Windows app or ASP.NET ?

[Alan T]

I am not sure which way to go:
Want to learn C# but C# is implemented both in Windows desktop application
and ASP.NET. I am not familiar with web programming, should I start with
Windows app or ASP .NET?

[Michael Starberg]

"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>I am not sure which way to go:
Want to learn C# but C# is implemented both in Windows desktop application
and ASP.NET. I am not familiar with web programming, should I start with
Windows app or ASP .NET?

Why not both?

- Michael Starberg

[Alan T]

I would love to but I need to get started from choosing one of them first
anyway.

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

I am not sure which way to go:
Want to learn C# but C# is implemented both in Windows desktop

application

and ASP.NET. I am not familiar with web programming, should I start with
Windows app or ASP .NET?

Why not both?

- Michael Starberg

[Michael Starberg]

"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:u8**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>I would love to but I need to get started from choosing one of them first
anyway.

First you need to learn to not top-post, if your message is not final.

But I'd start in the middle if I where you,
building a simple webservice, and have a small website and a winapp work
with that.

Why just a master-detail using the Northwnd database.
Some Databinding, GUI-gridding. And maybe some Validation.

Another thing you could do is to do a really slow Tetris,
in a console application. Using Console.Read()
you could redraw the 'game-area' for each move,
and spend time having fun with OO.
maybe IBrick knows when it hits IWall.
Or maybe IGame knows when a brick hits a wall.
Maybe the singleton Floor could raise an event
when it observes that a straight line has been done..

Lousy design, true, but it will get you going...

- Michael Starberg

[Michael A. Covington]

Start with Windows application programming.

I think trying to do both at once would be confusing.

[Michael A. Covington]

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:Oq**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>
"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:u8**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>I would love to but I need to get started from choosing one of them first
anyway.

First you need to learn to not top-post, if your message is not final.

Top-posting has come into wide use for a good reason. I challenge the
anti-top-posting crowd to enumerate the advantages of both bottom- and
top-posting. I'm afraid that for many people nowadays, telling others not
to top-post is merely a way of claiming status.

But I'd start in the middle if I where you,
building a simple webservice, and have a small website and a winapp work
with that.

Why just a master-detail using the Northwnd database.
Some Databinding, GUI-gridding. And maybe some Validation.

Another thing you could do is to do a really slow Tetris,
in a console application. Using Console.Read()
you could redraw the 'game-area' for each move,
and spend time having fun with OO.
maybe IBrick knows when it hits IWall.
Or maybe IGame knows when a brick hits a wall.
Maybe the singleton Floor could raise an event
when it observes that a straight line has been done..

Lousy design, true, but it will get you going...

Are those serious proposals? You seem to be trying to construct unusually
difficult things for a first project.

I generally tell beginners to build a simple interactive Windows app with
some buttons and textboxes; when the button is pressed, have it read the
textboxes, do a calculation, and report the result in another textbox. From
there, it's a simple step to games, graphical display of data, etc.

[Michael Starberg]

"Michael A. Covington" <lo**@ai.uga.edu.for.addresswrote in message
news:ea**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:Oq**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>
"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:u8**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>>I would love to but I need to get started from choosing one of them first
anyway.

First you need to learn to not top-post, if your message is not final.

Top-posting has come into wide use for a good reason. I challenge the
anti-top-posting crowd to enumerate the advantages of both bottom- and
top-posting. I'm afraid that for many people nowadays, telling others
not to top-post is merely a way of claiming status.

A: Because it ruines the flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top-posting bad?

That said, I often top-post.
But then I also clean-up and only leave relevant posts below.

I think it is fair to correct someone, while Alan surely ment no harm.
Also, I think you you are semi-correct on the 'claiming status' thingy.

It is not easy to join a new 'cluster' of friends in any situation.
Doesn't matter if it a rock-festival, a coktail-party or especially,
a usenet-cannel.

If I seems like a bigot to you,
then I semi-apologize for that

>>
Lousy design, true, but it will get you going...

Are those serious proposals? You seem to be trying to construct unusually
difficult things for a first project.

Yes, indeed. I am trying to get the basics of OO across
And this is not doing tetris from scratch in pure c.

If you have read my post, you'd see I asked questions.
Maybe Alan will start with learning how to get just one brick on a window.
Maybe interfaces will make him interested.
Maybe he needs simple OO theory.

