Why use C#?

[Scirious]

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

Thanks,
Scirious.

[Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]]

Scirious,

Are you referring to C++ in a managed or unmanaged context?

If you are talking about an unmanaged context, then C# is worlds apart
from C++, in the sense that the code you compile in C# runs in an execution
environment which provides services such as verification, security, memory
management, etc, etc, all things in C++ you would have to roll on your own.

--
- Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
- mv*@spam.guard.caspershouse.com

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:MP******************************@giganews.com ...

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

Thanks,
Scirious.

[Mythran]

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:MP******************************@giganews.com ...

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

Thanks,
Scirious.

Couple of advantages:

Managed code. Manages memory consumption/pointers so you don't have to...in
turn eliminating (for the most part) errors due to invalid handles, et
cetera.

Faster application development (based on developer of course, and
his/her/it's knowledge of the language(s) used).

HTH,
Mythran

[Scirious]

> Are you referring to C++ in a managed or unmanaged context?

If you are talking about an unmanaged context, then C# is worlds
apart
from C++, in the sense that the code you compile in C# runs in an
execution environment which provides services such as verification,
security, memory management, etc, etc, all things in C++ you would
have to roll on your own.

Actually, I don't know what managed C++ is. What is the difference of C++
with managed C++ and the managed C++ with C#, apart from the fact that C++
can be compiled into executable code?

Thanks,
Scirious.

[Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]]

Scirious,

You can compile C++ code into code that is able to be run in the CLR
(like C#). You have to use a set of extensions to the language to enable
this, so in reality, it gives you two options for the output.

--
- Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
- mv*@spam.guard.caspershouse.com

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:MP******************************@giganews.com ...

Are you referring to C++ in a managed or unmanaged context?

If you are talking about an unmanaged context, then C# is worlds
apart
from C++, in the sense that the code you compile in C# runs in an
execution environment which provides services such as verification,
security, memory management, etc, etc, all things in C++ you would
have to roll on your own.

Actually, I don't know what managed C++ is. What is the difference of C++
with managed C++ and the managed C++ with C#, apart from the fact that C++
can be compiled into executable code?

Thanks,
Scirious.

[Scirious]

> You can compile C++ code into code that is able to be run in the

CLR
(like C#). You have to use a set of extensions to the language to
enable this, so in reality, it gives you two options for the output.

I know this, but I can also compile C++ to run outside the CLR, which is
not possible to do with C# according to my understanding.

[Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]]

Scirious,

Right, but you asked what the difference between managed and unmanaged
C++ is. That's it, code that runs in the CLR is managed, and you can write
C++ code that compiles to a managed assembly.

You can also use C++ to produce unmanaged code, which is what you would
consider C++ normally.
--
- Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
- mv*@spam.guard.caspershouse.com

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:c4******************************@giganews.com ...

You can compile C++ code into code that is able to be run in the
CLR
(like C#). You have to use a set of extensions to the language to
enable this, so in reality, it gives you two options for the output.

I know this, but I can also compile C++ to run outside the CLR, which is
not possible to do with C# according to my understanding.

[Scirious]

Ok, now from a personal point of view. I know only Java and a little of C.
If I will start sutding a new language like C++ or C# waht would you
recommend?

[Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]]

Scirious,

If you know Java already, then I would recommend C#, you will get up to
speed the quickest using that.

However, I think that knowing C++ does have some benefits, as really
being good in it forces you to understand concepts which are applicable to
software development in general.
--
- Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
- mv*@spam.guard.caspershouse.com

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:1o********************@giganews.com...

Ok, now from a personal point of view. I know only Java and a little of C.
If I will start sutding a new language like C++ or C# waht would you
recommend?

[andrew queisser]

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:1o********************@giganews.com...

Ok, now from a personal point of view. I know only Java and a little of C.
If I will start sutding a new language like C++ or C# waht would you
recommend?

What's your goal in learning a new language? C# and C++ are very different
beasts. They are both good languages and there are reasons for learning
either one.

Andrew

[Andrew Faust]

Scirious wrote:

Ok, now from a personal point of view. I know only Java and a little of C.
If I will start sutding a new language like C++ or C# waht would you
recommend?

