C# & Microsoft

[Pohihihi]

Hello All,

I guess I will be just ranting now. Few weeks back I had an interview with one of the groups in Microsoft for SDE. I was not selected and I am kind of upset on the *reason* I found why I was not selected. I am working with C# for last 3-4 years now and I did not had any real good reason to go 100% C++ in my projects. These projects were of some real good complexity and size.

When I was doing interview I did all the problems and algorithms in C# and I know I did very well. And guess what after all this, guy ask me "...can you write C++...", and I say yes I can if needed. And then he ask me for how long I am working on C#, and I tell him. Now see his reply "oh ok...(long pause) we have some work in GUI design, if you find that interesting !".

Now there is nothing wrong in making GUIs but this reply from MSFT employee told me the whole story about where C# and dotNet in general stands inside Microsoft and how developers who work with those languages are seen. In case someone is missing the point, is C# developers only good to make GUIs? What about all the complex software developed in dotNet? What about complex problems solved by algorithms written in C#?

Total shame on people like him who are working in MS and who see C# as the old VB was seen. I wonder Bill Gates has to say anything on this matter because Microsoft has this famous "I am Dev and you are just a Tester" gap. Now this new "I am C++ guy and you are just a C# kid" going on.

Funny, why even bother creating a language that its own creator do not respect.

--
Po

[TheSteph]

I think that the problem is not the language itself, but the libraries you
know and use. A "C# only developer" knows only the .Net framework.

Microsoft develop almost everything using C++ on Win32, they look for
someone that can be immediately (or rapidly) productive using all the
windows C++ libraries. and it take a very long time to learn it and to be
used to work with..

Example : My Delphi skills didn't help at all for learning C#; Yes I know
what to do.but not how to do.

Steph.

[Barry Kelly]

"TheSteph" <Th******@NoSpam.com> wrote:

Example : My Delphi skills didn't help at all for learning C#; Yes I know
what to do.but not how to do.

Interesting. My Delphi skills (TP 6 to D6) helped enormously. My C++, C,
Java etc. skills probably helped too though.

-- Barry

[andrew queisser]

I don't think this is very surprising at all. What kind of software should MS develop in C#? I thought C# was given to us, the developers outside of MS as a better VB, not given to MS developers to build new stuff and I can't see Windows, SQL Server or Office being rewritten in C#.

Andrew
"Pohihihi" <no*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ei**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Hello All,

I guess I will be just ranting now. Few weeks back I had an interview with one of the groups in Microsoft for SDE. I was not selected and I am kind of upset on the *reason* I found why I was not selected. I am working with C# for last 3-4 years now and I did not had any real good reason to go 100% C++ in my projects. These projects were of some real good complexity and size.

When I was doing interview I did all the problems and algorithms in C# and I know I did very well. And guess what after all this, guy ask me "...can you write C++...", and I say yes I can if needed. And then he ask me for how long I am working on C#, and I tell him. Now see his reply "oh ok...(long pause) we have some work in GUI design, if you find that interesting !".

Now there is nothing wrong in making GUIs but this reply from MSFT employee told me the whole story about where C# and dotNet in general stands inside Microsoft and how developers who work with those languages are seen. In case someone is missing the point, is C# developers only good to make GUIs? What about all the complex software developed in dotNet? What about complex problems solved by algorithms written in C#?

Total shame on people like him who are working in MS and who see C# as the old VB was seen. I wonder Bill Gates has to say anything on this matter because Microsoft has this famous "I am Dev and you are just a Tester" gap. Now this new "I am C++ guy and you are just a C# kid" going on.

Funny, why even bother creating a language that its own creator do not respect.

--
Po

[Mythran]

You can't see SQL Server or Office being rewritten in C#? Why not? Now,
with Windows, I can agree. C# isn't a low-level enough language to perform
the basic operations of an OS (IE, generic drivers for boot). But for SQL
Server, isn't most or a good part of SQL Server 2005 written using a single
or combination of the .Net languages? If so, why can't Office be written
using it? Yeah, they could re-write the entire office app...but they won't
or probably would not do it all at once anyways. They can re-write pieces
of it and, because .Net works with COM via Interop, they can write the COM
pieces one at a time ... anywho, it's possible...maybe they will...maybe
they won't :)

Mythran

[Rene]

I believe this program is written in C#
http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/
"andrew queisser" <an***************@hp.com> wrote in message news:c%***************@news.cpqcorp.net...
I don't think this is very surprising at all. What kind of software should MS develop in C#? I thought C# was given to us, the developers outside of MS as a better VB, not given to MS developers to build new stuff and I can't see Windows, SQL Server or Office being rewritten in C#.

