C# developers going back to vb.net

[Kevin]

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Kevin]

APM,

Yes, moving from one enviroment to another is always a problem no
matter what language is chosen on the framework. VB.Net is vastly
different from VB or VB 6, just getting used to some of the keywords in
the beginning can be a problem ie: NotInheritable (don't know how they
came up with this one, they probably thought that vb guys wouldn't be
able to pronounce the keyword sealed), and what about moving from Java
to C#, Final becomes Sealed. In the end you would end up with bugs if
you do not understand the enviroment as well as the syntactical issues.

This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
language on the .Net framework.

Kevin

[alYsa]

I think people that were developing with VB should not be developers at all.
:)
There is some truth in that - cause they are rooted so much in bad
methodologies and crap code - that they are very useless in understanding
proper OO programming. So if they use vb.net - then nothing changes - they do
the same crap procedural code - just they think that they are programming OO
cause vb.net supposed to be OO language.
So in my opinion every VB developer should go to C# - so they would forget
everything they knew about VB - it does not work that way as it used to.
And who says that this:

if VB Is Nothing then
csharp = "great"
end if

is easier on eyes than this:

if (VB == null) {
csharp = "great";
}
Any adult and kid understands that reading symbol (bracket) is much easier
to spot than reading a word . So you do not even have to read C# sytax - it
is obviuos from a glance - and you HAVE TO read VB.Net syntax and it takes
longer to understand.
So VB developers - it is time to grow up for you.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Alysa,

There is in my opinion enough told in this thread that has a higher value
than your probably try to create a trolling thread (just asking others not
to react on this).

Just read what is written and you have replies enough with a higer value no
matter if I agree with what is written or not.

Whatever that you write as reply on this, you get no reply on that from me

Cor

[alYsa]

I am expressing my oppinion and not looking for values.
Are you sure you do not want to grow up?

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" wrote:

Alysa,

There is in my opinion enough told in this thread that has a higher value
than your probably try to create a trolling thread (just asking others not
to react on this).

Just read what is written and you have replies enough with a higer value no
matter if I agree with what is written or not.

Whatever that you write as reply on this, you get no reply on that from me

Cor

[rsboze]

While I do think there is room in this world for VB Developers, I have to
agree with alYsa that many of them like to think that using an OO language is
the same as applying OO principles. I can't tell you the number of VB.Net
developers we interviewed at my company that had the phrase "Object Oriented"
all over their resume, but when they were asked to give a basic example of OO
in action, they couldn't do it. I think C# lends itself more to good
programming disciplines than VB does. That's not to say that all (or even
most) VB developers are undisciplined, just that it takes a more conscious
effort to be disciplined when using VB than it does with C#.


"alYsa" wrote:

I think people that were developing with VB should not be developers at all.
:)
There is some truth in that - cause they are rooted so much in bad
methodologies and crap code - that they are very useless in understanding
proper OO programming. So if they use vb.net - then nothing changes - they do
the same crap procedural code - just they think that they are programming OO
cause vb.net supposed to be OO language.
So in my opinion every VB developer should go to C# - so they would forget
everything they knew about VB - it does not work that way as it used to.
And who says that this:

if VB Is Nothing then
csharp = "great"
end if

is easier on eyes than this:

if (VB == null) {
csharp = "great";
}
Any adult and kid understands that reading symbol (bracket) is much easier
to spot than reading a word . So you do not even have to read C# sytax - it
is obviuos from a glance - and you HAVE TO read VB.Net syntax and it takes
longer to understand.
So VB developers - it is time to grow up for you.

[Mike Hofer]

"Kevin" wrote:

This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
language on the .Net framework.

There are a plethora of reasons to move from VB 6 or VB.NET to C#. For
myself, they include the following:

1.) Broadening my skillset. I *like* to learn knew technologies. I like
knowing several different languages, and being able to choose the one that's
most suitable for the job at hand.

2.) Operator overloading. Visual Basic doesn't support it. (Yet.) C# does.

3.) I already knew C++ and Java; the migration from Java to C# wasn't all
that steep.

4.) C# is far more typesafe than Visual Basic. Visual Basic allows you to be
less strict by omitting Option Strict. In a team environment, that can be a
huge source of difficult to track bugs. C# code is always strict.

