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How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

P: n/a
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #1
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90 Replies


P: n/a
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #2

P: n/a
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #3

P: n/a
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james
"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps
in
C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence
<<38952rglkwdsl>>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


Nov 15 '05 #4

P: n/a
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.
Nov 15 '05 #5

P: n/a
You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top
notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb
work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to
outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp).
Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him,
I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive,
doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's
not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are
setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do
is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the
hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that
you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when,
and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have
actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one
man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that
have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so
they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does
happen). Also, check the references....if you see only companies that you
can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and
remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to
charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #6

P: n/a
From the other comments, looks like these people are trying to protect their
jobs and career. :)

Rule of thumb, never ask a developer for suggestions that might threaten
their job.

LOL

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #7

P: n/a
Bret Pehrson wrote:
I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore
shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go
about this w/o getting screwed.

Yeh, right... Ask the people loosing their jobs to help you with this...
LOL!

DUH!!!

--
gabriel
Nov 15 '05 #8

P: n/a
You can't tell someone's work by price alone, there are a lot of prima donna
s out there that charge a lot..but I'll agree that if you get someone who
agrees to work for 'cheap' then either they will probably end up doing cheap
work, or kill you on cost overruns...or worse yet, have enough bugs that you
spend a fortune on support.
"Trevor" <tr****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,

don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for".

I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.

Nov 15 '05 #9

P: n/a
There are tons of good programmers in both countries and I don't think it's
fair to say that just because someone isn't in the same country or can't be
supervised constantly that they won't do good work. If you outsource here
in the states you won't have 'complete oversight' and to be honest, that who
would want 'complete oversight' . I think the goal is to hire true
professionals that you don't need to watch and can be counted on to reliably
produce what they agree to , when they agree to for the price they agree to.
Perhaps we live in different parts of the country, but hiring quality
developers, particlarly ones with .NET or Java experience has proven
difficult. They are there, but there's a lot more demand than supply. On
the other hand, there's no end to the number of guys who make ridiculous
claims on their resumes and think that because they have learned to create a
dynamic message with MessageBox.Show, it's cool to claim they are an
advanced .NET or Java developer. Or because they know SELECT * From
someTable that they are an Advanced Oracle or SQL Server developer.

I'd say on average, 1 in 40 people we've interviewed could do what they
claimed and we've interviewed much more than that...and while we're not
looking to outsource work, it can definitely get frustrating and I see why
many find it a viable alternative. To that end, I guess it really depends
on where you happen to be located.

Bill
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james
"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.

You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:
>
> This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.
>
> I'm considering farming some of my application development to
offshore shops
> (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and

therefore I'm
> looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
> screwed.
>
> My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in
C++/C#,
> so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.
>
> Anyone have any comments/suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Bret Pehrson
> mailto:br**@infowest.com
> NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>


Nov 15 '05 #10

P: n/a
WJ
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)


1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself and your
country as a whole ?
2. Contribution to the Tax Based system: All right! Indian programmers are
cheap, but do they contribute tax $ to your community here in the US, your
home ? When your highways go bad, will Indian fix them ? Or will you, as a
"cheap" business man, pay for it ? I doubt about it.
3. Keep in mind that India is cheap, true, but only for short term. Once
they get their feet wet and gain technical knowledge, they will not be cheap
anymore.

Think about longterm 1st.

John Webb
Nov 15 '05 #11

P: n/a
You are right, you cannot tell the quality of someone's work simply by what
they charge for their work.
But, it stands to reason that if you insist on looking at immediate cost
alone and not consider the long term, then the cheap inital cost gets lost
in the upkeep or cost over-runs that you mention.
I have no doubt that there are very compentent developers in India as well
as other countries. But, it seems to me that so many companies are
becoming"bottom line concious" that they fail to even consider looking for
other answers here in their own country.
I don't neccessarily believe in protectionism, but, at the same time, I feel
that American companies are
failing to consider the impact on our local economy and our own citizens
when they move employment to other countries simply to save money. Also,
they don't seem to take into consideration the fact that they can be
compromising the company's data and intellectual properity simply by giving
others in another country access to it's development and maintenance. At
least by having the development and upkeep done here, at their own
facilities or those of another American company, they have some control.
And with another company here in our country, they also have legal recourse
if and when problems arise. Which, may not be possible in places like India.
Sometimes, saving money in this way really does not save anything. And can
end up costing more than it saves.
james

"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:#F**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
You can't tell someone's work by price alone, there are a lot of prima donna s out there that charge a lot..but I'll agree that if you get someone who
agrees to work for 'cheap' then either they will probably end up doing cheap work, or kill you on cost overruns...or worse yet, have enough bugs that you spend a fortune on support.
"Trevor" <tr****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,

don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for".

I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


Nov 15 '05 #12

P: n/a
I really didn't mean to imply that programmers in Inda or any other country
were somehow inferior to programmers here. I just feel that too many
companies are taking the cheap way out to make a quick buck for the
stockholders and not considering the long term effects of moving development
to other countries. (as I explained in my other response to you)
Maybe, "complete oversight" was not the right choice of words. What I mean
is, simply put, if you deal with a company that is readily available to you
to do your application/database development, you have more control over the
results of that development. It is far easier to explain what you want done
to someone who speaks, reads & writes English as a first language as
opposed to someone that has learned it as a second language. I have run
into this problem myself with online tech. support from my ISP. Their Tech
Support staff is located in a Call Center in India. Ask them any question
that is even the least bit outside of their scripted question-response
guides and they fall apart. They use American sounding names : last one was
a Live Chat Help person: Glen J. as the questions went back and forth, it
became evident that this person did not speak English as their native
language. I finally asked and was told that they had only been speaking
English for a short time. I then asked where in India he was located and
his response was: he could not tell me that.
If simple Internet Service related issues create problems with them in
their understanding of the English language, what do you think will happen
with programmers in India that have the same issues of not understanding
English that well? I would hope that the companies there would employ
someone (or several someones) that understand English well enough to do the
work assigned to them.
I also have wondered how hard it would be for those "off Shore" programmers
to put a little backdoor
into a large application for a financial institution that had online access
for their users. It wouldn't be all that hard without some very close
supervision. Think of the damage that could be done by something like that.
A lot of bank accounts could get hit easily. It's bad enough that it can
happen here, it's even worse that it can happen outside our borders where we
have little recourse.
I really didn't mean to go into a long drawn out post, but, it just bothers
me a great deal to know that there are a lot of very good programmers in our
own country out of work and being put out of work
because companies in this country cannot find a way to keep those jobs here.
There are people that have taken pay cuts to keep their jobs. Just look at
American Airlines. A lot of their employees took a cut to keep the company
going. But, too many companies , instead of talking straight to their own
people, just do away with their jobs instead of trying to reach a solution
that helps the company and continues to provide a job for their employees.
james
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:#t*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
There are tons of good programmers in both countries and I don't think it's fair to say that just because someone isn't in the same country or can't be supervised constantly that they won't do good work. If you outsource here
in the states you won't have 'complete oversight' and to be honest, that who would want 'complete oversight' . I think the goal is to hire true
professionals that you don't need to watch and can be counted on to reliably produce what they agree to , when they agree to for the price they agree to. Perhaps we live in different parts of the country, but hiring quality
developers, particlarly ones with .NET or Java experience has proven
difficult. They are there, but there's a lot more demand than supply. On
the other hand, there's no end to the number of guys who make ridiculous
claims on their resumes and think that because they have learned to create a dynamic message with MessageBox.Show, it's cool to claim they are an
advanced .NET or Java developer. Or because they know SELECT * From
someTable that they are an Advanced Oracle or SQL Server developer.