Andrew
"Pohihihi" <no*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ei**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Hello All,

I guess I will be just ranting now. Few weeks back I had an interview with one of the groups in Microsoft for SDE. I was not selected and I am kind of upset on the *reason* I found why I was not selected. I am working with C# for last 3-4 years now and I did not had any real good reason to go 100% C++ in my projects. These projects were of some real good complexity and size.

When I was doing interview I did all the problems and algorithms in C# and I know I did very well. And guess what after all this, guy ask me "...can you write C++...", and I say yes I can if needed. And then he ask me for how long I am working on C#, and I tell him. Now see his reply "oh ok...(long pause) we have some work in GUI design, if you find that interesting !".

Now there is nothing wrong in making GUIs but this reply from MSFT employee told me the whole story about where C# and dotNet in general stands inside Microsoft and how developers who work with those languages are seen. In case someone is missing the point, is C# developers only good to make GUIs? What about all the complex software developed in dotNet? What about complex problems solved by algorithms written in C#?

Total shame on people like him who are working in MS and who see C# as the old VB was seen. I wonder Bill Gates has to say anything on this matter because Microsoft has this famous "I am Dev and you are just a Tester" gap. Now this new "I am C++ guy and you are just a C# kid" going on.

Funny, why even bother creating a language that its own creator do not respect.

--
Po

[William Stacey [MVP]]

Not sure. Many things are writen in c#, not just gui.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Pohihihi" <no*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ei**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Hello All,

I guess I will be just ranting now. Few weeks back I had an interview with one of the groups in Microsoft for SDE. I was not selected and I am kind of upset on the *reason* I found why I was not selected. I am working with C# for last 3-4 years now and I did not had any real good reason to go 100% C++ in my projects. These projects were of some real good complexity and size.

When I was doing interview I did all the problems and algorithms in C# and I know I did very well. And guess what after all this, guy ask me "...can you write C++...", and I say yes I can if needed. And then he ask me for how long I am working on C#, and I tell him. Now see his reply "oh ok...(long pause) we have some work in GUI design, if you find that interesting !".

Now there is nothing wrong in making GUIs but this reply from MSFT employee told me the whole story about where C# and dotNet in general stands inside Microsoft and how developers who work with those languages are seen. In case someone is missing the point, is C# developers only good to make GUIs? What about all the complex software developed in dotNet? What about complex problems solved by algorithms written in C#?

Total shame on people like him who are working in MS and who see C# as the old VB was seen. I wonder Bill Gates has to say anything on this matter because Microsoft has this famous "I am Dev and you are just a Tester" gap. Now this new "I am C++ guy and you are just a C# kid" going on.

Funny, why even bother creating a language that its own creator do not respect.

--
Po

[Kevin Spencer]

I can give you one good reason why OS and other MS apps are not written in
..Net, after my recent experience.

The .Net platform can be removed, changed, and corrupted, although this is
not common. Still, it happened to me, and was a pain in the butt to
diagnose. The OS can also be corrupted, but its much more difficult to do
so. Once the platform is corrupted, everything that uses it is corrupted.

I'm sure that as MS integrates the .Net platform into the OS (possibly by
the Vista release), and makes it as solid as the OS platform, that more apps
will be written at lower levels by Microsoft and everyone else.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Hard work is a medication for which
there is no placebo.

"William Stacey [MVP]" <wi************@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Oc**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Not sure. Many things are writen in c#, not just gui.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Pohihihi" <no*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ei**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Hello All,

I guess I will be just ranting now. Few weeks back I had an interview with
one of the groups in Microsoft for SDE. I was not selected and I am kind of
upset on the *reason* I found why I was not selected. I am working with C#
for last 3-4 years now and I did not had any real good reason to go 100% C++
in my projects. These projects were of some real good complexity and size.

When I was doing interview I did all the problems and algorithms in C# and
I know I did very well. And guess what after all this, guy ask me "...can
you write C++...", and I say yes I can if needed. And then he ask me for how
long I am working on C#, and I tell him. Now see his reply "oh ok...(long
pause) we have some work in GUI design, if you find that interesting !".

Now there is nothing wrong in making GUIs but this reply from MSFT
employee told me the whole story about where C# and dotNet in general stands
inside Microsoft and how developers who work with those languages are seen.
In case someone is missing the point, is C# developers only good to make
GUIs? What about all the complex software developed in dotNet? What about
complex problems solved by algorithms written in C#?

Total shame on people like him who are working in MS and who see C# as the
old VB was seen. I wonder Bill Gates has to say anything on this matter
because Microsoft has this famous "I am Dev and you are just a Tester" gap.
Now this new "I am C++ guy and you are just a C# kid" going on.

