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MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job?

P: n/a
MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang

Nov 16 '05 #1
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31 Replies


P: n/a
Lewis Lang wrote:
MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?


Diploma's in theory are proof you've taken the courses and read the
material well enough to produce proof at an exam you did read the
material well enough you understood what was explained in them.

They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to
get teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams
are full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up
in a help document and which don't represent true understanding the
material. (e.g. what's the value of a constant)

More and more the industry realizes that MCS* certifications aren't
proof you can program your way out of a paper bag. The reason for that
is that you get multiple choice questions on an exam, you didn't take
courses which required you to write software, design a system and really
think, apply knowledge how it is ment to be applied.

In short: if an employer requires an MCSD certification, I wouldn't
bother getting a job there. The reason is that the employer doesn't
undestand what's really important for the job.

That doesn't mean you can relax and just play games. You have to keep
educating yourself. So read the books. And more books. And above all,
write software by applying the knowledge. With that software you can
proof you understood what's important and you can show your potential
employer what you're able to do. That software can be anything, as long
as its done properly, well thought out and that it shows what you're
capable of doing. The fun part is: while writing that software you
really learn what the value is of knowledge distilled from a book.

good luck.

Frans

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nov 16 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
In short: if an employer requires an MCSD certification, I wouldn't bother
getting a job there. The reason is that the employer doesn't undestand
what's really important for the job.


I agree 100%. I've always equated MCP certification to driving lessons; they
don't teach you how to be a good driver, just how to pass your driving test.
Nov 16 '05 #3

P: n/a
RCS
What these guys said..

But I will say, if you are coming right out of college or something - the
MCSD may be that little bit that helps. If anything, it will tell the
employer, you have come a long way on book knowledge, which will only help
you when you start doing real programming.

I got my MSCE in the late 90's.. couple things.. 1) the questions are geared
towards someone who JUST took the classes and don't have any other
experience. 2) the questions have a LOT of silly trivia that you'd either
never use - or if you did, you could just look up. 3) it's a bit of a
scam/very-clever in that the certification expires with the technology - so
you have to keep taking classes and keep taking the exams to keep your
certification current..

So bottom line, if you can get a company to sponsor/pay for it, it won't
hurt you.. but also keep in mind, that the MCSD isn't very impressive to
anyone who is a professional developer.. MCSDs are for managers and HR types
to get you the job..
"Mark Rae" <ma**@mark-N-O-S-P-A-M-rae.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ew**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
In short: if an employer requires an MCSD certification, I wouldn't
bother getting a job there. The reason is that the employer doesn't
undestand what's really important for the job.


I agree 100%. I've always equated MCP certification to driving lessons;
they don't teach you how to be a good driver, just how to pass your
driving test.

Nov 16 '05 #4

P: n/a

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:
MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang


Nov 16 '05 #5

P: n/a

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to get
teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams are
full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up in a
help document and which don't represent true understanding the material.
(e.g. what's the value of a constant)


Can you suggest an exam which is not like that? An exam which will really
test the knowledge of the candidate. In my opinion, that exam is the real
work and to get to appear for 'that exam' could MCS* not be a stepping stone
?
Nov 16 '05 #6

P: n/a
RCS
This wasn't directed at me, but if I may...

There are 3 kinds of developers (in my mind): ones in and around academia,
"point-n-click" developers and competent developers. Wait! Lemme explain!
Academic developers live and breathe in ideal textbook environments. Staying
in this environment too long will rot your brain. It weakens your ability to
think on your feet and be sharp. To me, this is the worst kind of
environment, because everything is predictable and by the book - when "real"
development is nothing like that. Even today, many military and aerospace
organizations are still like this - and end paying a dear price for the
inefficiency. In todays day and age, you just can't spend 2 years on a
product design - and then start development, because in that 2 years, new
tools and technlogies have come out that will likely impact your design!!
You can test these types by asking how they plan for a project or throwing
curveballs about changing requirements, mid-project.

Point-n-Click developers are ones that came from Excel->Access->VB and
typically have really bad coding techniques simply because they aren't aware
of the alternatives, and typically aren't very motivated to become better
developers. You can weed these types out by asking about complex application
architecture or advanced programming concepts.