I'd say on average, 1 in 40 people we've interviewed could do what they
claimed and we've interviewed much more than that...and while we're not
looking to outsource work, it can definitely get frustrating and I see why
many find it a viable alternative. To that end, I guess it really depends
on where you happen to be located.

Bill
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james
"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you, offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.

You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
> Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:
>
> Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)
>
> Bret Pehrson wrote:
> >
> > This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.
> >
> > I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
> > (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm
> > looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this
w/o getting
> > screwed.
> >
> > My current application development is primarily database-driven
apps in
C++/C#,
> > so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.
> >
> > Anyone have any comments/suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > --
> > Bret Pehrson
> > mailto:br**@infowest.com
> > NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
>
> --
> Bret Pehrson
> mailto:br**@infowest.com
> NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>



Nov 15 '05 #13

P: n/a
> 1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself and
your
country as a whole ?
If your talking IP rights issues, the same risk is run whether you outsource
to India or Indiana.
2. Contribution to the Tax Based system: All right! Indian programmers are
cheap, but do they contribute tax $ to your community here in the US, your
home ? When your highways go bad, will Indian fix them ? Or will you, as a
"cheap" business man, pay for it ? I doubt about it.
Do you ask all these same questions yourself when you as a CONSUMER
outsource? The same questions should be asked for those that shop at
wal-mart and purchase cheap made in China products.
3. Keep in mind that India is cheap, true, but only for short term. Once
they get their feet wet and gain technical knowledge, they will not be cheap anymore.


This is the one thing you are absolutely correct upon. Wages are already
rising fast, and the currency relative to the US dollar is sure to follow in
the medium-term. Companies outsourcing work to India strictly for cost
reasons are selling out long-term wise for short-term gain; however, many of
the more astute, larger compaines are NOT outsourcing solely because of
cost. They recognize that India and China are HUGE markets and are trying
to tap them early, regardless of long-term wage / currency fluctuations.
Nov 15 '05 #14

P: n/a
Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over and both
they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql

If you want cheap, I wont even dream about offering you my services.

--
Bob Powell [MVP]
C#, System.Drawing

Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ
http://www.bobpowell.net/gdiplus_faq.htm

Read my Blog at http://bobpowelldotnet.blogspot.com

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #15

P: n/a
WJ
"FDude" <fd***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself and your
country as a whole ?


If your talking IP rights issues, the same risk is run whether you

outsource to India or Indiana.


No. Security means at company and national levels for longterm processes.
You do not want to outsource high-tech works. Programming is hightech.
Locally, I can control disgruntled elements, but offshore is a little bit
harder. Another important aspect of "Security" is the "lost of hightech
jobs" to local technicians, people like you, me, our future generations....
You do not want your future children to bake crab-toys (happy meal toys) for
McDonald do you ? "Security" is a common sense issue for everyone.
2. Contribution to the Tax Based system

Do you ask all these same questions yourself when you as a CONSUMER
outsource? The same questions should be asked for those that shop at
wal-mart and purchase cheap made in China products.


These are not high tech products. I call them "crabs". Keep in mind that
when you buy an appliance for your home, the sale tax is also included. In
short, hightech works produce larger income, hence helps the system.
Example: Some states in the US are very poor because hightech works had
traveled to somewhere else, educated peoples also migrated with their jobs.
No tax, lo life!

John
Nov 15 '05 #16

P: n/a
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message news:<OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl>...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james
"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.

You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Nokia is a European Company having 90% of its employees in USA. That
time the European salary was 20% higher than USA. Now we are talking
about 800% cheaper wages in India and China, ofcourse nobody will pay
or come back without a trial run. In the long run American companies
will save its brand names with competitive price , uncompetitive
economy will collapse in the long run saving nobody's job.
Nov 15 '05 #17

P: n/a
Hi Bret,

I understand your apprehensions regarding outsourcing and many a
comments posted by other people here are very right. But then as
William Ryan pointed out cost really doesnt tell you anything about
the quality of service you are going to get later on. And as to
whoever you outsource, it is hard to tell by just resumes/ website etc
about any company. Security related, project monitoring, IPR and other
issues will be same in my opinion whether you outsource your project
to an indian company or a local US firm.

I would suggest that to minimize your risks you should insist on
interviewing the people who are going to be assigned to your project.
This would give you a fair idea on not only their programming skills
but also their communication skills. Also wherever possible try and
check references. Choose a firm which has serviced at least a few US
or other foreign clients, preferably in the same language. Check with
those clients about the QOS, deleivery models etc. Check if there was
proper documentation, manuals, quality of code and all, as when one
outsources it is not just to save money but to save a lot of headaches
which come along with having an in house development team. So if in
getting the work cheaply done you end up getting a product/ code which
is poorly maintained, documented then in future if you want to add/
remove some features you are stuck.

And I would say that instead of using the word "cheap", you should try
and look for "less expensive" :-)

Hope it is of some help ..

Warm Regards,

Piyush

rajput%piyush#msn$com
#To reply replace % with _ and # with @ and $ with .
# Sorry for the inconvi but just to aviod spiders.. :-)
Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message news:<40***************@infowest.com>...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

Nov 15 '05 #18

P: n/a
J
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:36:06 -0800, Bret Pehrson wrote:
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks


Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.

Nov 15 '05 #19

P: n/a
Bob Powell [MVP] wrote:
Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over
and both they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql


Or eLance - www.elance.com

-cd

Nov 15 '05 #20

P: n/a
I actually have a small bit of experience with this. I have worked for two
corporations that outsourced some of their development work to their own
offices in New Delhi, India.

In both cases, the quality of work from the Indian employees was fine. In
both cases, the cost of compensation packages to the Indian employees was
considerably less than their US resident counterparts. In both cases, there
was higher-than-expected turnover rate amongst the Indian developers as they
were snatched up at higher wages by a continuing influx of competing firms.

