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Is "Whidbey" going to de-skill developers ?

P: n/a
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.
Nov 16 '05 #1
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32 Replies


P: n/a
Hasnt this already happened with the introduction of dotnet
"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #2

P: n/a
The Data Access Application Block cut down my ADO.NET code from anywhere of
50% to 90%.

I don't feel dumb.


"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #3

P: n/a
> I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

I do not believe so.

ASP.Net 2.0 is like adding an innovation in the building trades... like
prebuilt cabinets.

So we get prebuilt cabinets when designing a home. Sure, now we don't need
as many clever carpenters putting in cabinets to build a kitchen. On the
other hand, more houses will end up with more cabinets because they are
easier to put in and less expensive to do well.

The hard stuff is not the cabinets, or the plumbing, or the electrical. The
hard stuff is the architecture, the design, the internal spaces that people
live in.

Same thing goes for computing. We get one more tool, and it takes away a
little more of the grunt work. A real architect will use this code when it
works, and ignore it when it doesn't, without complaint. No one cares if
the design deviates from the "average every-day design" if the results are
beautiful in their own way. On the other hand, with more of the grunt work
done, we can focus on the hard stuff, the elegant stuff, the opportunity to
make something truly great.

So, those folks who can move closer to elegant design will continue to do
so. The folks who can do "sturdy cabinets", but nothing else, will go work
in RPG until they retire. If anything, the average IQ of the .Net developer
community goes up... not down.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.

Nov 16 '05 #4

P: n/a
my goodness, Eric. I never found that application block to be that useful.
I'll have to take another look.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Eric Sabine" <mo*****@hyott-maily.com> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
The Data Access Application Block cut down my ADO.NET code from anywhere of 50% to 90%.

I don't feel dumb.


"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.


Nov 16 '05 #5

P: n/a
Ciaran wrote:
Hasnt this already happened with the introduction of dotnet
If anything was going to replace developers, it would have been the rise of
the "application" server around 2000/2002. These soup-to-nuts servers
promised that every user could "develop" their own web applications.

Of course, we've heard that before, and now most of these companies are on
the verge of bankruptcy.

The one size fits all and "every man a programmer" approach sounds good to
management ( and many spent billions implementing it ) -- but the end
result: a couple of really good 'c' programmers can do the job a lot
cheaper, with more flexibility and faster than all this "easy to use
stuff".

Will a lot of companies spend a lot money buying Whidbey? Yes.

Will a lot of real world production projects, that serve millions of
customers with transactional processing get built with it? Nope.



"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.


Nov 16 '05 #6

P: n/a

I completely agree with Nick Malik. Technology is here to
simplify life and it builds on what has gone before.

Now with .NET simplifying things we can concentrate on the
architecture and design principles. This is obviously going
to need thought from the developer and cannot be classified
as a lesser skill

-----Original Message-----
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task andopen up the task of web development to less qualified and trainedstaff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.
.

Nov 16 '05 #7

P: n/a
You're wrong ;-) they'll have time to do new and more important things - and
take advantage of all the cool new features.

Every new release makes stuff easier - but things get more and more
complex - not less and less complex b/c the bar gets raised and new things
become possible.

--
W.G. Ryan MVP (Windows Embedded)

TiBA Solutions
www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #8

P: n/a
tribal wrote:
I completely agree with Nick Malik. Technology is here to
simplify life and it builds on what has gone before.


Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.


Nov 16 '05 #9

P: n/a
Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:

ASP.Net 2.0 is like adding an innovation in the building trades... like
prebuilt cabinets.


Is it so hard to believe that Bill would cheat his own grandfather to make
another nickel?
Nov 16 '05 #10

P: n/a
> Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.


So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding Hemmingway?

Are you afraid that you aren't up to the task?

There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their
schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more
computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
nations than we graduate in the US, nationwide. Every year. And our
numbers are falling.

And they work for 30-60% less than we do.

If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and brave
software engineers pouring out of these markets.

You have two choices: seek higher ground, or get swept away. Get better, or
quit now.