Then there are are "regular", competent developers - ones that try to better
themselves constantly, are sharp and can react to a problem very quickly.
It's that agility that is the key to a good developer, to me. Hopefully,
this kind of candidate, you shuold be able to throw anything at them - and
they should be agile enough to react to any concept effectively.
So when you ask to test how capable a candidate is, something that works
every time is give them your own well-rounded test. I interviewed for a MS
consulting job once and they have a pretty cool little 30 question test that
was language independant asking about programming concepts like what is an
array, what is a linked-list, etc. I thought that was fantastic. Things like
that, really test the capacity of your candidate. Between a test and talking
with them - you should have a good idea of what category from above they
fall into.

For whatever it's worth..
"saurabh" <sa*****@nagpurcity.net> wrote in message
news:Or**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to get
teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams are
full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up in a
help document and which don't represent true understanding the material.
(e.g. what's the value of a constant)


Can you suggest an exam which is not like that? An exam which will really
test the knowledge of the candidate. In my opinion, that exam is the real
work and to get to appear for 'that exam' could MCS* not be a stepping
stone ?

Nov 16 '05 #7

P: n/a
Sam,

Just to give you another perspective, I have no .NET anything. No
certs. No exams. I do, however, have 20 years experience doing
object-oriented design and programming. While I'm by no means a guru in
all things .NET, or even the myriad technologies that Microsoft offers,
I am, after 1 year messing around with C#, helping out in this
newsgroup. You can read my responses and judge for yourself my
technical level.

You might still give me an interview, but as you said, you'd be "less
likely" to give one to me than to someone who didn't have my depth of
experience but had passed the certs. Looking for certifications from
Microsoft is not necessarily the best strategy.

If I were interviewing a candidate for our office, I would want to know
two things:

1. To what extent do they understand the kind of software technology
that we are using? We're using Windows Forms and we're looking to get
into Web Services, so I'd want to know if they had any experience in
those things, or at least understood the general concepts and issues
surrounding them.

2. To what extent to they undestand modern design and programming?
Object, classes, overloading? Do they understand when it's appropriate
to use this-versus-that. This sort of thing you learn with experience,
not much from certification exams.

The Java certs impressed me (and scared me, truth be told). In order to
pass one of those things you need hard experience. After looking at the
Java 2 programmer's exam I decided that anyone who wasn't using Java on
a daily basis couldn't pass it. Not so with MS exams: they're more
cram-and-write affairs.

To Lewis, I would say this: Take what Sam said to heart. Spend a few
extra bucks and take the certification exams. _Not_ because this will
give you an edge for the rest of your career. Rather, because it will
improve your chances of getting your next job. Once you have your foot
in the door and some experience under your belt, move from job to job
based on contacts and reputation, not cold calls and MS certs: the
latter are useful only when you don't have the former.

Nov 16 '05 #8

P: n/a
What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am looking
at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However,
when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always the
"BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4 lines
of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to
learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up little
tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever under
estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.
--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But
let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:vv********************************@4ax.com...

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:
MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang

Nov 16 '05 #9

P: n/a
Bruce,

I didn't mean to imply I wouldn't give someone an interview without
them--that's hardly the case especially as we haven't received a
single resume with a .NET certification. What I meant is that a
candidate that we normally would not have given an interview (say
someone with 2-3 years programming experience but zero .net
experience) would get an interview when that candidate otherwise would
not.

For me, personally, the biggest factor is when I talk to someone if
they can talk intelligently about their work. I'm amazed when I talk
to people and they have trouble explaining what it is they do and the
technologies they use. I'm not saying things like "explain what SOA
is" or "tell me about design patterns" when they have expressed no
previous knowledge in those areas. I'm saying people that list things
on their resumes but can't explain the things they list. I look for
someone that can hold a decent programming conversation about the
concepts and talk about technologies they've used.

I would definitely also agree that the MS certifications are worth a
lot less than other certifications. The Java ones, of which I have
none but have reviewed, are considerably better from my perspective.
I have several 5 Macromedia certifications and they are even better
than the MS certs.

To get a better understanding of this thread I went ahead and took a
practice exam for 70-306 (VB.NET WinForms) last night and was really
disappointed. It seemed about as bad as the old VB6 exam
concentrating on things that don't necessarily make someone a good
programmer and providing lots of questions that are fairly easy to
guess at without really knowing the material. Still better than
nothing, but not worth a lot.