5.) Coding in C# helps me to break many of the bad habits I developed over
the years as a sloppy Visual Basic developer, and which still cling to me.
Things like the use of the ubiquitous Left(), Right(), Mid(), Upper() and
Lower() functions. Also, Visual Basic .NET still has support for modules,
which promote the use of global variables. Global Variables == DOOOOOOOOOOM.
C# has no direct support for modules (that I'm aware of--someone please
correct me if I'm wrong so that I can avoid it like the plague). C# makes me
write better code, and design better software by avoiding constructs and
VB-specific features.

As far as the whole "herd mentality" thing goes, I think you could flip that
argument around with equal effectiveness. For years, companies pushed Visual
Basic as the one and only tool for development of software. VAST amounts of
software was written in Visual Basic and most of it, in my experience, was
*crap* developed by developers who had no formal training (myself included)
and which wasn't designed for growth, stability, testability, extensibility,
or any of the other core attributes that make for high quality software.
Maintaining that software has been the bane of my existence since 1991.

At any rate, a lot of VB followers joined the VB herd because it was the
popular thing to do. The "herd mentality" also is responsible for letting
ridiculous hold-overs from VB6 creep into .NET. (1-based collections? ReDim
takes the upper index as its argument?! Come on!!!)

Now, having said all that, it's worth pointing out that I am a huge fan of
VB.NET, and still use it every day. I am moving towards C# because I think it
will make me a better programmer by enforcing better coding standards. Does
that make VB.NET a crap tool? Of course not. Does moving to C# make me less
than a man? Allow me to clear that up for you.

Not only no, but HELL no.

[Larry Lard]

alYsa wrote:
[snip]

And who says that this:

if VB Is Nothing then
csharp = "great"
end if

is easier on eyes than this:

if (VB == null) {
csharp = "great";
}
Any adult and kid understands that reading symbol (bracket) is much easier
to spot than reading a word .

I suspect that most psychologists and linguists would probably disagree
with you - ease of comprehension is certainly not a simple function of
symbol length. If that were so then a language whose syntax elements
were all single characters would be easiest of all to comprehend - and
I daresay that 'any adult and kid' would understand that that would not
be so. When someone who can read English well reads English which
contains only words they know, they tend to parse at a *word* level
rather than at a letter level. Which might suggest that VB's more
English-like syntax makes for *easier* comprehension, not harder...

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

[Jorge]

VB.net and C#.net who cares, usually you will find a way in either language.
I just love the fact that I have an option. I feel more confortable with C#,
can I do VB? yes, but, it is how I feel and how much less code I want to
write.

Jorge

[joe mamma]

"alYsa" wrote:

I think people that were developing with VB should not be developers at all.
:)
There is some truth in that - cause they are rooted so much in bad
methodologies and crap code - that they are very useless in understanding
proper OO programming. So if they use vb.net - then nothing changes - they do
the same crap procedural code - just they think that they are programming OO
cause vb.net supposed to be OO language.
So in my opinion every VB developer should go to C# - so they would forget
everything they knew about VB - it does not work that way as it used to.

Alysa, you are so correct! I think I am in love!!!

VBSUX was the worst peiece of crap over unleashed. The syntax led to
worthless code. the VB.Not syntax perpetuates the sin!

look at the syntax for declaring variables to see the problem. . .

I think 'Give me an interger called foo set to bar:

C#:
int foo = bar

I dont think "dimension some memory called foo that will hold an integer and
store bar in it":

VB.Not:
dim foo as integer = bar

Now look at the IDE's -

C#: I can drop a control on a form in c# and go directly to the property
window| events tab and double click and create an event.

VB.NOT: drop a control, switch to code, select the control from the combo at
the right top. . . soll through the events for the control in the combo on
the right. what a pain in the frickin a$$

Can we talk about VBSUX developers (and I use the word loosly) for a second?
9 out of 10 of them were totally confused by databinding and are going to
hate .net. Most of these morons were opening recordsets and itereating though
the recordsets and loading the values directly into their controls. What
idiots!!!!

Also, there were things you simply couldn't do in VBSUX. I won't elaborate,
just trust me. . . you couldn't do it. Ok you forced me - Form inheritance,
multithreading sophisticated COM+ development. 'But how often do we really
need that?' you might counter. . .

My response, 'If you dont know, you wouldn't understand. . . Can I talk to
your clients??? And while I steal your business, take a look at delphi.'

hmmm. . . didn't Microsoft pay the guy who developed the far superior delphi
a shitload of money to leave borland and come on board to develop .net???

