How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

[Bret Pehrson]

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

> Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project

planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.
Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.
J wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:36:06 -0800, Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

Thanks for your comments. Finally some useful information in this
ever-deviating thread.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.
This is the information I'm looking for, based on your actual experiences.
Thank you for taking the time to read my original post.

Carl Fenley wrote:
I actually have a small bit of experience with this. I have worked for two
corporations that outsourced some of their development work to their own
offices in New Delhi, India.

In both cases, the quality of work from the Indian employees was fine. In
both cases, the cost of compensation packages to the Indian employees was
considerably less than their US resident counterparts. In both cases, there
was higher-than-expected turnover rate amongst the Indian developers as they
were snatched up at higher wages by a continuing influx of competing firms.

Also, I watched a manager at one of the companies struggle with managing the
work of someone she would never meet. I was not directly involved in her
project, but the general consensus was the Indian employee was incredibly
under-utilized. She just wasn't prepared to manage that kind of work or
that kind of employee, even within the framework of the same corporation.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

- carl

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops

(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm

looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting

screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,

so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read. I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a controversial question
and see how they answer.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Martin Maat]

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me. Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.
And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers.
They don't read.

Hehe. You may have a point there. On the other hand, this is an open forum
and we basically discuss what seems interesting, not necessarily only what
the original poster asked for.

The general idea about outsoucing to India in my area is that you get
axactly what you asked for, hence the need to spec well. If you know that
well what you want and it may be the thing for you.

Tell us next year how it turned out, okay? :-)

Martin.

[beagle]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.

[beagle]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.

Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.

Ah, the famous last words of incompetent management everywhere.

[Martin Maat]

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/ offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.

First we're not just here to answer your question and then be quite until
you come back with another question. Elaborating and touching other
questions does not necessarily mean we did not understand or could not be
bothered. The trait to provide what is asked is a two-edged sword., it can
be a good thing but it can also be a terrible thing. It means that if you
overlooked something and no one tells you or takes the trouble to work
around your mistake you will end up with very expensive junk. It is not
right for a developer to just do things different without any feedback but
it is equally bad to blindly follow specs. Most systems would simply be
impossible to build or would just not work if specs were followed
scrupulously. So there is bound to be some diversion fron the original specs
and it is your job as the producer to be on top of that proces to make sure
the inevitable diversions will not harm the solution.

Judging by the frustrated tone of your message you seem to have trouble
communicating with the people you hire. Moreover, you don't seem to consider
it necessary interact (after all, you gave them specs) , you don't want to
deal with them. When the specs are ready, you want to toss 'm over and the
project will be done as far as you're concerned. Now that is asking for
trouble. But hey, perhaps tossing the specs to the other side of the globe
will just fix it.

Martin.

[beagle]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read.
What a lovely sweeping generalization. It does a lot to bolster your
case.

Idiot.
I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.
And despite your personal perfection, those nasty contractors keep
messing it up for you! Poor baby.
If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.

Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them instead of
yourself again.

Idiot.

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

You can kinda sorta tell this outsourcing is a sore spot right?
tehehe

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Thanks for your comments. Finally some useful information in this
ever-deviating thread.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.
This is the information I'm looking for, based on your actual experiences.
Thank you for taking the time to read my original post.

Carl Fenley wrote:

I actually have a small bit of experience with this. I have worked for two corporations that outsourced some of their development work to their own
offices in New Delhi, India.

In both cases, the quality of work from the Indian employees was fine. In both cases, the cost of compensation packages to the Indian employees was considerably less than their US resident counterparts. In both cases, there was higher-than-expected turnover rate amongst the Indian developers as they were snatched up at higher wages by a continuing influx of competing firms.
Also, I watched a manager at one of the companies struggle with managing the work of someone she would never meet. I was not directly involved in her project, but the general consensus was the Indian employee was incredibly under-utilized. She just wasn't prepared to manage that kind of work or
that kind of employee, even within the framework of the same corporation.
My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

- carl

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops

(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and

therefore I'm

looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting

screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps

in C++/C#,

so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

My take on the whole issue?