My $0.02 only...

Sam

On 7 Feb 2005 17:19:12 -0800, "Bruce Wood" <br*******@canada.com>
wrote:
Sam,

Just to give you another perspective, I have no .NET anything. No
certs. No exams. I do, however, have 20 years experience doing
object-oriented design and programming. While I'm by no means a guru in
all things .NET, or even the myriad technologies that Microsoft offers,
I am, after 1 year messing around with C#, helping out in this
newsgroup. You can read my responses and judge for yourself my
technical level.

B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for WinForms + WebServices position with strong possibility of ASPX in future. Seaking mid to senior level developer. For information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.
Nov 16 '05 #10

P: n/a
RCS
I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way, but
for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one line:
declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a ternary
expression (spelling?)..

"Wayne" <Me******@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am
looking
at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However,
when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always
the
"BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4
lines
of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to
learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up
little
tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever
under
estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.
--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute.
But
let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:vv********************************@4ax.com...

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:
>MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
>it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
>the exam?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lewis Lang


Nov 16 '05 #11

P: n/a
Interesting, didn't know you could do that all on one line. HMMM, wonder if
it would pass our code review process.

"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qn***************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com. ..
I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way, but for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one line: declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a ternary
expression (spelling?)..

"Wayne" <Me******@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am
looking
at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However, when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always
the
"BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4
lines
of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up
little
tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever
under
estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.
--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute.
But
let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:vv********************************@4ax.com...

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:

>MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
>it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and >the exam?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lewis Lang



Nov 16 '05 #12

P: n/a
"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:rq********************************@4ax.com...
Bruce, <<>> To get a better understanding of this thread I went ahead and took a
practice exam for 70-306 (VB.NET WinForms) last night and was really
disappointed. It seemed about as bad as the old VB6 exam
concentrating on things that don't necessarily make someone a good
programmer and providing lots of questions that are fairly easy to
guess at without really knowing the material. Still better than
nothing, but not worth a lot.


Yep.
I've looked at microsoft certification.
The stuff you're tested on is virtually all what I'd call "academic"
knowledge.
Stuff that you just don't care about as you do development.

I'm a contractor, occasionally work as team leader.
I've interviewed a number of people.
To get a feel for how much exerience they have I ask a few very open
questions and just see what they say.
It may be coincidence but the people who were MCSD did badly.
If I were to take my experience literally, certification would seem to be a
negative.

Maybe the approach is interesting.
One of my standard questions was vb6.

You're doing a screen.
The idea is that there's a compound key to the data to be shown.
This is to matched by a series of combo boxes.
Country, county, town or something like that.
The user is to select from the first combo box.
This will then be used to populate a second, which in turn will be used to
populate a third.
When the last one is selected, some other piece of code will be run which
populates other bits of the form.
You're populating each combo by looping through a recordset and adding each
entry.
What problem might you expect to find?

Additem generated a click event, so it'll potentially run the populate next
combo bit for each entry as you populate it.
I'd then go on to ask him what command would that be to stick an entry in
the combo?
Further questions depending on how he/she answers.

My logic being that if the guy had used combo boxes he probably had used
additem to fill em and he probably did something on the click event so he'd
have come across this sort of stuff before.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
Nov 16 '05 #13

P: n/a
Unless your code review process has some aesthetic restrictions on the form
code takes, the ?: version ought to pass. Both versions are absolutely
identical from a semantic point of view. They will both perform identically
in all situations, and both will cause the compiler to emit the same MSIL
code.

"Wayne" <Me******@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:uW*************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Interesting, didn't know you could do that all on one line. HMMM, wonder
if
it would pass our code review process.

"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qn***************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com. ..
I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they
take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way,

but
for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one

line:
declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a
ternary
expression (spelling?)..