To avoid the issue is about as effective as turning your back on an
approaching hurricane.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
Nov 16 '05 #11

P: n/a
Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:
Anyone can learn English.
Very few people are Hemmingway.
So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding Hemmingway?


I consider myself wanting to be among the best, but "learning".

..Net is such a daunting and magnificent platform, that I would hesitate to
put myself in that league yet.
There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their
schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more
computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
Yet, as you yourself pointed out, .net is not really about "computer
science" -- it is a creative and design oriented tool. I think they are
still way behind what we are doing with our software in the U.S.

Remember, the Big 4 Internet companies, Google, Yahoo!, e-Bay and Amazon,
are all pure U.S. inventions. They are the web/database/search engine
applications that server millions each day. ( And, BTW, none of them
use .Net )
And they work for 30-60% less than we do.
Yes and no. Many of us work many more hours than the 40 hours that our
salaries are computed on. Now that the days of perpetual high hourly
contract wages are gone, I, for example, work on salary. But I also feel
that I work 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, because I live breathe and eat
my work in .net When I divide my hourly wage by all the work I do,
including personal training, programming for learning and fun etc, I
calculate my wage at about $15 an hour. Whereas the typical overseas
person, whose consulting company will charge you for each and every hour
and who provides no measure of efficency, will charge about $25.

Also, just reading these newsgroups, there are a lot of these consultants
who don't seem to know very much beyond the basics and come here with
questions like "how do I create a database driven website" or some all
encompassing task that they want us to fully program for them.
If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and
brave software engineers pouring out of these markets.


As Kirstin Dunst said, "Bring It On."

Nov 16 '05 #12

P: n/a
A Microsoft technology described as "an approaching hurricane" from a
Microsoft guy.

Who can argue?
"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t0mBd.732290$mD.54284@attbi_s02...
Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.


So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding Hemmingway?

Are you afraid that you aren't up to the task?

There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their
schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more
computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
nations than we graduate in the US, nationwide. Every year. And our
numbers are falling.

And they work for 30-60% less than we do.

If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and
brave
software engineers pouring out of these markets.

You have two choices: seek higher ground, or get swept away. Get better,
or
quit now.

To avoid the issue is about as effective as turning your back on an
approaching hurricane.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--

Nov 16 '05 #13

P: n/a
It needs embellishment IMHO, but it's not terrible. I'm not too fond on
SqlParameter caching though, but anyway.

- Sahil Malik
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik


"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:TglBd.262451$5K2.132671@attbi_s03...
my goodness, Eric. I never found that application block to be that
useful.
I'll have to take another look.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Eric Sabine" <mo*****@hyott-maily.com> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
The Data Access Application Block cut down my ADO.NET code from anywhere

of
50% to 90%.

I don't feel dumb.


"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
> Hi
>
> I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
> 70%.
>
> Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
> open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
> staff.
>
> Tell me if I'm wrong.



Nov 16 '05 #14

P: n/a
Hey we're both Malik .. how 'bout dat !!

- Sahil Malik
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik
"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:TglBd.262451$5K2.132671@attbi_s03...
my goodness, Eric. I never found that application block to be that
useful.
I'll have to take another look.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--
"Eric Sabine" <mo*****@hyott-maily.com> wrote in message
news:OX**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
The Data Access Application Block cut down my ADO.NET code from anywhere

of
50% to 90%.

I don't feel dumb.


"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
> Hi
>
> I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
> 70%.
>
> Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
> open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
> staff.
>
> Tell me if I'm wrong.



Nov 16 '05 #15

P: n/a
Aristotle denounced written language saying it'll have a bad effect on human
memory.

Anyway, in a *real* enterprise app, you'll still be writing a whole lot of
code. The MS built in stuff that ships with ASP.NET 2.0 isn't suitable for a
multi portal architecture. Much of it is real cool but also will not work
downward compatible on Netscape 4.x.

You might ask why bother with that? Every government site has to be Section
508 compliant and the cool breadcrumb/treeview etc. are not. Not to mention
web parts/treeview are very very microsoftish - when it comes to designing
websites that are intended for huge audiences, your designers will more
often than not choose a non microsoftish look.