It really depends on what you are planning to build. If it's just
general purpose GUI applications, I'd say go with C#. If you are working
on stuff where the primary concerns are memory footprint and speed
optimizations then C++ may be a better choice.

My real recommendation is to learn both, and maybe a few more languages
as well. The more you learn the quicker you will be able to pick up new
languages, plus it will open your eyes to multiple ways to solve problems.

Andrew Faust

[Scirious]

> What's your goal in learning a new language? C# and C++ are very

different beasts. They are both good languages and there are reasons
for learning either one.

Andrew

I want to switch from Java for two reasons:

1. I think Java's GUI is too ugly. Too square.
2. Also, Java doesn't support unsigned numbers.

And I want to implement a NNTP client and a mail analyzer at the moment,
but I don't want to do it with Java. So I thought about C# or C++, but
I'm not sure.

It seems that C# would be easier to learn and easier to develop. But
with C++ I can use QT for GUI what would allow me to port my code to
Linux easyly. It will be very useful to have a plethora of libraies and
collections and an easy system to create threads.

What do you say about it?

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Scirious <sc******@scirious.com> wrote:

<snip>

It seems that C# would be easier to learn and easier to develop. But
with C++ I can use QT for GUI what would allow me to port my code to
Linux easyly. It will be very useful to have a plethora of libraies and
collections and an easy system to create threads.

What do you say about it?

With C#, you can use GTK# to get a cross-platform UI. Threading is much
more straightforward under the CLI than in C++, in my experience - and
you can code to a single threading model, rather than worrying about
what the native threading models are on each platform.

See http://www.mono-project.com for how you'd run your code on Linux.

(Btw - Java UIs don't have to look rubbish at all. There are some
lovely Swing UIs around, and there's SWT as well.)

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Harold Howe]

Scirious wrote:

Ok, now from a personal point of view. I know only Java and a little of C.
If I will start sutding a new language like C++ or C# waht would you
recommend?

Are you learning for the sake of learning? Or does your new language
have to put food on the table?

Both C# and C++ can put food on the table. If windows is your primary
platform, and you want to develop GUI applications, then C# is a pretty
solid choice.

Personally, I think C++ is a better language overall. However, on
windows, your choice of C+++ GUI frameworks is limited. You would be
using one of these most likely:

- MFC
- Managed C++ on .NET
- Borland C++Builder and the VCL
- wxWidgets
- QT
- Direct API access
- GTK+
- ????

Since you already know java, I don't think managed C++ on .NET makes any
sense for you if the goal is to feed your family. You would be more
productive with C#. Among the rest, Borland C++Builder is probably the
most productive and enjoyable framework to use. But there are
consequences to using a tool from a small vendor whose management has
shown a lack of prudence over the years. I would avoid MFC like a bad
disease.

QT is an excellent framework, but the commercial version is not cheap.
wxWidgets is a good framework, and totally free. I don't know much about
gtk+, but it is also free. Each of these three would allow you to target
platforms other than windows. You could also consider C# on mono with
the GTK mono binding.

If you are learning for the sake of learning, and you think that you
have mastered java, I would consider learning something totally
different. Something like Ruby or Python.

H^2
remove .bounce from my email address.

[andrew queisser]

"Scirious" <sc******@scirious.com> wrote in message
news:U-******************************@giganews.com...

What's your goal in learning a new language? C# and C++ are very
different beasts. They are both good languages and there are reasons
for learning either one.

Andrew

I want to switch from Java for two reasons:

1. I think Java's GUI is too ugly. Too square.
2. Also, Java doesn't support unsigned numbers.

And I want to implement a NNTP client and a mail analyzer at the moment,
but I don't want to do it with Java. So I thought about C# or C++, but
I'm not sure.

It seems that C# would be easier to learn and easier to develop. But
with C++ I can use QT for GUI what would allow me to port my code to
Linux easyly. It will be very useful to have a plethora of libraies and
collections and an easy system to create threads.

What do you say about it?

There is a lot of overlap between C++ and C# and for your purposes both seem
like valid choices. If you already know Java there's one big advantage going
to C# which is that you (generally) don't have to worry about memory
deallocation.

Qt is cool but as Jon points out there's a way to interface to it via C#.