"Wayne" <Me******@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am
> looking
> at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However, > when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always
> the
> "BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4
> lines
> of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to > learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?
>
> Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
> aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
> anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
> previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up
> little
> tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever
> under
> estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
> test.
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> Wayne Sepega
> Jacksonville, Fl
>
>
> "When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a
> minute.
> But
> let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
> That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
>
> "Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
> news:vv********************************@4ax.com...
>>
>> We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
>> of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
>> (some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
>> would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.
>>
>> My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
>> still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
>> don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
>> exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
>> optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
>> presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
>> already know the material.
>>
>> My $0.02.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
>> why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:
>>
>> Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
>> microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
>> microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general
>>
>> Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm
>>
>> So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
>>
>>
>> BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
>> for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
>> some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
>>
>>
>> On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:
>>
>> >MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
>> >it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and >> >the exam?
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >
>> >Lewis Lang
>>
>
>



Nov 16 '05 #14

P: n/a

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam

B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.
Nov 16 '05 #15

P: n/a
not only do the books promote bad practice, but it's painfully obvious that
the author nor the editors, actually went through the exercise in the book,
I've just spent over an hr tracking down a bug in the code in the book, but
the code on the CD is correct.

Starting to wonder if it's even worth doing this to satisfy management.


"Wayne" <Me******@community.nospam> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
What's really sad is how wrong some of the books are. Currently I am looking at getting a cert, I've got all the books (thank you Microsoft). However,
when reading through them I've noticed that the examples are not always the "BEST PRACTICE". Section of code I just hit has you typing the same 4 lines of code in two places. This is just wrong, if you are getting the books to
learn how to program properly shouldn't the examples be done properly?

Most people learn by example, and if the books you use to get your cert
aren't the best examples how can you really expect the cert to be worth
anything in the long run, except by HR and Management as stated in a
previous comment, which is my want to get the cert. I am also pick up little tidbits of useful info here and there along the way, but I don't ever under estimate the purpose of the book as I go, which is to get you to pass a
test.
--
Thanks
Wayne Sepega
Jacksonville, Fl
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour.
That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:vv********************************@4ax.com...

We're currently hiring for a few .NET development positions and none
of the resumes we've received were from people with .NET certification
(some older certifications). If someone did have certification we
would value it and be more likely to give them an interview.

My fealing is certification can't hurt (unless you almost fail and
still say you're certified and the interviewer asks your score--if you
don't do well, don't list that you're certified). So always take the
exam. Whether or not you spend extra on books and learning is
optional, you can take the exam without this but also the books
presumably would help make you a better .NET programmer if you don't
already know the material.

My $0.02.

Sam

BTW, there was something wrong with your original post which may be
why there were no follow-ups. Here's the original headers:

Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcsd, microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb, microsoft.public.dotnet.general

Followup-To: rec.photo.digital, rec.photo.equipment.35mm

So maybe you have some replies in the photo groups? :-)
BTW, if anyone is in Washington DC metro area and would like to apply
for a mid to senior level VB.NET position (WinForms + Web Services,
some possibility of aspx in future) e-mail me. sam_at_blinex_com
On 6 Feb 2005 00:11:42 -0800, "Lewis Lang" <co*******@idxc.org> wrote:
MCSD certification - is it still necessary to land a job? ... or, is
it just a money-maker? Is it worth spending the money on the books and
the exam?

Thanks,

Lewis Lang


Nov 16 '05 #16

P: n/a

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam


I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?
--
Regards,
Max.

Nov 16 '05 #17

P: n/a
RCS
I'm not the OP here, but *I* would say that's a bad sign, because that tells
me the person can't multi-task. Most dedicated people have multiple things
going on thier life and "find a way" to do it all. There is absolutely no
need to quit working - and for 3 MONTHS to prepare for an exam!!

In other words, that expression "If you want something done, ask a busy
person" - applies, I think. A busy person would find time, over that 3
months to get some studying in, maybe they'd take a couple 3-day weekends
even, but to be out of work for 3 months is professional suicide. As a
developer, your PRIMARY focus should be (in my opinion):

A) Whatever your expertise is, be great at it. Stay great at it.
B) Be good at your secondary stuff. Work to be great at it.
C) Keep up with the latest technology (be familiar enough to know whether
it's worth pursing or not)
D) Stay agile. Always work on staying sharp with both your skills and with
your problem-solving.

It takes constant work to maintain - nevermind build your career. To me,
taking 3 months off for anything - is going to severely impact every one of
these objectives. It also is telling about your personality, are you going
to be high maintenance? If I give you a big project - are you going to need
to take a sabatical because the stress is just "too much"? What if I give
you TWO important projects?

