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C# developers going back to vb.net

P: n/a
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #1
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132 Replies


P: n/a

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
.Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?


Well, I enjoy C# more than I do VB.Net. I originally started development in
QBasic then moved to C/C++ on *nix. From there I learned Visual Basic and
moved on to the .Net platform and learned VB.Net and C#. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which means less typing...
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

Mythran

Nov 17 '05 #2

P: n/a
> Well, I enjoy C# more than I do VB.Net. I originally started development in
QBasic then moved to C/C++ on *nix. From there I learned Visual Basic and
moved on to the .Net platform and learned VB.Net and C#. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which means less typing...
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

Mythran

Wow you've been back and forth, QBasic -> C/C++ -> Visual Basic -> C#.

I disagree with your 'less typing' statement in some respect as Then's,
End If's and even End Sub End Function are implemented for you as you
enter to the next line. Even Catch and Finally is automatically coded
for you as you hit enter after a Try statement.

I do agree with your statement about look and feel, this is exactly the
point I'm trying to make. I think look and feel is important as it, in
my mind, makes you a more productive developer because you feel
comfortable with the syntax.

But I can't help wondering if ex vb6 developers now working in C# would
be more productive going back to vb.net for this exact same reason. I
know I am.

Nov 17 '05 #3

P: n/a
>. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which >means less typing...
Actually, the IDE 'types' all this anyhow, and
does a real good job of aligning it too.
So this is not really an issue.
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

May look like C/C++, but it's really quite different.
Type safety in C#, is one very much appreciated
difference.

Roger
Nov 17 '05 #4

P: n/a
Couldn't type safety be implemented by turning Option Strict On.

Nov 17 '05 #5

P: n/a
Kevin
Couldn't type safety be implemented by turning Option Strict On.

Yes, but that's VB.

I was comparing type safety in C/C++, to C#

Good day,
Roger
Nov 17 '05 #6

P: n/a

Kevin wrote:

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net.


I've developed in VB, VB.net, C, C shell, and various other languages,
but my main base is C and C-like languages (php, perl, etc).

Learning .net, I get to play with both VB.net and C#.net, and I have to
say, I sure hope it remains a viable option, because I never much liked
VB and it hasn't changed much. LOL

IMO, people who learned VB before C prefer VB.net and people who
learned C before VB prefer C#.
I don't think it really comes down to any more than that, regardless of
what they attempt to justify it with. But feel free to correct me. :)

(whoever came up with "on error resume next" needs to die a slow and
painful death caused by ingrown toenails...)

Nov 17 '05 #7

P: n/a
Having used various languages over the years (like most programmers) such as
Cobol, VB6, Perl, KSH, C, C++ and C#, etc. I just prefer c# over them all,
and its not just one or two things you can point to. But that is me.
Others will find VB.Net more to their taste and that is great. Pick the one
you like and use that.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
.Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #8

P: n/a
It's all a matter of what you want to do with your life.
Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.
You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net, and certain types of control are difficult to
manage with VB.Net. But if you want to develop at a high level, and don't
like or need to get down to the nitty-gritty, and you don't have much
ambition, VB.Net is probably a good language for you.

There are all kinds of programmers in the world. Some of us work at a low
level, and some of us work at a high level. And everywhere in-between. At a
high level, it doesn't matter much. But my job, for example, requires some
fairly low-level stuff, and I like it that way. I'm something of a power
freak when it comes to programming. So, I would not think about going to
VB.Net. But for many people, programming is just a job. They do it for the
money. And for them, the easiest way is the best way.

There was a serious move to C# among VB.Net programmers, and it ended up
muddying the water a bit in terms of hiring. I think anyone wanting to move
back to VB.Net is probably thinking along some very helpful lines for
everyone involved.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
.Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #9

P: n/a
There are more programmers in the world who cannot afford Visual Studio than
those that can. Command line copiles with notepad as the editor of choice is
surprisingly popular.

C# is a more type-efficient language.

--
Bob Powell [MVP]
Visual C#, System.Drawing

Ramuseco Limited .NET consulting
http://www.ramuseco.com

Find great Windows Forms articles in Windows Forms Tips and Tricks
http://www.bobpowell.net/tipstricks.htm

Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ
http://www.bobpowell.net/faqmain.htm

All new articles provide code in C# and VB.NET.
Subscribe to the RSS feeds provided and never miss a new article.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Well, I enjoy C# more than I do VB.Net. I originally started development
in
QBasic then moved to C/C++ on *nix. From there I learned Visual Basic
and
moved on to the .Net platform and learned VB.Net and C#. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which means less
typing...
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

Mythran

Wow you've been back and forth, QBasic -> C/C++ -> Visual Basic -> C#.

I disagree with your 'less typing' statement in some respect as Then's,
End If's and even End Sub End Function are implemented for you as you
enter to the next line. Even Catch and Finally is automatically coded
for you as you hit enter after a Try statement.

I do agree with your statement about look and feel, this is exactly the
point I'm trying to make. I think look and feel is important as it, in
my mind, makes you a more productive developer because you feel
comfortable with the syntax.

But I can't help wondering if ex vb6 developers now working in C# would
be more productive going back to vb.net for this exact same reason. I
know I am.

Nov 17 '05 #10

P: n/a
Kevin wrote:
The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering
how many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually
like to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to
use vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.


I'm somewhat surprised that no one has brought this up...

In the 1.0 and 1.1 world, the differences between the 3 primary .Net
languages were slight. And this was because they (the language developers)
were all focused on making the languages work in .Net.

Now, with 2.0 coming out, the languages are starting to go the path of
specialization within .Net. Each language is intended to provide
specialized capabilities to it's niche.

If I remember correctly, they are:

VB: Rapid Application Development, with constructs like My and Edit and
Continue to allow the developer to be efficient in doing a quick job of
putting together a prototype. (This is also intended to be the easiest to
do UI work, but, I doubt you'll see a difference.)