If cross-platform is a real concern then C++ is the way to go, not just
between Linux and Windows but pretty much any other OS, e.g. in the embedded
arena.

If you're mainly developing for Windows and your apps have a mix of GUI,
networking and DB stuff there's no better choice than C#.

One area where C++ clearly has an edge over C# (and pretty much any other
language) is developing performance-optimized applications. C# generics and
OO constructs are at a performance disadvantage compared to C++.

So in summary I'd say: cross-platform and performance concerns would push me
toward C++, ease of development and GUI/Web/DB would push me toward C#

Hope that helps,
Andrew

[andrew queisser]

> If you are learning for the sake of learning, and you think that you have

mastered java, I would consider learning something totally different.
Something like Ruby or Python.

^^^^

+1

[andrew queisser]

"andrew queisser" <an***************@hp.com> wrote in message
news:h%****************@news.cpqcorp.net...

If you are learning for the sake of learning, and you think that you have
mastered java, I would consider learning something totally different.
Something like Ruby or Python.

^^^^

+1

Arrghh, proportional fonts.

I meant the +1 for Ruby!

[Scirious]

I would say that being able to earn money pretty fast would also be
something to consider.

[Helge Jensen]

Scirious wrote:

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

The same as cows over horses :)

--
Helge

[Helge Jensen]

Scirious wrote:

I want to switch from Java for two reasons:

1. I think Java's GUI is too ugly. Too square.
There are other GUI's than SWING for JAVA, but really -- is the gui
appearance worth the effort?
2. Also, Java doesn't support unsigned numbers.
And you can't use the signed numbers?

I wouldn't choose language based on those grievances, you are going to
skip from language to language every week if things like these drive you
to a language-change.
It seems that C# would be easier to learn and easier to develop. But
with C++ I can use QT for GUI what would allow me to port my code to
Linux easyly. It will be very useful to have a plethora of libraies and
collections and an easy system to create threads.
Picking up C++ as a programming-language is *not* easy, especially if
you wan't to do threading and GUIs. It's gonna take you years to learn
and decades to debug -- only go there if it's worth the trouble.

If you like a plethora of libs, try some of the scripting-languages out
there, python is a good choice and the default install comes with an
NNTP library. Ruby is a good option too.

There are bindings for QT, GTK, and several other toolkits for almost
any language you can think of (including JAVA, atleast for GTK).
What do you say about it?

Perhaps you are focusing on the wrong issues?

[Scirious]

> There are other GUI's than SWING for JAVA, but really -- is the gui

appearance worth the effort?
Well, as I wouldn't like to keep using a Java application because I think
it's GUI is ugly I believe it is the same for others. Although Java's GUI
can be improved by theming or setting it up to use system's look and feel
it isn't perfect. I mean, it is always possible to know it is a Java
application just by looking to it. With QT, for example, using sustem's
look is much more smooth.

2. Also, Java doesn't support unsigned numbers.

And you can't use the signed numbers?

Well, some protocols (including the most used protocol for enconding files
to Usenet) use unsigned numbers. With Java there is the need to mask a long
number to be able to achieve the usage of an unsigned number, which is a
tremendous work. So, implementing these sort of protocols isn't woth doing
in Java.
Picking up C++ as a programming-language is *not* easy, especially if
you wan't to do threading and GUIs. It's gonna take you years to learn
and decades to debug -- only go there if it's worth the trouble.
I know it won't be easy, but I believe it is worth to. Anyway, C/C++ is a
language that will enable me to do any programming, from Windows threaded
GUI to device drivers. And learning C/C++ will be one time work while using
unsigned numbers in Java will be a loto of work for every program if I
don't find a way to develop a generic class for this purpose.
If you like a plethora of libs, try some of the scripting-languages out
there, python is a good choice and the default install comes with an
NNTP library. Ruby is a good option too.

Sure I want a plethora of libs. It would help me a lot. But I also want
something that will allow me to make money. Here where I live there is no
job for Python and Ruby programmers. These are just for hobbtysts. A top 10
ranking for programming jobs would be something like this:

1. Java
2. Java
3. Java
4. Java
5. Java
6. .Net (not sure which language)
7. .Net
8. PHP
9. PHP
10. C/C++

I know, I know! You will say there is more jobs for Java, but .Net ones pay
more and there are fewer developers for it. I just don't know which
language is being used here for .Net. Also C++ is a rare job, but people
that cand do well programmint in it are also rare. And, by the way, being
C/C++ the most used language I do believe there is really a big amount of
libs for it.