On the flip side, if someone has a day job *AND* studied for 3 months for an
exam - THAT would be a "very good sign", because they are capable of
multi-tasking and managing thier life. Shows they aren't afraid of work and
shows they are ambitious.
"maxthegold" <ma*@the.gold.com> wrote in message
news:a6******************************@ghytred.com. ..

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam


I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?
--
Regards,
Max.

Nov 16 '05 #18

P: n/a
What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three months
is not bad at all.

Nov 16 '05 #19

P: n/a
"Mosaic" <Mo****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:85**********************************@microsof t.com...
What would be the harm in finding out why he/sho chose to do things this
way?
Perhaps the applicant was so committed to stay up to date that he/she was
prepared to take this (admittedly) big risk and take 5 tests in three
months.
If .NET was new material and if the person did not cheat, then three
months
is not bad at all.


I want to keep up to date, I buy books and read.
If I wanted to start up a software house and needed two people with mcsd
then I'd maybe take 3months off to swot.

I tend not to discount people too quickly just based on the odd thing on
their CV.
If they look like they have the experience I telephone interview.
If their technical abilities seem OK and their personality comes over OK
then I get them in for a chat.

Telephone interviewing saves a lot of time.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
Nov 16 '05 #20

P: n/a
"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qn***************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com. ..
I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way,
but for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one
line: declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a
ternary expression (spelling?)..


I'd take clarity over brevity any day of the week.

So I don't think it'd be a "purist" who chose the second way.

I associate the sort of code in that second example with someone who's bored
enough to think of the shortest bit of code they can write.
To me, that's a bad sign.
Bored programmers start writing weird bits of code just to try stuff out and
do things in different ways.
That's bad.

Version one is clear.
Anyone can see what it does immediately.
Version two you have to think about.
I would rather someone maintaing a piece of code think about some more
important part of the system than decoding smart-alec code.
Keep it simple.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
Nov 16 '05 #21

P: n/a

The test is meant to assess your skills as a programmer. Ideally,
someone who is a .NET programmer and works in the technologies being
tested on a regular basis should be able to pass the test without any
preparation.

Because the MCSD exams have a tendency to test on things that are less
used or never used, some studying is required. But 3 months of
dedicated studying is overkill.

My $0.02 (and most people here disagree with me, so it's probably only
with $0.01 at best)

Sam
On 09 Feb 2005 12:29:03 +1100, maxthegold <ma*@the.gold.com> wrote:

We just got our first resume in for someone that has MCSD. In this
case the person actually took 3 months off work to study for the MCSD
exams (or at least that's what the resume says). Very bad sign.
Hurt the applicant in this case...

Sam


I would be interested to know why this was considered to be a "very bad
sign"?


B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.
Nov 16 '05 #22

P: n/a
I agree with you a hundred percent. The OP was not mine, and my comment was
simple. Is there such a test? The answer, even from your post (unless you
are appearing for MS interview) is NO.

The place where I work have a programming test which is language independent
and it has some pseudocode questions and conceptual questions. We regularly
get candidates who have lotsa certificates and they fail this test
miserably.... Now the trouble is, this test is not available to anybody
unless they apply for a job at our company.... so the question remains...
what should a person do so that a company will consider him worth appearing
for the conpany's test... and one part of my brain says the answer is MS
certifications.

I donno why I am advocating this as I have been programming for around 6-7
years now starting from VC++ 4.2 to C# and have not got any microsoft
certification :)

"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3S*****************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...
This wasn't directed at me, but if I may...

There are 3 kinds of developers (in my mind): ones in and around academia,
"point-n-click" developers and competent developers. Wait! Lemme explain!
Academic developers live and breathe in ideal textbook environments.
Staying in this environment too long will rot your brain. It weakens your
ability to think on your feet and be sharp. To me, this is the worst kind
of environment, because everything is predictable and by the book - when
"real" development is nothing like that. Even today, many military and
aerospace organizations are still like this - and end paying a dear price
for the inefficiency. In todays day and age, you just can't spend 2 years
on a product design - and then start development, because in that 2 years,
new tools and technlogies have come out that will likely impact your
design!! You can test these types by asking how they plan for a project or
throwing curveballs about changing requirements, mid-project.