C#: Back end business coding. Perfect for day-to-day business objects and
the like. With the addition of generics, (even though this is a general
..Net feature) the ability to generate specialized business objects from
generic patterns will be greatly enhanced.

C++ (I forget what the moniker for this is now... used to be Managed C++,
but I think it's something else now): This is supposed to be the FAST
language. Doing something that's called a million times per second and it's
core to your code? You should do it in C++. The optimizers here are
intended to be the best of breed. Additionally, with the abilities to go
from native C++ to Managed C++, you can incorporate legacy capabilities into
..Net easily.

That's as best as I can remember from some article I read ages ago.
Presumably someone will correct me where I've misremembered.

So, as for your question, if you see yourself as a RAD kind of guy, then VB
sounds like your tool.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
Nov 17 '05 #11

P: n/a
Kevin Spencer <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote:
Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.


You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net


You can't do unmanaged code in C# either. You can write *unsafe* code,
but it's still managed.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 17 '05 #12

P: n/a

Kevin Spencer wrote:
It's all a matter of what you want to do with your life.
Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.
You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net, and certain types of control are difficult to
manage with VB.Net. But if you want to develop at a high level, and don't
like or need to get down to the nitty-gritty, and you don't have much
ambition, VB.Net is probably a good language for you.


Nice to see the elitist attitude of some C++ developers is alive and
kicking in the .NET world. "Don't have much ambition", hoho.

There are all kinds of programmers in the world. Some of us work at a low
level, and some of us work at a high level. And everywhere in-between. At a
high level, it doesn't matter much. But my job, for example, requires some
fairly low-level stuff, and I like it that way. I'm something of a power
freak when it comes to programming. So, I would not think about going to
VB.Net. But for many people, programming is just a job. They do it for the
money. And for them, the easiest way is the best way.


Whereas 'power freaks' like to make things hard, deliberately...

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Nov 17 '05 #13

P: n/a
Personally I think it is a cultural thing and not a language thing.
Following is a pretty good article about the differences between the VB
culture and the C# culture. I agree with most points made.
http://www.cmswire.com/cms/featured-...cle-000591.php

Leon Lambert

Kevin wrote:
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
.Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #14

P: n/a
Technically, yes. But I was particularly referring to the use of pointers,
which I consider to be one of the most powerful aspects of C. Once you get
access to a pointer, you're talking about programming at light speed.
Pointers are dangerous, yes, but indispensible when used for certain types
of operations, such as working with graphics. For example, I have created
several custom filters for bitmaps, and classes which create bitmaps from
Digital Elevation Model data, for quick storage and delivery. In addition,
pointers are indispensible for working with binary file formats, both
formats that are not supported by the CLR, and formats which are supported
by the CLR, but in a limited way.

The VB capabilities for working with pointers are extremely limited. So much
so, in fact, as to be nearly useless, unless you want to grab a handle to a
window or something of that sort.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...
Kevin Spencer <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote:
> Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
> starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
> starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
> back to vb.


You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You
can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net


You can't do unmanaged code in C# either. You can write *unsafe* code,
but it's still managed.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Nov 17 '05 #15

P: n/a
> Nice to see the elitist attitude of some C++ developers is alive and
kicking in the .NET world. "Don't have much ambition", hoho.
It' not "elitist" at all. VB has limitations which C# does not have. If you
are satisfied with those limitations, you are less ambitious (as a
programmer, not as a person), by definition.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Larry Lard" <la*******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Kevin Spencer wrote:
It's all a matter of what you want to do with your life.
> Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
> starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
> starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
> back to vb.


You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You
can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net, and certain types of control are difficult
to
manage with VB.Net. But if you want to develop at a high level, and don't
like or need to get down to the nitty-gritty, and you don't have much
ambition, VB.Net is probably a good language for you.


Nice to see the elitist attitude of some C++ developers is alive and
kicking in the .NET world. "Don't have much ambition", hoho.

There are all kinds of programmers in the world. Some of us work at a low
level, and some of us work at a high level. And everywhere in-between. At
a
high level, it doesn't matter much. But my job, for example, requires
some
fairly low-level stuff, and I like it that way. I'm something of a power
freak when it comes to programming. So, I would not think about going to
VB.Net. But for many people, programming is just a job. They do it for
the
money. And for them, the easiest way is the best way.


Whereas 'power freaks' like to make things hard, deliberately...

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Nov 17 '05 #16

P: n/a
> So, as for your question, if you see yourself as a RAD kind of guy, then
VB sounds like your tool.
Well, Reginald, that USED to be true. But not with C# and Visual Studio.Net.
You can drag and drop all day long, and the same classes are available to C#
as to VB.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Reginald Blue" <Re***********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dh**********@trsvr.tr.unisys.com... Kevin wrote:
The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering
how many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually
like to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to
use vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.


I'm somewhat surprised that no one has brought this up...

In the 1.0 and 1.1 world, the differences between the 3 primary .Net
languages were slight. And this was because they (the language
developers) were all focused on making the languages work in .Net.

Now, with 2.0 coming out, the languages are starting to go the path of
specialization within .Net. Each language is intended to provide
specialized capabilities to it's niche.

If I remember correctly, they are:

VB: Rapid Application Development, with constructs like My and Edit and
Continue to allow the developer to be efficient in doing a quick job of
putting together a prototype. (This is also intended to be the easiest to
do UI work, but, I doubt you'll see a difference.)

C#: Back end business coding. Perfect for day-to-day business objects
and the like. With the addition of generics, (even though this is a
general .Net feature) the ability to generate specialized business objects
from generic patterns will be greatly enhanced.