Now, to finish, do the managed C++ offer the same facilities that C#
offers? Like collections, single threading model, etc?

[Mythran]

"Helge Jensen" <he**********@slog.dk> wrote in message
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Scirious wrote:

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

The same as cows over horses :)

--
Helge

Cows taste great with catsup, lettuce, tomato, cheese, mayo, mustard, and a
bun while horses are good for riding....as for both, depends on the goal or
purpose...

Mythran

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Scirious <sc******@scirious.com> wrote:

There are other GUI's than SWING for JAVA, but really -- is the gui
appearance worth the effort?

Well, as I wouldn't like to keep using a Java application because I think
it's GUI is ugly I believe it is the same for others. Although Java's GUI
can be improved by theming or setting it up to use system's look and feel
it isn't perfect. I mean, it is always possible to know it is a Java
application just by looking to it. With QT, for example, using sustem's
look is much more smooth.

Have you used Eclipse? If so, did you know "just by looking to it" that
it was written in Java? I certainly wouldn't.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Scirious]

> Have you used Eclipse? If so, did you know "just by looking to it"

that it was written in Java? I certainly wouldn't.

Ok, if you look to Eclipse without for the first time withou knowing it is
written in Java you wouldn't know so, but you would certainly notice it is
a system default.

[Helge Jensen]

Scirious wrote:

tremendous work. So, implementing these sort of protocols isn't woth doing
in Java.
So, you would rather change language than use signed integers or use
another GUI framework? I hope there is some other motivation for diving
into a new language... issues like these crop up in every language.
Sure I want a plethora of libs. It would help me a lot. But I also want
something that will allow me to make money. Here where I live there is no
job for Python and Ruby programmers. These are just for hobbtysts. A top 10
Companies don't jump ship to new shiny languages because they have a lot
of baggage and experience in the old ones, you don't have that problem.

Learning C# will not expand your abilities much, it's roughly the same
as JAVA. Learning C++ or python will teach you new things. In the case
of c++ it will cost blood and sweat (and feet :), but you'll certainly
learn something.
ranking for programming jobs would be something like this:
Aaaah, now *that*'s a real motive!

At my job most code is written in C#. When I interview programmers I'm
not *that* concerned about which languages they have experience in --
mostly anybody (within reason) can learn C# and .NET pretty fast.

I'm more concerned about whether they actually understand what they are
doing, whatever language they're in. Being a "good" programmer/designer
has very little to do with knowing a programming-language.
I know, I know! You will say there is more jobs for Java, but .Net ones pay
more and there are fewer developers for it. I just don't know which
language is being used here for .Net. Also C++ is a rare job, but people
that cand do well programmint in it are also rare. And, by the way, being
C/C++ the most used language I do believe there is really a big amount of
libs for it.
Languages come and go in fashion, even the longer-lasting languages.
C++, JAVA and C# are not the same languages as they were 5-10 years ago.
My best advice would be to get an education that will allow you to pick
up new languages quickly, instead of focusing on each language at a time.
Now, to finish, do the managed C++ offer the same facilities that C#
offers? Like collections, single threading model, etc?

I'm not sure how valuable that's going to be to your choice, but since
you ask:

I don't really know about STA, I've never had to care about that --
which makes me pretty happy.

There are lots of collections available in C++, all of standard-library,
and you can use the .NET ones too, but it's hard to "glue" between the
two worlds.

--
Helge

[Mark Wilden]

"Helge Jensen" <he**********@slog.dk> wrote in message
news:On**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

Being a "good" programmer/designer has very little to do with knowing a
programming-language.

The only thing I'd say is that "good" programmers seem to know a number of
programming languages. To them, learning new languages is fun in and of
itself.

///ark

[Ole Nielsby]

Mythran wrote:

Cows taste great with catsup, lettuce, tomato, cheese, mayo,
mustard, and a bun while horses are good for riding....