Microsoft, take your VB development team out back and shoot them. . . and
then shoot their mothers for bearing them! Protect the gene pool and shoot
their sisters, too!!!

[Kevin]

Joe, I think you should pop a tranquilizer son, you are far too
emotional.
Shooting the VB Team, their Mothers and Sisters is a little uncalled
for.
Maybe we should ask Microsoft to drop Edit and Continue in C# as it's a
VB
feature, would this make you feel better?

Believe me just because you think the language you work in has nicer
looking keywords doesn't make you a better developer.

Kevin

[Jorge]

I'm sorry Joe, but you are wrong. How can you stand there and abuse the VB
developers. You might be able to code in C#, but you know what? I sure as
hell will not want you in my development team. Just because someone is not as
competence as you are does not give you the right to insult them. Plus, I
don’t think everyone here will appreciate, even if you are right or not, the
insult. This is a discussion not a debate. You like C#, others like VB.net,
both can be productive, and both of them have a market.
Jorge

[joe mamma]

First of all I am making two points. VBSUX sucked and the VB.NOT language is
inferior.

Re. VBSUX - In the real world, everything that is supposedly so great about
it becomes a glaring defect. Lack of OO makes it virtually impossible to
implement some of the most basic design patterns without creating an
unwieldly chunk of code.
Simply put, its 'simple' language often leads to bad design. The VBSUX way
of doing things is the wrong way of doing things.
Yes it reads like english. . . a run-on sentence!

I have been spending the last 2 years maintaining a 100+ form VBSUX
application and it is a complete nightmare.

My first instinct is to blame the original developers, but that wouldn't be
fair. Yes, they weren't that skilled but they did the best they could with
what they had ->

no visual databinding without incorporating the adodc (and even that is a
bassackwards paradigm) and the databinding library.
Adding a library to the application requires a new installation which is
unacceptable in most of our deployments. "DLL Hell??? What the fuck is
that???" asked the delphi developer."
You cant do stream IO /threads/com+ events/service applications/native dll's.
No delegation therefore you can't dynamically wire/unwire event handlers.
No structured exception handling. No, On Error Resume is not structured. it
is the cause of most of the crappy code I see!
And worst of all, a shoddy help file.
Oh, did I mention, you have to run an add-in to get mouse wheel response in
the code editor???

I could go on and on.

have you got a commercial VBSUX application on the market??? give me 5
minutes, I will break it.

I could go on and on about VBSUX. it is a piece of crap and is not viable
for commercial applications.

VBSUX -- created by bad developers for bad developers.
Shoot the team so the don't do any more damage!!!

That being said. . . let me go through the keyword list for VB.NOT. No
further discourse will be needed to definitively prove the inferiority of the
language. . .

AddHandler. . .AddressOf: what the fuck is that???? why doesnt VB.NOT use
an assignment operator?????
As: In every other OOP language As is the cast operator but this fucked up
language hi-jacks it for ass-backwards variable declaration syntax.
DirectCast: Oh yeah we need this because this fucked up langauge already
hi-jacked 'As'
Function: what the fuck do we need this word for??? there is no such thing
as a function only methods. just some don't return values.
Implements [interface.method]: why in the world should this statement be
necessary when a simple override key word without the interface spec should
be adequate in most scenarios.
Is: this fucked up language hi-jacks the type comparer for reference
comparison.
MustInherit/MustOverride: what the fucK???? why two different words??? and
why isnt the word 'abstract'?????
Nothing: huh??? whats wrong with null???
NotInheritable/NotOverridable: again - what the fuck??? two different words
when one would suffice - 'sealed'!!!
Overridable: huh??? the word is 'virtual'
ReadOnly: what??? the complier isnt snmart enough to figure out that if it
doesnt have a setter it is read only????
RemoveHandler: see addhandler above.
Shared: huh? the rest of the world uses 'static'
Sub: again there is no such thing as functions and subs, only methods
WriteOnly: see ReadOnly above.

Finally, the a new line is part of the lexicon!!! what the fuck is that???

In summary, the VB language makes programming harder than it has to be.

[joe mamma]

Oh yeah. . .

If VBSUX was so great, why did Microsoft pay the guy who created delphi to
come on board and create C#???