C++ (I forget what the moniker for this is now... used to be Managed C++,
but I think it's something else now): This is supposed to be the FAST
language. Doing something that's called a million times per second and
it's core to your code? You should do it in C++. The optimizers here are
intended to be the best of breed. Additionally, with the abilities to go
from native C++ to Managed C++, you can incorporate legacy capabilities
into .Net easily.

That's as best as I can remember from some article I read ages ago.
Presumably someone will correct me where I've misremembered.

So, as for your question, if you see yourself as a RAD kind of guy, then
VB sounds like your tool.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]

Nov 17 '05 #17

P: n/a
"Roger" <ro***@pcsrevenuecontrol.com> wrote in message
news:ed****************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which >means less

typing...
Actually, the IDE 'types' all this anyhow, and
does a real good job of aligning it too.
So this is not really an issue.


Yeah, but it looks like "english", so any half-wit can read and understand
the code. The harder it is to understand, the less likely you can become
unemployed ;)
Nov 17 '05 #18

P: n/a
BTW, Jon, I did not mean to imply (in my previous reply) that the
distinction between "unmanaged" and "unsafe" is unimportant. Terms mean
things, and I will take your correction to heart. However, the distinction
between C# and VB.net is not insignificant either, in terms of what you can
do with either language, at least for someone in my position. That was the
point I was making.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...
Kevin Spencer <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote:
> Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
> starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
> starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
> back to vb.


You put your finger on it right there - "not that different." In fact, C#
and VB.Net ARE different, in terms of what you can do with them. You
can't
do unmanaged code in VB.Net


You can't do unmanaged code in C# either. You can write *unsafe* code,
but it's still managed.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Nov 17 '05 #19

P: n/a

"Roger" <ro***@pcsrevenuecontrol.com> wrote in message
news:ed****************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which >means less

typing...
Actually, the IDE 'types' all this anyhow, and
does a real good job of aligning it too.
So this is not really an issue.


Hrm, not in my IDE :) I use the VS.Net IDE and turned off all
autocompletion...for one reason, in VB.Net, I do not use the keyword "Then".
So my if's are like the following:

If True
DoSomething()
End If

Why the extra typing? Why the extra "Then"? Don't need it...compiler
doesn't need it...why have it automatically insert it for ya when it's just
"extra" wording?

Aligning? I like things aligned to my specifications, not .Net's. So I
turned that off too. My tabbing is 4 spaces (not tabs) and even my region
blocks are spaced differently. In .Net 1.0 and 1.1 (framework versions), I
couldn't really change things to how I wanted them and keep auto-completion
and auto-formatting on. But now in the 2.0 world, it looks much better. I
can specify a LOOOOOT more options...and this makes both languages even
better to work with (using the .Net IDE).
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

May look like C/C++, but it's really quite different.
Type safety in C#, is one very much appreciated
difference.

Type safety ... hmmm...

:)

Mythran

Nov 17 '05 #20

P: n/a

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Well, I enjoy C# more than I do VB.Net. I originally started development
in
QBasic then moved to C/C++ on *nix. From there I learned Visual Basic
and
moved on to the .Net platform and learned VB.Net and C#. I just like C#,
the syntax is less wordy (no Then's or End If's), which means less
typing...
and I really like the way it looks (looks and feels like C/C++).

Mythran

Wow you've been back and forth, QBasic -> C/C++ -> Visual Basic -> C#.


lol the real, almost-full as much as I can recall, list is:

* QuickBasic (first language, loved it...until I learned it wasn't the only
programming language)...
* Baby C (what I call baby C is GNU C/C++ we used during the BBS age to
create doors, such as MUD's :p, miss those)...
* Perl (Another language I used for non-BBS MUDS for external management
utilities such as converting the player files to online-web files)
* Java ("" "" "" "")
* JavaScript (who doesn't know this one?)
* VBScript (who uses this nowadays? The newsgroups are not quite, but
seemingly dead)...
* Small (Smaller version of the C/C++ engine, more like javascript is to
java, Small is to C/C++..used as a gaming component [Half-Life 2])
* VB/VC++ (yeah, we've all been there)
* VB.Net/C# (yay, getting there)
and now, the most current language with all the greatest coding elements and
"oohs" and "ahhs".....
COBOL :)

Heh, yeah, backtracked on that last one. I'm just recently learned COBOL
for my current job (been trying to learn it for 4 years now, just now they
put me on projects that have me converting programs away from COBOL to
ASP.Net using VB.Net backend....why not Cobol.Net? It does exist...)
I disagree with your 'less typing' statement in some respect as Then's,
End If's and even End Sub End Function are implemented for you as you
enter to the next line. Even Catch and Finally is automatically coded
for you as you hit enter after a Try statement.
Only if you 1.) don't use notepad/generic text-editor or 2.) don't turn the
option off.
I do agree with your statement about look and feel, this is exactly the
point I'm trying to make. I think look and feel is important as it, in
my mind, makes you a more productive developer because you feel
comfortable with the syntax.

Yup :)
Mythran

Nov 17 '05 #21

P: n/a
I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.

Nov 17 '05 #22

P: n/a
> I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.


Hmm...I wish I could say the same. On my off-time, I develop in the
languages I choose to, and learn those I don't know. At work, I am forced
to develop in only the languages they dictate. It is a secure job, and pays
well with great benefits, and so I do the work, regardless of how happy I
am. But, unlike most "developers", when I am at home...I get on my
computers and laptop and hack away some more but in C# and now (learning
PascalScript more and Pascal), Pascal.

I have read 2 articles today, one from
http://www.cmswire.com/cms/featured-...cle-000591.php
and another from JDJ magazine. One says VB.Net is better, the other is more
clear on why one is better than the other depending on the developer,
application, and situation.

Anywho, have fun :)

Mythran

Nov 17 '05 #23

P: n/a
Mythran,
.why not Cobol.Net? It does exist...)