>
I generally tell beginners to build a simple interactive Windows app with
some buttons and textboxes; when the button is pressed, have it read the
textboxes, do a calculation, and report the result in another textbox.
From there, it's a simple step to games, graphical display of data, etc.

Yep yep.
That would be a good start.
But by doing that, what have your pupil really learned?
Except using a mouse and keyboard?

I prefer to throw my pupils in the water
and tell them this would be a good time
to learn how to swim. =)

Alan:
Note that we are talking generally here,
noone is getting wet by force.
- Michael Starberg

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Michael,

This is not a Linux newsgroup. Topposting is the standard in Outlook Express
(Now Windows Mail) as most Microsoft Windows users use for newsgroups.

Bottom posting is in my idea from the previous millenium.

Cor

[Chris Shepherd]

Michael A. Covington wrote:

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:Oq**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:u8**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>>I would love to but I need to get started from choosing one of them first
anyway.

First you need to learn to not top-post, if your message is not final.

Top-posting has come into wide use for a good reason. I challenge the
anti-top-posting crowd to enumerate the advantages of both bottom- and
top-posting. I'm afraid that for many people nowadays, telling others not
to top-post is merely a way of claiming status.

This should really be a separate thread...

What is the "good reason" top-posting is becoming more common?

The cons to top-posting, as far as I'm concerned:
- Counterintuitive flow to conversation by convention (at least in
predominantly English speaking groups).
- In point-based analysis/response it fails to address or indicate which
points it relates to.

The primary con (really the only one that strikes me) with
bottom-posting is that if you're thoroughly familiar with the
conversation at hand, sifting through a person's quotes is nuisance.
However, in branching discussions such as Usenet this is handy since you
could jump from one branch in the discussion tree to another.

To summarize:
- Top-posting goes against every reading convention in the
English-speaking world. Print is designed to be read left to right, top
to bottom. Forum software is always designed to show you the most recent
posts at the bottom (by default, anyway). Heck, you even write left to
right, top to bottom.
- Bottom-posting does none of these things, and suits Usenet very well.

As for it being a "claim to status" that probably depends on the
individual posting more than the concept itself, though how you comport
yourself in a verbal fashion tends to indicate your status, so I imagine
to a degree that does apply to written material. Either way, if people
find top-posting confusing, and they say not to do it because it is a
barrier to communication then you probably ought to heed their
suggestions. Especially here in a newsgroup where people are frequently
asking for help.

Chris.

[Michael A. Covington]

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:ey*************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>I generally tell beginners to build a simple interactive Windows app with
some buttons and textboxes; when the button is pressed, have it read the
textboxes, do a calculation, and report the result in another textbox.
From there, it's a simple step to games, graphical display of data, etc.

Yep yep.
That would be a good start.
But by doing that, what have your pupil really learned?
Except using a mouse and keyboard?

Obviously, they haven't learned much OOP yet. But they also aren't lost.
They have a foundation.

I prefer to throw my pupils in the water
and tell them this would be a good time
to learn how to swim. =)

How many of them drown? One of my goals (and I've been teaching for 27
years) is for everyone to succeed to the best of his/her ability -- for
nobody to get lost unnecessarily. I figure they're *all* paying tuition.

[Chris Shepherd]

Alan T wrote:

I am not sure which way to go:
Want to learn C# but C# is implemented both in Windows desktop application
and ASP.NET. I am not familiar with web programming, should I start with
Windows app or ASP .NET?

As Smithers mentioned, ASP.NET has a few extra complications to it.
Start simple with a WinForms app.

Chris.

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Alan,

Take the one that gives you the most fun. Be aware that you need for ASP.Net
an open ASP.Net server, those are not always provided, you can use your own
computer as it is a professional version, however then your computer is
almost wide open if you have not very strong firewall hard- or software.

Beside that you need then a continuous connection to internet. I live in
Holland where that is common for most people, I assume that this is not
standard in Australia.

Cor

[Alan T]

Thank you very much the advices you all guys have given.
First of all, some threads discussed about my top-post, yes, this is my
habit as a result of my using Outlook Express as newsreader, that's the
default. I only use bottom-post when there are more than 1 previous material
to refer.

I forgot to mention in my original message, I have been programming C# using
VS 2005 for 6 months, but really have not much knowledge about the CSS,
session, web security (although several years ago I worked with web project
using Javascript and HTML).