Why? Because delphi blows VBSUX away!

Shoot the VBSUX team. They are the cause of most of the worlds problems!!!

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

joe mamma <jo******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

Oh yeah. . .

If VBSUX was so great, why did Microsoft pay the guy who created delphi to
come on board and create C#???

Why? Because delphi blows VBSUX away!

Shoot the VBSUX team. They are the cause of most of the worlds problems!!!

Joe, please stop this. There really is *no* need to abuse either VB
programmers or the VB development team. I don't know what your purpose
in making these statements is, but I can see no positive effect they
could possibly have.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[thiru]

In my case its reverse. Is there any problem for c# developers in future
because previously I developed in vb and now in c#.
"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Kevin Spencer]

> My response, 'If you dont know, you wouldn't understand. . . Can I talk to

your clients??? And while I steal your business, take a look at delphi.'
With that "logic," and the emotional religious zeal you possess, you aren't
likely to be stealing anyone's business any time soon.
Microsoft, take your VB development team out back and shoot them. . . and
then shoot their mothers for bearing them! Protect the gene pool and shoot
their sisters, too!!!
Considering that Microsoft is the most powerful software company in the
world, it might be logical to assume that they know a bit more than you do.
When one does not understand something, presuming that it is a stupid idea
is a stupid mistake.

I have often mulled over the VB issue, and am not at all convinced that
Microsoft has made mistakes in that area. The biggest problem it has caused
is the proliferation of "less-than-professional" software developers in the
world, due to its ease of use. However, as I have thought the issue over,
there are levels of development in the software development world. Some
people need to write operating systems, and need to know everything down to
the machine level, and these people are rare. They make developers like me,
and developers like you, look like morons by comparison. At the other end,
you have users, who need to tweak their software to perform specific tasks,
and who may be able to "program" at the Macro level. Between these 2
extremes, you have a vast gradient of development needs and skill levels.
And there is a fairly vast gadient of pay grades as well to go along with
it.

Simple because someone knows less than you do about one thing or another
doesn't make you "superior" to someone else, any more than being taller than
another person makes you "superior" to another person. And why should an
employer who needs, for example, a relatively simple web interface to
display reports, pay 100K+ to an OS-level developer to perform the task?

The problem that was caused by VB is not really a problem at all. If there
is confusion in the market place, the confusion is not caused by VB; it is
caused by the ignorance of the employers. It distressed me when VB
developers began to move to C#, thus, in a sense, "muddying the waters," and
for a time, there was some inconsistency in pay levels for developers having
different skill levels, due to a mistaken impression on the part of
employers that the programming language used was an indicator of skill
level. But again, that was the mistake of the employers.

I am now in a position where I participlate in the evaluation and hiring of
developers from time to time. I know what questions to ask, and what to look
for. What programming language is used is not a criteria where I am
concerned. There are hacks that use every programming language in existence.
But I do look at their code. Regardless of the language used, good code is
good code. Good logic is good logic. And I find, for example, a good number
of holes in yours. I know I wouldn't hire you. I would tell you to come back
after a few more years.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"joe mamma" <jo******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:34**********************************@microsof t.com... "alYsa" wrote:

I think people that were developing with VB should not be developers at
all.
:)
There is some truth in that - cause they are rooted so much in bad
methodologies and crap code - that they are very useless in understanding
proper OO programming. So if they use vb.net - then nothing changes -
they do
the same crap procedural code - just they think that they are programming
OO
cause vb.net supposed to be OO language.
So in my opinion every VB developer should go to C# - so they would
forget
everything they knew about VB - it does not work that way as it used to.

Alysa, you are so correct! I think I am in love!!!

VBSUX was the worst peiece of crap over unleashed. The syntax led to
worthless code. the VB.Not syntax perpetuates the sin!

look at the syntax for declaring variables to see the problem. . .

I think 'Give me an interger called foo set to bar:

C#:
int foo = bar

I dont think "dimension some memory called foo that will hold an integer
and
store bar in it":

VB.Not:
dim foo as integer = bar

Now look at the IDE's -

C#: I can drop a control on a form in c# and go directly to the property
window| events tab and double click and create an event.