Two reasons (there are more)

Cobol is based on non human interaction with the system (it is still done
however not in the majority of the programs).

Cobol is created with memory saving in mind (not really needed now anymore)

However it is still the best structured self documenting program language
that I ever saw

The last is my personal idea.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #24

P: n/a
> Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.
I thought I pretty well explained why I work in C#. It does what I need it
to do. VB does not. I sometimes need pointers, and unsafe code in the apps I
work on. There are other reasons as well. It is concise. It looks more like
what is actually going on in the computer (math). And I love programming
power. I love to know what's going on deep in the bowels of my app, and I
love to make it more efficient, fast, and well-architected. I will program
until the day I die. I don't do it for a living. I do it for the love of
programming. I happen to make a very good living out of it, but when I no
longer need the money, I will continue to do it. I often program just for
"fun." I love to learn. So, I want the biggest programming "bang" for my
buck, the language which gives me the most options, the greatest programming
power. With C#, you can go about as low as you need or want to. With VB you
cannot. Note that I am not saying this is what everyone "should" do, nor do
I claim that it is somehow a "better" language; it is merely what I prefer
because I am what I am. Different strokes for different folks. Again, I
thought I made that clear. But people hear what they want to hear, and that
is their choice. As for me, I want to hear what is true, and not try to fill
in the blanks with my own skewed perspective of things. And that is one of
the things I love about computers. They are incapable of interpreting, and
therefore incapable of misinterpreting. They are, therefore, reliable, and
"brutally" honest.
And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.
Again, I thought I made that point clear. There are different kinds of
ambitions. Some of us aspire to be rich. Some aspire to be loved. Some
aspire to be feared. I simply aspire to be the best programmer I can be, and
that is my ambition. In the context of programming, settling for less than
the most possible capabilities in a programming language is not ambitious,
any more than in the context of wanting to be loved, one can be said to be
ambitious if one settles for merely being well-liked. I tried to put the
statement into context. Perhaps I was ambiguous. I hope I have sufficiently
clarified my remark.
Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.
Culture is important to some. But I seem to recall you saying the following:
The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
Personally, I hope I have made it clear that I feel the way I do, not
because of any cultural or peer pressure, but simply because I am what I am,
and C# is the logical choice for someone like myself. My Uncle Chutney has a
saying: "Neither a follower nor a lender be." I have aspired to live up to
that concept. You, on the other hand, it seems, came here asking for the
opinions of others. Doesn't that indicate a certain interest in those
opinions? And why would one be interested in the opinions of others if one
cared not what others thought?
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.
Good for you. Perhaps a good start would be to stop caring about and
soliciting the opinions of others in the culture you seem to want to defy.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.

Nov 17 '05 #25

P: n/a
Kevin,

Some people say that the president of the US is the best and others say it
is the one from France and probably even more people have a very other
opinion about that.

(Which proofs by the way nothing about which one is the best)

:-)

Cor
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> schreef in bericht
news:On**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.


I thought I pretty well explained why I work in C#. It does what I need it
to do. VB does not. I sometimes need pointers, and unsafe code in the apps
I work on. There are other reasons as well. It is concise. It looks more
like what is actually going on in the computer (math). And I love
programming power. I love to know what's going on deep in the bowels of my
app, and I love to make it more efficient, fast, and well-architected. I
will program until the day I die. I don't do it for a living. I do it for
the love of programming. I happen to make a very good living out of it,
but when I no longer need the money, I will continue to do it. I often
program just for "fun." I love to learn. So, I want the biggest
programming "bang" for my buck, the language which gives me the most
options, the greatest programming power. With C#, you can go about as low
as you need or want to. With VB you cannot. Note that I am not saying this
is what everyone "should" do, nor do I claim that it is somehow a "better"
language; it is merely what I prefer because I am what I am. Different
strokes for different folks. Again, I thought I made that clear. But
people hear what they want to hear, and that is their choice. As for me, I
want to hear what is true, and not try to fill in the blanks with my own
skewed perspective of things. And that is one of the things I love about
computers. They are incapable of interpreting, and therefore incapable of
misinterpreting. They are, therefore, reliable, and "brutally" honest.
And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.


Again, I thought I made that point clear. There are different kinds of
ambitions. Some of us aspire to be rich. Some aspire to be loved. Some
aspire to be feared. I simply aspire to be the best programmer I can be,
and that is my ambition. In the context of programming, settling for less
than the most possible capabilities in a programming language is not
ambitious, any more than in the context of wanting to be loved, one can be
said to be ambitious if one settles for merely being well-liked. I tried
to put the statement into context. Perhaps I was ambiguous. I hope I have
sufficiently clarified my remark.
Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.


Culture is important to some. But I seem to recall you saying the
following:
The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'


Personally, I hope I have made it clear that I feel the way I do, not
because of any cultural or peer pressure, but simply because I am what I
am, and C# is the logical choice for someone like myself. My Uncle Chutney
has a saying: "Neither a follower nor a lender be." I have aspired to live
up to that concept. You, on the other hand, it seems, came here asking for
the opinions of others. Doesn't that indicate a certain interest in those
opinions? And why would one be interested in the opinions of others if one
cared not what others thought?
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.


Good for you. Perhaps a good start would be to stop caring about and
soliciting the opinions of others in the culture you seem to want to defy.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.


Nov 17 '05 #26

P: n/a
> Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.


I worked in non "{}" too (VB, ksh, cobol, etc). I like c# better - simple.
You like VB better. Great - use it.
This is about the same as asking if people like apples or oranges. Then
after they say apples, you don't believe them.
If you like oranges, eat em. Time to move on.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

Nov 17 '05 #27

P: n/a
"Kevin" wrote:
The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net.


