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Decompiler.NET reverse engineers your CLS compliant code

P: n/a
http://www.junglecreatures.com/

Try it and tell me what's happenning in the Microsoft Corporation.


Notes:

VB, C# are CLS compliant
You can also use managed code with C++
Using what they call obfuscator, will not help you for a long time.
For each new obfuscator there will allways exist a new deobfuscator.
Your source's Symbols are written unchanged in the exe or dll file.
Looking to your Symbols, it's easy to understand your Source Code.
A honest compiler does not expose any Symbols, unless you Export them.
I like VB, it is an easy yet powerfull language, but it's good for
nothing else but studying or playing.

Nov 16 '05
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192 Replies


P: n/a
> Tell me a reason why I should decompile an application if I already have its
source code.

Aside from the obvious reason for recovering lost source code,
I'll give you 3 more good ones.

Our Decompiler.NET product uses decompilation as a baseline for
implementing other features.

1. We implement our obfuscator feature using our decompiler
technology.
2. You may want to translate an assembly to a different source
language such as decompiling a compiled VB.NET assembly to C#. Using
decompilation to accomplish this works much better than parser based
implentations.
3. Our decompiler improves you code by simplifying branching,
identifying high level statements like using, lock, and foreach, and
most recently, we have added some automatic refactoring capabilities
that generate interfaces for your public and internal members, factory
classes, encapsulate fields with generated properties and replace
their references, and general scoping tightening like recognizing
internal classes and members that can be made private. We are planning
to add support for other common design patterns such as generating
visitor classes for duplicating instance hierarchies.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #101

P: n/a
Will reverse engineers give me a better code that the one I did?

"Jonathan Pierce" <jp*****@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3d**************************@posting.google.c om...
Tell me a reason why I should decompile an application if I already have its source code.

Aside from the obvious reason for recovering lost source code,
I'll give you 3 more good ones.

Our Decompiler.NET product uses decompilation as a baseline for
implementing other features.

1. We implement our obfuscator feature using our decompiler
technology.
2. You may want to translate an assembly to a different source
language such as decompiling a compiled VB.NET assembly to C#. Using
decompilation to accomplish this works much better than parser based
implentations.
3. Our decompiler improves you code by simplifying branching,
identifying high level statements like using, lock, and foreach, and
most recently, we have added some automatic refactoring capabilities
that generate interfaces for your public and internal members, factory
classes, encapsulate fields with generated properties and replace
their references, and general scoping tightening like recognizing
internal classes and members that can be made private. We are planning
to add support for other common design patterns such as generating
visitor classes for duplicating instance hierarchies.

Jonathan

Nov 16 '05 #102

P: n/a

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:eI*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Attempts to decompile
it or bypass our license enforcement strategy are also a violation of
our license agreement and we utilize the legal system to protect our
proprietary intellectual property.

I would *never* do that! nope nope nope. What part of that do you not
understand?
So don't start attempting the threaten me with "the legal system" until
you have something to threaten me with you fool.

You also make a comment admitting that you at least attempted to decompile
our source code.

What else did you mean by: "By the way, the codes a bit dirty!"

We are a commercial company and will utilize legal processes as necessary to
protect our intellectual property. You may consider this a warning since you
have already implied that you have attempted to decompile our product's
source code in violation of our license agreement which you agreed to when
you downloaded and again when you installed the product.

You will be one of the first suspected if any attempts are made to crack or
distribute cracked versions of our product.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #103

P: n/a
I don't have to realize, I know, what is wrong with this addition?
Nov 16 '05 #104

P: n/a
Vortex Soft <No****@NoSpam.Net> wrote:
Try recompiling in Release mode, then decompiling.
Then try obfusticating the release mode dll and then decompiling it again.

Tell us what you see.

Thanks for your suggestion. Did you follow it? I am not sure if you are talking about the Obfuscator Comunity Edition
version 1.1.... that comes with the .NET Visual Studio. I am not able to
use that. (Am I missing something?)
I'm talking about following the suggestion of obfuscating the release
mode dll and then decompiling. You can do that with any obfuscator -
there are lots of them around, and most have demo versions.
A good obfuscator will completely remove all information that can be
removed, as far as anyone without the nonsense->original map is
concerned. You may still be able to understand the code, but it's a
*lot* harder to do so.

That's fair enough for me.

I discovered that most Symbols can be obfuscated, but I need to insist
on the enums:
[Enum].GetName(...)
returns the Symbol used in the enum as a string
so, the original Symbol is stored in the exe or dll, it can be decrypted.

Everyone that is not Obfuscating the evidence knows that it can be
decrypted or deobfuscated (whatever you name it).
That depends on the obfuscator. I would imagine some obfuscators
*could* obfuscate the enum values, if you really wanted it to and if
you were sure you didn't need to use Enum.Parse etc.

How many security or IPR-sensitive enum values do you normally run
across, out of interest? I can't remember the last time I saw one... If
no obfuscators currently on the market do this, I suspect it's because
there's no perceived need for it.
I noticed that you are an MPV, I don't know you, it is the first time I
see your nick name, so you should not understand the following question
as any sort of attack to you.
Can you explain as clear as the post I read from you, what checks does
Microsoft do when nomeating MVPs? Being more clear: is Microsoft ready
to put its hand on Bible to say that each of MVPs are not hackers or
malware people?

(I am not talking about you, I repeat to avoid misunderstandings)


No - it clearly doesn't have the time or energy to investigate people
to a huge extent. If someone is revealed to be a software pirate or
anything similar, however, I believe they would be kicked out of the
programme immediately.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 16 '05 #105

P: n/a
Jonathan Pierce <jp*****@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
And the enums can't be changed!!!


You are correct that enum values can't directly be obfuscated since
they are implemented as public literal fields. Since they are literal,
references to their values can substituted at compile time.


Presumably an obfuscator which was given sufficient licence by the user
could still obfuscate the enum though? If the user said, "I really
don't care what effects it has on anything else, my application is
entirely self-contained and I never use Enum.Parse/ToString" I don't
see why it couldn't be obfuscated. Surely just replacing Foo.XXX with
Foo.YYY everywhere in the code would work, wouldn't it?

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 16 '05 #106

P: n/a
Nak
Hi,
You also make a comment admitting that you at least attempted to decompile
our source code.
What else did you mean by: "By the way, the codes a bit dirty!"
It was a flippant remark which went with the rest of the post.

I have *never* decompiled anything, except been shocked by how well the
Reflector plugin can get my program back to source. That is all, I have no
desire for decompilation, if you cant take a tounge in cheek attitude
towards a tounge in cheek post then you need to lighten up a little!
We are a commercial company and will utilize legal processes as necessary
to protect our intellectual property. You may consider this a warning
since you have already implied that you have attempted to decompile our
product's source code in violation of our license agreement which you
agreed to when you downloaded and again when you installed the product.
LOL, you obviously have *no* idea of the legal system to be making
statements like that. You could not prove either way from my post regarding
the matter. HAHAHA, I have *never* even downloaded your "aplette" so how
could I decompile it? or agree to an EULA? Get a life! I have reflector and
for the purposes I need it, it's the perfect program for me. So I suggest
you calm down and stop making statements that you obviously believe are so
true, that puts you in the same ball park as me in the legal system!
You will be one of the first suspected if any attempts are made to crack
or distribute cracked versions of our product.
Ever heard of scandalous remarks?
Jonathan


A) Get a life
B) Get a life
C) Shut up!

Nick.
(And may I say this is totally without prejudice!)
Nov 16 '05 #107

P: n/a
>>... If
no obfuscators currently on the market do this, I suspect it's because
there's no perceived need for it.


I've never seen a request for this before, but now that it has been
mentioned, I went ahead and added the feature to the next version of our
built-in obfuscator capability in Decompiler.NET. Since enums fields compile
to public static literal fields, the implementation instead replaces
internal or private enums with structs and their fields with internal const
fields and substitutes their references with the enum's underlying type.
Enums types that are declared pubic are left unmodified to retain their
public interface for external calling assemblies.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #108

P: n/a


"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:<MP************************@msnews.microsoft. com>...
Jonathan Pierce <jp*****@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
And the enums can't be changed!!!
You are correct that enum values can't directly be obfuscated since they are implemented as public literal fields. Since they are literal, references to their values can substituted at compile time.

Presumably an obfuscator which was given sufficient licence by the user could still obfuscate the enum though? If the user said, "I really don't care what effects it has on anything else, my application is entirely self-contained and I never use Enum.Parse/ToString" I don't see why it couldn't be obfuscated. Surely just replacing Foo.XXX with Foo.YYY everywhere in the code would work, wouldn't it?


Hi Jon,

I must have been extremely tired when I thought about the enum value issue.
Thank you for keeping me sane. You are correct that obfuscators can just
rename the enum field names for internal and private types like any other
class or struct. There was a bug in my obfuscator implementation that caused
it to not obfuscate field names for public fields on internal and private
types, enums or not. When I saw the fields not obfuscated, I was half asleep
and decided to implement replacing them with structs, instead of thinking
about why they weren't obfuscated. This just proves that I am able to code
while not fully awake, but should avoid it.

Thanks again for questioning my implementation and the supportive posts that
you have made to this thread.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #109

P: n/a
Nak,

It's good to see that you have decided to not pursue further attempts to
decompile our products.

Your post do appear to contradict each other though, since you stated:

1. I have *never* even downloaded your "aplette" so how
could I decompile it? or agree to an EULA?

2. "By the way, the codes a bit dirty!" in the context of suggesting: "
should use a different decompiler to
decompile your little aplette"
This is clearly a reference to our code and not your own code that you
looked at in Reflector. If you were commenting about dirty code that wasn't
ours, why did you include the statement in a post whose entire contents was
related to commenting about what you should do with our code. You further
confirm that you were referring to our code in this statement directly
responding to my inquiry about your implication: "I will call your
application an "aplette" until I am blue in the face"

Clearly, you made comments about "dirty code" in the context of referring to
decompiled source code from our product which you confirmed that you were
using the term "aplette" to refer to our application in the same post where
you made the comment that you should "decompile your little aplette" and
your statement about the code that you observed when you actually did
"decompile our little aplette" in order to assert "By the way, the codes a
bit dirty!". Not only did you admit that you did download and attempt to
decompile our product, but you then continued to make harmful and libelous
statements about our implementation "By the way, the codes a bit dirty!".in
a public forum that can clearly have a direct impact on our target market's
perception of our product, and subsequently directly damage us financially.

If you were not referring to our code when you claimed that you were, then
your are now admitting that your written posting in a public forum was
intentionally made with the intent of "actual malice" consistent with
Justice William Brennen's famous clarification on libel law as it relates to
statements made about public figures as it relates to first amendment rights
of free speech.