Consider that you are developing amazon.com, and consider what all ASP.NET
2.0 built in stuff will you be able to use? Your site must support every
browser out there, it has to be just as presentable to a non-logged in user
as it is to a logged in user. Can it be developed in ASP.NET 2.0? YES SURE
!! Is it a 2 day job? HELL NO !! :)

Look at any other big commercial website. You will find the same situation.
None of those are out of the box implementations with even ASP.NET 2.0. Or
atleast as much as they'd like you to believe, they are not.

Secondly, in ASP.NET in general, microsoft has been very very very very very
very security heady. (Read this
http://dotnetjunkies.com/WebLog/sahi.../28/30241.aspx ).
While I cannot argue that security isn't important, I feel in this entire
rhetoric of creating unbreakable security and creating more and more cool
stuff around creating things more and more secure, a few other important
facets are getting missed out. These could be skinning/layout/content
management/browser compatibility/failover schemes/memory
management/alerts/redundancy etc. etc. etc. Think about it - SQL Server and
IIS are both "Servers". They both have equally important roles. But SQL
Server is so much more mature, and IIS is so ultra lame in comparison. Yes
they serve different purposes, but that doesn't mean IIS (or web servers in
general) doesn't have room for improvement. The initial web servers were
written to deliver content, and we are beating the same dead horse today to
run SAP applications. C'mon !! Can we not come up with something better?

If I had to name two products that have stopped in the passage of time, it'd
be IE 6, and IIS 6. These two have failed to evolve when we moved from VB6
to .NET, from SQL Server 7 to Sql Server 2005.

Not to mention I've met very very few developers who really understood .NET
security, which means they implement their own much more home grown
vulnerable concoction. Yes what they do is incorrect, but it does happen.

Anyway, bottom line - ASP.NET 2.0 is an improvement, and if it were so cool
that it could put you out of a job, they'd probably had written a cool
utility called MakeMySite.Exe .. but there is no such utility so yes you
will still have a job. As a matter of fact, the improvmenets in ASP.NET 2.0
will force the few idiots who are still stuck on JSP to finally convert
over, and the job pool will actually increase.

.............. However (man I just keep going) ....... I feel that with the
introduction of ClickOnce, and eventually with Longhorn, when web based
XAML/Avalon applications show up. And the firefox XUL attempt are harbinger
to deathblows to HTML based web apps. And rightfully deserved so, HTML
sucks, it limits you so much, and the way it came into
development/evolvement was netscape and ie fighting over each other, it is
in essence the grandaddy of VB 6, i.e. it decides to ignore your mistakes to
be ultra compatible. What that gives you is a completely non-standard
uncontrollable look and feel and a very very tied hands developer that
cannot take advantage by far of the rich underlying protocols that could
seriously make the internet SO SO SO much more worthwhile than Internet
Explorer and HTML let you.

I feel in ClickOnce we see the beginning of the end of HTML based web
platforms, this change might take 5-10 years even, but it will happen IMHO.

The best part about ASP.NET 2.0 is that you don't have to use it :-)

- Sahil Malik
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik


"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #16

P: n/a
MO
but, is anyone ever really happy with those pre-built cabinets? I had to get
those when I moved in, but eventually I remodeled the kitchen and got some
real quality custom cabinets.

Wifee is MUCH happier!!!

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" wrote:
I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

I do not believe so.

ASP.Net 2.0 is like adding an innovation in the building trades... like
prebuilt cabinets.

So we get prebuilt cabinets when designing a home. Sure, now we don't need
as many clever carpenters putting in cabinets to build a kitchen. On the
other hand, more houses will end up with more cabinets because they are
easier to put in and less expensive to do well.

The hard stuff is not the cabinets, or the plumbing, or the electrical. The
hard stuff is the architecture, the design, the internal spaces that people
live in.