Interestingly enough, I have to develop simultaneously in both c# and
vb.net, and I'd like to eliminate the vb.net stuff. I don't find that
there's anything significant that vb.net has that c# lacks in terms of
usability - it's mostly just syntax.

But vb.net has lots of extra words - which I just find distracting - not
helpful.
Nov 17 '05 #28

P: n/a
Brilliant Kevin,

Someone has finally stood up.

I can see you really look for real programming power.
You have obviously looked at C++\CLI by now, my guess is
you would probably be moving over to that very soon.

Congrats.

Nov 17 '05 #29

P: n/a
Chuck,
nd I'd like to eliminate the vb.net stuff.


Are you serious, you have cut off the boxer his arms and legs to make him
equal to the cripple and now you found that the boxer is not a better
fighter than the cripple.

(Not telling with this, that C# is a cripple)

Really strange how some people react on these C# / VBNet questions in this
newsgroup, it is for me in a way if they are not sure and want to proof
themselves that there choose was right.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #30

P: n/a
My point was that I never made a qualitative ("best", for example) statement
about either language.

The fact that anyone PERCEIVED a qualitative statement says more about them
than it does about me.

John is 5 foot 9 inches tall.
Sally is 6 foot 1 inch tall.
I am 5 foot 10 inches tall.
I prefer to hang out with John. I don't feel comfortable around women who
are taller than I am.

Which one did I say was "best?"

We are all supposed to be programmers here. That means that we make our
living by logic. When we employ logic badly, we write bad code. The above is
a simple allegory for the statements I made. A logical analysis of those
statements leads to no conclusion regarding the quality of John, or the
quality of Sally. My qualitative impression of the 2 people was not
discussed. Only a single property of both people, which both people have, in
different amounts, was discussed. Their height was discussed because it is
based on their height, and my personal preferences, that I prefer to hang
out with John. In other words, if asked who I would rather hang out with, I
would say "John," and if asked to explain why, I would say "because I don't
feel comfortable around women who are taller than I am."

Now, someone with a particular axe to grind, could (illogically) come to the
conclusion that I am a sexist, or that I prefer the company of men, or that
I have a phobia of women who are larger than I am, or that I am a
homosexual. Would any of these assertions be true? Logically, it is
impossible to say, based on a logical analysis of the statements made.
Therefore, those assertions would be unreliable, and if held by someone who
makes their living by logic, would indicate a certain weakness in their
skill set. It would imply a greater probability that the person making the
assertion was likely to write bad code. In other words, it would provide
more information about the person who made the assertion; it would provide
no information about me.

Or, as my Uncle Chutney sez, "Ambiguity has a certain quality to it."

--

;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:ug**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Kevin,

Some people say that the president of the US is the best and others say it
is the one from France and probably even more people have a very other
opinion about that.

(Which proofs by the way nothing about which one is the best)

:-)

Cor
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> schreef in bericht
news:On**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.


I thought I pretty well explained why I work in C#. It does what I need
it to do. VB does not. I sometimes need pointers, and unsafe code in the
apps I work on. There are other reasons as well. It is concise. It looks
more like what is actually going on in the computer (math). And I love
programming power. I love to know what's going on deep in the bowels of
my app, and I love to make it more efficient, fast, and well-architected.
I will program until the day I die. I don't do it for a living. I do it
for the love of programming. I happen to make a very good living out of
it, but when I no longer need the money, I will continue to do it. I
often program just for "fun." I love to learn. So, I want the biggest
programming "bang" for my buck, the language which gives me the most
options, the greatest programming power. With C#, you can go about as low
as you need or want to. With VB you cannot. Note that I am not saying
this is what everyone "should" do, nor do I claim that it is somehow a
"better" language; it is merely what I prefer because I am what I am.
Different strokes for different folks. Again, I thought I made that
clear. But people hear what they want to hear, and that is their choice.
As for me, I want to hear what is true, and not try to fill in the blanks
with my own skewed perspective of things. And that is one of the things I
love about computers. They are incapable of interpreting, and therefore
incapable of misinterpreting. They are, therefore, reliable, and
"brutally" honest.
And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.


Again, I thought I made that point clear. There are different kinds of
ambitions. Some of us aspire to be rich. Some aspire to be loved. Some
aspire to be feared. I simply aspire to be the best programmer I can be,
and that is my ambition. In the context of programming, settling for less
than the most possible capabilities in a programming language is not
ambitious, any more than in the context of wanting to be loved, one can
be said to be ambitious if one settles for merely being well-liked. I
tried to put the statement into context. Perhaps I was ambiguous. I hope
I have sufficiently clarified my remark.
Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.


Culture is important to some. But I seem to recall you saying the
following:
The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'


Personally, I hope I have made it clear that I feel the way I do, not
because of any cultural or peer pressure, but simply because I am what I
am, and C# is the logical choice for someone like myself. My Uncle
Chutney has a saying: "Neither a follower nor a lender be." I have
aspired to live up to that concept. You, on the other hand, it seems,
came here asking for the opinions of others. Doesn't that indicate a
certain interest in those opinions? And why would one be interested in
the opinions of others if one cared not what others thought?
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.


Good for you. Perhaps a good start would be to stop caring about and
soliciting the opinions of others in the culture you seem to want to
defy.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
I think most of you guys have missed the topic totally, whenever this
question is asked it turns into a language comparison.
It has been proven that every great man in history has stood up in the
middle of the crowd so to speak and has gone against the grain and has
followed his heart.

The question was basically 'Have you followed like sheep' or 'Have done
what you want to do'
How many of you out there are man enough to stand up and forget about
the money, forget about the 'I work in C# because I'm regarded as a
real developer' or 'I work in C# because I'm embarrased to say I work
in vb' and work in the language that you love to work in.

Mythran, Roger, Nikki, William have posted good comments, something
along the line as 'I work in C# because I like the C style syntax
because I worked in C/C++ before'.