Point-n-Click developers are ones that came from Excel->Access->VB and
typically have really bad coding techniques simply because they aren't
aware of the alternatives, and typically aren't very motivated to become
better developers. You can weed these types out by asking about complex
application architecture or advanced programming concepts.

Then there are are "regular", competent developers - ones that try to
better themselves constantly, are sharp and can react to a problem very
quickly. It's that agility that is the key to a good developer, to me.
Hopefully, this kind of candidate, you shuold be able to throw anything at
them - and they should be agile enough to react to any concept
effectively.
So when you ask to test how capable a candidate is, something that works
every time is give them your own well-rounded test. I interviewed for a MS
consulting job once and they have a pretty cool little 30 question test
that was language independant asking about programming concepts like what
is an array, what is a linked-list, etc. I thought that was fantastic.
Things like that, really test the capacity of your candidate. Between a
test and talking with them - you should have a good idea of what category
from above they fall into.

For whatever it's worth..
"saurabh" <sa*****@nagpurcity.net> wrote in message
news:Or**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
They aren't proof you can do what a job requires, only that you have a
certain set of knowledge. With MCS* diploma's the problem is that the
exams are bogus. Often people learn braindumps and go to bootcamps to
get teh diploma, but hardly know the hard facts. Furthermore the exams
are full of questions which ask for stupid trivia everyone would look up
in a help document and which don't represent true understanding the
material. (e.g. what's the value of a constant)


Can you suggest an exam which is not like that? An exam which will
really test the knowledge of the candidate. In my opinion, that exam is
the real work and to get to appear for 'that exam' could MCS* not be a
stepping stone ?


Nov 16 '05 #23

P: n/a
I would agree... for any cert exam.

"I took 3 months off to study" tells me "I know only the stuff on the
exam and nothing else. I have no practical experience with this stuff
whatsoever."

"I took the exam while I was working" might mean "I was working with
this technology and took the exam because I already knew most of it."
Of course, it could be that the guy just crammed at night and only
knows what's on the exam, but at least it's not a dead giveaway like
the first fellow.

As far as "giving the guy a chance"... when you have fifty or a hundred
resumes on your desk, you're looking for reasons to winnow them down to
ten. You can't call all of the candidates.

Object lesson: when you write things on your resume, try to think of
all of the ways those things might be read. Sometimes what sounds like
a boast comes across as a demerit.

Nov 16 '05 #24

P: n/a
I side with Andy. I avoid the ternary operator, and post- and pre-
increment and decrement. For the most part they're cryptic operators
that have perfectly reasonable alternatives.

Nov 16 '05 #25

P: n/a

So you personally avoid it.. but would you think of it as a negative
of someone else, for example when reviewing code samples?

That's a question I always have.. how critical to be when reviewing
someone's code samples. Usually the only real disqualifiers for me
are people that do direct database calls behind a form or a aspx page
(instead of going through a data access object).

Sam

On 9 Feb 2005 10:54:26 -0800, "Bruce Wood" <br*******@canada.com>
wrote:
I side with Andy. I avoid the ternary operator, and post- and pre-
increment and decrement. For the most part they're cryptic operators
that have perfectly reasonable alternatives.


B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.
Nov 16 '05 #26

P: n/a
"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not the OP here, but *I* would say that's a bad sign, because that tells
me the person can't multi-task. Most dedicated people have multiple things
going on thier life and "find a way" to do it all.
Sure that's reality - which makes it even more ironic that
the 70-300 guides clearly outlines to always list
"resources" that are not dedicated 100% to a project as a
project risk. So a high risk project is one where nobody is
dedicated 100% - now that may explain a few things...

In some downsized organizations everybody is on N projects
which can get so bad, priorities or not, that nothing is
being accomplished and everybody is just thrashing. On the
other hand some people are so good at multitasking their
private life that work is getting the lowest priority.

Dedicated persons know their limits and "simplify life" if
it becomes necessary. Multi-tasking is good ... to a point,
you still only get to spend every minute once.
There is absolutely no need to quit working
Maybe the "quitting" wasn't a choice. Or the quitting was a
result of continuous 60+ hours per week with no overtime pay
in a dead-end environment.
and for 3 MONTHS to prepare for an exam!!