Same thing goes for computing. We get one more tool, and it takes away a
little more of the grunt work. A real architect will use this code when it
works, and ignore it when it doesn't, without complaint. No one cares if
the design deviates from the "average every-day design" if the results are
beautiful in their own way. On the other hand, with more of the grunt work
done, we can focus on the hard stuff, the elegant stuff, the opportunity to
make something truly great.

So, those folks who can move closer to elegant design will continue to do
so. The folks who can do "sturdy cabinets", but nothing else, will go work
in RPG until they retire. If anything, the average IQ of the .Net developer
community goes up... not down.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.

Nov 16 '05 #17

P: n/a
MO wrote:
but, is anyone ever really happy with those pre-built cabinets? I had to
get those when I moved in, but eventually I remodeled the kitchen and got
some real quality custom cabinets.

Wifee is MUCH happier!!!


Using Whidbey will be like buying cheap bookcases and furniture from IKEA.

The wheels will fall off, there won't be the right number of nails, and
the /special/ /tool/ will be missing.

Whidbey will be best used as a tool for seeing how *not* to do the job
right.
Nov 16 '05 #18

P: n/a
> Using Whidbey will be like buying cheap bookcases and furniture from IKEA.

The wheels will fall off, there won't be the right number of nails, and
the /special/ /tool/ will be missing.


Can you proof what you wrote above in the general way you wrote this?

IKEA claims they do a lot of testing in advance to prevent that. That is one
of the basics of there success, although a lot of people are jealous on
that.

The parallel in this writing is not an coincidence.

Cor
Nov 16 '05 #19

P: n/a
Japan has created a new kind of computer that will automate programming to
such a fine degree that it will put most programmers out of work within a
couple of years. There will no longer be a need for such skilled people,
working with source code statements and I dont recommend college students
take programming or any of the card punch classes, programming will be fully
automated so dont bother to study it.

popular culture circa 1979

When a breakthru comes along? People tend to move up on the ladder, not
down. People who learned the hard way, like using C with goto statements,
making scanf actually work; or MFC where every 3rd statement is a pointer or
pointer referenced data? When you get a new tool? It makes you better
because youve lived thru the older stuff.

The misconceptions of future trends? Thats a constant. The old 50s and 60s
science documentaries where things like the future kitchen would have
cabinets that move inside walls, plates that you simply throw away each
night and a machine re melts the plastic and casts new ones, even some of
the Disney exhibits of "tomorrow world" have not happened and never will. A
safe bet? If the earth is around 100 years from now, people will still enjoy
Levis jeans and cotton t shirts.

In the 50s? Some company put asbestos filters on cigarettes to reduce tar,
they advertised the new cigarettes "to YOUR health".

Wasnt a famous Microsoft employee quoted as saying computers wouldnt need
much more than 640K of memory? I dont know if that was a hoax or he said it,
but history is filled with poor observations by brilliant pioneers. The
electric guy, Edison? he wanted only DC electricity, when AC was proposed he
fought it, saying it was bad or something, and wouldnt go along with it. But
even to this day we use AC for household power.

"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #20

P: n/a
Oh, please.

Structured programming was going to do this. And 4GLs. And IDEs. And
object-oriented programming. And just about every other significant advance
in software development, not to mention computer technology.

I've been developing software professionally since 1979. Trust me, every
year or two something comes along that's supposed to render software
development skills obsolete, but ends up just allowing us to work at higher
levels of abstraction. You do have to keep up with changes, and you have to
sort out which changes are important to follow, but provided you apply
yourself to that, you're not going to starve.

I'm not sure what I actually did with 48K of RAM and a 97K floppy drive that
people were willing to pay me for back when I got started, and two decades
from now I will wonder what I did with a mere 1.5G of RAM and a microscopic
300G hard drive, too. So what.

A much bigger practical threat than that to your livelihood is the current
fashion of exploiting developers in the third world for slave wages, but
even that is a self-limiting phenomenon which will eventually destroy
itself.

Stay the course, young Jedi. Trust the Force.

--Bob

"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.

Nov 16 '05 #21

P: n/a
I say we all move to India and take our jobs back! Who is with me?