"A public official can win a libel lawsuit
under the First Amendment, wrote Brennan, only if he
or she can prove "actual malice" on the part of the
defendant, where proof of "actual malice" is defined
as proof that the statement was made with "knowledge
that it was false or with reckless disregard of
whether it was false or not."

You may want to consult your lawyer before continuing to further incriminate
yourself in public forums.

Jonathan

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:Ov**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... Hi,
You also make a comment admitting that you at least attempted to
decompile our source code.
What else did you mean by: "By the way, the codes a bit dirty!"


It was a flippant remark which went with the rest of the post.

I have *never* decompiled anything, except been shocked by how well the
Reflector plugin can get my program back to source. That is all, I have
no desire for decompilation, if you cant take a tounge in cheek attitude
towards a tounge in cheek post then you need to lighten up a little!
We are a commercial company and will utilize legal processes as necessary
to protect our intellectual property. You may consider this a warning
since you have already implied that you have attempted to decompile our
product's source code in violation of our license agreement which you
agreed to when you downloaded and again when you installed the product.


LOL, you obviously have *no* idea of the legal system to be making
statements like that. You could not prove either way from my post
regarding the matter. HAHAHA, I have *never* even downloaded your
"aplette" so how could I decompile it? or agree to an EULA? Get a life! I
have reflector and for the purposes I need it, it's the perfect program
for me. So I suggest you calm down and stop making statements that you
obviously believe are so true, that puts you in the same ball park as me
in the legal system!
You will be one of the first suspected if any attempts are made to crack
or distribute cracked versions of our product.


Ever heard of scandalous remarks?
Jonathan


A) Get a life
B) Get a life
C) Shut up!

Nick.
(And may I say this is totally without prejudice!)

Nov 16 '05 #110

P: n/a
Nak
You sir, are a twat, and I am glad that I have never downloaded your
"aplette", I do not require your "aplette". So get over it!!!!!!

If you don't want to believe me, then that's fine by me, but it's a fact, a
hard cold one, it's a shame it isn't in the shape of a fish so that I can
slap it about your face!

Read the following, it's obfuscted using my very own ASCII obfuscator, see
if you can guess what it says,

iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur" 4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD 0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e "!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0Ad Y0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD 1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p 1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0w nl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"! !!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0 ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1D NtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e 77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl 0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!! !iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur "4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNt D0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77 e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0A dY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!i D1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4 p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0 wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e" !!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY 0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1 DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1 e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wn l0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!! !!

Nick.
(Without predjudice)
Nov 16 '05 #111

P: n/a

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:en*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
You sir, are a twat, and I am glad that I have never downloaded your
"aplette", I do not require your "aplette". So get over it!!!!!!

If you don't want to believe me, then that's fine by me, but it's a fact,
a hard cold one, it's a shame it isn't in the shape of a fish so that I
can slap it about your face!

Read the following, it's obfuscted using my very own ASCII obfuscator, see
if you can guess what it says,

iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur" 4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!iD1DNtD 0wnl0AdY0ur"4p1e77e"!!!!


Nick,

This is a serious issue for us that directly affects our company's revenue.

If you didn't download our product, then you are still guilty of making
libelous statements with "actual malice" regarding our product and subject
to legal ramifications with regards to U.S. and international libel laws.
You may want to be more careful in your future postings regarding our
products, our company, or other companies and products in newsgroups since
your postings are not immune to legal prosecution if we or others decide to
pursue the issue against you.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #112

P: n/a
Jay,

* "Jay B. Harlow [MVP - Outlook]" <Ja************@msn.com> scripsit:
Tell me a reason why I should decompile an application if I already have
its
source code.


You don't use backup software or check in to Visual Source safe often enough
and inadvertently delete the source to your project. :-)


:-)

I still think that this is a very weak reason for buying a decompiler,
because you will still have to restore comments etc.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
Nov 16 '05 #113

P: n/a
"kids_pro" <ki******@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uB**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>...
Will reverse engineers give me a better code that the one I did?


Yes, in many cases it will. Our product simplifies your branching by
combining condition sequences, inserting return, break, and continue
statements, recoginizing high level statement sequences like foreach,
using, lock, etc that you may not have originally written, and the
latest refactoring features use the code model to recognize and
anaylze your code and consistently reorganize it and generate
additions to implement common design patterns for you and tighten
scoping, as well as make your code more flexible by replacing concrete
instances with factory instantiated interface instances so that you
can implement additional implementations of the interface without
changing the calling code. We also include an option for generating
properties for your public and internal fields, make the fields
private, and replace the field references with the corresponding
properties. We are also planning support for recognizing other common
design patterns and applying them according to your preferences. You
should read the famous design patterns book by the gang of 4 to better
understand what we are planning on automating in addition to our
general statement sequence optimizations.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #114

P: n/a
Big ol' Ack!

MVP's do tend to get a bit of an authority complex with their fancy title.

Do I do a bit of mud slinging, yep. I don't deny that. I tried being nice,
I tried explaining it. And like I do with many others in this group,
especially newbies I take the time to try to explain it.

The OP was convinced, and would not have it any other way that none of us
had ever heard of obfusiciation. Even after we told him so... Arguing
exports and symbols and a few other buzz words.

As for Jonathan. I don't know, there seemed to be a lot of promotion. You
can't expect us to sit here and read the same tired crap over and over
though. We use the news groups as well, therefore allowed to voice our
opinion. In whatever manner it may be.

Am I an MVP? Nope. Do I care that I am? No... I like developing, scratch
that.. I love developing.. I love to learn.. I love to see others learn...
I don't need a flashy title with a virtual badge to go with it so I can tell
people what they can talk about on a public forum.

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:eU**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Hi Daniel,
While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are really starting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen no behaviour by Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their product(and suggesting it when people ask about decompilers).
Not that I ever denied that, I just absolutly hate that method of
advertising and that is what I percieved it to be. That isn't what the
newsgroup was intended for. If by any chance it wasn't a sales push then

as mr "Vortex" is a possible client or end user of JungleCreatures /
Decompiler.NET, they should conduct their chit chat elsewhere. This isn't a forum for JungleCreatues to offer support on their products is it?
Your comments on this thread have been inappropriate, as have several
others(CJ Taylor and Brian Henry come to mind), and you comprise what I
would consider those who should go away, atleast from this thread.
Yup, my comments can be *very* inappropriate at times, but I am not
leaving this newsgroup, I've been here long enough now and respect many of
the hard working participants. Just because I am not an MVP, or CJ or
Brian, that is the only reason you are making this statement, which
personally I believe to be unfair. But expected from an MVP, no offence

but sometimes they can get a little too authorative, the status doesnt come with a uniform does it?

Believe it or not, I am a regular of this group and do not always get
irate by this kind of thing, but sometimes I do. If *you* don't like what
you read, put it in your "block list".
The original poster is frustrating, to be sure, but you are being just as bad. This is not a forum for conspiracy theories or for bashing other
people, even if they make a product you don't care for.
Oh well, pots and kettles, but you are not the referee, so there is no
need to start blowing your whistle.

At the moment "mate" *I* don't even make products I care for, it's

been one of those days!

Nick.

Nov 16 '05 #115

P: n/a
BTW,

I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
compare it to something like RSA.

So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge make
sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.
"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" <onyxkirx@--NOSPAM--comcast.net> wrote in
message news:O6*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:Ol**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
LOL
I see that you are an honest person with a wide knowledge.
Could you help the ignorant people like me and millions others to protect their work in a satisfactory way?


Go away! You are so obviously in league with jungle creatures, your
probably one of his colleagues! You put on a little play and advertise
his crap overpriced product and now try a different tactic in an attempt
to save face!

Well sir, you have no face!


While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are really
starting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen no behaviour
by Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their product(and suggesting it
when people ask about decompilers).

Your comments on this thread have been inappropriate, as have several
others(CJ Taylor and Brian Henry come to mind), and you comprise what I
would consider those who should go away, atleast from this thread.

The original poster is frustrating, to be sure, but you are being just as
bad. This is not a forum for conspiracy theories or for bashing other
people, even if they make a product you don't care for.

Nov 16 '05 #116

P: n/a
As for Jonathan. I don't know, there seemed to be a lot of promotion.
You
can't expect us to sit here and read the same tired crap over and over
though. We use the news groups as well, therefore allowed to voice our
opinion. In whatever manner it may be.


CJ,

This thread was originated by an independant user who has no affiliation
with our company, but was pointing out his concerns regarding his perception
of security risks related to his awareness of the completeness of our
product's ability to generate correct and high-level source code from
unobfuscated assemblies.
The title of the thread mentions our product directly and was not influenced
in any way by our company. We read the newsgroups as well and seeing the
thread was the first that we had heard about this user. One posts on this
and other threads are always technical in nature and directly responsive and
relevant to the thread subject and provide answers and suggestions for
addressing the questions or issues initiated by the post that we are
responding to. Like other vendors, when our product directly answers the
user's question or provides a feature that meets his needs as described in
his post, we suggest our product as a solution and describe the features
that address the concerns of the author of the post. If you don't want to
read references to our product, than you probably should stop reading thread
posts whose subject directly mentions it and was started by a legitimate
independant newsgroup user who is expressing his concerns over the
capabilities of .NET decompilation and obfuscation tools and their issues in
the correct newsgroup relevant to such concerns.

Jonathan
Nov 16 '05 #117

P: n/a
Nak
> As for Jonathan. I don't know, there seemed to be a lot of promotion.
You
can't expect us to sit here and read the same tired crap over and over
though. We use the news groups as well, therefore allowed to voice our
opinion. In whatever manner it may be.
I agree intently.
Am I an MVP? Nope. Do I care that I am? No... I like developing,
scratch
that.. I love developing.. I love to learn.. I love to see others
learn...
I don't need a flashy title with a virtual badge to go with it so I can
tell
people what they can talk about on a public forum


Well said, MVP's are great, but they shouldnt think that non MVP's arent
capable of being MVP's too. I still stand very firm on my opinion of what
an MVP is, simply a way for Microsoft to give the end users of their
products support without having to actually pay anyone. But that's another
story completely.

Nick.
Nov 16 '05 #118

P: n/a
> CJ,

This thread was originated by an independant user who has no affiliation
with our company, but was pointing out his concerns regarding his perception of security risks related to his awareness of the completeness of our
product's ability to generate correct and high-level source code from
unobfuscated assemblies.
I understand that. I wasn't taking a shot at you directly, it just seemed
he was ignoring a bunch of other products that existed and really seemed to
be promoting yours.