Also, I watched a manager at one of the companies struggle with managing the
work of someone she would never meet. I was not directly involved in her
project, but the general consensus was the Indian employee was incredibly
under-utilized. She just wasn't prepared to manage that kind of work or
that kind of employee, even within the framework of the same corporation.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

- carl

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #21

P: n/a
You raise many good points and I think ultilmately, if everyone thought
outsourcing through, from the companies looking for work to the people being
displaced, this issue could be addressed without all of the bad feeling.
In my experience, too many people just take one side or another and it
should probably be lumped in with Religion and politics as things that
shouldn't be discussed in polite company.

I think if both sides put forth their arguments as clearly and
straighforwardly as your post did, there wouldn't be any debate at all ;-)
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I really didn't mean to imply that programmers in Inda or any other country were somehow inferior to programmers here. I just feel that too many
companies are taking the cheap way out to make a quick buck for the
stockholders and not considering the long term effects of moving development to other countries. (as I explained in my other response to you)
Maybe, "complete oversight" was not the right choice of words. What I mean
is, simply put, if you deal with a company that is readily available to you to do your application/database development, you have more control over the results of that development. It is far easier to explain what you want done to someone who speaks, reads & writes English as a first language as
opposed to someone that has learned it as a second language. I have run
into this problem myself with online tech. support from my ISP. Their Tech Support staff is located in a Call Center in India. Ask them any question
that is even the least bit outside of their scripted question-response
guides and they fall apart. They use American sounding names : last one was a Live Chat Help person: Glen J. as the questions went back and forth, it became evident that this person did not speak English as their native
language. I finally asked and was told that they had only been speaking
English for a short time. I then asked where in India he was located and
his response was: he could not tell me that.
If simple Internet Service related issues create problems with them in
their understanding of the English language, what do you think will happen
with programmers in India that have the same issues of not understanding
English that well? I would hope that the companies there would employ
someone (or several someones) that understand English well enough to do the work assigned to them.
I also have wondered how hard it would be for those "off Shore" programmers to put a little backdoor
into a large application for a financial institution that had online access for their users. It wouldn't be all that hard without some very close
supervision. Think of the damage that could be done by something like that. A lot of bank accounts could get hit easily. It's bad enough that it can
happen here, it's even worse that it can happen outside our borders where we have little recourse.
I really didn't mean to go into a long drawn out post, but, it just bothers me a great deal to know that there are a lot of very good programmers in our own country out of work and being put out of work
because companies in this country cannot find a way to keep those jobs here. There are people that have taken pay cuts to keep their jobs. Just look at
American Airlines. A lot of their employees took a cut to keep the company
going. But, too many companies , instead of talking straight to their own
people, just do away with their jobs instead of trying to reach a solution
that helps the company and continues to provide a job for their employees.
james
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:#t*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
There are tons of good programmers in both countries and I don't think it's
fair to say that just because someone isn't in the same country or can't

be
supervised constantly that they won't do good work. If you outsource here
in the states you won't have 'complete oversight' and to be honest, that

who
would want 'complete oversight' . I think the goal is to hire true
professionals that you don't need to watch and can be counted on to

reliably
produce what they agree to , when they agree to for the price they agree

to.
Perhaps we live in different parts of the country, but hiring quality
developers, particlarly ones with .NET or Java experience has proven
difficult. They are there, but there's a lot more demand than supply. On the other hand, there's no end to the number of guys who make ridiculous
claims on their resumes and think that because they have learned to create a
dynamic message with MessageBox.Show, it's cool to claim they are an
advanced .NET or Java developer. Or because they know SELECT * From
someTable that they are an Advanced Oracle or SQL Server developer.

I'd say on average, 1 in 40 people we've interviewed could do what they
claimed and we've interviewed much more than that...and while we're not
looking to outsource work, it can definitely get frustrating and I see
why many find it a viable alternative. To that end, I guess it really depends on where you happen to be located.

Bill
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to

someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,

don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james
"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you, > offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to
consultants in > another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.
You'll
> rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process
in
> place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.
>
>
>
> "Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
> news:40***************@infowest.com...
> > Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:
> >
> > Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)
> >
> > Bret Pehrson wrote:
> > >
> > > This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.
> > >
> > > I'm considering farming some of my application development to

offshore
> shops
> > > (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
> therefore I'm
> > > looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this

w/o > getting
> > > screwed.
> > >
> > > My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in
> C++/C#,
> > > so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any comments/suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bret Pehrson
> > > mailto:br**@infowest.com
> > > NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence
<<38952rglkwdsl>>
> >
> > --
> > Bret Pehrson
> > mailto:br**@infowest.com
> > NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
>
>



Nov 15 '05 #22

P: n/a
Again you raise some really great points. Bottom line conscious companies
never worry about the real bottom line in my experience..they worry about
the bottom line for this quarter and to hell with Total cost which is the
real metric. I've seen the same thing happen with temp work and outsourcing
locally...limited legal exposure, limited HR issues etc...and we saw where
that ended up. I think companies should look to find the best employees
overall, wherever they come from...

Good employees are cheap at any cost and bad employees are ALWAYs too damned
expensive
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You are right, you cannot tell the quality of someone's work simply by what they charge for their work.
But, it stands to reason that if you insist on looking at immediate cost
alone and not consider the long term, then the cheap inital cost gets lost
in the upkeep or cost over-runs that you mention.
I have no doubt that there are very compentent developers in India as well
as other countries. But, it seems to me that so many companies are
becoming"bottom line concious" that they fail to even consider looking for
other answers here in their own country.
I don't neccessarily believe in protectionism, but, at the same time, I feel that American companies are
failing to consider the impact on our local economy and our own citizens
when they move employment to other countries simply to save money. Also,
they don't seem to take into consideration the fact that they can be
compromising the company's data and intellectual properity simply by giving others in another country access to it's development and maintenance. At
least by having the development and upkeep done here, at their own
facilities or those of another American company, they have some control.
And with another company here in our country, they also have legal recourse if and when problems arise. Which, may not be possible in places like India. Sometimes, saving money in this way really does not save anything. And can end up costing more than it saves.
james

"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:#F**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
You can't tell someone's work by price alone, there are a lot of prima

donna
s out there that charge a lot..but I'll agree that if you get someone who agrees to work for 'cheap' then either they will probably end up doing

cheap
work, or kill you on cost overruns...or worse yet, have enough bugs that

you
spend a fortune on support.
"Trevor" <tr****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to

someone
in
> a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified
programmers
> here in the good old USA that need work
> and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
> and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,

don't
> be suprised at what you end up with.
> just my .02
> james
>
>

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay
for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.



Nov 15 '05 #23

P: n/a
I don't want my children to be scared of a global marketplace and I sure as
hell don't want to raise them so they can't compete in such an environment.