Nov 16 '05 #22

P: n/a

"pachanga" <qu*******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
I say we all move to India and take our jobs back! Who is with me?

[Shudder]

No way, the food is too spicy and apparently showering EVERY day is
considered taboo
Nov 16 '05 #23

P: n/a

Man, seriously, I would love to go to India and work all day doing .Net
programming. I think it would be great.

Low wages, but low cost housing, nice weather, great food ( well, for me, I
like curry and tandoori ) and Indian chics look hot.

pachanga wrote:
I say we all move to India and take our jobs back! Who is with me?


--
"The Bush administration aims in its 2005 budget to cut by $1 billion the
$18 billion fund that helps about 2 million Americans--generally the poor,
elderly, and disabled--pay their rent."
-Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dail...05/05_520.html

Nov 16 '05 #24

P: n/a
Bob Grommes wrote:
Oh, please.

Structured programming was going to do this. And 4GLs. And IDEs. And
object-oriented programming. And just about every other significant advance
in software development, not to mention computer technology.


There are many ways to look at this issue, almost all of them theoretical.

For instance, if every compiled today was replaced with a .NET compiler
and all source code was converted to .NET and all programmers from now
on could only program in .NET one could argue that we have a dumber
programmer-base than before, simply because we might have lost the
ability to create the compilers, runtimes and IDE's from scratch.

If you want to go the other way, giving more control into the hands of
the programmer (in accordance with the original question), you would
have to go back to programming with one's and zero's or assembly language.

However, such a deed isn't practical.

In order to build a great GUI application you can't occupy yourself with
the plumbing necessary to resize a window or paint things in the right
order. At some point you're going to have to let go and just decide that
the library builder has to deal with this, you will build your stuff on
top of it.

However, there's a fundamental point to be made here. Just because the
IDE will remove 70% of the code you need to maintain and write doesn't
mean that you can't write that code yourself if you want to change its
behaviour.

For instance, while I don't concern myself with how Windows windows work
I do know that if I really need to intercept a message sent to a
control, .NET will allow me to do that.

Personally I get to complete a lot more works because the IDE and the
runtime is helping me avoid the parts which are just tedious and 99%
same from one application to the next, while not blocking me if I want
to dig down and change that last 1% myself.

However, there's also a sidepoint to this. Too often I encounter people
that cannot create software but are great at naming classes and
namespaces, and while this could be said to be because they started with
the advanced compilers, ide's and runtimes that help them at every move,
which does nothing to help them become great developers, the real
culprit is the idiot who hired that programmer not knowing the difference.

--
Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen
http://www.vkarlsen.no/
mailto:la***@vkarlsen.no
PGP KeyID: 0x0270466B
Nov 16 '05 #25

P: n/a
Dude I've lived in India for 22 years of my life, there's very little
broadband internet there. The chicks are hot but their parents are very very
controlling. Low cost housing sure, but with lizards on the walls, wages are
low yeah, but you work a good 14 hour day on that and over that commute for
2 hours everyday and over that come back home and clean your house
completely everyday because it's so dusty there.

You will have a much more spiritually enriched life though, thats for sure,
other than that, America Rocks !!

- Sahil Malik
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik
"Section 8" <ro***@moore.bond.007> wrote in message
news:pr****************@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...

Man, seriously, I would love to go to India and work all day doing .Net
programming. I think it would be great.

Low wages, but low cost housing, nice weather, great food ( well, for me,
I
like curry and tandoori ) and Indian chics look hot.

pachanga wrote:
I say we all move to India and take our jobs back! Who is with me?


--
"The Bush administration aims in its 2005 budget to cut by $1 billion the
$18 billion fund that helps about 2 million Americans--generally the poor,
elderly, and disabled--pay their rent."
-Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dail...05/05_520.html

Nov 16 '05 #26

P: n/a

Actually, there's a huge Indian community here in Kent, Washington, USA
so I can get my doses of Indian food right here. Delicious!

People walk up and down our streets in saris and turbans all the time.