Not to mention their great taste. You don't need mayo or
mustard for a good pony. Really!

Btw if you want something different, try Lisp or F#.

[Jeffrey Spoon]

In message <uV**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>, Harold Howe
<hh***********@mchsi.com> writes

Personally, I think C++ is a better language overall. However, on
windows, your choice of C+++ GUI frameworks is limited. You would be
using one of these most likely:

- MFC
- Managed C++ on .NET
- Borland C++Builder and the VCL
- wxWidgets
- QT
- Direct API access
- GTK+
- ????

Since you already know java, I don't think managed C++ on .NET makes
any sense for you if the goal is to feed your family. You would be more
productive with C#. Among the rest, Borland C++Builder is probably the
most productive and enjoyable framework to use. But there are
consequences to using a tool from a small vendor whose management has
shown a lack of prudence over the years. I would avoid MFC like a bad
disease.

This is interesting to me because I only really know Java, a tiny bit of
C and a little bit of C#. I was looking to do some more C++ because I
wanted to use a lower level language, for the challenge, and was going
to use MFC, since I have Visual Studio, but I also have Borland C++,
though I've yet to use it. So might look at Borland rather than MFC if
you think it'd be less problematic. I take it that VCL is the Visual
Components Library, not really familiar with it.

--
Jeffrey Spoon

[R-D-C]

Can you milk a horse?
"Mythran" <ki********@hotmail.comREMOVETRAIL> wrote in message
news:uK**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

"Helge Jensen" <he**********@slog.dk> wrote in message
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Scirious wrote:

People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?

The same as cows over horses :)

--
Helge

Cows taste great with catsup, lettuce, tomato, cheese, mayo, mustard, and
a bun while horses are good for riding....as for both, depends on the goal
or purpose...

Mythran

[mail]

I came to C# from a C++/COM route, and although slightly nervous that
I'd be dumbing down and throwing away all that hard won COM C++
knowledge, I was absolutely delighted with it. C# productivity is
very high. I'd forgotten what fun coding was!

If you want to find out more about C# try:

The C# Design Process: A Conversation with Anders Hejlsberg
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/ho...g/default.aspx

[Göran Andersson]

Of course you can.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/ne...00/4537499.stm

R-D-C wrote:

Can you milk a horse?
"Mythran" <ki********@hotmail.comREMOVETRAIL> wrote in message
news:uK**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

"Helge Jensen" <he**********@slog.dk> wrote in message
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Scirious wrote:
People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?
The same as cows over horses :)

--
Helge

Cows taste great with catsup, lettuce, tomato, cheese, mayo, mustard, and
a bun while horses are good for riding....as for both, depends on the goal
or purpose...

Mythran

[John B]

Göran Andersson wrote:

Of course you can.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/ne...00/4537499.stm
I am NOT going to click on that link :)

JB
R-D-C wrote:

Can you milk a horse?

<...>

[Göran Andersson]

John B wrote:

Göran Andersson wrote:

Of course you can.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/ne...00/4537499.stm

I am NOT going to click on that link :)

JB

You can safely do so. It doesn't show any actual horse milking, if
that's what you are afraid of. :)

Anyway, I don't really see why that would be any worse than, say,
milking a goat?

You eat eggs, don't you? Isn't that really gross when you think of it? ;)

(Sorry if this is getting badly off topic...)

R-D-C wrote:

Can you milk a horse?

<...>

[BlackWasp]

I feel a little bit ill now.

I suppose I shouldn't really, being a cow's milk drinker.

What's next? Dog's milk? Full of vitamins, full of minerals, full of
marrowbone jelly....


"Göran Andersson" <gu***@guffa.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

Of course you can.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/ne...00/4537499.stm

R-D-C wrote:

Can you milk a horse?
"Mythran" <ki********@hotmail.comREMOVETRAIL> wrote in message
news:uK**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

"Helge Jensen" <he**********@slog.dk> wrote in message
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Scirious wrote:
> People, what are the advantages of C# over C++?
The same as cows over horses :)

--
Helge
Cows taste great with catsup, lettuce, tomato, cheese, mayo, mustard,
and a bun while horses are good for riding....as for both, depends on
the goal or purpose...

Mythran