I agree I should start with Windows application but not sure WHEN I should
start learning ASP .NET?
Can I just buy a book like Beginning ASP.NET with C# that go forward without
through understanding of Javascript, CSS, HTMl, XHTML, sessions,
Ajax.....etc.

Alan,

Take the one that gives you the most fun. Be aware that you need for

ASP.Net

an open ASP.Net server, those are not always provided, you can use your

own

computer as it is a professional version, however then your computer is
almost wide open if you have not very strong firewall hard- or software.

Beside that you need then a continuous connection to internet. I live in
Holland where that is common for most people, I assume that this is not
standard in Australia.

[Michael Starberg]

"Michael A. Covington" <lo**@ai.uga.edu.for.addresswrote in message
news:uJ****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

"Michael Starberg" <[e-mail] in message
news:ey*************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

Obviously, they haven't learned much OOP yet. But they also aren't lost.
They have a foundation.

oki.

>

>I prefer to throw my pupils in the water
and tell them this would be a good time
to learn how to swim. =)

How many of them drown?

None yet.. that I know of.
I don't count my 'pupils',
so I don't know. *s*

One of my goals (and I've been teaching for 27 years) is for everyone to
succeed to the best of his/her ability -- for nobody to get lost
unnecessarily. I figure they're *all* paying tuition.

Sure, but someone who knows what usenet is,
or know how to use google-groups,
probably don't need a teacher,
but a mentor.

I think we can both help
as in this battle of egos,
we kinda forgot someone,

Where is Alan? *s*

- Michael Starberg

[Michael Starberg]

Oki. I'll stand down.
What I was trying to say
is that top-posting encourages people not

"Michael A. Covington" <lo**@ai.uga.edu.for.addresswrote in message
news:uX****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

Well said, Cor! Top posting is indeed the standard in the world of
threaded newsreaders and very fast news delivery.

... to prune below posts.

>
I definitely don't believe computers were perfect in 1980 or that old
traditions should be preserved forever. I *was* using computers in 1980.
Even 1975 (Urbana PLATO) and even 1973 (CDC 6400). :)

Please stop giving us hardware-pr0n. I'm drooling. =)

- Michael Starberg

[Michael Starberg]

"Smithers" <[e-mail] in message
news:eb**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

I can't skip this one Smithers.

Maybe you should have. Nothing you wrote changes the reality that Web
applications are more complicated than Windows applications - which is
what my point was.

So your point came in 9 enumerated bullets,
with details why something is harder than something else.

Pretty blunt point you made.
What are you gonna stab with next?
A frisbee?

Or are your general suggestion
that we should all go back to VBScript,
as it is much easier to learn?

Bah. You lost me Smithers.

- Michael Starberg

[Michael Starberg]

Then I apologize for making such a thing of it.
"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>
I forgot to mention in my original message, I have been programming C#
using
VS 2005 for 6 months, but really have not much knowledge about the CSS,
session, web security (although several years ago I worked with web
project
using Javascript and HTML).

<divand em, is quite different from <tableand cleardots. *s*

>
I agree I should start with Windows application but not sure WHEN I should
start learning ASP .NET?

Why not both at the same time.
Code the same app in both!

Can I just buy a book like Beginning ASP.NET with C# that go forward
without
through understanding of Javascript, CSS, HTMl, XHTML, sessions,
Ajax.....etc.

If you ever find such a book, let me know =)

>Alan,

- Michael Starberg

[Smithers]

<snip>

So your point came in 9 enumerated bullets,
with details why something is harder than something else.

Yes - wasn't that nice of me? Instead of just making a vague and wild claim
that "Web apps are harder" - I concisely listed specifically how or why Web
apps are more complex. This was done to help the OP to make a rational
decision based on facts. I didn't do more than 9 because I figured 9 would
drive the point home that it's not just a few differences...

Pretty blunt point you made.
What are you gonna stab with next?
A frisbee?

This has nothing to do with being blunt. It has everything to do with (1)
backing up a point and (2) doing it briefly - while not being so brief as to
lose the point.

Or are your general suggestion
that we should all go back to VBScript,
as it is much easier to learn?

In none of my posts in this thread did I make any recommendation to learn
VBScript. In fact, my only reference to it was somewhat derogatory (... or,
if you are on the fringes, VBScript) - clearly implying that VBScript is a
less favorable alternative to JavaScript or ECMA Script.