For MCSD.NET thats 5 exams.
'The end result is that the majority of people actively
developing software are typically not the ones best qualified
to do it, and they don't even know it.'
Scott W. Ambler, 'Agile Modeling', p.5
Nov 16 '05 #27

P: n/a
Samuel R. Neff <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
So far all your statements have been reasonable.

I'd just like to state that from an employer's perspective
the MCSD.NET has very little value especially when viewed
without any other context that the applicant may be able to
provide in person.
The test is meant to assess your skills as a programmer.
Not really. You don't even have to have a firm grasp of the
language (VB.NET or C#) to pass the tests. You can be a
"lousy programmer" and pass those tests. The tests attempt
to gauge your knowledge of the framework in the broadest
sense of the exam's specified topic and the stated "Skills
being measured". If you care to review them, here they are:

VB.NET track
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...305.asp#SKILLS
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...306.asp#SKILLS
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...310.asp#SKILLS
plus
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...300.asp#SKILLS
and most likely
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/ex...229.asp#SKILLS

"Skills as a programmer" that are independent from
programming languages and tools will ultimately have a more
significant impact on the quality and maintainability of the
developer's product.
Ideally, someone who is a .NET programmer and works in the technologies being
tested on a regular basis should be able to pass the test without any
preparation.

Because the MCSD exams have a tendency to test on things that are less
used or never used, some studying is required.
Not that this will be ever put to a test but I think you
would be surprised. The tests are more laid out to cover the
breadth of the framework/exam topic and some obscure
questions are thrown in for good measure. Because of the
20/80 rule many "regular programmers" would have difficulty
passing the test without preparation because they were never
in a position where they had to use (or weren't aware of the
existence of) the dustier corners of the framework or tools
(as you have observed).
However some of the corners tend to be "dusty" because many
individuals tend to work with a minimal set of knowledge
(human nature I guess) - they don't see the value of
learning some of the other features unless somebody or
something forces them to. This is even more true in an
environment where coding is a part-time activity; there are
always proposals and project plans to write/estimate,
requirements to gather and document, legacy applications to
analyse, meetings to attend, etc.

So these exams try to cover some breadth and there is a
certain "propaganda" value by trying to show the tools and
framework in the best light.
But 3 months of dedicated studying is overkill.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Amit Kalani (author
of the favored C# preparation guides, which are the
counterpart of the Mike Gunderloy guides) estimates 1 month
per guide:

"To make sure that you get minimum hand-on experience needed
for the exam, these books are thick at about 1200 pages
each, and each will take at minimum one month of study time
to complete"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...575552-7205660

Based on that, your candidate should have only been able to
pass 3 out of 5 exams in that time span if he started out
with some programming experience but no .NET. (There is some
overlap between 70-305 and 70-306 because of ADO.NET;
however that is also exactly the area where those guides
need some beefing up to match the coverage of the test
questions).

Which actually puts your candidate in a gray area. In those
three months your candidate is either a "paper MCSD" or a
slow "braindump MCSD". A "braindump MCSD" is usually
acquired through the memorization of NDA violating
certification test questions. A "paper MCSD" obtains
knowledge through the certification guides and hopefully
through the study of the MSDN but has no real .NET
development background. A "real MCSD.NET" is usually
expected to have at least two years of .NET development
background. But even here the certification is often
attained through liberal use of test simulations to
considerably narrow the field of required learning to far
less than what's specified in the "Skills being measured".

"But I only need to send one of my developers to a one or
two week course, and they are up and running with the new
technology!"

Well that's the 20/80 rule in action again - you don't need
to know that much to get started and HOPEFULLY you'll pick
up the rest before you finish - however that doesn't mean
that developer would be able to pass a certification exam.

Would you hire somebody just based on the knowledge that
they have taken "the course" (they usually give out a nice
participation certificate at the end)? Probably not.

By the same token a successful certification (by itself) is
not an indicator of how effective and successful a developer
will be in your organization.

However an individual with a legitimate breadth of knowledge
of technologies as extensive in scope as .NET or J2EE can be
valuable especially if your staff's current skill set does
not cover all the aspects of the technology which could
otherwise leave you in a position where you aren't working
as effectively as you could and where you may end up
"re-inventing the wheel".