Jobs are earned, they aren't dolled out. Short term market failures are
corrected..I remember all the crap about Japan taking over America in the
80s. all that happened was American Car Dealerships started staying open on
Saturdays and American Cars got a lot better. I hope the same happens with
programming.

Like I said in my other post, way too many people call themselves
programmers b/c they cna write a SELECT * statement in Access or fire a
messagebox in VB. Then they claim they know C++, Oracle, Java etc and
wonder why they can't find a job. When someone in India can actually do it,
they complain their work is moving offshore

NONE OF THE TOP programmers in this country are being displaced. There's
plenty of work here for the truly hard working and talented..and if you get
displaced, it's a good sign you need to learn an few new tricks and try
again.

That's the nature of competitive markets.
"WJ" <JW***@Msn2.Com> wrote in message
news:uN**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
"FDude" <fd***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself
and
your
country as a whole ?
If your talking IP rights issues, the same risk is run whether you

outsource
to India or Indiana.


No. Security means at company and national levels for longterm processes.
You do not want to outsource high-tech works. Programming is hightech.
Locally, I can control disgruntled elements, but offshore is a little bit
harder. Another important aspect of "Security" is the "lost of hightech
jobs" to local technicians, people like you, me, our future

generations.... You do not want your future children to bake crab-toys (happy meal toys) for McDonald do you ? "Security" is a common sense issue for everyone.
2. Contribution to the Tax Based system Do you ask all these same questions yourself when you as a CONSUMER
outsource? The same questions should be asked for those that shop at
wal-mart and purchase cheap made in China products.


These are not high tech products. I call them "crabs". Keep in mind that
when you buy an appliance for your home, the sale tax is also included. In
short, hightech works produce larger income, hence helps the system.
Example: Some states in the US are very poor because hightech works had
traveled to somewhere else, educated peoples also migrated with their

jobs. No tax, lo life!

John

Nov 15 '05 #24

P: n/a
----- Original Message -----
From: "james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net>
Newsgroups:
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp,microsoft .public.dotnet.languages.v
c
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this
is not a spam)
I really didn't mean to go into a long drawn out post, but, it just
bothers me a great deal to know that there are a lot of very good
programmers in our own country out of work and being put out
of work because companies in this country cannot find a way to
keep those jobs here.


Well, that's capitalism for ya. Free trade, competition, the one that
delivers for the best price gets the deal. Any red blooded American
should be all for that.

We're a bunch of spoiled sissies, that's what we are. If the people in India
can do better for less they deserve to get the deal and it would be wrong to
legislate against it. But let me put politics aside for a minute and say
something else on the matter that hasn't been fully addressed yet.
The one big practical problem with moving work to the other side of the
globe in my view is the necessity to spec really really well. Being fair
with ourselves, little companies are capable to do just that. Most times we
just have a vague idea of what we want to achieve and start off, gaining
insight and understanding as we go along and being corrected by the client
that doesn't have all the questions upfront. This is why RAD got popular, we
accept we are not going to get it right the first time and we progress by
trial and error. This approach requires close and frequent communication.
Having to do that overseas, over-culture and over-language is problematic,
to put it mildly.

The idea to move development to cheap-labor countries pops up every now and
then with management that doesn't understand the development process. Still
I believe that as the industry matures and stabalizes, it will be easier to
do it but overall I do not think that time has arived yet and I am not
worried. The type of application will also determine how feasible it is to
just mail the specs and get the software in return. Some applications will
never be produced that way yet others might.

I think this outsoucing thing will be overtaken by another threat before it
gets serious. If they are really that smart and hard working and cheap over
there (and I am inclined to believe they are), would you think they will
wait for us to offer them some business? We will earlier see serious
products and software companies growing over there, taking over the
positions that are today being occupied by the big American and European
software and services companies. While we are watching stock figures,
waiting for the economy to turn around, Asia will grow to be the number 1
economy in the 21st century because those guys actually work. Mark my words!
:-)

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #25

P: n/a
WJ
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:uP**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Like I said in my other post, way too many people call themselves
programmers b/c they cna write a SELECT * statement in Access or fire a
messagebox in VB. Then they claim they know C++, Oracle, Java etc and
wonder why they can't find a job. When someone in India can actually do it, they complain their work is moving offshore


I think this is an over-statement or "exaggeration" here. Many programmers
today, including me, have at least finished 4-years degree in IS. I do not
know where you get these type of programmers from. I got my job not just
presenting my resume, but I had to prove in hand-written test in order to be
hired. In short, I have not seen a "fake" one yet. Man, to get a job that
pays $65K+ annually, you must know what your employer is looking for !

John
Nov 15 '05 #26

P: n/a
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone with
just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB development, 2 Years
SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal Reports. Of the 55 resumes
we took, every one of the people claimed they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical part.
Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after 911, knew Cobol
and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked simple questions like
"what's faster, early or late binding" only the guy that we hired (who was
right out of college could answer it) correctly. Everyone else either
guessed wrong, or wavered back and forth and just took a guess. We asked
sooo many utterly simple questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's
been a while since I had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I
can be really great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new
C++. At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file versus
..cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They couldn't tell
you the difference between a struct and an enum. On the Sql Part,most
coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a redundancy was, a functional
dependency and many other basic questions. Not a big deal for college
freshmen, but for people claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And
then when asked what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it.
Most didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is plain and
simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year expereience in
VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had this on there. Of the
first 10 applicants we got, not one could even tell us what COM stood for.
Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So we had some really really complex
questions like what is the difference between a reference and a value type?
No one knew it. For 1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe.
Asked if they could name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name
anything...and they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What
namespaces do you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms"
was an all too typical answer.

I'm sorry, but I've seen this over and over..That's not to say that there
aren't a bunch of great programmers out there, but in Miami, Augusta, GA and
Spartanburug/Greenville, I've seen the same thing over and over....people
who put so much fluff in their resumes that they are a portriat of something
these folks could never do. Moreoever, these are the same ones bitching the
loadest (at least in my expereience) about the effect 911 has had on IT,
"Jobs moving to India" and H1B's.

But I have yet to see anyone at Wintellect, any of the first rate authors
like Appleman, Vaughn, Sceppa, Prosise, MacDonald, Pattision on and on,
whine about no work. On the contrary, I keep in contact with more than a
few authors and the biggest problem they have is deciding what work to turn
down. I have seen in my personal experience that headhunters contact me
regularly, as in a weekly basis. I hardly consider myself an elite
programmer, but I still get contacted all the time. I have never, and will
never feel threatened by competition, and I doubt most of the people 'making
it' ever will. We have too many resources here in the US..where there's a
will there's a way.