VB.NOT: drop a control, switch to code, select the control from the combo
at
the right top. . . soll through the events for the control in the combo on
the right. what a pain in the frickin a$$

Can we talk about VBSUX developers (and I use the word loosly) for a
second?
9 out of 10 of them were totally confused by databinding and are going to
hate .net. Most of these morons were opening recordsets and itereating
though
the recordsets and loading the values directly into their controls. What
idiots!!!!

Also, there were things you simply couldn't do in VBSUX. I won't
elaborate,
just trust me. . . you couldn't do it. Ok you forced me - Form
inheritance,
multithreading sophisticated COM+ development. 'But how often do we really
need that?' you might counter. . .

My response, 'If you dont know, you wouldn't understand. . . Can I talk to
your clients??? And while I steal your business, take a look at delphi.'

hmmm. . . didn't Microsoft pay the guy who developed the far superior
delphi
a shitload of money to leave borland and come on board to develop .net???

Microsoft, take your VB development team out back and shoot them. . . and
then shoot their mothers for bearing them! Protect the gene pool and shoot
their sisters, too!!!

[Kevin]

Joe,

I have read your post and have realised that under the covers you are
an exceptional developer. Maybe you should try and get yourself a .Net
developer position instead of maintaining VB6 code. I'm actually
getting sick and tired of idiots like yourself who have no clue about
..Net and then come here and disrespect developers and the languages
they work in. Go away, buy a couple of .Net books, go on a couple of
..Net courses, and when you have finally gained a bit of experience on
the subject you are welcome to come back here and debate issues in a
constructive manner.

Kevin

[Benny Raymond]

I think it's really just a matter of opinion. I really like c# - I'm
not forced to code in it. My brother in law however really likes vb.net
and he's not forced to code in that.

I'm an ex vb developer... I can't say that I'll never go back, however
right now C# is great for me, it just feels better.

Kevin wrote:

I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.

[Kevin]

Benny,

Brilliant, I can't believe it. You are one of the few people who have
honestly answered the original post. As you can see the only way some
people answer this question is by comparing the 2 main languages on the
..Net framework. This was not my intention, my intention was to see how
many developers out there are forced to program in a language because
of Money, or because they will be dubbed true developers by a community
or because their companies have standarized on a language because of
marketing hype for example. You and your brother in law are truly
lucky, in a way, because you guys are working in a language that you
both enjoy!! Well Done.

Kevin

[AllAloneWithBooks]

Clipper, VB3, VB4,VB5,VB6, C# at first launch. Personnal choice to grow up.
Impossible to go back.
No technical reason to do it.
I loose liberty, control and confidence in VB code after work with C#
After this years in C#, VB code is ugly.
Good luck on your downgrade.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in.

[JamesKK]

You know; I did the route of QBasic, Pascal, some Fortran and even a little
COBOL in the last twenty or so years. What's interesting to me is that the
primary language builders are wanting to give the developers more and more
tools to use in order to craft great programs from the UI and back. We're
not limited to a small subset of the language anymore. If you have not been
at least exposed to the old, how can any of the other replies to this post be
negative about the new??? Both C# and VB.NET are robust and extremely
powerful. My company was using VB6 when I got here and I moved them up to
VB.NET. We had a couple of outsiders write code in C# that I am also
supporting and have found that I like the languages equally. As far as the
move back to VB.Net, the industry is going to go with where they have the
greatest selection. There are many more VB.Net Developers than C#.

"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

James,

In my opinon is yours one of the best answers in this message thread.
(I did not read them all)

Just *my* opinon of course.

Cor

[riscy]

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

As matter of interest, I heard that the .net framework library was
orginally written in C# (!).

It all down to personal perference really...because of the JIT, the
result outcome is the same.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Riscy,

Yes, and I would probably do that as well in C#.

In my opinon is for those things C# a better program language than VB.Net

As written just my opinion.

Cor

[wbradney]

Mike, that was well put, and matches my experiences on this topic almost
exactly.

Kevin, you seem to be itching for somebody to say it, so I'll be the one to
bite and make the contentious remark:

VB(v3-6) has of late started to be found out for the 'toy' language it is,
and programmers who can only claim VB on their resumes are not looked upon as
'serious' programmers. I happen to mostly disagree with this, but that's what
I hear and see all the time talking to programmers and managers in my field,
and there is a kernel of truth to it. When looking at resumes I'm looking for
a deep history of programming in several languages, with OO analysis and
design experience paramount. This person has likely used C/C++/Java
extensively. Someone who only has VB history is unlikely to make the short
list unless they can clearly demonstrate a SOFTWARE ENGINEERING mentality, vs
a WORDS-PER-MINUTE mentality. I'm sure my company is not the only one who
sees it this way.