So, as long as I can get .net work, I guess its the best of both worlds.

Sahil Malik wrote:
Dude I've lived in India for 22 years of my life, there's very little
broadband internet there. The chicks are hot but their parents are very very
controlling. Low cost housing sure, but with lizards on the walls, wages are
low yeah, but you work a good 14 hour day on that and over that commute for
2 hours everyday and over that come back home and clean your house
completely everyday because it's so dusty there.

You will have a much more spiritually enriched life though, thats for sure,
other than that, America Rocks !!

- Sahil Malik
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/sahilmalik
"Section 8" <ro***@moore.bond.007> wrote in message
news:pr****************@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
Man, seriously, I would love to go to India and work all day doing .Net
programming. I think it would be great.

Low wages, but low cost housing, nice weather, great food ( well, for me,
I
like curry and tandoori ) and Indian chics look hot.

pachanga wrote:

I say we all move to India and take our jobs back! Who is with me?


--
"The Bush administration aims in its 2005 budget to cut by $1 billion the
$18 billion fund that helps about 2 million Americans--generally the poor,
elderly, and disabled--pay their rent."
-Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/news/dail...05/05_520.html


Nov 16 '05 #27

P: n/a
"Lasse Vågsæther Karlsen" <la***@vkarlsen.no> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
For instance, if every compiled today was replaced with a .NET compiler
and all source code was converted to .NET and all programmers from now on
could only program in .NET one could argue that we have a dumber
programmer-base than before, simply because we might have lost the ability
to create the compilers, runtimes and IDE's from scratch.

Lasse,

It's true that today, fewer people have deep knowledge of skills such as
compiler development, but that's because fewer people *need* to know. I've
always written business software because I enjoy that problem domain and
work well with business customers. Therefore lower-level things like
compilers are of only academic interest to me. This does not make me
"dumb" -- unless I try to pass myself off as a compiler writer. ;-)

In truth, the kinds of sub-skills and personality characteristics that make
a good systems programmer tend to be somewhat at odds with those needed by a
good line of business application developer. Little things, like
successfully communicating with people ;-)

There will always be people who think in 1's and 0's and we'll always need
them. On the other hand we need even more of the people who can think in
terms of business abstractions and can coax the requirements out of the
stakeholders.

As for your other remarks, they are spot on in my view.

Best,

--Bob
Nov 16 '05 #28

P: n/a
Bob,

Not quite sure what you meant by third world, but I should say that your notion
of programmers being exploited and paid slave wages is absolutely not true. If
you take what programmers get paid in Asian countries and convert that into US
dollars it sure will look like they are being paid peanuts. You miss the whole
picture, that is, the cost of living, cost of basic amenities housing, travel
and the general pay scale etc. If you take these into consideration, actually
the programmers here get paid very well compared even to their skilled counter-
parts in other professions. 14 hour days, sure it is there, but I guess its
applicable to many skilled professions today rather than being a country
specific phenomenon.

And this phenomenon being self-destroying, I really doubt. Did any of those
manufacturing jobs that the US lost to Japan & then China ever come back?
Instead, Americans by and large re-trained themselves to be computer
programmers and technicians. It will likely be the same this time except that
the world is also catching up faster with America!

Dhilip Kumar

In article <#P**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>, bo*@bobgrommes.com says...
Oh, please.

Structured programming was going to do this. And 4GLs. And IDEs. And
object-oriented programming. And just about every other significant advance
in software development, not to mention computer technology.

I've been developing software professionally since 1979. Trust me, every
year or two something comes along that's supposed to render software
development skills obsolete, but ends up just allowing us to work at higher
levels of abstraction. You do have to keep up with changes, and you have to
sort out which changes are important to follow, but provided you apply
yourself to that, you're not going to starve.

I'm not sure what I actually did with 48K of RAM and a 97K floppy drive that
people were willing to pay me for back when I got started, and two decades
from now I will wonder what I did with a mere 1.5G of RAM and a microscopic
300G hard drive, too. So what.