When you jumped in, it just seemed a little strange. Reason why, you don't
see a lot of vendors out here actually talking a bunch about their products.
I understand you saw your name and all, that makes sense, but alot of other
components have been mentioned in the past with no response.

Forgive me if I offended you, just saying, it seemed to be a little odd.
Also, the conversation wasn't necessarily to debunk your product. If it
works, great. If it doesn't, I don't really care. I don't use it. [That
whole Reflector argument]

It goes back to Vortex basically telling us Microsoft is screwing us because
of exporting all symbols and bla bla bla... which many of us stated, MANY
times, "Yeah, we know..." But apparently, your product was the only
solution.

And the article, well, you were very very knowledgable about it. Perhaps a
good president of a company, perhaps an influencer. A lot of us here have
waded through a lot of B.S.. It just didn't seem much different.

If not.. hey good luck to you, sorry if I offended you, but lawsuits? For a
software package that can cause lawsuits? Hmmm... sounds like a bit of a
oxymoron.
The title of the thread mentions our product directly and was not influenced in any way by our company. We read the newsgroups as well and seeing the
thread was the first that we had heard about this user. One posts on this
and other threads are always technical in nature and directly responsive and relevant to the thread subject and provide answers and suggestions for
addressing the questions or issues initiated by the post that we are
responding to. Like other vendors, when our product directly answers the
user's question or provides a feature that meets his needs as described in
his post, we suggest our product as a solution and describe the features
that address the concerns of the author of the post. If you don't want to
read references to our product, than you probably should stop reading thread posts whose subject directly mentions it and was started by a legitimate
independant newsgroup user who is expressing his concerns over the
capabilities of .NET decompilation and obfuscation tools and their issues in the correct newsgroup relevant to such concerns.

Jonathan

Nov 16 '05 #119

P: n/a
Nak
Daniel,

If you are interested in contacting Nick Pateman directly, his personal web
page is here:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/nickpatemanpwp/

and his direct email address is: np**@orange.net

You can also IM him on AIM at: furkinfedup

Aside from attempting to post to newsgroups anonymously, he describes
himself as a 22 year old currently living on the South Coast of England


"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" <onyxkirx@--NOSPAM--comcast.net> wrote in
message news:O7**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:eU**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Hi Daniel,
While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are
really starting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen no
behaviour by Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their product(and
suggesting it when people ask about decompilers).


Not that I ever denied that, I just absolutly hate that method of
advertising and that is what I percieved it to be. That isn't what the
newsgroup was intended for. If by any chance it wasn't a sales push then
as mr "Vortex" is a possible client or end user of JungleCreatures /
Decompiler.NET, they should conduct their chit chat elsewhere. This
isn't a forum for JungleCreatues to offer support on their products is
it?


Not per se, however it *is* a forum for support and discussion of the
framework, and in some cases supporting a tool related to the framework is
appropriate. Mr. Pierce, in my experiance, has not posted outside of that
particular set of rules.
Your comments on this thread have been inappropriate, as have several
others(CJ Taylor and Brian Henry come to mind), and you comprise what I
would consider those who should go away, atleast from this thread.


Yup, my comments can be *very* inappropriate at times, but I am not
leaving this newsgroup, I've been here long enough now and respect many
of the hard working participants. Just because I am not an MVP, or CJ or
Brian, that is the only reason you are making this statement, which
personally I believe to be unfair. But expected from an MVP, no offence
but sometimes they can get a little too authorative, the status doesnt
come with a uniform does it?


No, there is no uniform. There are nifty lapel pins and an ID card though.

Actually, authoritarian behaviour isn't uncommon among MVP's, however it
is not because they *are* mvps, but because before becoming mvp's they
were highly community minded, including trying to contain the spread of
falsehoods. Most are a little less heavy handed than I am, however.

Also, for the record, I'll bring this up with anyone who behaves like
this. You aren't the first, and I doubt the last, who I will call out for
such behavior. An MVP label(or even an MSFT one) isn't going to deter me
from that.
MVP's tend *not* to start these kind of issues, but they are certainly not
immune.

I personally think your behaviour has been rank and that you don't deserve
a terrible amount of respect from your posts. They are inflamatory,
uncalled for, and intolerably rude.

Believe it or not, I am a regular of this group and do not always get
irate by this kind of thing, but sometimes I do. If *you* don't like
what you read, put it in your "block list".


I am well aware you are a regular, but that doesn't excuse you from
behaving badly.

And, for what its worth, I don't use a block list. Everyone has a right to
have their say and to deal with the feedback from it. You are welcome to
continue with your harrasement, I certainly can't stop you, but I
certainly am not going to bow out while you act up. I will say, when I
feel it is appropriate, my thoughts on your posts.
The original poster is frustrating, to be sure, but you are being just
as bad. This is not a forum for conspiracy theories or for bashing other
people, even if they make a product you don't care for.


Oh well, pots and kettles, but you are not the referee, so there is no
need to start blowing your whistle.


Nor is there a need for you to harrass people. Live with it.

Nov 16 '05 #120

P: n/a
Nak
LOL!

And, your point is?

Nick.

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:s2******************@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Daniel,

If you are interested in contacting Nick Pateman directly, his personal
web page is here:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/nickpatemanpwp/

and his direct email address is: np**@orange.net

You can also IM him on AIM at: furkinfedup

Aside from attempting to post to newsgroups anonymously, he describes
himself as a 22 year old currently living on the South Coast of England


"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" <onyxkirx@--NOSPAM--comcast.net> wrote in
message news:O7**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:eU**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Hi Daniel,

While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are
really starting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen no
behaviour by Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their product(and
suggesting it when people ask about decompilers).

Not that I ever denied that, I just absolutly hate that method of
advertising and that is what I percieved it to be. That isn't what the
newsgroup was intended for. If by any chance it wasn't a sales push
then as mr "Vortex" is a possible client or end user of JungleCreatures
/ Decompiler.NET, they should conduct their chit chat elsewhere. This
isn't a forum for JungleCreatues to offer support on their products is
it?


Not per se, however it *is* a forum for support and discussion of the
framework, and in some cases supporting a tool related to the framework
is appropriate. Mr. Pierce, in my experiance, has not posted outside of
that particular set of rules.
Your comments on this thread have been inappropriate, as have several
others(CJ Taylor and Brian Henry come to mind), and you comprise what I
would consider those who should go away, atleast from this thread.

Yup, my comments can be *very* inappropriate at times, but I am not
leaving this newsgroup, I've been here long enough now and respect many
of the hard working participants. Just because I am not an MVP, or CJ
or Brian, that is the only reason you are making this statement, which
personally I believe to be unfair. But expected from an MVP, no offence
but sometimes they can get a little too authorative, the status doesnt
come with a uniform does it?


No, there is no uniform. There are nifty lapel pins and an ID card
though.

Actually, authoritarian behaviour isn't uncommon among MVP's, however it
is not because they *are* mvps, but because before becoming mvp's they
were highly community minded, including trying to contain the spread of
falsehoods. Most are a little less heavy handed than I am, however.

Also, for the record, I'll bring this up with anyone who behaves like
this. You aren't the first, and I doubt the last, who I will call out for
such behavior. An MVP label(or even an MSFT one) isn't going to deter me
from that.
MVP's tend *not* to start these kind of issues, but they are certainly
not immune.

I personally think your behaviour has been rank and that you don't
deserve a terrible amount of respect from your posts. They are
inflamatory, uncalled for, and intolerably rude.

Believe it or not, I am a regular of this group and do not always get
irate by this kind of thing, but sometimes I do. If *you* don't like
what you read, put it in your "block list".


I am well aware you are a regular, but that doesn't excuse you from
behaving badly.

And, for what its worth, I don't use a block list. Everyone has a right
to have their say and to deal with the feedback from it. You are welcome
to continue with your harrasement, I certainly can't stop you, but I
certainly am not going to bow out while you act up. I will say, when I
feel it is appropriate, my thoughts on your posts.
The original poster is frustrating, to be sure, but you are being just
as bad. This is not a forum for conspiracy theories or for bashing
other people, even if they make a product you don't care for.

Oh well, pots and kettles, but you are not the referee, so there is
no need to start blowing your whistle.


Nor is there a need for you to harrass people. Live with it.


Nov 16 '05 #121

P: n/a
Daniel,

And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if it
was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.

You should have seen his post previous year that was really top flaming
especialy when he did it with his mate.

:-)

Cor
Nov 16 '05 #122

P: n/a
Nak
Nick,

I understand the reasoning behind using a false email address to avoid
receiving spam, but there is no point in attempting to hide your identity
when making inappropriate comments as Daniel described since often
relatively easy to ascertain the true identity of the author of posted
messages by users using an alias to conceal their true identity. Posting
anonymously also detracts from your credibility for usets who read the
contents of your posts.

Nak

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:O7*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
LOL!

And, your point is?

Nick.

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:s2******************@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Daniel,

If you are interested in contacting Nick Pateman directly, his personal
web page is here:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/nickpatemanpwp/

and his direct email address is: np**@orange.net

You can also IM him on AIM at: furkinfedup

Aside from attempting to post to newsgroups anonymously, he describes
himself as a 22 year old currently living on the South Coast of England


"Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP]" <onyxkirx@--NOSPAM--comcast.net> wrote in
message news:O7**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:eU**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Hi Daniel,

> While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are
> really starting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen
> no behaviour by Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their
> product(and suggesting it when people ask about decompilers).

Not that I ever denied that, I just absolutly hate that method of
advertising and that is what I percieved it to be. That isn't what the
newsgroup was intended for. If by any chance it wasn't a sales push
then as mr "Vortex" is a possible client or end user of JungleCreatures
/ Decompiler.NET, they should conduct their chit chat elsewhere. This
isn't a forum for JungleCreatues to offer support on their products is
it?
Not per se, however it *is* a forum for support and discussion of the
framework, and in some cases supporting a tool related to the framework
is appropriate. Mr. Pierce, in my experiance, has not posted outside of
that particular set of rules.

> Your comments on this thread have been inappropriate, as have several
> others(CJ Taylor and Brian Henry come to mind), and you comprise what
> I would consider those who should go away, atleast from this thread.

Yup, my comments can be *very* inappropriate at times, but I am not
leaving this newsgroup, I've been here long enough now and respect many
of the hard working participants. Just because I am not an MVP, or CJ
or Brian, that is the only reason you are making this statement, which
personally I believe to be unfair. But expected from an MVP, no
offence but sometimes they can get a little too authorative, the status
doesnt come with a uniform does it?

No, there is no uniform. There are nifty lapel pins and an ID card
though.

Actually, authoritarian behaviour isn't uncommon among MVP's, however it
is not because they *are* mvps, but because before becoming mvp's they
were highly community minded, including trying to contain the spread of
falsehoods. Most are a little less heavy handed than I am, however.