You can't stop a train. Outsourcing is coming. Jump in, or get out the way.
Economics will eventually win. The price is unbeatable, there are a few
kinks to be worked out here and there which eventually will be worked out.
But that's what they are, kinks not showstoppers.

Eventually, the price of developing software will fall out of the sky and so
will programmer salaries. It's happening already. It's about competition,
and we aren't reacting to competition nicely by name calling.

Most IT companies will employ a small staff of developers for maintenance,
the main project will be outsourced. I've seen the future. Time to get into
consulting.
--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Martin Maat" <du***@somewhere.nl> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my

original

question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my

query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers.
They don't read.

Hehe. You may have a point there. On the other hand, this is an open forum
and we basically discuss what seems interesting, not necessarily only what
the original poster asked for.

The general idea about outsoucing to India in my area is that you get
axactly what you asked for, hence the need to spec well. If you know that
well what you want and it may be the thing for you.

Tell us next year how it turned out, okay? :-)

Martin.

[Craig]

Well, we were just joking about this yesterday and wrote this stored proc...
I'll bet someone here finds this entertaining:

CREATE PROC REPLACE_CODER

@USERName varchar(50)

AS

DECLARE @ForeignDeveloper int

SELECT TOP 1 @ForeignDeveloper=ForeignDevelopers.ID FROM ForeignDevelopers

WHERE English IS NULL

ORDER BY LEN(ForeignDevelopers.LName) DESC,
fPronouncability(ForeignDevelopers.Fname) ASC,

UPDATE Employees SET Employee=@ForeignDeveloper, Salary=Salary/4 WHERE
Employee=@username

GO

I personally refuse to put up with 2nd rate support on any products because
of outsourcing. If I can't understand the person on the phone when I call
for support, the product goes back to the store - simple. Since YOU'RE
going to be the one on the phone with them, I sure hope you get what you
deserve. You think you have communication problems with US contractors now?
....laugh...

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.
And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't read. I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec, and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a controversial question and see how they answer.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those who responded on topic.

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Craig]

Well, you have to expect when asking an off-topic question, that you'll get
off-topic responses :)

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

William Ryan eMVP wrote:

You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp). Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him, I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive, doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when, and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does happen). Also, check the references....if you see only companies that you can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops

(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and

therefore I'm

looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting

screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps

in C++/C#,

so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[beagle]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Alvin Bruney [MVP] <vapor at steaming post office> wrote:

You can't stop a train. Outsourcing is coming. Jump in, or get out the way.
Economics will eventually win. The price is unbeatable, there are a few
kinks to be worked out here and there which eventually will be worked out.
But that's what they are, kinks not showstoppers.
I must respectfully disagree. It's not nearly so black and white.

In America, during the 90's, the demand for software developers was
skyrocketing. Lots of unqualified (translation: bad) programmers got
into the field for the money.

Fast forward to the 2000's. The same thing is happening in India that
happened in America in the 90's, except 10x worse. The quality of
talent that Indian universities are pumping out is very low, because
they're trying to pump out too many bodies too quickly to meet demand.

Hopefully, must people are aware that 90% of software development is
maintenance. Maintaining a poorly constructed system is very expensive.
Doing a poor job maintaining a well written system turns it into a poor
system. The majority of these outsourced projects will generate a low
quality project that is cheap up front but will cost big bucks during
the much longer and more expensive maintenance cycle that most software
projects go through.

There is a dirty little secret at American companies these days, and
that dirty little secret is failed outsourcing efforts. Outsourcing
projects are not nearly as successful as they seem, because those
lemming-like executives who jump on the outsourcing bandwagon aren't
exactly motivated to admit to the world when their outsourcing scheme
failed.

When you outsource, there are a lot of hidden expenses, too. The
"six Indians for one American" often quoted is completely misleading.
Eventually, the price of developing software will fall out of the sky and so
will programmer salaries. It's happening already. It's about competition,
and we aren't reacting to competition nicely by name calling.
The more likely long-term outcome is that, eventually, India will have
a large base of good programmers, instead of the large base of bad
programmers, and small base of good programmers, it has now.