I myself have my roots in C/C++ programming on VAX and Unix platforms, and
have also spent many years in VB(v3-6) and Java, and now .NET (notice I said
..NET and not C# or VB.Net, because I don't think it really matters). In all
that time the only periods where I felt that I was not really in control and
was using the 'Fisher-Price' language was when using VB(v3-6). .NET was like
a breath of fresh air. A real OO language + RAD + VM = productivity +
maintainability + reuse.

The key issues are as stated by Mike. I like C# specifically for those
things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.

"Mike Hofer" wrote:

"Kevin" wrote:

This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
language on the .Net framework.

There are a plethora of reasons to move from VB 6 or VB.NET to C#. For
myself, they include the following:

1.) Broadening my skillset. I *like* to learn knew technologies. I like
knowing several different languages, and being able to choose the one that's
most suitable for the job at hand.

2.) Operator overloading. Visual Basic doesn't support it. (Yet.) C# does.

3.) I already knew C++ and Java; the migration from Java to C# wasn't all
that steep.

4.) C# is far more typesafe than Visual Basic. Visual Basic allows you to be
less strict by omitting Option Strict. In a team environment, that can be a
huge source of difficult to track bugs. C# code is always strict.

5.) Coding in C# helps me to break many of the bad habits I developed over
the years as a sloppy Visual Basic developer, and which still cling to me.
Things like the use of the ubiquitous Left(), Right(), Mid(), Upper() and
Lower() functions. Also, Visual Basic .NET still has support for modules,
which promote the use of global variables. Global Variables == DOOOOOOOOOOM.
C# has no direct support for modules (that I'm aware of--someone please
correct me if I'm wrong so that I can avoid it like the plague). C# makes me
write better code, and design better software by avoiding constructs and
VB-specific features.

As far as the whole "herd mentality" thing goes, I think you could flip that
argument around with equal effectiveness. For years, companies pushed Visual
Basic as the one and only tool for development of software. VAST amounts of
software was written in Visual Basic and most of it, in my experience, was
*crap* developed by developers who had no formal training (myself included)
and which wasn't designed for growth, stability, testability, extensibility,
or any of the other core attributes that make for high quality software.
Maintaining that software has been the bane of my existence since 1991.

At any rate, a lot of VB followers joined the VB herd because it was the
popular thing to do. The "herd mentality" also is responsible for letting
ridiculous hold-overs from VB6 creep into .NET. (1-based collections? ReDim
takes the upper index as its argument?! Come on!!!)

Now, having said all that, it's worth pointing out that I am a huge fan of
VB.NET, and still use it every day. I am moving towards C# because I think it
will make me a better programmer by enforcing better coding standards. Does
that make VB.NET a crap tool? Of course not. Does moving to C# make me less
than a man? Allow me to clear that up for you.

Not only no, but HELL no.

[Kevin Spencer]

> I like C# specifically for those

things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach
problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.
Now, that is a concise expression of something of great importance. Like C,
C# is very strict, and the more powerful a technology is, the more strict it
ought to be.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"wbradney" <wb******@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:37**********************************@microsof t.com... Mike, that was well put, and matches my experiences on this topic almost
exactly.

Kevin, you seem to be itching for somebody to say it, so I'll be the one
to
bite and make the contentious remark:

VB(v3-6) has of late started to be found out for the 'toy' language it is,
and programmers who can only claim VB on their resumes are not looked upon
as
'serious' programmers. I happen to mostly disagree with this, but that's
what
I hear and see all the time talking to programmers and managers in my
field,
and there is a kernel of truth to it. When looking at resumes I'm looking
for
a deep history of programming in several languages, with OO analysis and
design experience paramount. This person has likely used C/C++/Java
extensively. Someone who only has VB history is unlikely to make the short
list unless they can clearly demonstrate a SOFTWARE ENGINEERING mentality,
vs
a WORDS-PER-MINUTE mentality. I'm sure my company is not the only one who
sees it this way.