Kevin - You like to do the comparison thing, and this is good, but lets
forget about the comparison for a moment, why do you really work in C#,
is it the money or the syntax or were you forced to work in it.

Reginald - If you want to be a more rad type of guy then work in vb.
Are you indicating that c# isn't a rad tool. I think c# is just as rad
as vb.net.

Leon - Hit the nail on the head. It's very much a culture thing. Why is
it then that ex vb developers work in C#.

For myself I've worked in C# for 4 years now. I'm an ex vb developer.
Since I've started this project on VB.Net I actually wake up earlier in
the morning to get to work earlier as to write the next piece of code.
I started developing not because of the money nor the fact that I
thought I would become the best developer in the world but because I
liked software development and the language I wrote it in. I love to
change peoples lives.

I'm afraid to say that most ex vb developers use C# because they are
C++ wannabies not because they can change the world.

And what about the crap statement about vb.net developers not being
ambitious.

We all know that the languages are different and you can do this in one
and that in the other. If I'm missing something I need in vb I'll pop
over to c# and write it, or visa versa.

How many men are out there. (Includes the girls as well, just a figure
of speech)????
How many of you will go against the grain, because of what you love not
because of what you were told to love???

I for one will not be dicatated to any longer by someone who has no
idea about software development or why we started coding in the first
place.



Nov 17 '05 #31

P: n/a
Kevin,

Most is agreed by me, however you wrote this.
That means that we make our living by logic.


Logic can be subjective (as you showed), in the way we are handling it here
it has to be in my opinion objective.

Which means that when a choose is because of subject reasons, those reasons
have to be added and be in relation to the object.

(When you are in Holland you will probably be comfortable with woman as
Sally, a lot of nice looking woman here are that tall and you will not
recognize it, so even that subjective part can be important)

:-)

Just my opinion.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #32

P: n/a
Thanks Kevin, for understanding.

Actually, I prefer C# over C++. I find the syntax more elegant. It enhances
my productivity. And if I need any unsafe code, I can easily switch to C,
which was my first language, long ago.

C++ is an older implementation/derivation of C. It was designed for very
low-level access, BIOS/processor-level access, in fact. It was developed
prior to the advent of multi-tasking networked operating systems, and before
it was possible to get yourself into too much trouble with
BIOS/processor-level access. And, as computers advanced in capability and
complexity, as multi-tasking operating systems became standard, and the
Internet made almost everything require some sort of TCP network component,
OS's and programs became even more complex, and problems began to emerge.
Among these were memory leaks, due to allocated memory being overlooked and
never de-allocated, and problems with using memory that the operating system
didn't want to be used. And others as well, including file system conflicts,
etc. In other words, another level, or platform, above the operating system,
was a good idea. Whereas BIOS-level programming was fine when operating
systems did little but manage files, OS-level programming makes sense today.

The .Net platform is the best OS-level programming platform to be created to
date. Period. It is natively multi-threaded, and fully object-oriented, all
the way down to primitive data types, via boxing and unboxing. It uses
Garbage Collection to prevent memory leaks, and tends to discourage access
below the OS level. And the C# language was created along the same lines,
with the same syntax principles employed in the development of the C
language, and the C++ language after it. In other words, it is designed for,
and best-suited for the .Net platform, an environment which uses pointers
(under the hood) for everything, and direct member access is largely a thing
of the past.

Therefore, IMHO, the C# language is the best implementation/derivation of C
to come along. It is current, whereas C++ is not. C++ was designed for a
certain programming environment which simply doesn't exist in the .Net
platform, an environment which will eventually be for the most part
forgotten, just as punch cards are only occasionally and wistfully
remembered over a glass of beer these days.

The .Net implementation of C++ is NOT the original C++, although it
certainly looks a lot like it. I believe it was created to accomodate
programmers who have gotten used to the C++ syntax over many years, just as
VB.Net was created to accomodate programmers who have gotten used to VB over
many years. But C# was created as a new implementation of C, and designed
specifically with the .Net platform in mind, and according to the same
syntactical logic that was used to create C and C++. In other words, I feel
that C# is the "native" .Net language.

So, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.
"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
Brilliant Kevin,

Someone has finally stood up.

I can see you really look for real programming power.
You have obviously looked at C++\CLI by now, my guess is
you would probably be moving over to that very soon.

Congrats.

Nov 17 '05 #33

P: n/a
Kevin,
In other words, I feel that C# is the "native" .Net language.


About religions you can not discuss, you believe or you don't.

:-)

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #34

P: n/a

Kevin Spencer wrote:
[snip]
C++ is an older implementation/derivation of C. It was designed for very
low-level access, BIOS/processor-level access, in fact. It was developed
prior to the advent of multi-tasking networked operating systems, and before
it was possible to get yourself into too much trouble with
BIOS/processor-level access.


Thanks for reassuring me that I don't have to set too much store by
things you say.

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Nov 17 '05 #35

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" wrote:
Are you serious, you have cut off the boxer his arms and legs to make him
equal to the cripple and now you found that the boxer is not a better
fighter than the cripple.

(Not telling with this, that C# is a cripple)

Really strange how some people react on these C# / VBNet questions in this
newsgroup, it is for me in a way if they are not sure and want to proof
themselves that there choose was right.


I'm not sure what you mean by the boxer & cripple analogy. I don't find that
vb.net is a cripple compared to vb6 if that's what you're suggesting. Having
full featured object orientation in vb.net seems to me that it's a huge
improvement.

The feature that I find makes VB.net development a better experience than C#
is the background compilation and detection of errors while coding. But
that's an artifact of the IDE, not the language, and I think that many people
inappropriately argue over this issue as a language issue.