Also, for the record, I'll bring this up with anyone who behaves like
this. You aren't the first, and I doubt the last, who I will call out
for such behavior. An MVP label(or even an MSFT one) isn't going to
deter me from that.
MVP's tend *not* to start these kind of issues, but they are certainly
not immune.

I personally think your behaviour has been rank and that you don't
deserve a terrible amount of respect from your posts. They are
inflamatory, uncalled for, and intolerably rude.

Believe it or not, I am a regular of this group and do not always
get irate by this kind of thing, but sometimes I do. If *you* don't
like what you read, put it in your "block list".
I am well aware you are a regular, but that doesn't excuse you from
behaving badly.

And, for what its worth, I don't use a block list. Everyone has a right
to have their say and to deal with the feedback from it. You are welcome
to continue with your harrasement, I certainly can't stop you, but I
certainly am not going to bow out while you act up. I will say, when I
feel it is appropriate, my thoughts on your posts.

> The original poster is frustrating, to be sure, but you are being just
> as bad. This is not a forum for conspiracy theories or for bashing
> other people, even if they make a product you don't care for.

Oh well, pots and kettles, but you are not the referee, so there is
no need to start blowing your whistle.
Nor is there a need for you to harrass people. Live with it.



Nov 16 '05 #123

P: n/a
Nak
Hi Cor,
And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if
it
was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.
I haven't been 100% nice in this thread, and have no intention of
starting. Yes that is my email address and web site, but I'm unsure as to
*why* it has been posted. Obviously someone with allot of spare time on
their hands, "as if I don't know who".
You should have seen his post previous year that was really top flaming
especialy when he did it with his mate.


I have strong views just the same as everyone else, and last year their
were some heated discussions being has as I was developing software 24/7.
It gets to you at times when your not having much luck with whatever your
currently working on.

Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if any
of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me. And
believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go on a mission
to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.

Nick.
Nov 16 '05 #124

P: n/a
Nak
And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if
it
was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.

You may have been correct in your original intuition.

Perhaps Nick's true identity was exposed by someone who wanted to make him
accountable for his inappropriate posts where he attempted to conceal his
true identity. His postings this year seem to be consistent with your
observations regarding his style of flaming and overall disposition.

Nak
Nov 16 '05 #125

P: n/a
Nak
Excuse me ?,
I understand the reasoning behind using a false email address to avoid
receiving spam, but there is no point in attempting to hide your identity
when making inappropriate comments as Daniel described since often
relatively easy to ascertain the true identity of the author of posted
messages by users using an alias to conceal their true identity. Posting
anonymously also detracts from your credibility for usets who read the
contents of your posts.


I am *not* hiding my identity and never have, I have no need for my
email address in here, I have posted my web address in here many times and
if anyone wanted to find out about me they need only go visit it.

I don't believe you have the right to post my details, do you? But
whatever, you have done it now anyway, and that is far worse than any
flaming I have done in this newsgroup. It not only violates the data
protections act but it is also a very sly thing to do. But you're obviously
a very sly person because your consealing your identity far more than *I*
ever have, or have any desire to.

By the way, I don't post for credability, I post for resolving problems,
and sometimes to help others if I see that they are stick with something
that I can help with. But I have no intention of building up "credit" so
that I can apply for MVP status, that is something I do not care for.

Nick.
Nov 16 '05 #126

P: n/a
Nak
Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a Troll!, oh deary me!

Nick.

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:Tr***********************@twister.nyc.rr.com. ..
And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if
it
was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.

You may have been correct in your original intuition.

Perhaps Nick's true identity was exposed by someone who wanted to make him
accountable for his inappropriate posts where he attempted to conceal his
true identity. His postings this year seem to be consistent with your
observations regarding his style of flaming and overall disposition.

Nak

Nov 16 '05 #127

P: n/a
Nak

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:ul**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Nick,

It may not be in your best interest to request that moderators review your
posts since many of them are inappropriate and often inconsistent with their
posting guidelines.

Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if
any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me.
And believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go on a mission
to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.


I doubt that moderators are interested in assisting you in concealing your
identity so that you can continue to make inappropriate posts inconsistent
with their posting guidelines.
If you have strong opinions, you should be willing to stand behind them by
identifying yourself rather than making unsupported claims that you do not
wish to be held accountable for.

Nak
Nov 16 '05 #128

P: n/a
Anyone else confused?

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:ul**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Hi Cor,
And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if it
was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.
I haven't been 100% nice in this thread, and have no intention of
starting. Yes that is my email address and web site, but I'm unsure as to
*why* it has been posted. Obviously someone with allot of spare time on
their hands, "as if I don't know who".
You should have seen his post previous year that was really top flaming
especialy when he did it with his mate.


I have strong views just the same as everyone else, and last year

their were some heated discussions being has as I was developing software 24/7.
It gets to you at times when your not having much luck with whatever your
currently working on.

Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me. And
believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go on a mission
to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.

Nick.

Nov 16 '05 #129

P: n/a
Nak
Yes John!

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:%A***********************@twister.nyc.rr.com. ..

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:ul**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Nick,

It may not be in your best interest to request that moderators review your
posts since many of them are inappropriate and often inconsistent with
their posting guidelines.

Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if
any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me.
And believe me, I would be greatly appreciative,

I would never go on a mission
to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.


I doubt that moderators are interested in assisting you in concealing your
identity so that you can continue to make inappropriate posts inconsistent
with their posting guidelines.
If you have strong opinions, you should be willing to stand behind them by
identifying yourself rather than making unsupported claims that you do not
wish to be held accountable for.

Nak

Nov 16 '05 #130

P: n/a
Nak
CJ,

LOL!, not really, I know who it is, I can do simple maths.

Nick.

"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:OM**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Anyone else confused?

"Nak" <a@a.com> wrote in message
news:ul**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Hi Cor,
> And I find Nick so extremly nice writing at the moment, I was in doubt if > it
> was Nick, however now he wrote he is Nick Patterman, it should be him.


I haven't been 100% nice in this thread, and have no intention of
starting. Yes that is my email address and web site, but I'm unsure as
to
*why* it has been posted. Obviously someone with allot of spare time on
their hands, "as if I don't know who".
> You should have seen his post previous year that was really top flaming
> especialy when he did it with his mate.


I have strong views just the same as everyone else, and last year

their
were some heated discussions being has as I was developing software 24/7.
It gets to you at times when your not having much luck with whatever your
currently working on.

Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so if

any
of them were half decent they would have that post removed for me. And
believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go on a
mission
to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very sad! Anyways.

Nick.


Nov 16 '05 #131

P: n/a
Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in this
thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.

Steve
Nov 16 '05 #132

P: n/a
Nak
Hey!

I had left the thread until I noticed my personal details appear!!!, sheesh!

But yes, I agree, it's childish, and I would also like my email address
removed, I don't mind giving it in an "obfuscated" way, but not clear text
in this group. Not that it will get removed!

Nick.

"Steve McLellan" <sjm.NOSPAM AT fixerlabs DOT com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in
this
thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.

Steve

Nov 16 '05 #133

P: n/a
Steve,

Thanks for attempting to inject some sanity back into this group. This is a
technical forum and many users are interested in discussing the issues
associated with .NET decompilation and obfuscation. Since the title of this
thread mentions our product directly, I am particularly interested in
keeping the discussions on a technical level and relevant to the interst of
readers in this group. I appreciate your attempts to monitor this thread and
ensure that discussions here remain technical and relevant in nature.

I will continue to monitor the thread as well and answer technical issues
related to decompilation, obfuscation, refactoring, or directly related to
our product mentioned here.

Readers are also free to contact me directly at su*****@junglecreatures.com

Jonathan Pierce
President
Jungle Creatures, Inc.
http://www.junglecreatures.com/

"Steve McLellan" <sjm.NOSPAM AT fixerlabs DOT com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Guys, maybe you want to take this offline? I was actually interested in
this
thread, but I'm giving up trying to monitor it as you two seem to have
nothing better to do than sling ineffectual insults around and it's become
mindlessly tedious to try to find the posts with some actual content.

Steve

Nov 16 '05 #134

P: n/a
Jonathan Pierce wrote:
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <pe******************@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:<xn***************@msnews.microsoft.com>...
Oh, your obfuscator obviously produces 100% reliable code,
I'm sure, but I don't live in dreamland.

Yes it does. You should try it before you make assumptions about it.


It would be the first obfuscator being able to do so.
Our obfuscator generates equivalent obfuscated source code with
refactored public members and encrypted literals that you recompile.
No pre-jitted x86 code? No reshuffled code ? you have to if you want to do
the more advanced obfuscation that you claim to be able to do.
Each version of Decompiler.NET that we release is decompiled and
obfuscated with itself, and then recompiled to produce the version
that ships. Most bugs introduced by decompilation or obfuscation would
cause the recompiled version of our product to not work correctly, so
we would detect them before even releasing the build.


That's not the point. The point is: can reshuffling, prejitting be safe for
100%? Every obfuscator I tried (on .NET and java) have the same issues: code
obfuscated is sometimes failing in weird situations, often related to 3rd
party controls in combination with events.

Unless theoretic proof is provided that the code is 100% compatible with
non-obfuscated code, every vendor obfuscating their work will be required to
retest the obfuscated executable from start to finish.

FB
--
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP
Nov 16 '05 #135

P: n/a
Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
marker, would you all have been as assinine?

I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's who
don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it off
as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.

Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about the
title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.

This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that. The consistent harrassment of
someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been started.
However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect to
be treated badly as a result.

Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these newsgroups.
Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
microsoft.

If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of the
team), I just forget who.

"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:ev*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
BTW,

I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
compare it to something like RSA.

So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
make
sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.


Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make *ONE*
off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what was
still visible in my reader window.
Nov 16 '05 #136

P: n/a
Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
marker, would you all have been as assinine?

Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have
made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with it.

The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big brother
to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
*lazy* tactics
to scan the groups and see that.
I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's who don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it off as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.

Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about the title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.

Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be
binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding
part of the MVP? What's holding you back?

So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And because
of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines when
to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?

if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid after
all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means I
have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel good.
This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.
Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we are all
agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation insisiting
that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself included)
explained we already knew.
The consistent harrassment of
someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been started.

What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't think
many others do either.
However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect to be treated badly as a result.

Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for
Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone
says about there software as truth?

So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.
Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these newsgroups.
Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
microsoft.

I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read more
carefully.
If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of the team), I just forget who.
> BTW,
I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
compare it to something like RSA.

So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
make
sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.


Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make

*ONE* off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what was
still visible in my reader window.


2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe one
day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...