Funny, why even bother creating a language that its own creator do not
respect.

--
Po

[William Stacey [MVP]]

|I can give you one good reason why OS and other MS apps are not written in
| .Net, after my recent experience.

I can understand why OS is not, but plenty of MS apps are (SBA, BizTalk,
WPF, WCF, etc).

| The .Net platform can be removed, changed, and corrupted, although this is
| not common. Still, it happened to me, and was a pain in the butt to
| diagnose. The OS can also be corrupted, but its much more difficult to do
| so. Once the platform is corrupted, everything that uses it is corrupted.

What happened? Did you figure out the root cause (Beta sw install/remove,
virus, other)?

--
William Stacey [MVP]

[Kevin Spencer]

> I can understand why OS is not, but plenty of MS apps are (SBA, BizTalk,

WPF, WCF, etc).
Yes, some are, but not the most crucial ones.
What happened? Did you figure out the root cause (Beta sw install/remove,
virus, other)?
Thanks for asking! I didn't experience anything system-wide, only affected
MDX 9. I kept getting a strange and inexplicable exception in any MDX 9 app
I ran - "File Not Found" - when loading modules.

It took me about 4 days to track it down, because it turns out that it was a
native image that was causing the problem, and those are nearly impossible
to find, much less fix. I had to use everything from Dependency Walker to
listDlls to FileMon to WinDebug to find it. It was a VisualC.dll native
image that was causing the problem, and oddly enough, that is not a managed
DLL, and shouldn't have been loaded at all. Uisng nGen didn't fix it, so I
uninstalled all versions of the .Net platform, the DirectX SDK, both
versions of Visual Studio.Net, and all .Net components, deleted all the
remaining files, rebooted, reinstalled everything, and it was fine.

I believe it was related to an install of an early beta of the WinFX SDK
that I did around December. I remember having a bear of a time trying to
install it. But until now, it had not caused any problems. But of course,
MDX is a bit different than most .Net software.

But as I was doing the uninstalling, I realized that thankfully, the rest of
my non-DotNet software was unscathed by the process. So, I'm thinking that
once Vista comes out, with basically a form of .Net built into the OS, we
may see more critical apps written in .Net. Still, MS may have to do
something about the GAC, at least along the lines of being able to repair
it. And of course, mostly for the use of developers and those of us brave
enough to beta test their software!

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Hard work is a medication for which
there is no placebo.

"William Stacey [MVP]" <wi************@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eG**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... |I can give you one good reason why OS and other MS apps are not written
in
| .Net, after my recent experience.

I can understand why OS is not, but plenty of MS apps are (SBA, BizTalk,
WPF, WCF, etc).

| The .Net platform can be removed, changed, and corrupted, although this
is
| not common. Still, it happened to me, and was a pain in the butt to
| diagnose. The OS can also be corrupted, but its much more difficult to
do
| so. Once the platform is corrupted, everything that uses it is
corrupted.

What happened? Did you figure out the root cause (Beta sw install/remove,
virus, other)?

--
William Stacey [MVP]

[Mythran]

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:ud**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

It took me about 4 days to track it down, because it turns out that it was
a native image that was causing the problem, and those are nearly
impossible to find, much less fix. I had to use everything from Dependency
Walker to listDlls to FileMon to WinDebug to find it. It was a VisualC.dll
native image that was causing the problem, and oddly enough, that is not a
managed DLL, and shouldn't have been loaded at all. Uisng nGen didn't fix
it, so I uninstalled all versions of the .Net platform, the DirectX SDK,
both versions of Visual Studio.Net, and all .Net components, deleted all
the remaining files, rebooted, reinstalled everything, and it was fine.

I believe it was related to an install of an early beta of the WinFX SDK
that I did around December. I remember having a bear of a time trying to
install it. But until now, it had not caused any problems. But of course,
MDX is a bit different than most .Net software.

But as I was doing the uninstalling, I realized that thankfully, the rest
of my non-DotNet software was unscathed by the process. So, I'm thinking
that once Vista comes out, with basically a form of .Net built into the
OS, we may see more critical apps written in .Net. Still, MS may have to
do something about the GAC, at least along the lines of being able to
repair it. And of course, mostly for the use of developers and those of us
brave enough to beta test their software!

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Hard work is a medication for which
there is no placebo.

"William Stacey [MVP]" <wi************@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eG**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

|I can give you one good reason why OS and other MS apps are not written
in
| .Net, after my recent experience.