I've developed VB apps since version 3. During that time I also mastered
C++ with MFC and hated it compared to the simplicity of VB. But now that I
have two languages that're identical in features, for me the decision is
entirely based on the elegance and conciseness of the language. And C# wins
at being more concise.
Nov 17 '05 #36

P: n/a
I'm not sure what you mean by the boxer & cripple analogy. I don't find
that
vb.net is a cripple compared to vb6 if that's what you're suggesting.
This is from your message, I quoted it only partially.
Interestingly enough, I have to develop simultaneously in both c# and
vb.net, and I'd like to eliminate the vb.net stuff.


I understood from that, that you use in VBNet only parts that are as well in
C#, because the second sentence was direct behind "vb.net".

(Not using the microsoft.visualbasic namespace by instance).

Don't think that I have anything against C# by the way. I don't like not
honest comparing.

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #37

P: n/a
Kevin,

One more question, have you ever worked in Visual Basic?
I realised by your reply that you are a very 'c' orientated developer,
you must have been very excited when c# hit the market, this is why I
asked the question whether or not you will be using C++\CLI in the
future. This will give you even more power like deterministic
finalization for instance.

Nov 17 '05 #38

P: n/a
Yes, I agree with your statement, but the point I am trying to make is
if people like apples why do they pretend to like oranges because the
majority like oranges and actually they are dying for a nice juicy
apple.
I was actually complimenting you on your response because you were one
of the people who said I like c# because of this and that, not because
it has better features than another language. Also it's difficult to
believe people sometimes because it's in our nature to follow the
majority. I find the psycology behind it very interesting, this is why
I posted this question in the first place. You can see immediately that
some people jumped on the I like c# because it's better than vb
bandwagon, when there are many languages that are just as feature rich
on the .Net framework.

Nov 17 '05 #39

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" wrote:
I understood from that, that you use in VBNet only parts that are as well in
C#, because the second sentence was direct behind "vb.net".

(Not using the microsoft.visualbasic namespace by instance).

Don't think that I have anything against C# by the way. I don't like not
honest comparing.


I happen to believe that my comparisons are quite honest - and there's
virtually nothing in the visualbasic namespace that isn't elsewhere in the
framework. So I really don't think of that namespace making vb.net into a
boxer. Yes, there are a few features that are very handy when the need
arises, but those situations are rare, and often I could implement a bit of
code to do it myself just as easily. Even so, when comparing what vb.net has
vs C# when considering the whole framework, they're 99.95% equivalent.

For example, vb.net has the With keyword, which is a handy shorthand when
setting multiple properties on an object. C# has the Using statement which
automatically calls dispose on an object for you. I find that C#'s using
saves me a lot more typing and code than With, but your mileage may vary.

I'm curious about what you think it is that makes vb.net a boxer?
Nov 17 '05 #40

P: n/a
I taught myself C using a pirated copy of Borland C+ 2.0, which ran on DOS.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but you should bone up on your
history. Some of us lived through it.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Larry Lard" <la*******@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Kevin Spencer wrote:
[snip]
C++ is an older implementation/derivation of C. It was designed for very
low-level access, BIOS/processor-level access, in fact. It was developed
prior to the advent of multi-tasking networked operating systems, and
before
it was possible to get yourself into too much trouble with
BIOS/processor-level access.


Thanks for reassuring me that I don't have to set too much store by
things you say.

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

Nov 17 '05 #41

P: n/a
Yes, Kevin, I actually worked for about 6 years almost exclusively with ASP,
VBScript and VB. I had my own consulting business, and the web database
market was just emerging. In fact, prior to working with ASP, I spent a year
or so working with IDC.

I got very familiar with VBScript and VB, and had no problems with it. I
actually got very comfortable with it, and of course, it was the only RAD
language around. That was its greatest strength. But the advent of the .Net
platform opened up a world of greater possibilities, and I embraced it with
great enthusiasm. In the beginning I worked mainly with VB.Net, as I was in
a primarily ASP/VB shop. But that was about 3 years ago, and I eventually
(after changing jobs) was able to get to the point where I use C# almost
exclusively now. About 99% of the time, that is, except when I have to tweak
some legacy app that is still around here.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Kevin" <ke***@inatrice.co.za> wrote in message
news:11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegro ups.com...
Kevin,

One more question, have you ever worked in Visual Basic?
I realised by your reply that you are a very 'c' orientated developer,
you must have been very excited when c# hit the market, this is why I
asked the question whether or not you will be using C++\CLI in the
future. This will give you even more power like deterministic
finalization for instance.

Nov 17 '05 #42

P: n/a
Ow. My head hurts.

I have no problems with women of any kind. However, I am married now, so
it's really very moot!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eZ**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Kevin,

Most is agreed by me, however you wrote this.
That means that we make our living by logic.


Logic can be subjective (as you showed), in the way we are handling it
here it has to be in my opinion objective.

Which means that when a choose is because of subject reasons, those
reasons have to be added and be in relation to the object.

(When you are in Holland you will probably be comfortable with woman as
Sally, a lot of nice looking woman here are that tall and you will not
recognize it, so even that subjective part can be important)

:-)

Just my opinion.

Cor

Nov 17 '05 #43

P: n/a
> Yes, I agree with your statement, but the point I am trying to make is
if people like apples why do they pretend to like oranges because the
majority like oranges and actually they are dying for a nice juicy
apple.