Nov 16 '05 #137

P: n/a
CJ,

I feel that Daniel was completely justified in his attempts to moderate this
forum in attempts to keep the discussion technical in nature and to point
out his observations regarding inappropriate, inaccurate, and often
harassing posts.
What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
think
many others do either.
I don't know whether Daniel was referring to the harassment of the post
authors he mentioned with regard to the original post author or to myself,
but I personally felt harrassed and was forced to respond to inaccurate
accusations about our companues products to defend our companies reputation.
I would much prefer to spend my time answering technical questions relevant
to the topic of decompilation, obfuscation, and refactoring being discussed
in this thread.

There were many posts in this thread mainly from the users that Daniel
mentioned that were antagonistic, and made inaccurate claims about our
product and company ranging from statements regarding having illegally
decompiled our source code, to threats about posting it publicly, to
accusations that we did not author our own code or give proper credit to the
3rd party libraries that we legally licensed and credit in our About Box.

I appreciate your apology earlier but now you are reverting to a similar
style of defensive behavior that Daniel has taken his time to point out.

I'd personally like to stop having to waste my time defending our company
against inaccurate knowingly false malicious accusations about our product
and inaccurate vague assumptions that and statements that are libelous in
nature and directly harm us financially. It would be nice to be able to keep
these discussions technical in nature with an even tone but I've found that
aside from responding to posts asking their authors to back up their false
and derogatory statements, my only alternative will be to pursue legal
resources to recover damages made to our company and it's reputation.

I applaud Daniel 100% for his actions here, and would like to see more MVP's
become more vocal in moderating these forums. I also think that these
technical newsgroups should be restricted to not accept anonymous or spoofed
messages or at mininum, flag them as not credible posts.

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:er*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
marker, would you all have been as assinine?


Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have
made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with
it.

The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big
brother
to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
*lazy* tactics
to scan the groups and see that.
I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's

who
don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it

off
as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.

Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of
you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about

the
title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.


Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be
binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding
part of the MVP? What's holding you back?

So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And
because
of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines
when
to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?

if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid after
all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means
I
have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel
good.
This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.


Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we are
all
agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation insisiting
that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself included)
explained we already knew.
The consistent harrassment of
someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been

started.

What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
think
many others do either.
However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect

to
be treated badly as a result.


Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for
Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone
says about there software as truth?

So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.
Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these
newsgroups.
Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
microsoft.


I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read
more
carefully.
If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of

the
team), I just forget who.
> BTW,
>
> I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either
> talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and
> compare it to something like RSA.
>
> So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge
> make
> sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.


Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make

*ONE*
off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what
was
still visible in my reader window.


2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe one
day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...

Nov 16 '05 #138

P: n/a
Nak <a@a.com> wrote:
Also, I have posted a complaint to ab***@microsoft.com, if that's the
correct address. Apparently these groups are moderated by MVP's, so
if any of them were half decent they would have that post removed for
me. And believe me, I would be greatly appreciative, I would never go
on a mission to do that to anyone else, why do that to me? Pah, very
sad! Anyways.


This group is effectively unmoderated - it's certainly not moderated by
MVPs. If a particular post warrants removal, I believe anyone can make
a complaint. (It may be dealt with more swiftly if the person
complaining is an MVP, but that's about it.)

Daniel wasn't moderating the group - he was expressing his opinions
about some posts, as have other people on the thread.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 16 '05 #139

P: n/a
Jonathan,
CJ,

I feel that Daniel was completely justified in his attempts to moderate this forum in attempts to keep the discussion technical in nature and to point
out his observations regarding inappropriate, inaccurate, and often
harassing posts.

He's not a moderator... As for inaccurate? There are several messages on
here from several reputable sources that state your software didn't
decompile things 100%. In fact many stating you can't.
What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
think
many others do either.


I don't know whether Daniel was referring to the harassment of the post
authors he mentioned with regard to the original post author or to myself,
but I personally felt harrassed and was forced to respond to inaccurate
accusations about our companues products to defend our companies

reputation. I would much prefer to spend my time answering technical questions relevant to the topic of decompilation, obfuscation, and refactoring being discussed in this thread.

Welcome to being a president Jon. Did you expect it to be all flowers and
fun trips?

There are many times I would like to spend my time doing what I want to..
but its just not in the cards.
There were many posts in this thread mainly from the users that Daniel
mentioned that were antagonistic, and made inaccurate claims about our
product and company ranging from statements regarding having illegally
decompiled our source code,
Illegally decompiling your source code? You wrote a decompiler... It's like
the old warez statement of "You can use it, but only for 24 hours". You
gave the tool, but expect it not to be used on yourself? what better
test...
to threats about posting it publicly, to
accusations that we did not author our own code or give proper credit to the 3rd party libraries that we legally licensed and credit in our About Box.

2 things.. if your obfusicator works so well... non issue... I don't
remember too many comments about not using your own code, I just remember
comments of saying your own code doesn't work. Sorry, but if people say it
doesn't work... well it doesn't work... Feel lucky it's here and not a
major client.

I appreciate your apology earlier but now you are reverting to a similar
style of defensive behavior that Daniel has taken his time to point out.

I was defending accusations that daniel made agasint me. Should I just grab
my ankles and take it from him?
I'd personally like to stop having to waste my time defending our company
Mmm.. again.. your a president... that's your job... accept it or get a new
one.
against inaccurate knowingly false malicious accusations about our product
and inaccurate vague assumptions that and statements that are libelous in
nature and directly harm us financially.
How false they are. I don't know. But if people are saying they used your
product, and it didn't work, thats not exactly false. That article which
you refer to has comments posted by users stating the bias of the article as
well as the fact your software didn't work. Cmon man? This many people are
wrong?
It would be nice to be able to keep
these discussions technical in nature with an even tone but I've found that aside from responding to posts asking their authors to back up their false
and derogatory statements, my only alternative will be to pursue legal
resources to recover damages made to our company and it's reputation.

You go for that... Because *that* would be a good administrative decision.
go sue a bunch of people, spend thousands in legal costs to get back....
what?

I applaud Daniel 100% for his actions here, and would like to see more MVP's become more vocal in moderating these forums. I also think that these
technical newsgroups should be restricted to not accept anonymous or spoofed messages or at mininum, flag them as not credible posts.

hmmm... well, I think you and Vortex need to keep reading up on "How things
work". After all... thats what news groups are.. anonymous messages...

While your at it, why don't you rewrite the SMTP protocal along with NNTP so
it works how you want it to... After all, everyone else thinks you did a
bang up job on your Decompiler/Obfusicator

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:er*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
marker, would you all have been as assinine?


Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with
it.

The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big
brother
to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
*lazy* tactics
to scan the groups and see that.
I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's

who
don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it
off
as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the
label tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.

Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about the
title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.


Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding part of the MVP? What's holding you back?

So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And
because
of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines
when
to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?

if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid after
all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means I
have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel
good.
This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.


Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we are
all
agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation insisiting
that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself included)
explained we already knew.
The consistent harrassment of
someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been

started.

What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
was
wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
think
many others do either.
However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one,
expect to
be treated badly as a result.


Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone says about there software as truth?

So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.
Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these
newsgroups.
Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
microsoft.


I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read
more
carefully.
If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part
of the
team), I just forget who.

> BTW,
>
> I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am
either > talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and > compare it to something like RSA.
>
> So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge > make
> sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.

Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make

*ONE*
off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what
was
still visible in my reader window.


2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe

one day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...


Nov 16 '05 #140

P: n/a
CJ Taylor wrote:

The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big brother
to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
*lazy* tactics to scan the groups and see that.


No offence, but you are not the newsgroup god either to tell other people
how to act or what they should or shouldn't do, however you try to do exactly
that. If you are so bitter about someone having an MVP title, that's your
problem, not anyone elses. Please keep the MVP title out of your discussion
tactics.

Frans.

--
Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET Blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft C# MVP
Nov 16 '05 #141

P: n/a
CJ,

There are several messages on
here from several reputable sources that state your software didn't
decompile things 100%. In fact many stating you can't.
I haven't seen any such statements in this thread or otherwise aside from
the non-credible harassing ones.

I have not seen any posts in this or other threads consistent with what you
are claiming about anyone having any problems decompiling code with our
product. The only mention was a positive one made by William Stacey
indicating that he was impressed by the work that went into the product
after being able to partially decompile an assembly obfuscated with control
flow obfuscation by XenoCode. We never claimed that our product supported
handling all of the tricks inserted by obfuscators to foil decompilers.
Other than that, I've seen no posts regarding any bugs in our product or
problems that users had using it to compile or run their assemblies
correctly. The only claims that I have seen have been unsubstatiated
harassment oriented claims whose authors later backed down and confirmed
that they in fact either never tried the product, or just made assumptions
about what they would expect based on their experience with other products.
I've constantly requested that any users that experience any problems post
reproduceable concrete examples and that I would address them immediately.
The reality is that we have no outstanding bugs, our product works 100% as
claimed, and the independant users who actually have tried it have given it
rave reviews both in the press and statements made by our extremly happy
customers. We've also provided free consulting to our customers to assist
them with the projects for which they were using our products to assist
them.

As far as our competitors tools are concerned, we have gone to considerable
length to assist them by isolating bugs in their tools that we discovered,
and sending them reproduceable examples and correct code solutions. I've
personally reported more than 10 bugs to Reflector's author and had numerous
correspondences with him assisting him by providing reproduceable code
samples that illustrate the bugs that I've identified for him, and testing
his intermediate versions for him to confirm that he has successfully
addressed them before he releases the version publicly. I've also given
similar feedback to the Borland regarding Spices.NET along with a
complimentary copy of my product so they could do code generation and
feature comparison.

Illegally decompiling your source code? You wrote a decompiler... It's
like
the old warez statement of "You can use it, but only for 24 hours". You
gave the tool, but expect it not to be used on yourself? what better
test...
We use our own decompiler on itself to produce each build that we ship by
decompiling it with our obfuscation feature, recomping it, and shipping the
recompiled version. You are correct that this does provide a very good test
of whether it is working well since the build is produced by correctly
decompiled obfuscated code from the same version each time we ship.

Nonetheless, our EULA does prohibit end users from attempting to decompile
it with our decompiler or anyone elses. We also taken several steps to
prevent this by disabling it from acting on our own assemblies, obfuscating
our own code, and encrypting our obfuscated assembly and embedding it within
another obfuscated loader assembly. Besides these deterrents, we are
prepared to utilize our legal counsel if necessary to enforce the agreement
against users who attempt to crack or distribute unlicensed versions of our
products.