And eventually, Indian companies will start sprouting up that compete
against the very American companies that essentially trained them on
the job in the first place. Except the Indian companies can benefit
from lower wages from the very top to the very bottom, so the American
companies will be at a competitive disadvantage.

Basically, what we are seeing is, American companies giving themselves
a short-term advantage, in exchange for guaranteed long-term extinction.
Then again, this is no surprise; American executives are remarkably
short-sighted. You would be too, if you were so grossly overpaid as
they are. They don't NEED to worry beyond a handful of years. That's
why they can rarely see more than 4 quarters out. They don't keep their
stock options that long anyway.
Most IT companies will employ a small staff of developers for maintenance,
the main project will be outsourced. I've seen the future. Time to get into
consulting.

It's time to get into "project recovery". There will be an obscene
amount of failed outsourced projects that'll need to be fixed.

[William Ryan eMVP]

I wouldn't hold my breath...
<be****@dogs-like-spam.com> wrote in message
news:40*********************@newsreader.visi.com.. .

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson

<br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.

[Bret Pehrson]

You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.

Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations, merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read.

What a lovely sweeping generalization. It does a lot to bolster your
case.

Idiot.

I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

And despite your personal perfection, those nasty contractors keep
messing it up for you! Poor baby.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.

Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them instead of
yourself again.

Idiot.

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Martin Maat]

<be****@dogs-like-spam.com> wrote in message
news:40*********************@newsreader.visi.com.. .

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Alvin Bruney [MVP] <vapor at steaming post office> wrote:
There is a dirty little secret at American companies these days, and
that dirty little secret is failed outsourcing efforts. Outsourcing
projects are not nearly as successful as they seem, because those
lemming-like executives who jump on the outsourcing bandwagon aren't
exactly motivated to admit to the world when their outsourcing scheme
failed.
I know an even darker little secret: software projects in general are
typically not very successful, regardless whether any of it was outsourced
or not.
American executives are remarkably short-sighted.
You would be too, if you were so grossly overpaid
as they are. They don't NEED to worry beyond a
handful of years. That's why they can rarely see more
than 4 quarters out. They don't keep their stock
options that long anyway.

No that's not it. The short sightedness is usually a result of project
oriented organization. The project manager is responsible for the project,
not the product. The project manager gets his orders and mandate from the
men upstairs so the project will be more important than the product.
Outsourcing is just another sign that project organisations are hip.
Projects are great from a financial point of view, they make it easy to
measure what goes in and what goes out. That is what the men upstairs want
to know because they are no longer the owners, they have to write that
speech to the shareholders that will be waiting to hear about the successes
of the latest quarter.

This type of business organization, that has grown in importance over the
last couple of decades, doesn't mix very well with the software development
processes that typically is hard to predict because most of the work will be
new to most of the participants. It is never like "laying bricks the way you
have been laying bricks for years", it is not predictable. Yet the service
provider will have to promise he will deliver by this date or he will not
get the business.

Companies can no longer affort to organize themselves for long term goals
because "just wait and see, we will do our best" is no longer accepted by
investors. They want it all and they want it now and this results in either
(if all goes well) indeed getting it all or (if a few setbacks are
encountered) getting nothing at all. Business has become gambling and every
gambler ends up a loser, it's only a matter of time.

How's that for a cheer up lads?

Martin.

[Martin Maat]

<be****@dogs-like-spam.com> wrote in message
news:40*********************@newsreader.visi.com.. .

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't read.

Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.
Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them
instead of yourself again.

:-) This was about my sentiment too. It's interesting though, this is
precisely what happens everyday within companies. There is a gap between
entrepeneurs/management and software developers. The entrepeneur has an idea
that makes him happy and he is not going to let some nerd spoil it for him
by laying out the difficulties and uncertainties. So he will continu asking
people if they can make his idea happen until he finds someone that says
"Sure, can do! Consider it done!" This person is typically either completely
ignorant or thinking "once we've got this train moving there's no getting
off for him anyway so let's roll!".

We work in a wonderful industry.

Martin.