If in fact that was the case. But I see no evidence that people who use c#
are actually dying to use VB instead, nor the reverse. I am sure one can
quote someone here or there on both sides. But my quess would be that most
people are using the language they prefer. That said, if I owned a big
project I would pick one and stick with one. Yes you can use both and let
people choose which one they like, but now you have two different languages
to deal with and people always have to juggle mental conversion even if they
know both. Imagine doing code reviews with two or three different languages
on the table. Have two or more sets of standards, etc, etc. So overall
productivity would suffer I would think. So fact is, some companies need to
make a choice and stick with it.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

Nov 17 '05 #44

P: n/a
As many others, in my job I have to go back and forth between C# and VB.NET
quite often. Originally coming from Turbo Pascal I never really found a "true
love" since the DOS days. My opinion is that C# is a cleaner more typesafe
language that in almost all of my projects beats VB.NET in shorter
development cycles and far less bugs. In my opinion C# will be THE language
in the future.
--
William Kahler
..NET Developer, MCSD
"Kevin" wrote:
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #45

P: n/a
Get over it Kevin ..... C# is a superior programming language. Embrace change
dude.

"Kevin" wrote:
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #46

P: n/a
Actually, I was a QBasic > VB6 > VB.NET developer and now I had the chance to
switch to C#, I was waiting the chance!!!

* C# syntex is derived from the mother of all languages C++ and that makes
it universal and not a language that only Microsoft developers know! If you
are an ASP.NET developer then you can write JavaScript in a similar way
without adding a "Then" to the "if" (not to mention PHP).
* if you are a common Java and .NET developer, maybe working on both
languages in the same time or migrating from a language to another, you woukd
enjoy C# versus VB.NET.
* C# is "Option Stric On" by default and there is no way to set it off (I'm
addressing lazy developers)
* You type less with C#!
* It is case-sensitive and senior developers might like to have same names
with different case!
* VB.NET bears some bad practices from VB6 like a string variable is empty
string by default, when creating an array you specify the top index versus
the count, etc...
* VB.NET developers that are from VB6 background tends to write code in the
same way they did with VB6 knowing that VB6 is OO based and VB.NET is OOP
language, so they give BAD reputation for the other non-OOB developers!!!

And the list goes on, do I need to say more? I hope I won't be forced to go
back to VB.NET, it sucks!!!

"Kevin" wrote:
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #47

P: n/a
Kevin,

C is almost equal to Unix an OS made especially to let a lot of students use
one computer (multi tasking) at the same time whithout having the change
that happens what students in that situation like to do the most.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_%28pr...ng_language%29

:-)

Cor
Nov 17 '05 #48

P: n/a
Adam,

Do you know Wikipedia, there is a lot stated wrong in your message

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
Cor

"Adam Tibi" <Adam Ti**@discussions.microsoft.com> schreef in bericht
news:87**********************************@microsof t.com...
Actually, I was a QBasic > VB6 > VB.NET developer and now I had the chance
to
switch to C#, I was waiting the chance!!!

* C# syntex is derived from the mother of all languages C++ and that makes
it universal and not a language that only Microsoft developers know! If
you
are an ASP.NET developer then you can write JavaScript in a similar way
without adding a "Then" to the "if" (not to mention PHP).
* if you are a common Java and .NET developer, maybe working on both
languages in the same time or migrating from a language to another, you
woukd
enjoy C# versus VB.NET.
* C# is "Option Stric On" by default and there is no way to set it off
(I'm
addressing lazy developers)
* You type less with C#!
* It is case-sensitive and senior developers might like to have same names
with different case!
* VB.NET bears some bad practices from VB6 like a string variable is empty
string by default, when creating an array you specify the top index versus
the count, etc...
* VB.NET developers that are from VB6 background tends to write code in
the
same way they did with VB6 knowing that VB6 is OO based and VB.NET is OOP
language, so they give BAD reputation for the other non-OOB developers!!!

And the list goes on, do I need to say more? I hope I won't be forced to
go
back to VB.NET, it sucks!!!

"Kevin" wrote:
I don't know if I should even start this topic but here goes.
I'm an ex vb6 developer, now developing in C#.
The reason why I started developing in C# is because the company that I
worked for at the time standarised on C#.

Many of my friends working in previous companies that I worked for are
starting to move back to VB.Net. When I asked them why, it seems that
the next release of VB.Net seems very promising and they kinda see
themselves in the same position I'm in. It seems that at the time when
..Net was first released many companies basically forced developers to
work in C# because as in my case the company they worked for
standarised on C#, why these companies did this is beyond me because
most of their developers were vb developers, I think it's because it
was marketed that C# was the main language to use on the .Net
Framework.

Now many companies as well as management in these companies are
starting to realise that vb.net is not that different from c# and are
starting to give their developers a choice and thus obviously the move
back to vb.

The reason why I'm posting this topic here is because I'm wondering how
many developers using c# are ex vb developers and would actually like
to develop in vb.net. I have actually convinced my superiors to use
vb.net as another language choice and they have agreed.

We have just started a new project in vb.net about 3 mths ago and I
must say that it's still a damn fun language to work in, I'm actually
enjoying my work again. Productivity couldn't be higher as other c# (ex
vb6) developers in my department have also wanted to go back.

Wondering how many of you out there would like to move back to the
lighter side of life?

Nov 17 '05 #49

P: n/a
Well, yes, if you want to be perfectly literal about it. Even MS DOS was
"multi-tasking" in a technical sense, and this amounts to nit-picking, which
may make one subjectively feel superior, but contributes nothing to the
topic.

The point I was making was that C++ was developed at a time when low-level
programming was much safer, and programming in general was much simpler. I
wrote programs in C for DOS that performed interrupt calls back in the day,
did direct disk writes, etc. This would be catastrophic today, for the vast
majority of programming tasks. That is inarguable, and topical.

Forgive me, but I am much too old for geek swagger. At this point in my
life, I prefer to be creating powerful software, rather than comparing the
length of my "hardware."

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Big things are made up of
lots of little things.

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:Or**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Kevin,

C is almost equal to Unix an OS made especially to let a lot of students
use one computer (multi tasking) at the same time whithout having the
change that happens what students in that situation like to do the most.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_%28pr...ng_language%29

:-)

Cor

Nov 17 '05 #50

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