BTW, if I'm wrong, and you know a host of talented .NET PRogrammers that
know either VB.NET or C#, have at least a year's professional experience
with either of them, knows ADO.NET in depth, either Oracle or SQL Server or
MySql and can demonstrably prove they know OOP, and they are looking for a
job, drop me a line...I know more than a few people dying to hire them.
"WJ" <JW***@Msn2.Com> wrote in message
news:eN**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:uP**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Like I said in my other post, way too many people call themselves
programmers b/c they cna write a SELECT * statement in Access or fire a
messagebox in VB. Then they claim they know C++, Oracle, Java etc and
wonder why they can't find a job. When someone in India can actually do it,
they complain their work is moving offshore


I think this is an over-statement or "exaggeration" here. Many programmers
today, including me, have at least finished 4-years degree in IS. I do not
know where you get these type of programmers from. I got my job not just
presenting my resume, but I had to prove in hand-written test in order to

be hired. In short, I have not seen a "fake" one yet. Man, to get a job that
pays $65K+ annually, you must know what your employer is looking for !

John

Nov 15 '05 #27

P: n/a
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.


Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense
( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Server
tool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmer
should know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQL
programming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy" may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you write
above, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking to
see if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were a
bunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisions
about ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3
years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have worked
with A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, must
know I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J on
K with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resume
noticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people lie
pretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and not
enough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be able
to respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,
are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important", no
wonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a job
and be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been asked
questions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have been
told to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resume
in this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, and
endless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever the
job requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain very
low and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, I
wouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when one
is not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.
Nov 15 '05 #28

P: n/a
"Edward Diener" <ed******@tropicsoft.com> wrote in message
news:Oi**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
William Ryan eMVP wrote: I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core
issues, and be able to respond in kind. But if your
questions, some totally relevant while others have little
to do with real programming knowledge in the areas
cited, are any indication of the questions asked which
are deemed "important", no wonder so many
interviewees fail.


I must say, having read the original post that complained about the
applicants I agree it was pretty bad. Sure, you don't have to know Codd and
what COM stands for exactly but if you put a whole range of questions it
will soon be clear where someone has really been. At he same time it seems
odd these people are invited in the first place, if they can't answer the
basic questions they are not likely to have a credible c.v. If you invite
anyone that says "I have the experience you are asking, period" without a
matching carrier description to back it up you deserve to get smiling dudes
in suits. The employer should do homework too before inviting anyone to an
interview.

I have been working for about 10 years now and I have seen both bad and good
times. I recognize most of your frustration. When I left school, the market
was bad and if there was a job available it had to be a 25 year old with 6
years or relevant experience. No one was interested. Then it took off and I
got calls, I was hot potato, everyone wanted to make money on me just by
being the middle man and I could basicall work wherever I wanted to. If I
had an interview in those days it was like this: smiling people with
hopefull faces on the other side keeping their fingers crossed, hoping I
would be willing to come and work for them.

Today it is bad again and I get the same old attitude from when I started.
It is different in that I do have the experience now but I notice that
issues are played again that haven't been played for quite a while. The fact
is, they get so many applications, they just can't cope. The attitude
reflects that. Earlier, employers hired agencies to find people. Now they
hire agencies to hold off the mountain of applications and do the first
selection.

Another thing that works against you when you are looking for a job is that
in bad times everyone knows someone looking for a job so the jobs that are
out there are easily filled without advertising and you won't even see the
job. The ones you do see are the hard ones, either hard in qualifications or
hard because the decisionmakers just don't like anybody. Or they claim to be
looking for skills while they really want someone that is no threat to them,
someone they will be able to manage.
I have been unemployed since the beginning of this month (the company layed
off about 20 people, LIFO), I have been home since december learning ASP.NET
and C#. It takes a kind of attitude to deal with it, the first couple of
months are actually quite nice if you don't have a family breathing down
your neck. But in the long run it will effect you. It is a little easier if
you understand how it works, there's no point in blaming some interviewer or
policy although it can be frustrating at times.

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #29

P: n/a
"Martin Maat" <du***@somewhere.nl> wrote in message news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
The one big practical problem with moving work to the other side of the
globe in my view is the necessity to spec really really well. Being fair
with ourselves, little companies are capable to do just that. Most times we
just have a vague idea of what we want to achieve and start off, gaining
insight and understanding as we go along and being corrected by the client
that doesn't have all the questions upfront. This is why RAD got popular, we
accept we are not going to get it right the first time and we progress by
trial and error. This approach requires close and frequent communication.
Having to do that overseas, over-culture and over-language is problematic,to put it mildly.
Hello, remember we Indians and Indian companies have fought hard and designed the most efficient way of communication which will decrease the pain in this offshore model. I as a Project Leader woking in a IT company in INdia talks to my customers daily over MSN Messenger to understand what they want and we have the best communication methodogies in place. The customer dont have any complain about the Communication Methodolgogies. So dont try make this communication an issue. This is not an issue at all.
The idea to move development to cheap-labor countries pops up every now and then with management that doesn't understand >the development process. Still I believe that as the industry matures and stabalizes, it will be easier to do it but overall I do not >think that time has arived yet and I am not worried. The type of application will also determine how feasible it is to
just mail the specs and get the software in return. Some applications will never be produced that way yet others might. I think this outsoucing thing will be overtaken by another threat before it gets serious. If they are really that smart and hard >working and cheap over there (and I am inclined to believe they are), would you think they will wait for us to offer them some >business? We will earlier see serious products and software companies growing over there, taking over the positions that are >today being occupied by the big American and European software and services companies. While we are watching stock ?>figures,waiting for the economy to turn around, Asia will grow to be the number 1 economy in the 21st century because those >guys actually work. Mark my words!

:-)

You are absolutely Right. We have really realized all this fuss about Out Sourcing and we are realzing how dangerous it is to depend on only Foriegn Market , especially US market. US Market is really a fluctuating market and no one knows whne it will be UP & when it will be down.

So now the India is changing it's IT policiy. It is trying to build up its own Domestic market and trying to avoid over-dependancy on Foreign Market.
By 2020, Indian IT Market is going to be one of the Top in the world and you US develoeprs will come to India in search of jobs.
Mark my words strongly :)

SARADHI

Nov 15 '05 #30

P: n/a
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropicsoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.


Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense
( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Server
tool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmer
should know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQL
programming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy" may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you write
above, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking to
see if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were a
bunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisions
about ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3
years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have worked
with A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, must
know I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J on
K with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resume
noticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people lie
pretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and not
enough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be able
to respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,
are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important", no
wonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a job
and be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been asked
questions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have been
told to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resume
in this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, and
endless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever the
job requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain very
low and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, I
wouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when one
is not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz
Nov 15 '05 #31

P: n/a
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


Linux, gcc, mozilla etc... some good counter examples there.

--
sashan
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~sgov008/

Nov 15 '05 #32

P: n/a
i sum it up to the times. it's pretty desperate out there. some folk just
want a paycheck and will do or say anything. if you haven't been out there,
you don't know. take it from me, it's ruff out there. you cannot blame these
people. screen as best you can but try not to make fun of the answers
because they come from people desperate to earn some kind of income.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.376739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropicsoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.


Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQLprogramming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy" may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking tosee if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important", nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, andendless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz

Nov 15 '05 #33

P: n/a

"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.376739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropicsoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
they had this experience.

They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
plain and simple BS.

Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
we had some really really complex questions like what is the
difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
all too typical answer.
Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowing
what COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),
while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a header
and cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between a
reference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of SQLprogramming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy" may mean different things to different people, is it really
necessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking tosee if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there were abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who doesn't
know the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literate
enough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to know
and which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and J onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with everything
mentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do the
job.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important", nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have taken
tests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, after
weeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, andendless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well answering
questions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of the
time, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, to
hear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should be
working, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesome
than you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz


<<> There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).>> No one would argue

this, but many people don't interview well b/c they lied on their resume and
have no idea what they are talking about. Desperate or not, claiming you
have 2 years experience for instance, in something that you have never used
is a flat out lie and no amount of desparation justifies it.

Edward makes the point that those interview questions were irrelevant but
they weren't by any means the only ones we asked. Would you say that
someone claiming to have 2 years experience in COM and COM+ and 1 year
experinece in .VB.NET that didn't know what Option Strict was or how to use
an Imports statement is is telling the truth? Two people we interviewed
that claimed to be senior .Net developers couldn't do this. What about
someone claiming to know SQL self rated 7 out of 10 that couldn't didn't
know what Group By was or any of the following functions SUM, AVG, Count?
We had another guy who applied for as an Advanced .NET Developer with
Compact Framework Expertise. The guy quickly started choking and couldn't
answer anything....The 'challenging' task we gave him was to create a PDA
app, add a button and a textbox. Once the user fills in the textbox with
some text, show a messagebox with that task. The guy didn't know which
project type to open. HE then claimed his experience was in eVC++ more than
the CF. (Note what the job title and description were..with no reference to
eVC++). But, if he really knew eVC++, we figured he'd be able to learn the
CF pretty easy. So we had the evC++ SDK on the same machine and asked him to
do the same in eVC++. He still couldn't do it. Then he said he mainly
worked on the desktop for the last year and forgot a lot, but he really knew
the .NET Framework. So we asked him to do it in a VB.NET or C# desktop app.
Well, he could drag the button and the textbox and he could show a
messagebox, but he couldn't get the text of the textbox to show as a
message box.
Then there was another guy who was supposedly a Senior Powerbuilder
developer who knew Delphi and worked with both for 4 years. We figured he
could learn .NET with some training. He didn't know how to pass parameters
into a function and claimed you don't have to do that in Delphi.

I'll probably be accused of making this up but I'm not, more than anyone I
wish there were a bunch of talented developers in this area looking for
work. And out of about 50 applicants, this was very typical. Everyone of
them had some tale of woe about 9/11 costing them their job or Indian people
stealing their job because they'd work for $10.00 a day.

After about 5 months we found a great developer right out of school who was
both honest about what he knew and knew his stuff, not to mention he was
willing to learn...I only wish we could find 10 more of him.

Then there's this little tidbit....If Wages are sooooo low in India and all
the jobs are moving over there solely on cost, why is it that a bunch of
recruiters in INDIA, Dehli and Punjab in particular have contacted me about
contracts for Compact Framework development paying quite a bit more than I
make now, and asking me if I knew anyone else who might be interested? Go
look at the Compact Framework group on Yahoo, there are few posts over there
if I remember correctly, looking for US workers to come to India for
somewhere around $70.00/hr plus living expenses and travel?

I totally sympathize with people that don't have work, and I myself have
been unemployed for a while. I had to move to Augusta to find work and
although my background is in OLAP with Oracle and SQL Server, I had to
quickly learn .NET Development. I didn't like moving at the time, and it
was difficult learning .NET when I had been working with Java and dealing
primarily with OLAP for most of my career, but one thing is for sure, it's
not the fault of anyone in India or any other country. IT is a dynamic
field and it's not something you can get comfortable in.

That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earth
with all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.

But don't take my word for it...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/t...20040115.shtml
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/w...20031126.shtml
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/briefs/tbp-007es.html

Bill
Nov 15 '05 #34

P: n/a
Alvin:

I appreciate your comments and I was't making fun of anyone. I just get
really fed up with all of the people over here demonizing India as though
it's the cause of their problems. And I can appreciate being desperate, but
reading a book will get you a lot farther than lying, and lying bad, on a
resume. It wastes everyone's time. I know everyone puts their best foot
forward on resume's, but there is no excuse for flat out lies and that's
what I was speaking to.

I personally wouldn't really look to outsourcing overseas, but I'm not a big
fan of outsourcing in general. My heart truly goes out to anyone that's
unemployed..I just don't think the guys over in India are the reasons for
it. Corporate America does a lot of dumb stuff that leaves employees
holding the bag, foreign employees don't cause this. And I've been hearing
this stuff about foreign workers since I was in high school in the late 80s.
Back then it was the 'Japs' stealing our manufacturing jobs, then in the
early 90's it was the evil Mexicans and Koreans stealing our textile jobs,
then in the late 90's it was those awful H1B visa guys, now it's
outsourcing.

And with all due respect, we NEED India more than a lot of people realize.
Did you know that our very own Department of Defense Outsources a HUGE part
of its Radiology to India? Yes, we don't have the Radiologists here in the
states to read all of the images. So does the private sector. Same holds
for IT..we don't have enough people willing to do phone support and many
other tasks for an amount of money that allows companies to afford Phone
Support.