[Martin Maat]

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you, contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter -- SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.
Let me step in here before someone gets hurt :-).

Technically you may not have been offensive but I can understand the
agressive response because you're "questions" were quite insulting to
software developers in general. It's no wonder programmers fuck up your
projects all the time, I know I would :-).

Let's go back (this is going to be fun).
Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers,
and so far have lost a lot of my money on babysitting...
"They're an inmature lot those native programmers, they can't do anything
right. The moment I turm my back they screw up bigtime".
Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local
and non-local). My specs are *very* well defined beforehand.
"I mean really, I spelled it out for them! Absolute morons."
FINALLY a valid reply to my post!
"I was getting so tired."
I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.
"I was so clear on what I wanted to hear and yet they start babbling about
all sorts of things as if they don't understand that their sole purpose of
being is answering my questions." Now it turns out that 98% of the lot
doesn't have any sense of what they are here for. I utterly look down on you
lot. Oh, by the way, does any of you have some good advise for me?"
I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time
and on budget. Period.
"No buts! Just do what I say... I don't wanna hear it!"
Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.

"This is it, not debatable. Don't care what your problem may be. No, don't
wanna hear it. NO! NO! NO!" Here's your money, don't call."
Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.

"The nerve of those people. Chatting about issues I am not interested in...
Can you believe it?"
Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a
controversial question and see how they answer

"I get it now, the programmers community is like a fish tank. It can
actually be fun to watch once you understand just how stupid they are."
This is what they hear when you talk. Do you still want to deal with
software developers?

Martin.

[Bret Pehrson]

> This is what they hear when you talk. Do you still want to deal with

software developers?
What "they" hear -- I'm one of them -- I'm a software developer, not some
high-priced executive looking to cut the bottom line.
Martin Maat wrote:
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking

you,

contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that

matter --

SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

Let me step in here before someone gets hurt :-).

Technically you may not have been offensive but I can understand the
agressive response because you're "questions" were quite insulting to
software developers in general. It's no wonder programmers fuck up your
projects all the time, I know I would :-).

Let's go back (this is going to be fun).

Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers,
and so far have lost a lot of my money on babysitting...

"They're an inmature lot those native programmers, they can't do anything
right. The moment I turm my back they screw up bigtime".

Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local
and non-local). My specs are *very* well defined beforehand.

"I mean really, I spelled it out for them! Absolute morons."

FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

"I was getting so tired."

I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.

"I was so clear on what I wanted to hear and yet they start babbling about
all sorts of things as if they don't understand that their sole purpose of
being is answering my questions." Now it turns out that 98% of the lot
doesn't have any sense of what they are here for. I utterly look down on you
lot. Oh, by the way, does any of you have some good advise for me?"

I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time
and on budget. Period.

"No buts! Just do what I say... I don't wanna hear it!"

Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed,

regardless.

"This is it, not debatable. Don't care what your problem may be. No, don't
wanna hear it. NO! NO! NO!" Here's your money, don't call."

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my

original

question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my

query.

"The nerve of those people. Chatting about issues I am not interested in...
Can you believe it?"

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a
controversial question and see how they answer

"I get it now, the programmers community is like a fish tank. It can
actually be fun to watch once you understand just how stupid they are."

This is what they hear when you talk. Do you still want to deal with
software developers?

Martin.

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[beagle]

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.
Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.

You're the troll here, Bret. You complain about *multiple* domestic
contractors not being able to create a product based on your specs.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas? Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?
Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.

Your reasons for considering offshore programming are pathetic. You're
an idiot. Do you have any employees named Dilbert?

[beagle]

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations, merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

It's a hot button topic for me. I know too many friends and collegues
who are losing their houses over this offshoring "megatrend". The
executive team keeps getting their millions, the programmers who are
lucky enough to keep their jobs have to integrate the disaster that
is "developed" offshore, and the folks that lose their job can give up
any hope they'll be able to afford to send their kids to college.

[Bret Pehrson]

> Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better

hide in your bedroom.
On the contrary, I'm trying to accept the reality of offshore programming
resources, even though it is in direct competition to me as a contract
programmer.
Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.
I haven't blamed anyone -- I accept full responsibility for the results of any
product development, both done by me, or by subcontractors.