My $0.02 (and most people here disagree with me, so it's probably only
with $0.01 at best)

Sam
B-Line is now hiring one VB.NET developer for
WinForms + WebServices position with ASPX in future.
Seaking mid to senior level developer. For
information or to apply e-mail sam_blinex_com.


'The end result is that the majority of people actively
developing software are typically not the ones best qualified
to do it, and they don't even know it.'
Scott W. Ambler, 'Agile Modeling', p.5
Nov 16 '05 #28

P: n/a
Hi All,

Last year I completed the 5 exams for the MCSD .NET - I didn't take any
time off work. I bought the MS recommended book, read the book, took
the exam - repeat 5 times. I made sure to book the exam on Monday or
Tuesday so that I'd have the weekend to study. Of course my situation
is fairly conducive to that kind of schedule:

1) We dont have any children
2) I rarely need to work overtime
3) I've been using .NET for 3 years

I agree with UAError, I found that studying was necessary due to the
topics on the guts of the framework - give me snippets of code any day!

ttyl,
Michelle

Nov 16 '05 #29

P: n/a

The test is meant to assess your skills as a programmer. Ideally,
someone who is a .NET programmer and works in the technologies being
tested on a regular basis should be able to pass the test without any
preparation.

Because the MCSD exams have a tendency to test on things that are less
used or never used, some studying is required. But 3 months of
dedicated studying is overkill.

My $0.02 (and most people here disagree with me, so it's probably only
with $0.01 at best)

Sam

OK. You didn't say that he was already working with the technology as
a .NET programmer, That's probably a fair call then. I thought that he
may have come from a totally different area of IT, and was studying up
from scratch as it were.
I'd give you $0.02 for it.

--
Regards,
Max.

Nov 16 '05 #30

P: n/a
"Samuel R. Neff" <bl****@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:fu********************************@4ax.com...

So you personally avoid it.. but would you think of it as a negative
of someone else, for example when reviewing code samples?
I view it as a potential warning sign.

I'd be wary of thinking of such code as "a negative". If you're negative
with someone then they're likely to be negative right back at ya.
That's a question I always have.. how critical to be when reviewing
someone's code samples. Usually the only real disqualifiers for me
are people that do direct database calls behind a form or a aspx page
(instead of going through a data access object).

Sam


I'd point out that I'd prefer them to write stuff clearer rather than
shorter.
Hopefully they listen to what I say take my point and change the way they
write code.

Human nature is such that this might not happen...
That's a management skills, motivation and personality thing though.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
Nov 16 '05 #31

P: n/a
kgb
Actually both ways have their uses. We use the ternary operator for
formating SQL Query strings. In this case, when you have several variables
to fill (sometimes more for complex queries) using CString's format, it's a
lot easier to read as

CString sqlCmd.Format("INSERT INTO <BLAH> VALUES ('%s', %s, %s, %d, '%s'",
(IsDivert) ? "REJECT" : "RECIRC",
<variable>,
(AreWeThereYet) ? "1" : "0",
<variable>,
(IsEnabled) ? "Lane Open" : "Lane Closed")

This gets complicated when you start using .Append instead of .Format. A
true "purist" would look at the situation and choose the best tool for the
job.

Just my humble opinion.

"Andy O'Neill" wrote:
"RCS" <rs****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qn***************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com. ..
I'm not defending books like that by any means, but many times - they take
the simple route, just for claritys sake. For example, a book may have:

string strResult = "";
if ( IsEnabled )
strResult = "Yes"
else
strResult = "No";

when you could do this, instead:

string strResult = (IsEnabled) ? "Yes" : "No";

So a purist would say it'd be more appropriate to do it the second way,
but for someone just starting out, that is a lot of stuff going on in one
line: declaring a variable, initializing it, evaluating an expression, a
ternary expression (spelling?)..


I'd take clarity over brevity any day of the week.

So I don't think it'd be a "purist" who chose the second way.

I associate the sort of code in that second example with someone who's bored
enough to think of the shortest bit of code they can write.
To me, that's a bad sign.
Bored programmers start writing weird bits of code just to try stuff out and
do things in different ways.
That's bad.

Version one is clear.
Anyone can see what it does immediately.
Version two you have to think about.
I would rather someone maintaing a piece of code think about some more
important part of the system than decoding smart-alec code.
Keep it simple.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill

Nov 16 '05 #32

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