Bill
"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:ej**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
i sum it up to the times. it's pretty desperate out there. some folk just
want a paycheck and will do or say anything. if you haven't been out there, you don't know. take it from me, it's ruff out there. you cannot blame these people. screen as best you can but try not to make fun of the answers
because they come from people desperate to earn some kind of income.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40307acf.376739171@news-server...
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:58:37 -0500, "Edward Diener"
<ed******@tropicsoft.com> wrote:
William Ryan eMVP wrote:
> Depends on what you call an overstatement. We advertised for someone
> with just one job in particular where we wanted 2 years VB
> development, 2 Years SQL and Or Oracle and familiarity with Crystal
> Reports. Of the 55 resumes we took, every one of the people claimed
> they had this experience.
>
> They all talked a great game except when it came to the technical
> part. Then the whole sob story about how they were displaced after
> 911, knew Cobol and AS400 and a 'little vb' came into play. Asked
> simple questions like "what's faster, early or late binding" only the
> guy that we hired (who was right out of college could answer it)
> correctly. Everyone else either guessed wrong, or wavered back and
> forth and just took a guess. We asked sooo many utterly simple
> questions and each were met with ..."Well, it's been a while since I
> had vb at school, but I was really good at Cobol and I can be really
> great a VB.NET" Then there were a bunch that claimed they new C++.
> At least 20 that I can think of who professed to know C++ and have
> expereience with it, couldn't tell me what was contained in a .h file
> versus .cpp file. They coudln't tell you what IDE They used. They
> couldn't tell you the difference between a struct and an enum. On
> the Sql Part,most coudln't tell you who E.F. Codd was, what a
> redundancy was, a functional dependency and many other basic
> questions. Not a big deal for college freshmen, but for people
> claiming to have 2 years experience with SQL? And then when asked
> what tools they used in SQL Server, they couldn't answer it. Most
> didn't know what Query Analyzer, Enterprise Manage or SQL Plus
> was...and for working 2 years with ORacle or SQL Server, this is
> plain and simple BS.
>
> Then we ran an ad for a VB.NET developer with at least 1 year
> expereience in VB.NET or C#, and 3 years with COM. Every resume had
> this on there. Of the first 10 applicants we got, not one could even
> tell us what COM stood for. Ok, maybe they didn't know acronyms. So
> we had some really really complex questions like what is the
> difference between a reference and a value type? No one knew it. For
> 1 year with VB.NET or C#, that's hard to believe. Asked if they could
> name three objects in ADO.NET , only two could name anything...and
> they could only name the dataadapter or dataset. What namespaces do
> you know the best..."Well, I only worked with Windows Forms" was an
> all too typical answer.

Perhaps the problem is your questions. Some of your questions are nonsense( who E.F. Codd is has nothing to do with using SQL effectively, knowingwhat COM stands for has nothing to do with using it, remembering SQL Servertool names has little to do with programming modules using SQL Server ),while many are relevant and are a test of knowledge ( every C++ programmershould know what a struct or enum is, and the difference between a headerand cpp file, every .NET programmer should know the difference between areference and value type ). Some are borderline ( is it really a test of
SQL
programming to know the terms "functional dependency" and even the term
"redundancy" may mean different things to different people, is it
reallynecessary to remember the exact names of classes, not objects as you
writeabove, in ADO .NET, or any other API ).

I think the real problem is the emphasis place on bits and pieces of
knowledge as a measure of programming skills. Do you ever try to have a
discussion of technical knowledge in a core area in which you are looking to
see if the interviewee knows about it, rather than ask random questions
which you deem important ?

Here is a good example of irrelevancy ? You wrote above "Then there
were
abunch that claimed they new C++." Should I decide that anyone who
doesn'tknow the difference between "new and "knew" couldn't possibly be literateenough to work for my company ? Anyone can play the game by which
decisionsabout ability are based on some idea of which facts are important to knowand which aren't.

Nowadays the requirements for a programming job are ridiculous: must have 3
years of X, must have 4 years of Y, must have 6 years of Z, must have workedwith A, B, and C in an enterprise environment for 2 and a half years, mustknow I, J, and K thoroughly and have worked 2 years implementing I and
J
onK with L as a possible alternative etc. etc., that to even get one's resumenoticed if one "knows" two or three of the main areas mentioned, people liepretty blatantly about their experience. Can you blame them ?

Some people have worked with technologies in the past which they could
easily pick up again if they were offered a job which supposedly needed
knowledge in that technology, but they can't have worked with
everythingmentioned in most ads at the exact moment in which the interview takes
place. So they don't remember some particularity which the interviewer
considers important to know to get a job. Perhaps the problem is the
overemphasis on things that are irrelevant for that particular job, and
notenough relevance on core issues which the interviewee must know to do thejob.

I am not saying that an interviewee must not know core issues, and be ableto respond in kind. But if your questions, some totally relevant while
others have little to do with real programming knowledge in the areas cited,are any indication of the questions asked which are deemed "important", nowonder so many interviewees fail.

It has become a demeaning process for many programmers to be look for a joband be interviewed. Despite twenty four years of experience, I have takentests in which I consistently scored in the 90-100% range, I have been askedquestions time and time again which I have been glad to answer, I have beentold to build a portfolio, get this or that certification, change my resumein this or that way. Yet if I do manage to get the rare interview, afterweeks or months sometimes of phone calls and pre-interviewing screening, and
endless false promises and manipulations, and I do fairly well
answeringquestions and showing my knowledge and willingness to take on whatever
thejob requires ( work at night, work on the weekends, travel 25-50% of thetime, answer customer support questions, etc. etc. ) my chances remain verylow and inevitably someone else is chosen.

It is always wonderful, when one is looking for a job in a recession, tohear others tell about how anyone with knowledge and experience should beworking, because they are. The reality is far different and more gruesomethan you can possibly know. Despite my own sufferings on the job
market, Iwouldn't wish the situation on you. I do hear what you are saying about
interviewees not knowing basic things about the areas in which they are
looking for work, but you do really need to take into account that when oneis not able to find work, and yet one knows that he or she is talented
enough to do many jobs, there inevitably will occur people applying for
positions in which they do not really know all the areas which are
supposedly required.

Edward,
Thank you for a breath of fresh air in this discussion. While I am
not in your uneviable position of looking for work, your points are
valid.

There -are- plenty of talented people who could do the job quite
well but may interview poorly because the relevancy of a question
is, well, just not relevant to doing the job (even if the interviewer
understood it, which many times is not the case).

And the problem with outsourcing to overseas is that ultimately
you just cannot compete with someone willing to work for U.S.
$10,000/year, or even if that is not a factor, I wouldn't want
to relocate to New Jersey just to take a job that was perfect in
most other respects.

I like your attitude and while I am not in a position at present
to hire you, when I am you have a job.

It will be even more refreshing when some of these Chardonnay-
sipping you-can-get-a-job-if-you-want types have the shoe on
their other foot, assuming that they can afford shoes.

Oz


Nov 15 '05 #35

P: n/a
Well said!
"sashan" <no*****@important.com> wrote in message
news:c0**********@lust.ihug.co.nz...
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don'tbe suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


Linux, gcc, mozilla etc... some good counter examples there.

--
sashan
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~sgov008/

Nov 15 '05 #36

P: n/a
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell advertising
space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have
to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a
lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a
way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you
call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us
your c.v.".

Martin.
Nov 15 '05 #37

P: n/a
Martin:

Unfortunately that's true, but at least here It's hard to believe that
constitutes the majority of the posts. Depending on when you look and what
you fill iin, it's about 40/60 companies vs. headhunters.... I would
certianly agree that job boards alone don't dictate the number of available
jobs, but on the other hand they do correlate.

My only point is that here in the states, there are quite a few jobs
available..they jobs have hardly all moved to Mexico

I'll tell you one thing though, the most rare thing in this country right
now is a 'free trader' But considering we have unionized industries
consisting of people making over 100k a year, many of which are
multimillionares, why does that surprise me ;-).
"Martin Maat" <du***@somewhere.nl> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell

advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #38

P: n/a
I think that would be actionable as false advertising under U.S. law.
Probably under Dutch law too.