I will (continue) to evaluate my ability to communicate and effectively create
specifications, however that isn't what I originally requested in this thread.
I'm simply looking for comments and suggestions regarding offshore programming
shops.
And your solution is to ship the work overseas?
My solution is NOT to ship the work overseas, but to explore alternatives,
regardless of my performance, or the performance of domestic (or any other)
contract programmers.
Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?
I'm not trying to convince anyone of my idiocy, or lack thereof.

Thanks for your comments.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:
Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.

Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.

You're the troll here, Bret. You complain about *multiple* domestic
contractors not being able to create a product based on your specs.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas? Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?

Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.

Your reasons for considering offshore programming are pathetic. You're
an idiot. Do you have any employees named Dilbert?

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

Finally.

I appreciate your honesty -- yes, this has been a very hot topic for me as
well.

I'm a contract programmer and run a small contract programming business, not an
executive, and no, I don't make millions (not even close).

More and more of my large corporate clients are opting for offshore resources,
or H1B visa holders. I'm definitely feeling the squeeze, regardless of the
quality of my code or how well I keep to estimates or budgets. When the CFO
axe comes a swinging, it only seems to consider the bottom line.

So, in order to stay viable, I'm evaluating other options. Not that it was the
intent of my original post to bash US programmers, but I'm just trying to get a
realistic feel for offshore programming shops. The media can't be trusted on
this topic, so I was looking for some honest actual experiences.

I'll post one follow-up to my original post that will summarize what I've
found, and then I'm done w/ this topic.

be****@dogs-like-spam.com wrote:

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations, merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

It's a hot button topic for me. I know too many friends and collegues
who are losing their houses over this offshoring "megatrend". The
executive team keeps getting their millions, the programmers who are
lucky enough to keep their jobs have to integrate the disaster that
is "developed" offshore, and the folks that lose their job can give up
any hope they'll be able to afford to send their kids to college.

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Bret Pehrson]

Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were e-mailed, so
I'll just summarize w/o names:

- Cheap offshore programming is mostly a myth. It may look cheap on paper,
but the net result may be just as much as domestic programming.

- The project may be completed as spec'd, but the code itself may be 'a mess'
or otherwise unmaintainable. Others reported that the code was 'fine'.

- It was suggested to go through a domestic agency, instead of dealing
directly w/ the offshore shop. This introduces an additional level for
potential indirection as well as increased cost.

- You *must* have your requirements, specs, and related details crystal clear
beforehand, or else you will get something that is probably not what you want.

- Communication (because of language and/or time barriers) can be a minor to
serious impediment.

- It can be difficult to manage offsite programmers (domestic or overseas).

- There may be a high turn-over rate of programmers in the offshore shop,
leading to more potential problems.

- You must have realistic and definite milestones, and ensure that they are
met according to your (specified) expectation.

- Offshore programming is best for large, well defined projects (someone gave
me an example of porting an existing app from one platform to another), and is
very bad for small and/or changing spec projects.

- You must plan on daily (constant) communication with the offshore
resources. Failure to do so can quickly lead to interpretive deviations from
the spec or intended goal.

Thanks to all who responded.

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Roy Fine]

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:uc**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness,

YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???

[ozbear]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:00 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP"
<do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.

<snip>

The callousness you show is underserving of rebuttal.

Oz

[Mihajlo Cvetanovic]

Bret Pehrson wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Have you considered Central and East European market? It's somewhat
costly but a lot trained/experienced than Indian.

And we follow formal methods more. Better working hours and human rights
unlike the US of A.SS

"Mihajlo Cvetanovic" <ma*@RnEeMtOsVeEt.co.yu> wrote in message
news:40**************@RnEeMtOsVeEt.co.yu...

Bret Pehrson wrote:

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Have you considered Central and East European market? It's somewhat
costly but a lot trained/experienced than Indian.

[William Ryan eMVP]

"Roy Fine" <rl****@twt.obfuscate.net> wrote in message
news:up**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

"William Ryan eMVP" <do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:uc**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness,

YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???