What I did was point out specifically how Web applications require mastery
of more concepts and/or "components" than Windows Forms applications. In
doing that, I in no way questioned the merits of Web applications in
general. This was all to inform the OP of the reasoning behind the
recommendation for him to go with Windows Forms apps... the implication
being that he could focus more time on learning C# -which was HIS stated
objective. Going with a Web application would require him to learn things
beyond C# (his intended focus) additional things like HTML, CSS, and all
those other Web application-specific concepts I listed.

Bah. You lost me Smithers.

What a convenient time to get lost. :-)

-S

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Smithers,

As you point to the thread where I gave an advice, what is wrong with my
advice that when you start with ASPNET to be sure that you can give access
to your pages?

Can you do it without Internet (when it is about learning Internet is not
the question, and only creating pages for yourself is booring).

Cor

[Smithers]

Cor,

I didn't respond to your post.

I didn't address your advice.

I was responding to Alan T.

I was responding to the advice provided by Michael A Starberg (to learn both
simultaneously).

None of that had anything to do with you or your post.

-S

"Cor Ligthert[MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:4D**********************************@microsof t.com...

Smithers,

As you point to the thread where I gave an advice, what is wrong with my
advice that when you start with ASPNET to be sure that you can give access
to your pages?

Can you do it without Internet (when it is about learning Internet is not
the question, and only creating pages for yourself is booring).

Cor

[Chris Shepherd]

Michael Starberg wrote:

>9. Browser differences... they all have quirks and differences in how they
interpret the HTML standards.

Oh, html-standards are so prio 1 when learning C#
Now you are just grasping for air.

This is quite possibly the most nonsensical and (apologies to the rest
of the group) idiotic criticism leveled at another poster I have seen
written in this group to date. It tells me rather clearly that you have
very little, if any, experience in developing enterprise-level web
applications.

Chris.

[Michael A. Covington]

"Chris Shepherd" <ch**@nospam.chsh.cawrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Michael A. Covington wrote:

>Messages with top-posted replies aren't intended to be read through. The
assumption is that normally, the latest reply is the only part you need
to see.

Your definition of normally and mine obviously differ, and herein lies the
problem: Perhaps you read Usenet groups once or twice throughout the day,
and can digest large portions of threads. For me, the opposite is true --
I don't spend a lot of time reading threads, but rather I spend a bit of
time here and there, many times per day (at home and at work).

Exactly -- that is why the pro-top-posting and anti-top-posting crowds are
deadlocked.

[Michael Starberg]

"Chris Shepherd" <ch**@nospam.chsh.cawrote in message
news:uB****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Michael Starberg wrote:

>>9. Browser differences... they all have quirks and differences in how
they interpret the HTML standards.

Oh, html-standards are so prio 1 when learning C#
Now you are just grasping for air.

This is quite possibly the most nonsensical and (apologies to the rest of
the group) idiotic criticism leveled at another poster I have seen written
in this group to date. It tells me rather clearly that you have very
little, if any, experience in developing enterprise-level web
applications.

Chris.

If you are 'developing enterprise-level web applications',
I say html standards are important. Actually, it is a job.

html/css is not only a job, it's an art.

But if you just want to learn C# a la web,
html is not prio 1.

I hope you find that more sensical.

- Michael Starberg

[Michael Starberg]

"Smithers" <[e-mail] in message
news:OD**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

Cor,

I didn't respond to your post.

If you post to a usenet group, you implicity did.

>
I didn't address your advice.

If you post to a usenet group, you'll get it anyway.

>
I was responding to Alan T.

I was responding to the advice provided by Michael A Starberg (to learn
both simultaneously).

By telling me, my advice suck. That sure will help Alan. :)

None of that had anything to do with you or your post.

-S

If you can't take a comment, why post?

- Michael Starberg

[Mr. Arnold]

"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Thank you very much the advices you all guys have given.
First of all, some threads discussed about my top-post, yes, this is my
habit as a result of my using Outlook Express as newsreader, that's the
default. I only use bottom-post when there are more than 1 previous
material
to refer.

I forgot to mention in my original message, I have been programming C#
using
VS 2005 for 6 months, but really have not much knowledge about the CSS,
session, web security (although several years ago I worked with web
project
using Javascript and HTML).

I agree I should start with Windows application but not sure WHEN I should
start learning ASP .NET?

Why not do them both on the fly?

Can I just buy a book like Beginning ASP.NET with C# that go forward
without
through understanding of Javascript, CSS, HTMl, XHTML, sessions,
Ajax.....etc.