A much bigger practical threat than that to your livelihood is the current
fashion of exploiting developers in the third world for slave wages, but
even that is a self-limiting phenomenon which will eventually destroy
itself.

Stay the course, young Jedi. Trust the Force.

--Bob

"Fresh Air Rider" <Fr*************@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55**************************@posting.google.c om...
Hi

I understand that ASP.net 2.0 (Whidbey) is going to reduce coding by
70%.

Surely this is going to de-skill or dumb down the developer's task and
open up the task of web development to less qualified and trained
staff.

Tell me if I'm wrong.



--
Dhilip Kumar
Servion Global Solutions
Nov 16 '05 #29

P: n/a
Dhilip,

I know that it's easy to rationalize any rate of pay that permits one to
live better than one's fellow citizens, but if we are really gunning for a
global economy, guess what? Your fellow citizens are not limited to those
who live nearby. If (for instance) a company is willing to pay me (let's
say) $100 an hour to perform certain work, that is what the work is worth to
them. That value has everything to do with what they agree to pay and has
nothing whatever to do with the cost of living or the average wage or the
level of desperation where I happen to live. If it were connected with
need, then US developers would get $20 an hour and people in less affluent
areas would get $100. It isn't connected with need, it's connected with
value.

If someone on the other side of the planet knows that $100/hr is the going
rate, why ever would they quote less, assuming they are actually as skilled?
Regardless of how well they could or could not live on (say) one-fifth the
rate?

The answer is that due to differences is language, culture, time zone,
educational and work standards, the limits of telecommunication technology
vs face-to-face and so on, offshoring adds a great deal of cost. Software
development is very difficult under the best of circumstances and no one
wants to tie one hand behind their back and make it even harder. So
offshore concerns have to offer a rate low enough to overcome the resistance
of business to these impediments and handicaps.

Apparently this often involves an 80% discount or better, and I still see
more than a handful of such projects come back home after they fail
miserably (in fairness, often as much because of the customer as the
vendor).

Offshoring is attractive because it is the latest "silver bullet" that we
hope will alleviate the high cost of software development. It will fail
because it fixes nothing connected with the fundamental problem, which is
the inherent complexity of software development. The fact that it will take
pointy-haired bosses the better part of a generation to work this out
doesn't change the fact.

--Bob
"Dhilip Kumar" <dd*****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...
Bob,

Not quite sure what you meant by third world, but I should say that your
notion
of programmers being exploited and paid slave wages is absolutely not
true. If
you take what programmers get paid in Asian countries and convert that
into US
dollars it sure will look like they are being paid peanuts. You miss the
whole
picture, that is, the cost of living, cost of basic amenities housing,
travel
and the general pay scale etc. If you take these into consideration,
actually
the programmers here get paid very well compared even to their skilled
counter-
parts in other professions. 14 hour days, sure it is there, but I guess
its
applicable to many skilled professions today rather than being a country
specific phenomenon.

And this phenomenon being self-destroying, I really doubt. Did any of
those
manufacturing jobs that the US lost to Japan & then China ever come back?
Instead, Americans by and large re-trained themselves to be computer
programmers and technicians. It will likely be the same this time except
that
the world is also catching up faster with America!

Dhilip Kumar

In article <#P**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>, bo*@bobgrommes.com
says...

A much bigger practical threat than that to your livelihood is the
current
fashion of exploiting developers in the third world for slave wages, but
even that is a self-limiting phenomenon which will eventually destroy
itself.

Nov 16 '05 #30

P: n/a
The company I work for contracts out to a company in India, and you can see
the absolute truth in the Hemmingway statement. For all their programming
prowess, two of us over here spend 40% of our time de-bugging and
effectively re-writing the code they send us. And 80% of the code they send
is swiped off programming Websites I frequently visit.

I find it hilarious that this company is paying for code they could just as
easily download for free, and then paying us a salary to debug it for them.

Now *that's* marketing!

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t0mBd.732290$mD.54284@attbi_s02...
Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.


So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding Hemmingway?

Are you afraid that you aren't up to the task?