"Martin Maat" <du***@somewhere.nl> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I do
have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell

advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased by intermediary
agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make some up because
they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley and Computer Futures that are
notorious for that. The casual visitor of the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not the least bit interested, will not be able to
tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #39

P: n/a
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:11 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP" <
<snip>
That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs here
for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earth
with all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.


<snip>
Have another glass of Chardonay.

Oz
Nov 15 '05 #40

P: n/a
"Michael A. Covington" <lo**@www.covingtoninnovations.com.for.address> wrote
in message news:uM**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
I think that would be actionable as false advertising under U.S. law.
Probably under Dutch law too.
I doubt it. It works like this:

These intermediaries are looking for business so they call some of the big
service companies, the employers of the people that are put to work at the
sites of companies that actually have the work. The conversation would go
like

intermediary> "Could you be interested in some really good and skilled
people for your business?"

service company> "Sure, we are always interested to see top-notch people
that can grow with us, enhancing our business".

intermediary> "How about me putting some forward to you? And you paying me
when they appear to be a good match?"

service company> "You can send us the c.v.'s. If we do need anyone we will
contact you and you can send them over. Then if we hire
one you will get your share. We need people in these area's: <list of skills
and traits>."
This would technically not be a false advertisement. The trained reader will
spot these kind of ads and assess then for what they are worth. It takes
some experience though. They will never state "this is not for real at the
moment, you will end up in a database and oh, there are about a dozen other
agencies doing the same but hey, in a couple of months, your c.v. may pop up
on some query and who knows". They will consciously suggest that this job is
hot, lots of times it will even say "urgently needed" and terms alike.

Another thing that may give the wrong impression is that when some company
actually does put out the word that they have a real vacancy, there will be
10 intermediary agencies jumping on it, all advertising on the same forum.
This will be very clear of course, the job describtion will be more specific
than that of the phony ones and several almost identical ads will appear on
the same forum at the same time. Most of the time the company itself also
has an ad out somewhere that you will be able to find or you will recognize
the company by the job description and you can address them directly.
You state that there are jobs out here, sure there are jobs out there. But
most of them are never advertised for, they are filled in silently without
any intermediary or ad. In order to be there in time you need a good network
and not many people have that. So you cannot blame someone without a job for
not finding the vacancy he would have been perfect for. Okay, that wasn't
exactly what you were doing but it is the message that is absorbed by those
who have been looking to no avail for a long time.

Martin.

"Martin Maat" <du***@somewhere.nl> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
"William Ryan eMVP" <bi**@NoSp4m.devbuzz.com> wrote in message
news:eH**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs
here for talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.
com or dice will prove me right.


I cannot speak for the United States, I live in The Netherlands, but I
do have one thing to say about job advertisements for very interesting
programming jobs on monsterboard and the like. Those sites sell
advertising space by numbers and by contract, most of it is purchased
by intermediary agencies. If there are no jobs, those agencies will make
some up because they payed for the space. They will put in 10 phony
jobs a day if they have to. Over here we have companies like Huxley
and Computer Futures that are notorious for that. The casual visitor of
the site will think "Wow, that's a lot of jobs! And reaaly cool ones too!" while they merely are exposure and a way to collect personal data for
better times. You may fit perfectly, if you call it appears they are not
the least bit interested, will not be able to tell you anything about the job and all you get is a bored "you can send us your c.v.".

Martin.

Nov 15 '05 #41

P: n/a
Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local and non-local). My
specs are *very* well defined beforehand.

Derrick wrote:

Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#, so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #42

P: n/a
Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers, and so far have lost
a lot of my money on babysitting...

And yes, candidates/consultants were *thoroughly* evaluated prior to any work
starting.
Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/
offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ
THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.
james wrote:
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

"Derrick" <de*********@excite.com> wrote in message
news:#0**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away.

You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

Bret Pehrson wrote:
>
> This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.
>
> I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
> (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and

therefore I'm
> looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
> screwed.
>
> My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in
C++/C#,
> so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.
>
> Anyone have any comments/suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Bret Pehrson
> mailto:br**@infowest.com
> NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence

<<38952rglkwdsl>>
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>



--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #43

P: n/a
> Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.
Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Trevor wrote:
"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone

in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #44

P: n/a
I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.
"ozbear" <oz*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4031ddba.467597765@news-server...
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:11 -0500, "William Ryan eMVP" <
<snip>
That's all my original point was, it wasn't to disparage American workers.But I stand by the fact that the contention that there aren't any jobs herefor talented developers is a Myth. A simply trip to Monster.com or dice
will prove me right. And if we, who live in the richest country on earthwith all of our educational resources can't compete with countries like
India, that says much more about us then them. And If I lose my job
tomorrow, I will still stand by this statement.


<snip>
Have another glass of Chardonay.

Oz

Nov 15 '05 #45

P: n/a
Bret:

Scroll down to the original posts and see how ridiculous this whole thing
got. Basically it's turned into a bunch of capitalism and India
bashing...I'm with you on this one!
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40**************@infowest.com...
Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.
Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and

ended up w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Trevor wrote:

"james" <jjames700ReMoVeMe at earthlink dot net> wrote in message
news:OK**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone
in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified

programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far

away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal,
don't be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james


Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for".

I didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

Nov 15 '05 #46

P: n/a
FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

William Ryan eMVP wrote:

You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top
notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb
work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to
outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp).
Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him,
I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive,
doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's
not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are
setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do
is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the
hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that
you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when,
and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have
actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one
man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that
have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so
they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does
happen). Also, check the references....if you see only companies that you
can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and
remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to
charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #47

P: n/a
I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.

gabriel wrote:

Bret Pehrson wrote:
I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore
shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go
about this w/o getting screwed.


Yeh, right... Ask the people loosing their jobs to help you with this...
LOL!

DUH!!!

--
gabriel


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #48

P: n/a
Thanks for the link.

Do you have any experiences w/ this service?

As I said in my original post, I'm looking specifically for comments.

I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time and on budget.
Period.

"Bob Powell [MVP]" wrote:

Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over and both
they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql

If you want cheap, I wont even dream about offering you my services.

--
Bob Powell [MVP]
C#, System.Drawing

Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ
http://www.bobpowell.net/gdiplus_faq.htm

Read my Blog at http://bobpowelldotnet.blogspot.com

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...
This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore

shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore

I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o

getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in

C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #49

P: n/a
Again, do you have any comments or experiences w/ elance?

"Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]" wrote:

Bob Powell [MVP] wrote:
Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over
and both they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql


Or eLance - www.elance.com

-cd


--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>
Nov 15 '05 #50

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