I can understand why OS is not, but plenty of MS apps are (SBA, BizTalk,
WPF, WCF, etc).

| The .Net platform can be removed, changed, and corrupted, although this
is
| not common. Still, it happened to me, and was a pain in the butt to
| diagnose. The OS can also be corrupted, but its much more difficult to
do
| so. Once the platform is corrupted, everything that uses it is
corrupted.

What happened? Did you figure out the root cause (Beta sw
install/remove,
virus, other)?

--
William Stacey [MVP]

Yeah, didn't you post this in the mdx newsgroup a day or two ago? Thought I
saw it in there too :)

Mythran

[james.curran]

>> Now, with Windows, I can agree. C# isn't a low-level enough language to perform
the basic operations of an OS

You may wish to look into Singularity:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...06/EndBracket/

"our team in Microsoft Research built a new system to study trade-offs
in the pervasive use of safe languages and to demonstrate that they
need not incur large performance penalties. Singularity is a new
operating system, written almost entirely in C#, which executes only
verifiably safe programs. Singularity's kernel and runtime libraries
are the only parts of the system containing unsafe code and, even in
those sections, most code is written in safe C#."

http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/

[Kevin Spencer]

Sure did. ZMan was of great service!

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Complex things are made up of
lots of simple things.

"Mythran" <ki********@hotmail.comREMOVETRAIL> wrote in message
news:uJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:ud**************@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

It took me about 4 days to track it down, because it turns out that it
was a native image that was causing the problem, and those are nearly
impossible to find, much less fix. I had to use everything from
Dependency Walker to listDlls to FileMon to WinDebug to find it. It was a
VisualC.dll native image that was causing the problem, and oddly enough,
that is not a managed DLL, and shouldn't have been loaded at all. Uisng
nGen didn't fix it, so I uninstalled all versions of the .Net platform,
the DirectX SDK, both versions of Visual Studio.Net, and all .Net
components, deleted all the remaining files, rebooted, reinstalled
everything, and it was fine.

I believe it was related to an install of an early beta of the WinFX SDK
that I did around December. I remember having a bear of a time trying to
install it. But until now, it had not caused any problems. But of course,
MDX is a bit different than most .Net software.

But as I was doing the uninstalling, I realized that thankfully, the rest
of my non-DotNet software was unscathed by the process. So, I'm thinking
that once Vista comes out, with basically a form of .Net built into the
OS, we may see more critical apps written in .Net. Still, MS may have to
do something about the GAC, at least along the lines of being able to
repair it. And of course, mostly for the use of developers and those of
us brave enough to beta test their software!

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Hard work is a medication for which
there is no placebo.

"William Stacey [MVP]" <wi************@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eG**************@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

|I can give you one good reason why OS and other MS apps are not written
in
| .Net, after my recent experience.

I can understand why OS is not, but plenty of MS apps are (SBA, BizTalk,
WPF, WCF, etc).

| The .Net platform can be removed, changed, and corrupted, although
this is
| not common. Still, it happened to me, and was a pain in the butt to
| diagnose. The OS can also be corrupted, but its much more difficult to
do
| so. Once the platform is corrupted, everything that uses it is
corrupted.

What happened? Did you figure out the root cause (Beta sw
install/remove,
virus, other)?

--
William Stacey [MVP]

Yeah, didn't you post this in the mdx newsgroup a day or two ago? Thought
I saw it in there too :)

Mythran

[andrew queisser]

<ja**********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11*********************@y43g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...

Now, with Windows, I can agree. C# isn't a low-level enough language
to perform

the basic operations of an OS

You may wish to look into Singularity:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...06/EndBracket/

"our team in Microsoft Research built a new system to study trade-offs
in the pervasive use of safe languages and to demonstrate that they
need not incur large performance penalties. Singularity is a new
operating system, written almost entirely in C#, which executes only
verifiably safe programs. Singularity's kernel and runtime libraries
are the only parts of the system containing unsafe code and, even in
those sections, most code is written in safe C#."

http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/

Referring two posts back: I think rewriting Windows in C# would be
impractical, whether it's doable or not is a different question.

Singularity seems like a really interesting concept but there are a couple
of things to keep in mind:

- The concept of SIPs (software isolated processes) is a pretty radical
development. The idea, as I understand it, is to use the safety of a
language like C# to eliminate the performance overhead of hardware
protection.

- Singularity is actually written mostly in Sing#, which is an extension of
Spec#, which is an extension of C#. A quibble, mostly, but from the sound of
it Sing# enables first-class message passing and more verifiability. Would
Sing# be as friendly as C#? I don't know.

From the sound of it Singularity is a new type of operating system kernel,
which requires a different type of programming and I'm not sure how much of
the original Windows code would port over easily.

Andrew