I myself have my roots in C/C++ programming on VAX and Unix platforms, and
have also spent many years in VB(v3-6) and Java, and now .NET (notice I
said
.NET and not C# or VB.Net, because I don't think it really matters). In
all
that time the only periods where I felt that I was not really in control
and
was using the 'Fisher-Price' language was when using VB(v3-6). .NET was
like
a breath of fresh air. A real OO language + RAD + VM = productivity +
maintainability + reuse.

The key issues are as stated by Mike. I like C# specifically for those
things it *doesn't* allow, and that VB.Net does, because I approach
problems
primarily as a software engineer and not as a programmer.

"Mike Hofer" wrote:

"Kevin" wrote:

> This is actually what I was getting at in my original post.
> Why the move from vb 6 to c# in the first place? This just adds more
> complexity, not only a new enviroment but a new language syntax as
> well, can you imagine the buggy code in this situation. I think this is
> why ex vb developers are moving back to vb.net from c# for this exact
> same reason. Looks like you made the right decision moving from Visual
> C/C++ to C++.Net or C#, at least you are familiar and enjoy the c style
> syntax and all that needs to be done is to learn the enviroment and
> framework. Imagine if you had to go to VB.Net because you got paid more
> or your manager was under the impression that VB.Net is the native
> language on the .Net framework.

There are a plethora of reasons to move from VB 6 or VB.NET to C#. For
myself, they include the following:

1.) Broadening my skillset. I *like* to learn knew technologies. I like
knowing several different languages, and being able to choose the one
that's
most suitable for the job at hand.

2.) Operator overloading. Visual Basic doesn't support it. (Yet.) C#
does.

3.) I already knew C++ and Java; the migration from Java to C# wasn't all
that steep.

4.) C# is far more typesafe than Visual Basic. Visual Basic allows you to
be
less strict by omitting Option Strict. In a team environment, that can be
a
huge source of difficult to track bugs. C# code is always strict.

5.) Coding in C# helps me to break many of the bad habits I developed
over
the years as a sloppy Visual Basic developer, and which still cling to
me.
Things like the use of the ubiquitous Left(), Right(), Mid(), Upper() and
Lower() functions. Also, Visual Basic .NET still has support for modules,
which promote the use of global variables. Global Variables ==
DOOOOOOOOOOM.
C# has no direct support for modules (that I'm aware of--someone please
correct me if I'm wrong so that I can avoid it like the plague). C# makes
me
write better code, and design better software by avoiding constructs and
VB-specific features.

As far as the whole "herd mentality" thing goes, I think you could flip
that
argument around with equal effectiveness. For years, companies pushed
Visual
Basic as the one and only tool for development of software. VAST amounts
of
software was written in Visual Basic and most of it, in my experience,
was
*crap* developed by developers who had no formal training (myself
included)
and which wasn't designed for growth, stability, testability,
extensibility,
or any of the other core attributes that make for high quality software.
Maintaining that software has been the bane of my existence since 1991.

At any rate, a lot of VB followers joined the VB herd because it was the
popular thing to do. The "herd mentality" also is responsible for letting
ridiculous hold-overs from VB6 creep into .NET. (1-based collections?
ReDim
takes the upper index as its argument?! Come on!!!)

Now, having said all that, it's worth pointing out that I am a huge fan
of
VB.NET, and still use it every day. I am moving towards C# because I
think it
will make me a better programmer by enforcing better coding standards.
Does
that make VB.NET a crap tool? Of course not. Does moving to C# make me
less
than a man? Allow me to clear that up for you.

Not only no, but HELL no.

[JJJingleHeimerSchmitt]

I am a big fan of people that shout about what is wrong in forums. Why they
hate this or that...why they are so cool... and how we should not even be in
the same forum with them. By that I mean, these are the people that make my
stop reading an interesting post b/c they are so busy letting everyone know
why they are sooo cool.

Now...to why I started reading this post in the first place. I started
developing in college with VB6, some standard sql, and did web design to pay
the bills (buy beer).

I used vb.net b/c that is what our company used when I started developing
here. I made the push for us to have the choice. The developers that
orignally worked in vb6 still like vb.net better, but they are opening upto
C#.

I am one of the few developers that started in VB6 and migrated to C# on my
own accord. I am not that great at either one...but feel I am making a
quicker track up the learning curve in C# than I did in VB. In a simple
simile, vb is like English and C# is like math. This is this. Do this. In VB,
I feel like I am writing a story... Let me tell you about my variable.