There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their
schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more
computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
nations than we graduate in the US, nationwide. Every year. And our
numbers are falling.

And they work for 30-60% less than we do.

If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and
brave
software engineers pouring out of these markets.

You have two choices: seek higher ground, or get swept away. Get better,
or
quit now.

To avoid the issue is about as effective as turning your back on an
approaching hurricane.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--

Nov 16 '05 #31

P: n/a
Is this not an isolated case? I'm sure there are very good companies in
India with engineers who produce above par code. It happens in the US too.
You get what you pay for.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney

Shameless Author plug
The Microsoft Office Web Components Black Book with .NET
http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"Michael C#" <xy*@abcdef.com> wrote in message
news:Lo***************@fe08.lga...
The company I work for contracts out to a company in India, and you can
see the absolute truth in the Hemmingway statement. For all their
programming prowess, two of us over here spend 40% of our time de-bugging
and effectively re-writing the code they send us. And 80% of the code
they send is swiped off programming Websites I frequently visit.

I find it hilarious that this company is paying for code they could just
as easily download for free, and then paying us a salary to debug it for
them.

Now *that's* marketing!

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t0mBd.732290$mD.54284@attbi_s02...
Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.


So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding
Hemmingway?

Are you afraid that you aren't up to the task?

There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their
schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more
computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
nations than we graduate in the US, nationwide. Every year. And our
numbers are falling.

And they work for 30-60% less than we do.

If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and
brave
software engineers pouring out of these markets.

You have two choices: seek higher ground, or get swept away. Get better,
or
quit now.

To avoid the issue is about as effective as turning your back on an
approaching hurricane.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--


Nov 16 '05 #32

P: n/a
"Is this not an isolated case?"

For all I know it might be the general rule as opposed to the exception...
I haven't personally out-sourced to a large enough sample of Indian firms to
perform a valid statistical analysis of any sort.

"I'm sure there are very good companies in India with engineers who produce
above par code. It happens in the US too. You get what you pay for."

You may have noticed that I didn't address every company in India or all
engineers in India. I speak of one particular incident, with one particular
company. In this instance the company is getting screwed out of $$$ for
below-par, re-cycled, freely available code.

But as someone else pointed out, I suppose since they're outsourcing to
India, they're getting screwed out of 30%-60% less, right?

LOFL.

*** We'll sell at a loss, but we'll make it up with volume ***

"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:u7**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Is this not an isolated case? I'm sure there are very good companies in
India with engineers who produce above par code. It happens in the US too.
You get what you pay for.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney

Shameless Author plug
The Microsoft Office Web Components Black Book with .NET
http://tinyurl.com/27cok
"Michael C#" <xy*@abcdef.com> wrote in message
news:Lo***************@fe08.lga...
The company I work for contracts out to a company in India, and you can
see the absolute truth in the Hemmingway statement. For all their
programming prowess, two of us over here spend 40% of our time de-bugging and effectively re-writing the code they send us. And 80% of the code
they send is swiped off programming Websites I frequently visit.

I find it hilarious that this company is paying for code they could just
as easily download for free, and then paying us a salary to debug it for
them.

Now *that's* marketing!

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <ni*******@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t0mBd.732290$mD.54284@attbi_s02...
Anyone can learn English.

Very few people are Hemmingway.
So which are you? An average learner of English, or a budding
Hemmingway?

Are you afraid that you aren't up to the task?

There are a billion people in China, and a billion more in India. Their schools teach math and engineering and science. They are graduating more computer science graduates in individual states and provinces of those
nations than we graduate in the US, nationwide. Every year. And our
numbers are falling.

And they work for 30-60% less than we do.

If you don't love this stuff, if you don't "eat, drink, and sleep this
stuff," you are going to have to compete with the advancing army of
intelligent, well educated, very competitive, hard working, young, and
brave
software engineers pouring out of these markets.

You have two choices: seek higher ground, or get swept away. Get better, or
quit now.

To avoid the issue is about as effective as turning your back on an
approaching hurricane.

--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--



Nov 16 '05 #33

This discussion thread is closed

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