2 things.. if your obfusicator works so well... non issue... I don't
remember too many comments about not using your own code, I just remember
comments of saying your own code doesn't work. Sorry, but if people say
it
doesn't work... well it doesn't work... Feel lucky it's here and not a
major client.
Noone credible has made such statements. The only statements made about our
product not working were by users like Nak who later admitted that they
never even downloaded our product and that their statements were knowingly
false and malicious attempts to distort readers impressions of our products
and discredit our reputation.
If you can identify any such posts, please let me know and I'll be glad to
clear up the misunderstanding and the misrepresentation being propagated
here.

Since noone actually made such claims aside from antagonistic
non-reproduceable knowingly false statements intended to falsely discredit
our product, there is no way such claims could be made by a major client.
The reality is that our product does really work 100%, we use it ourselves
on every release, and all of our customers are extremely happy with their
experience with it and appreciate it fully. If any customer did encounter
any problem, they would still be satisfied by the immediate response that
our support provides. Our customers have actually apologized to us for
reporting non-issues and feeling guilty for wasting our time and the speed
at which we responded to them addressing their questions.

How false they are. I don't know. But if people are saying they used
your
product, and it didn't work, thats not exactly false. That article which
you refer to has comments posted by users stating the bias of the article
as
well as the fact your software didn't work. Cmon man? This many people
are
wrong?
Again, there have been no such statements made in this thread or in the
feedback from the article that you are referring to. All of the claims in
the discussion response to the article were focused around defending
Reflector against accurate reproduceable bugs identified by the author's
article. All of the negative criticism was also made by anonymous posters
possibly the same person who made general statements about Reflector being
good enough to meet his needs. I have not seen any claims that anyone had
problems using our product including the author of the article and the
anonymous user who criticized the author's conclusions. As far as bias goes,
I already explained that I had no relationship with the author aside from
granting him permission to review our product, and providing updated public
releases to address any issues identified by ourselves, our customers, or
the author. Not only did the author provide the same opportunities to the
other vendors that he reviewed, but I personally sent nearly 20 bug reports
to each of my competitors starting as early as 04/2004 six months before the
article was published. The author chose his own examples in attempts to find
unusual constructs that woudl foil all of the products including ours,
requested support from all of the vendors involved, and formed his own
conclusions based on his own experiences using each of the products that he
tested from an unbiased perspective. Obviously, after finishing his testing,
his experience varied and he formed opinions as to which product best met
his needs and shared them in his conclusions. This is the entire point of
doing the review in the first place.
You go for that... Because *that* would be a good administrative
decision.
go sue a bunch of people, spend thousands in legal costs to get back....
what?

It's difficult to measure the amount of potential lost revenue that might be
caused by knowingly false libelous statements being made about us, but
clearly anyone attempting to crack or distribute unlicensed copies of our
product would merit us investigating the source thoroughly and enforcing our
claims to the legal extent available to us.

While your at it, why don't you rewrite the SMTP protocal along with NNTP
so
it works how you want it to... After all, everyone else thinks you did a
bang up job on your Decompiler/Obfusicator
There are moderated groups where all messages are reviewed before being
forwarded to the actual public group.At a minimum, messages from invalid
email hosts could be automatically rejected by an automated proxy.

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... Jonathan,
CJ,

I feel that Daniel was completely justified in his attempts to moderate

this
forum in attempts to keep the discussion technical in nature and to point
out his observations regarding inappropriate, inaccurate, and often
harassing posts.


He's not a moderator... As for inaccurate? >
> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.


I don't know whether Daniel was referring to the harassment of the post
authors he mentioned with regard to the original post author or to
myself,
but I personally felt harrassed and was forced to respond to inaccurate
accusations about our companues products to defend our companies

reputation.
I would much prefer to spend my time answering technical questions

relevant
to the topic of decompilation, obfuscation, and refactoring being

discussed
in this thread.


Welcome to being a president Jon. Did you expect it to be all flowers and
fun trips?

There are many times I would like to spend my time doing what I want to..
but its just not in the cards.
There were many posts in this thread mainly from the users that Daniel
mentioned that were antagonistic, and made inaccurate claims about our
product and company ranging from statements regarding having illegally
decompiled our source code,


Illegally decompiling your source code? You wrote a decompiler... It's
like
the old warez statement of "You can use it, but only for 24 hours". You
gave the tool, but expect it not to be used on yourself? what better
test...
to threats about posting it publicly, to
accusations that we did not author our own code or give proper credit to

the
3rd party libraries that we legally licensed and credit in our About Box.


2 things.. if your obfusicator works so well... non issue... I don't
remember too many comments about not using your own code, I just remember
comments of saying your own code doesn't work. Sorry, but if people say
it
doesn't work... well it doesn't work... Feel lucky it's here and not a
major client.

I appreciate your apology earlier but now you are reverting to a similar
style of defensive behavior that Daniel has taken his time to point out.


I was defending accusations that daniel made agasint me. Should I just
grab
my ankles and take it from him?
I'd personally like to stop having to waste my time defending our company


Mmm.. again.. your a president... that's your job... accept it or get a
new
one.
against inaccurate knowingly false malicious accusations about our
product
and inaccurate vague assumptions that and statements that are libelous in
nature and directly harm us financially.


How false they are. I don't know. But if people are saying they used
your
product, and it didn't work, thats not exactly false. That article which
you refer to has comments posted by users stating the bias of the article
as
well as the fact your software didn't work. Cmon man? This many people
are
wrong?
It would be nice to be able to keep
these discussions technical in nature with an even tone but I've found

that
aside from responding to posts asking their authors to back up their
false
and derogatory statements, my only alternative will be to pursue legal
resources to recover damages made to our company and it's reputation.


You go for that... Because *that* would be a good administrative
decision.
go sue a bunch of people, spend thousands in legal costs to get back....
what?

I applaud Daniel 100% for his actions here, and would like to see more

MVP's
become more vocal in moderating these forums. I also think that these
technical newsgroups should be restricted to not accept anonymous or

spoofed
messages or at mininum, flag them as not credible posts.


hmmm... well, I think you and Vortex need to keep reading up on "How
things
work". After all... thats what news groups are.. anonymous messages...

While your at it, why don't you rewrite the SMTP protocal along with NNTP
so
it works how you want it to... After all, everyone else thinks you did a
bang up job on your Decompiler/Obfusicator

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:er*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
>> Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
>> marker, would you all have been as assinine?
>>
>
> Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I have > made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post with
> it.
>
> The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big
> brother
> to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use your
> *lazy* tactics
> to scan the groups and see that.
>
>> I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several
>> mvp's
> who
>> don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it > off
>> as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label >> tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.
>>
>> Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three of >> you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing about > the
>> title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.
>>
>
> Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can be > binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the binding > part of the MVP? What's holding you back?
>
> So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And
> because
> of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines
> when
> to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?
>
> if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid
> after
> all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it means > I
> have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
> get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel
> good.
>
>> This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.
>
> Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we
> are
> all
> agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation
> insisiting
> that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself
> included)
> explained we already knew.
>
>>The consistent harrassment of
>> someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been
> started.
>
> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.
>
>> However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one, expect > to
>> be treated badly as a result.
>>
>
> Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as for > Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
> decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever anyone > says about there software as truth?
>
> So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would say.
>
>> Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these
>> newsgroups.
>> Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
>> microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone within
>> microsoft.
>>
>
> I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read
> more
> carefully.
>
>> If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part of > the
>> team), I just forget who.
>>
>>> > BTW,
>> >
>> > I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am either >> > talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew and >> > compare it to something like RSA.
>> >
>> > So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID badge >> > make
>> > sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.
>>
>> Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make
> *ONE*
>> off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using what
>> was
>> still visible in my reader window.
>>
>>
>
> 2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I made
> trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe one > day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...
>
>
>
>



Nov 16 '05 #142

P: n/a
Learn to read you ignomious buffoon. What I am saying, although I doubt
you'll understand this any better than anything else you've replied to on
this thread, is that because I *AM* an MVP, you are acting like a crabby
little peasent who's been stepped on by some Chaldean god. Thus, the bind.
Any comment I make is usually automatically either instantly accepted or
instantly rejected based on title alone. You've certainly shown that here. I
suppose you could call it a race card, but it is certainly not one I play.
All discrimination is your's alone. I do not hide my MVP status from anyone
on appropriate forums.

Your arrogant behavior, your posturing, your disregard for courtesy all seem
to stem from my title. So, the conclusion I draw is that, by me being an
MVP, you don't feel my particular opinoin has any merit. You three were
being, and some of you continue to be, I might add, little children running
around ranting and raving about things you either don't understand or plain
don't care enough about to apply any knowledge you actually have. That is
all there is too it. I don't particularly care if no one else shares my
opinion, but as far as I can tell thats how things have gone. Your behavior
since my original post certainly hasn't suggested otherwise to me.

I will treat you badly, for the moment anyway. You certainly don't deserve
anything better. You're participation in this thread, to a lesser degree
than others granted, has been primarily distasteful, if not downright
disgusting.

Nov 16 '05 #143

P: n/a
>> That article which
you refer to has comments ... as the fact your software didn't work.
CJ,

I went back and confirmed that this statement is entirely untrue. I reread
all of the comments on the discussion forum about the August 2004 article,
and reread the published version of the comments from the September 2004
issue and confirmed that there were absolutely no comments made by anyone,
anonymous or not, related to problems using Decompiler.NET to decompile and
run there code 100% correctly. I would appreciate it if you would do the
same so that you can confirm for yourself that my claims here have always
been accurate and that what you thought you remembered was actually not
true. The only comments mentioning bugs in the article feedback discussion
were made by me about bugs that still exist in the competor's tools. The
rest of the discussion was related to incorrect presumptions that the
article's author was biased prior to his evaluation, and my responses to
those claims suggesting that customers download all of the products
themselves and personally confirm the conclusions made by the author of the
article. All of the discussion comments were published by the magazine
editor in the September, 2004 issue, and I have made the article available
on my web site so that you can confirm the assertions that I have made here
and elsewhere in this and other threads.

http://www.junglecreatures.com/press...ilerDebate.pdf

Jonathan Pierce
President
Jungle Creatures, Inc.
http://www.junglecreatures,com/
"Jonathan Pierce" <su*****@junglecreatures.com> wrote in message
news:Te***********************@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. CJ,

There are several messages on
here from several reputable sources that state your software didn't
decompile things 100%. In fact many stating you can't.


I haven't seen any such statements in this thread or otherwise aside from
the non-credible harassing ones.