I should have been more clear, mixing those two together would be quite,
yucky.

[andrew lowe]

<.> wrote in message news:Ot**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

And we follow formal methods more. Better working hours and human rights
unlike the US of A.SS

I doubt that formal methods are followed better, India has by far the
highest number of CMM Level 5 companies.

http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/high-matu...ighMatOrgs.pdf

andrew

[Mihajlo Cvetanovic]

andrew lowe wrote:

I doubt that formal methods are followed better, India has by far the
highest number of CMM Level 5 companies.
Without any proof to support my statement I still believe that CEE
(Central and East European) companies have in wit what they lack in
form (I'm probably a bit biased here).
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/high-matu...ighMatOrgs.pdf

This link is some 1.5 years old... Now, what's CMM level good for?

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

ouch

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40332cbb.553358968@news-server...

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:00 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP"
<do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.

<snip>

The callousness you show is underserving of rebuttal.

Oz

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

ouch

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40332cbb.553358968@news-server...

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:15:00 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP"
<do********@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.

<snip>

The callousness you show is underserving of rebuttal.

Oz

[Ravichandran J.V.]

Hi,

You have got mail!!

with regards,
J.V.Ravichandran
- http://www.geocities.com/
jvravichandran
- http://www.411asp.net/func/search?
qry=Ravichandran+J.V.&cob=aspnetpro
- http://www.southasianoutlook.com
- http://www.MSDNAA.Net
- http://www.csharphelp.com
- http://www.poetry.com/Publications/
display.asp?ID=P3966388&BN=999&PN=2
- Or, just search on "J.V.Ravichandran"
at http://www.Google.com

*** Sent via Developersdex http://www.developersdex.com ***
Don't just participate in USENET...get rewarded for it!

[Eric B]

Bret Pehrson wrote:

Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were
e-mailed, so I'll just summarize w/o names:

[...]

Go on with offshore development projects, and your country will soon be a
desert with noone to buy your products.
Have you thought about that ?
I used to think there were laws in the US to prevent this kind of suicidal
business... ?

Anyway, that's not the place for such debates.

EB

[Bob Boran]

Not only that, but every company I have talked to that offshored a project
has been completely dissapponted with the results. No (or very poor)
communication, language barriers, time zone differences, quality of product,
change management... the list goes on and on. I would rather see H1 visas
then offshoring.

"Eric B" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:e6**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

Bret Pehrson wrote:

Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were
e-mailed, so I'll just summarize w/o names:

[...]

Go on with offshore development projects, and your country will soon be a
desert with noone to buy your products.
Have you thought about that ?
I used to think there were laws in the US to prevent this kind of suicidal
business... ?

Anyway, that's not the place for such debates.

EB

[John Hughes]

Having been through a project like this I can relate to these issues. Don't
do it unless you are prepared for a lot of difficult project management.

"Bob Boran" <mc*******@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:%2*****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Not only that, but every company I have talked to that offshored a project
has been completely dissapponted with the results. No (or very poor)
communication, language barriers, time zone differences, quality of product, change management... the list goes on and on. I would rather see H1 visas
then offshoring.

"Eric B" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:e6**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

Bret Pehrson wrote:

Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were
e-mailed, so I'll just summarize w/o names:

[...]

Go on with offshore development projects, and your country will soon be a desert with noone to buy your products.
Have you thought about that ?
I used to think there were laws in the US to prevent this kind of suicidal business... ?

Anyway, that's not the place for such debates.

EB

[Corneliu]

Why don't you try Eastern Europe? eg: Romania ...

They might not be as cheap as India, but they are surely
more reliable and quality is far better than India.
Plus much better trained ...

Corneliu.

[Tran Van Khoa]

Hi Bre

You can oursource to Vietnam, where there are many talented programmers with the lowest cost

[MYOBW]

Tran Van Khoa wrote:

Hi Bret

You can oursource to Vietnam, where there are many talented programmers with the lowest cost.

Yes! So "talented" in fact, they even respond to dead threads that
haven't seen activity in almost 4 months!