I can meet face to
face. The net can never be a substitute for p2p.


Deciding to trust and/or rating the proficiency of any of the
regulars (or others) is /your/ burden.
it's no burden. It is my responsability, yes.

No one can or desires tomake these decisions for you.

FWIW, I've found the regulars to be knowledgable, intelligent,
generous, and straightforewar d - if not always diplomatic. I'd be
proud to work with any of them on any project.


but do you *trust* them ? now ?

You will look at their answers to your questions differently than at
those of a gal you never saw here before, sure.

But would you, f.i. insert their code unseen in your project ? Not me,
never.

FYI, i worked for 25 years in tech software dev. and built code that
ran for 15 years in an industrial environment with great succes.
I've used from assembler via Pascal, Basic, Forth, Fortran to C and
god knows how many more languages.
I've seen programming methods and (standard)langu ages come and go.
I'm no newbie. And programming is still in its infancy.

frgr
Erik
Nov 14 '05 #55
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:55:07 -0700, the right honourable Alan Balmer
<al******@att.n et> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:45:48 +0100, Erik <et57 at correos calor dot
com> wrote:
The remedy here on usenet is, I think, the moderated group.
Usenet anarchy, however attractive sometimes, does not always work...
You seem to be trying to prove that.


naaaa, not really. Bringing in some arguments, at the most.
Arguments against the overly strict off-topic-cops.

Moderated groups, while useful, have their own problems, chief of
which is timeliness - one can't expect a reply to a post within a
short time.


absolutely. But they are strictly on-topic. Boring like a
fundamentalist religious gathering.

frgr
Erik
Nov 14 '05 #56
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:00:21 +0000, the right honourable Thomas Stegen
CES2000 <ts************ @cis.strath.ac. uk> wrote:
Erik wrote:
Must not the conclusion be:
The anarchy at the base of Usenet or even Internet, does not always
work very well for everybody ?
Apparently so. Right now I consider comp.lang.c to work well
for me. You can try to change it all you want. If you succeed
I will leave and I guess many of the other regulars will too.


How can I succeedin something I am not trying to accomplish ?


I have no sympathy for your case unless you can convince me that
things would improve for me. As it is, I can discuss anything
I want on usenet. Each newsgroup stands as a beacon of competence
giving guidance.

I have no case.
You are proposing a gray soup of knowledge where I might or might
not find what I am looking for. Thousands of comp.lang.misc groups
is something I do not want to be a part of.
I'm not advocating gray soup. I point out, that a 100% clear soup
tastes like water.
comp.lang.c will always be accessible to everyone...
You do not appear to understand what it means for something
to be anarchic. Since there is anarchy I can fight to keep
or make things the way I want them.


But there is no war !

comp.lang.c is accessible for everyone. It is not open for
every topic.


No, but the border are not as clear as some people want it to be.
I my opinion.
frgr
Erik
Nov 14 '05 #57
On 11 Feb 2004 18:52:15 GMT, the right honourable Da*****@cern.ch (Dan
Pop) wrote:
In <k2************ *************** *****@4ax.com> Erik <et57 at correos calor dot com> writes:
And there is no charter. So who determins which questions are
off-topic ? the "regulars" you say.
What would be a technical newsgroup without its regulars? A next to
useless place, because you'd never have any a priori indication about
the quality of one answer or another. Since they are the most valuable
resource of a newsgroup, they also have the privilege to decide the
"moderation policy".
A problem with the internet is one of identity. We do not know the
regulars, never seen them, never heard them, never met them.
I have great difficulty in trusting unseen people on the net.


When choosing technical books, do you select *only* the ones whose
authors you know personally (have met, seen, spoken to)? Why would be
the Internet any different?


Publishing books is an entirely different process than posting on
Usenet. There are collegues of the writer, review people , publishers
etc.etc. It's not easy to publish a book.
and there is no peer review for a usenet posting. Only after the fact.

Especially trusting them with any power to decide...etc.


You don't have to trust them with that power, it is a power they
acquired themselves, based on their own merits. If you don't like the
job they do, find another newsgroup or create one of your own.


But I do like the job they do, most of the time. But trust is a
different thing.
(for that, there are the moderated groups. One can ban all one likes
in a mod. group. No problem with that)
No white-robed high-priests for me, thank you.
They exist and exert their power, whether you like it or not.


hm, I am a fan of Immanuel Kant in this: I use my own brain.
My rule of thumb is: only trust if you have to. Or, As Ronnie Reagan
once said about the russians: trust but verify.
And I cannot verify on the net.
That's your problem. On the net, the credentials of each individual


yes indeed it is my problem. But I solved it :-)

are his posts and they are available to anyone interested.
There is no charter. So don't bark at people who decide by the name of
the news group: comp.lang.c: the C computer language. full stop.
OK, so you're now trying to act as a super-high-priest, imposing to the
high-priests what (not) to do. Why would they bother to listen to you?


so I am right ?
They listen, apparently...ju dging from the length of this thread...

The Usenet rules have been cast in concrete long ago: the newcomer *must*
lurk for a while, in order to figure out what the newsgroup is about,
rather than act based on *assumptions* derived from the newsgroup's name.
In the process, he'll also figure out who are the newsgroup's regulars
that are worth paying attention to and who is/are the village idiot(s).
There is no concrete on the net.
And it's only worth making rules, if they can be enforced. Ask any
cop.

You have as many chances to change the Usenet rules as you have to impose
your will to the newsgroup's regulars. In other words, you're wasting
your time.
but i don't want to change rules. I want to point out uncivilised
behaviour. (if only I could change it too !)

Dan


Nov 14 '05 #58
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:25:40 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Erik <et57 at correos
calor dot com> wrote:
Yes, and nothing has changed much since.
C is still a religion rather than a production tool, to many.
As such, we can recognize religious fundamentalism.

We need to guard against fundamentalism in any religion. Because it
narrows our thinking. We live "by the book" in that way, instead of
like free people.
Yeah, sure but you miss the point entirely. This group is for discussion of
C as it is defined by the Standard. That doesn't preclude discussion
elsewhere about gnu C, database interfaces, php and C or C shell.
As always, in using tech standards we need to question those standards
at all times.
Thats what comp.std.c is for.
For the solution to the problem is most important.
And standards are and should be a moving target.


Um, no, the Standard is a document ratified by ISO. It changes slowly, via
due process, and not at the whim of CLC.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.c om/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc. html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Nov 14 '05 #59
On 10 Feb 2004 23:42:23 -0800, in comp.lang.c , ms*****@yahoo.c om (MSG)
wrote:
"Mike Wahler" <mk******@mkwah ler.net> wrote in message news:<_Z******* ************@ne wsread2.news.pa s.earthlink.net >...
[Ich bin] "Mr. Wahler".


Dear Self-Appointed Unmoderated Newsgroup Moderator Impersonator,

Mr. or Ms., you still troll newsgroups, posting a gazillion messages a
day telling others in a very rude way what they shouldn't be talking
about, hence, regarless of your ancestry, you are, by definition, a
garden variety Topic Nazi.


idiot.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.c om/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc. html>
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Nov 14 '05 #60

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