I have not seen any posts in this or other threads consistent with what
you are claiming about anyone having any problems decompiling code with
our product. The only mention was a positive one made by William Stacey
indicating that he was impressed by the work that went into the product
after being able to partially decompile an assembly obfuscated with
control flow obfuscation by XenoCode. We never claimed that our product
supported handling all of the tricks inserted by obfuscators to foil
decompilers. Other than that, I've seen no posts regarding any bugs in our
product or problems that users had using it to compile or run their
assemblies correctly. The only claims that I have seen have been
unsubstatiated harassment oriented claims whose authors later backed down
and confirmed that they in fact either never tried the product, or just
made assumptions about what they would expect based on their experience
with other products. I've constantly requested that any users that
experience any problems post reproduceable concrete examples and that I
would address them immediately. The reality is that we have no outstanding
bugs, our product works 100% as claimed, and the independant users who
actually have tried it have given it rave reviews both in the press and
statements made by our extremly happy customers. We've also provided free
consulting to our customers to assist them with the projects for which
they were using our products to assist them.

As far as our competitors tools are concerned, we have gone to
considerable length to assist them by isolating bugs in their tools that
we discovered, and sending them reproduceable examples and correct code
solutions. I've personally reported more than 10 bugs to Reflector's
author and had numerous correspondences with him assisting him by
providing reproduceable code samples that illustrate the bugs that I've
identified for him, and testing his intermediate versions for him to
confirm that he has successfully addressed them before he releases the
version publicly. I've also given similar feedback to the Borland
regarding Spices.NET along with a complimentary copy of my product so they
could do code generation and feature comparison.

Illegally decompiling your source code? You wrote a decompiler... It's
like
the old warez statement of "You can use it, but only for 24 hours". You
gave the tool, but expect it not to be used on yourself? what better
test...


We use our own decompiler on itself to produce each build that we ship by
decompiling it with our obfuscation feature, recomping it, and shipping
the recompiled version. You are correct that this does provide a very good
test of whether it is working well since the build is produced by
correctly decompiled obfuscated code from the same version each time we
ship.

Nonetheless, our EULA does prohibit end users from attempting to decompile
it with our decompiler or anyone elses. We also taken several steps to
prevent this by disabling it from acting on our own assemblies,
obfuscating our own code, and encrypting our obfuscated assembly and
embedding it within another obfuscated loader assembly. Besides these
deterrents, we are prepared to utilize our legal counsel if necessary to
enforce the agreement against users who attempt to crack or distribute
unlicensed versions of our products.

2 things.. if your obfusicator works so well... non issue... I don't
remember too many comments about not using your own code, I just remember
comments of saying your own code doesn't work. Sorry, but if people say
it
doesn't work... well it doesn't work... Feel lucky it's here and not a
major client.

Noone credible has made such statements. The only statements made about
our product not working were by users like Nak who later admitted that
they never even downloaded our product and that their statements were
knowingly false and malicious attempts to distort readers impressions of
our products and discredit our reputation.
If you can identify any such posts, please let me know and I'll be glad to
clear up the misunderstanding and the misrepresentation being propagated
here.

Since noone actually made such claims aside from antagonistic
non-reproduceable knowingly false statements intended to falsely discredit
our product, there is no way such claims could be made by a major client.
The reality is that our product does really work 100%, we use it ourselves
on every release, and all of our customers are extremely happy with their
experience with it and appreciate it fully. If any customer did encounter
any problem, they would still be satisfied by the immediate response that
our support provides. Our customers have actually apologized to us for
reporting non-issues and feeling guilty for wasting our time and the speed
at which we responded to them addressing their questions.

How false they are. I don't know. But if people are saying they used
your
product, and it didn't work, thats not exactly false. That article
which
you refer to has comments posted by users stating the bias of the article
as
well as the fact your software didn't work. Cmon man? This many people
are
wrong?


Again, there have been no such statements made in this thread or in the
feedback from the article that you are referring to. All of the claims in
the discussion response to the article were focused around defending
Reflector against accurate reproduceable bugs identified by the author's
article. All of the negative criticism was also made by anonymous posters
possibly the same person who made general statements about Reflector being
good enough to meet his needs. I have not seen any claims that anyone had
problems using our product including the author of the article and the
anonymous user who criticized the author's conclusions. As far as bias
goes, I already explained that I had no relationship with the author aside
from granting him permission to review our product, and providing updated
public releases to address any issues identified by ourselves, our
customers, or the author. Not only did the author provide the same
opportunities to the other vendors that he reviewed, but I personally sent
nearly 20 bug reports to each of my competitors starting as early as
04/2004 six months before the article was published. The author chose his
own examples in attempts to find unusual constructs that woudl foil all of
the products including ours, requested support from all of the vendors
involved, and formed his own conclusions based on his own experiences
using each of the products that he tested from an unbiased perspective.
Obviously, after finishing his testing, his experience varied and he
formed opinions as to which product best met his needs and shared them in
his conclusions. This is the entire point of doing the review in the first
place.
You go for that... Because *that* would be a good administrative
decision.
go sue a bunch of people, spend thousands in legal costs to get back....
what?


It's difficult to measure the amount of potential lost revenue that might
be caused by knowingly false libelous statements being made about us, but
clearly anyone attempting to crack or distribute unlicensed copies of our
product would merit us investigating the source thoroughly and enforcing
our claims to the legal extent available to us.

While your at it, why don't you rewrite the SMTP protocal along with NNTP
so
it works how you want it to... After all, everyone else thinks you did a
bang up job on your Decompiler/Obfusicator


There are moderated groups where all messages are reviewed before being
forwarded to the actual public group.At a minimum, messages from invalid
email hosts could be automatically rejected by an automated proxy.

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Jonathan,
CJ,

I feel that Daniel was completely justified in his attempts to moderate

this
forum in attempts to keep the discussion technical in nature and to
point
out his observations regarding inappropriate, inaccurate, and often
harassing posts.


He's not a moderator... As for inaccurate? >
> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that
> he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.

I don't know whether Daniel was referring to the harassment of the post
authors he mentioned with regard to the original post author or to
myself,
but I personally felt harrassed and was forced to respond to inaccurate
accusations about our companues products to defend our companies

reputation.
I would much prefer to spend my time answering technical questions

relevant
to the topic of decompilation, obfuscation, and refactoring being

discussed
in this thread.


Welcome to being a president Jon. Did you expect it to be all flowers
and
fun trips?

There are many times I would like to spend my time doing what I want to..
but its just not in the cards.
There were many posts in this thread mainly from the users that Daniel
mentioned that were antagonistic, and made inaccurate claims about our
product and company ranging from statements regarding having illegally
decompiled our source code,


Illegally decompiling your source code? You wrote a decompiler... It's
like
the old warez statement of "You can use it, but only for 24 hours". You
gave the tool, but expect it not to be used on yourself? what better
test...
to threats about posting it publicly, to
accusations that we did not author our own code or give proper credit to

the
3rd party libraries that we legally licensed and credit in our About
Box.


2 things.. if your obfusicator works so well... non issue... I don't
remember too many comments about not using your own code, I just remember
comments of saying your own code doesn't work. Sorry, but if people say
it
doesn't work... well it doesn't work... Feel lucky it's here and not a
major client.

I appreciate your apology earlier but now you are reverting to a similar
style of defensive behavior that Daniel has taken his time to point out.


I was defending accusations that daniel made agasint me. Should I just
grab
my ankles and take it from him?
I'd personally like to stop having to waste my time defending our
company


Mmm.. again.. your a president... that's your job... accept it or get a
new
one.
against inaccurate knowingly false malicious accusations about our
product
and inaccurate vague assumptions that and statements that are libelous
in
nature and directly harm us financially.


How false they are. I don't know. But if people are saying they used
your
product, and it didn't work, thats not exactly false. That article
which
you refer to has comments posted by users stating the bias of the article
as
well as the fact your software didn't work. Cmon man? This many people
are
wrong?
It would be nice to be able to keep
these discussions technical in nature with an even tone but I've found

that
aside from responding to posts asking their authors to back up their
false
and derogatory statements, my only alternative will be to pursue legal
resources to recover damages made to our company and it's reputation.


You go for that... Because *that* would be a good administrative
decision.
go sue a bunch of people, spend thousands in legal costs to get back....
what?

I applaud Daniel 100% for his actions here, and would like to see more

MVP's
become more vocal in moderating these forums. I also think that these
technical newsgroups should be restricted to not accept anonymous or

spoofed
messages or at mininum, flag them as not credible posts.


hmmm... well, I think you and Vortex need to keep reading up on "How
things
work". After all... thats what news groups are.. anonymous messages...

While your at it, why don't you rewrite the SMTP protocal along with NNTP
so
it works how you want it to... After all, everyone else thinks you did a
bang up job on your Decompiler/Obfusicator

Jonathan
"CJ Taylor" <[cege] at [tavayn] dit commmmm> wrote in message
news:er*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
>> Out of curiosity, if I had posted my original reply *without* the mvp
>> marker, would you all have been as assinine?
>>
>
> Your comment is assinine. If you didn't have the MVP title, would I

have
> made any comments regarding it? No. But you are and you did post
> with
> it.
>
> The MVP comments are regarding MVP's coming in and trying to be big
> brother
> to everyone and tell us how to act, speak, and think. You can use
> your
> *lazy* tactics
> to scan the groups and see that.
>
>> I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several
>> mvp's
> who
>> don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass

it
> off
>> as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the

label
>> tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.
>>
>> Being an MVP can be binding. I would have certainly berated the three

of
>> you, MVP or not, however by being one the results are just fussing

about
> the
>> title and an utter disregard for the lot of you acting like children.
>>
>
> Wow. Your thoughts are just everywhere on this one. Being an MVP can

be
> binding, yet you would have berated us MVP or not. So is that the

binding
> part of the MVP? What's holding you back?
>
> So your saying you don't get the repect your deserve as an MVP? And
> because
> of that you keep your MVP title away... *sometimes*. What determines
> when
> to use it and when not to? Is this like a race card?
>
> if you don't want to be an MVP, don't be one. Your not being paid
> after
> all. I don't care if I ever become an MVP or not, especially if it

means
> I
> have to be careful not to hurt anyone's feelings. I come on here to
> get/give advice, not to achieve some flashy title to make myself feel
> good.
>
>> This thread is stupid, I'll leave it at that.
>
> Because you said it was? If you read the thread you would notice we
> are
> all
> agreeing with that. However, the OP pursued the conversation
> insisiting
> that Microsoft withheld information. After many of us (myself
> included)
> explained we already knew.
>
>>The consistent harrassment of
>> someone on the forum is disappointing, and should *never* have been
> started.
>
> What harrasement? The fact we had to tell the OP over and over that
> he
> was
> wrong and WHY he was wrong? I don't see that as harrassment. I don't
> think
> many others do either.
>
>> However, if you want to start a flame war, or participate in one,

expect
> to
>> be treated badly as a result.
>>
>
> Where do you see the flame war? The point was, he was wrong. And as