I recommend the MS MCTS training kit books for Web and Windows desktop
development. Forget that the books are for certification. The books will
give you a solid foundation by going through the basics. Basically, the
books give you the basics.

I also recommend that you look at the Design Patterns Bootcamp: Model View
Patterns Show with code examples. Pictures and presentations and code by
Polymorphicpodcast can help you out of the gate as well. You can also look
at some of the other shows as too.
http://www.polymorphicpodcast.com/

[Alan T]

Hi,

I am just thinking I am confused.
Although I have been programmin for several years in Delphi, however, the
advices given in this thread made me thinking of we need to prepare
ourselves not only ASP.NET, but also Windows app.

For ASP.NET, you need to know CSS, HTML (DHTML, XHTMl,...), XML, sessions,
cookies, Javascripts...etc.

Now if I start Windows app first, some may say you need to understand OOP.
On the top of that, you need to know API, Windows messaging,
database,...etc. So it seems you need to study the database, API... before
knowing C#.

Remember the days when I was working as trainee programming using Delphi
grabbed the book talking about Delphi, it also talked about OOP, Windows
controls (editbox, listbox, grid), database, API...etc.

So just wonder if I start the same way in learning ASP.NET in C#?

[Smithers]

RE:

Now if I start Windows app first, some may say you need to understand OOP.
On the top of that, you need to know API, Windows messaging,
database,...etc. So it seems you need to study the database, API... before
knowing C#.

OOP - you can "get away" without really know it. I"ve seen lots of VB6ers
writing "glorified scripts" in C#.
Separately, OOP is relevant to all kinds of applications. You seem to think
that OOP is relevant to Windows apps and not to ASP.NET apps. That's simply
incorrect.

API - you don't need to know that for a Windows forms app. Whatever benefit
might be gained from knowing how to call the windows API from a desktop app
could just as easily be realized or relevant to an ASP.NET app. Again, you
seem to think that API stuff is not relevant to ASP.NET - that's also not
true.

Windows messaging (same as above)...

Database... same as above. It's hard to imagine a non trivial ASP.NET Web
site that doesn't make use of some database.

If we revisit your original inquiry - you say you want to learn C#. What
most of the rational feedback you have received is telling you is more or
less: "learn Windows Forms app - because you'll be able to more easily focus
on the language itself - without also having to deal with CSS, HTML,
JavaScript, ViewState, etc. Those things are *required* with an ASP.NET app,
whereas the other stuff you listed (OOP, API, etc) is equally relevant to
both Windows and Web apps.

-HTH

S


"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:O$****************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

Hi,

I am just thinking I am confused.
Although I have been programmin for several years in Delphi, however, the
advices given in this thread made me thinking of we need to prepare
ourselves not only ASP.NET, but also Windows app.

For ASP.NET, you need to know CSS, HTML (DHTML, XHTMl,...), XML, sessions,
cookies, Javascripts...etc.

Now if I start Windows app first, some may say you need to understand OOP.
On the top of that, you need to know API, Windows messaging,
database,...etc. So it seems you need to study the database, API... before
knowing C#.

Remember the days when I was working as trainee programming using Delphi
grabbed the book talking about Delphi, it also talked about OOP, Windows
controls (editbox, listbox, grid), database, API...etc.

So just wonder if I start the same way in learning ASP.NET in C#?

[Michael Starberg]

"Alan T" <al*************@yahoo.com.auwrote in message
news:O$****************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...

Hi,

I am just thinking I am confused.

Don't be.

If you already know Delphi,
You will find .NET easy to learn.

Also, WinForms is a rip-off the Borland VCL.
This is not a blunt statement, but the truth.
Microsoft licenced most of Borlands patents,
so they could do a 'improvement' of the VCL.

This is why I suggest you should learn ASP.NET aswell,
because you don't need to learn so much about html and stuff,
just drag and drop components on a WebForm.

And in aspnet, if you add a singleton class to your project,
- Welcome to the world of threading!

My whole point was that you should do the same task,
in different way.

So up the ante - Do a tic-tac-toe in WinForms, WebForms, Java and C++
That will teach you programming, and what is just perks and flaws in each
world.

Or, just do it in WinForms, but in your head, learn how it would look like
in all 'em languages.

As for starters, maybe you should do a simple program using WinForm and
Delpihi and compare the two.

- Michael Starberg