I do not agree with those that persist that VB is easier to read. VB is
easier for you to read for the same reason English is easier than Swahili
(sp?) for me to read. I don't sprechete the linguite.

I also use ReSharper and that enables me to run circles around what I could
do in VB productivity wise. That might add to my bias...but it comes down to
adapt or become extinct. Our developers have the option...maybe that is what
the whiners are crying about... your big bad boss won't let you choose.

Instead of going through forums blasting people for liking one or the other,
why don't you take the time to learn the other and see what it all about? I
did. That's

Paper or Plastic? They both hold groceries. They both have strengths. But if
someone held a gun to my head and told me to choose... I would think they
were silly and tell them to pi$$ off.

[Mike Hofer]

ri***@onetel.com wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.
There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

The question is, "How many of them are worth their salt?"
As matter of interest, I heard that the .net framework library was
orginally written in C# (!).
The Base Class Libraries are, indeed, written in C#.
It all down to personal perference really...because of the JIT, the
result outcome is the same.

Exactly. That's the point of having .NET support multiple languages: it
allows the developer to leverage his existing skillsets so that he can
be as productive as possible as fast as possible.

As for the compiler, you're MOSTLY right. If you write a "Hello, World"
program in C# and VB.NET, then compile them, the IL does differ a
little bit, but not enough to be worried about. You can see the
differences by viewing the code in ILDASM.

I imagine that in very large applications, it might be noticible. But
they'd have to be really big. And I'd further hazard a guess that in
the end, it all averages out.

Which brings us back to your point. Pick the language you like, and run
with it. :)

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Mike Hofer <kc********@gmail.com> wrote:

ri***@onetel.com wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

That's not what was stated. What was stated was that there were more
*VB.NET* programmers than C# programmers. There may be more VB
programmers, but not all of them have moved to VB.NET, as I understand
it. Many have stayed on VB6, many have moved to VB.NET, and many have
move to C#. I don't know what the proportions involved are - do you?

<snip>

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Mike Hofer]

Jon wrote:

Mike Hofer <kc********@gmail.com> wrote:

ri***@onetel.com wrote:

I perfer C# since it easier to read code and much less typo.

I found it hard to accepts there is more VB.NET developers than C#.

There have been VB developers since 1991. C# didn't exist until .NET
came out (2002?). So, yeah. There are a LOT more VB programmers.

That's not what was stated. What was stated was that there were more
*VB.NET* programmers than C# programmers. There may be more VB
programmers, but not all of them have moved to VB.NET, as I understand
it. Many have stayed on VB6, many have moved to VB.NET, and many have
move to C#. I don't know what the proportions involved are - do you?

You're right. I missed that. Thanks for the correction.

I don't think *anyone* likely has the definitive number of VB.NET vs.
C# programmers. It would be an interesting percentage, whatever it
was. Also, how many companies have flat out refused to move forward?
How many initially refused, but have given in? How many were early
adopters? How many adopted but went back?

I'd be interested in knowing all of that. I wonder where I'd have to go
to find it.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Mike,

As Jon do have as well not any statistics. However maybe it is giving an
idea that in the beginning of VBNet we saw in the VBNet newsgroup texts as:
"I did not like VBNet in the beginning, however now they should have to pull
me back, while I am loudly screaming by my hairs to get me working with VB6
again".

This kind of text we see not anymore. There was a week ago a message linked
from the VB6 newsgroup, to open a discussion about that to the VBNet
newsgroup. In my opinion are the reactions much more pro VBNet than in past.

In my opinion becomes the let say VB6 advocacy a minority (however it is a
strong force so they are still struggling).

As said all only my opinion.

Cor

[Isaiah D. Williams [VB MVP]]

VB has several new features such as the My object. VB will continue to evolve
into a language that is used for both simple and enterprise applications.

As it stand right now there are few differences between C# and VB. They are
basically the same language overall, the real difference is the syntax.
However, the future releases of C#/VB we all will see each language go down a
different road.
--
Thank you, Isaiah D. Williams
vbCity Leader, http://www.vbCity.com
Microsoft VB MVP
"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

[jack0fshad0ws]

been developing in asp/vbscript and vb starting from qbasic to vb6.. after
switching to c# i have never looked back. i find c# syntax among other
language features much more elegant and readable..
cheers
"Kevin" wrote:

I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?