for
> Jonathan, people in here debunked his own claims he made about his
> decompiler/obfuscator. Are we not to do that? Just take whatever

anyone
> says about there software as truth?
>
> So your going to treat me badly now? A little hypocritcal I would
> say.
>
>> Also, for the record, MVP's have no capacity to moderate these
>> newsgroups.
>> Moderation of newsgroups is nearly impossible to begin with, but the
>> microsoft news server is administered and maintained by someone
>> within
>> microsoft.
>>
>
> I didn't say MVP's did. I said you act like you are moderators...read
> more
> carefully.
>
>> If you dig through blogs.msdn.com, someone there is the admin(or part

of
> the
>> team), I just forget who.
>>
>>> > BTW,
>> >
>> > I made one off color remark. If you look through my posts I am

either
>> > talking to other people, or attempting to explain that we all knew

and
>> > compare it to something like RSA.
>> >
>> > So the next time you decide to whip out your MVP lapel pin and ID

badge
>> > make
>> > sure your clear on how many off color comments I make.
>>
>> Perhaps I jumped to your name a bit, still, you certainly didn't make
> *ONE*
>> off color comment, I was able to find two by being lazy and using
>> what
>> was
>> still visible in my reader window.
>>
>>
>
> 2 huh. Well, must have missed on. Among all the other comments I
> made
> trying to explain the point.. Well, judge me however you want. Maybe

one
> day this news group will be exactly the way *you* want it...
>
>
>
>



Nov 16 '05 #144

P: n/a
Learn to read you ignomious buffoon.
Mmm.. show me one post that I insult you directly... And what the hell is
ignomious? I'll admit, I looked it up... hmmm websters dictionary doesn't
have a definition for that, nor anything close. Where you trying to say
ignoramus?

What I am saying, although I doubt
you'll understand this any better than anything else you've replied to on
this thread, is that because I *AM* an MVP, you are acting like a crabby
little peasent who's been stepped on by some Chaldean god.
Thus, the bind.
Again... I didn't start the MVP discussion, Nak [one of them] did. I simply
agreed. As for understand anything else? What else is there to understand,
your thoughts meander like a lost child in the woods...I'm well aware you're
an MVP as you have stated so many times. Were peasents crabby in Babylon
when stepped on by mythic figures? I don't know... I still don't see how
this creates a bind. Or for that matter, how your "bound" by it, since
after all, your first words were to call me a buffoon. Way to hold back.
Any comment I make is usually automatically either instantly accepted or
instantly rejected based on title alone.
It's a comment.. how can it be rejected or accepted? I don't see that
happen with other MVP's.. I don't judge your response if your an MVP or
not. Nor have I yet, or else I would have made more comments about it.
You seem to want to rely on the MVP card. I let that go awhile ago, you
just keep bringing it up over and over..
You've certainly shown that here. I
suppose you could call it a race card, but it is certainly not one I play.
All discrimination is your's alone. I do not hide my MVP status from anyone on appropriate forums.
You JUST SAID YOU DO! So which is it? Man, I can understand where W. is
coming from now.
I try to kep the mvp label *out* of what I do, and I know several mvp's
who
don't mark themselves as one because, although everyone try's to pass it
off
as unimportant, the level of disrespect you can get from having the label
tends to equal the level of respect it returns. Its annoying.
Your arrogant behavior, your posturing, your disregard for courtesy all seem to stem from my title. So, the conclusion I draw is that, by me being an
MVP, you don't feel my particular opinoin has any merit.
My behavior was arrogant long before you jumped into the conversation. You
just decided to slide on in here and start talking about bad behavior and
with this little gem:
While I appreciate that you are rather fervent about this, you are reallystarting to push the point here. Up to this point I have seen no behaviourby Jungle Creatures outside of supporting their product(and suggesting itwhen people ask about decompilers).
Last I checked, this forum was for Microsoft .NET, not promotions. So
earlier you agreed with this comment, that is a forum for supporitng the
framework.. I don't see where thats a forum for supporting Jungle Creatures
Product.

No one asked about decompilers... the OP starts off with a web link to
jungle creatures, and tries to give many of us advice on how Microsoft is
hosing is... There was no *asking*. There was just telling...

You have any more fun *facts* you want to support your weak a$$ argument
with? Oh, and I use the term weak a$$ because your an MVP, not because you
can't carry on a debate.
You three were
being, and some of you continue to be, I might add, little children running around ranting and raving about things you either don't understand or plain don't care enough about to apply any knowledge you actually have.
Don't understand??????? I think that was the whole point of my argument!
Terry can back that up. We were discussing what was acceptable risk, which
is the whole reason behind obfusicators in the first place. Same with
Encryption. Which is why I brought up RSA first! Did you even READ the
thread? If that isn't application of knowledge towards a subject then I've
been doing something wrong.

My knowledge was knowing that it could be decompiled, I stated that. I
stated why. i stated other examples of other languages that ran into the
same thing. I stated other subjects and used them to compare so the author
could understand. And I am fully prepared to back that up.

I posted :No.. it has nothing to do with being more careful. But you think you've
come across this amazing revalation that none of us knew about. Microsoft told us of the "security concerns" of reverse engineering with
.NET all the way back in Beta 2 days... Sun did the same thing with Java. And many many more companies that developed compilers. Don't make such a big deal about it. If you continue to read about .NET
you'll learn there are many tools. Don't forget, nothing will every protecteverything 100%, that's just how life is.
------------

Us means who? You and who else? Microsoft did not told me about that...

And I have to insist, why doesn't the CLS compiler work the same way as
the old C or ASM (machine language using mnemonics) compiler: Exported
Symbols are visible, non Exported Symbols are not accessible???
Why does an .exe file contain ALL original Symbols?????
Sun did the same thing with Java.

And many many more companies that developed compilers.

Don't make such a big deal about it. If you continue to read about .NET
you'll learn there are many tools. Don't forget, nothing will every protect everything 100%, that's just how life is.
How much should I spend in addons to be able to produce a comercial
software?
And the enums can't be changed!!!
------
This was ignored! And compared to a C / ASM complier! Which if you knew
anything about the language, ESPECIALLY if you are about to argue and
attempt to convince people of the dissassembly of the language, that you
would KNOW better than to compare it to C or Assembly... There isn't a
person in this forum today that is knowledgeable about languages and would
attempt to make the comparison. And you know that.

Why aren't they the same??? FOR THAT VERY REASON. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.
And we can go a lot further than that and talk till we are blue in the face
about the differences between C/ ASM/ .NET and the reasons for those
differences..

That's a senior f**kin' thesis right there...

And the OP CONTINUES to ignore it... Wants to debate. I'm feelin' a little
awnry, so I step into the ring as did many others including Nak and Brian
and whoever else. Because this just seems to be another wannabe troll and
it's a slow day at the office. Amusement? Sure a little, but if he's
really serious about it, I want him to convince me... So I'm going to state
my facts. It's not I'm not listening, but there isn't a lot of evidence to
support it. I could say that "salt is the elixer of life". What are you
going to do? Say "oh.. well yes, I suppose so." hell no, your going to
question me, as I'm going to question him.

And then you enter...

So don't tell me... I don't understand...

That is
all there is too it. I don't particularly care if no one else shares my
opinion, but as far as I can tell thats how things have gone. Your behavior since my original post certainly hasn't suggested otherwise to me.

ha... see, you generalize. You think that I target this at you because
you're an MVP. No, I just don't agree with you as a person. You could be
the president of the United States and I would still disagree with you.
I will treat you badly, for the moment anyway. You certainly don't deserve
anything better.
So title doesn't dictate behavior is that right? Hmmm... guess it's not all
that "binding"
You're participation in this thread, to a lesser degree
than others granted, has been primarily distasteful, if not downright
disgusting.

ahh.. yes...

Nov 16 '05 #145

P: n/a
Vortex Soft <No****@NoSpam.Net> wrote in news:#7OZ2ihmEHA.324
@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
Every thing that can be encrypted can also be decrypted.


How about a 1-way hash like MD5 or SHA1?

Nov 16 '05 #146

P: n/a
> Learn to read you ignomious buffoon. What I am saying, although I doubt
you'll understand this any better than anything else you've replied to on
this thread, is that because I *AM* an MVP, you are acting like a crabby
little peasent who's been stepped on by some Chaldean god.


I just wanted to say, regardless of context, this was a splendid and
magnificent wording. Bravo! :-)

Steve
Nov 16 '05 #147

P: n/a

"CJ Taylor" <cege at the123 dont use this part till here tavayn dot com>
wrote in message news:et**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Learn to read you ignomious buffoon.


Mmm.. show me one post that I insult you directly... And what the hell
is
ignomious? I'll admit, I looked it up... hmmm websters dictionary doesn't
have a definition for that, nor anything close. Where you trying to say
ignoramus?

Ignominious, actually, I tend to mispronounce, and as a result misspell,
that particular word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...&q=ignominious

Nov 16 '05 #148

P: n/a
Nak
Jesus H christ. Look if anyone has to admit to being out of order, I shall,
I appologise for saying your code was dirty. This was meant as an
assumption not a declaration of an observation. But anyway, whether you
belive me or not, the statement was meant to antagonize, I put my hand up
and appologise. I do on the other hand think it was exceedingly sly to post
my personal email address in this group, I would have given it freely if
anyone asked for it, but in a format that could not be read by a crawler.

Anyway, trust me, I have never decompiled anything, other than looking at my
own source in Reflector. I get a kick out of programming my own solutions,
not copying others. Anyway, I appologise for the remark I made, I'm sure
your product is fine, but still something I do not have the need for.

Anyway, I'm off of this, it's gone too far for me.

Nick.
Nov 16 '05 #149

P: n/a
Nak
Steve,

Now that just doesn't make sense. So many people saying stop arguing, you
all sound like children, and then you throw that one in. What is the point?
Let it all die down, the argument has gone off on a tangent. I have
admitted that I only reacted due to what I deemed as an advert, nothing
else, then I mistakingly made a poor assumption towards someone else's code,
which wasn't big and wasn't clever. And again I apologise, but what we
don't need is a seagull sitting on the sidelines cheering anyone on, because
it only stokes the fire.

Nick.

"Steve McLellan" <sjm.NOSPAM AT fixerlabs DOT com> wrote in message
news:e7**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Learn to read you ignomious buffoon. What I am saying, although I doubt
you'll understand this any better than anything else you've replied to on
this thread, is that because I *AM* an MVP, you are acting like a crabby
little peasent who's been stepped on by some Chaldean god.


I just wanted to say, regardless of context, this was a splendid and
magnificent wording. Bravo! :-)

Steve

Nov 16 '05 #150

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