Where's the NG to complain about VS 2003 IDE?

[Bret Pehrson]

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual
Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[DalePres]

On Borland's site

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[C# Learner]

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual
Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks

If you don't mind me asking, what's so bad about it? I'm curious
since I've not used it before and, up until now, I've only ever heard
good comments about it.

Cheers

[Brian W]

microsoft.public.vsnet.ide

Though, you probably can't say anything that hasn't been said before ;)

Good luck

Brian W

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[William Stacey]

If it was perfect, people like you would not have anything to complain about
;-)
Besides, use notepad or emacs, and the command line compiler like the ms
developers do :-)
--
William Stacey, MVP

"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks
--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[C# Learner]

"William Stacey" <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

If it was perfect, people like you would not have anything to complain about
;-)
Besides, use notepad or emacs, and the command line compiler like the ms
developers do :-)

Notepad... tabs... hmm.

:-)

[Bret Pehrson]

Nah, I don't mind you asking...

First, the visual designer is pure junk. Laying out HTML components is next to
impossible. You can't select anything (you click on one thing, and something
else gets selected), you don't have access to a lot of the HTML properties (try
setting up cell gridlines), etc. etc. etc. I usually end up doing my HTML
design in Front Page, then paste it into the VS page. What a mess that is.
Also, it would *REALLY* be nice if when switching from design view to HTML the
selected item was highlighted in the HTML code.

Another major gripe is the error output -- if you have an undefined type when
compiling, it usually shows up as the *next* type, which is usually defined.
So, you go pulling your hair out trying to figure out why the defined symbol
isn't defined according to the compiler, until you figure out or remember that
it really is the previous symbol that is undefined. I've spent more than a few
hours on that stupid bug.

Third, the visual designer has a nasty tendency to overwrite your raw code (it
happens all the time in the raw HTML code). (And no, the code isn't in a wizard
section...)

Blah, blah, blah...

C# Learner wrote:

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the Visual
Studio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks

If you don't mind me asking, what's so bad about it? I'm curious
since I've not used it before and, up until now, I've only ever heard
good comments about it.

Cheers

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

I agree the html component of studio needs some work but it isn't as bad as
what you are griping about. Consider that MS is really pushing code-behind
so that is where you should be migrating too.
I think it's the right approach to wean developers out of that classic ASP
inline page junk. The list is too long to warrant any time and effort as to
why it's terrible to program this way with the new model.

I suspect that is the large part of the reason the HTML editor sucks. It
just isn't priority. And rightly so because ASP is past tense. The
code-behind portion is excellent. Occasionally, I do need to muck with the
aspx code but I tend to avoid it as much as possible. Most everything can be
done from the code-behind. Most everything.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Bret Pehrson" <br**@infowest.com> wrote in message
news:40***************@infowest.com...

Nah, I don't mind you asking...

First, the visual designer is pure junk. Laying out HTML components is next to impossible. You can't select anything (you click on one thing, and something else gets selected), you don't have access to a lot of the HTML properties (try setting up cell gridlines), etc. etc. etc. I usually end up doing my HTML
design in Front Page, then paste it into the VS page. What a mess that is. Also, it would *REALLY* be nice if when switching from design view to HTML the selected item was highlighted in the HTML code.

Another major gripe is the error output -- if you have an undefined type when compiling, it usually shows up as the *next* type, which is usually defined. So, you go pulling your hair out trying to figure out why the defined symbol isn't defined according to the compiler, until you figure out or remember that it really is the previous symbol that is undefined. I've spent more than a few hours on that stupid bug.

Third, the visual designer has a nasty tendency to overwrite your raw code (it happens all the time in the raw HTML code). (And no, the code isn't in a wizard section...)

Blah, blah, blah...

C# Learner wrote:

Bret Pehrson <br**@infowest.com> wrote:

Hey, which newsgroup is for complaining about how amazingly crappy the VisualStudio 2003 IDE is?

Thanks

If you don't mind me asking, what's so bad about it? I'm curious
since I've not used it before and, up until now, I've only ever heard
good comments about it.

Cheers

--
Bret Pehrson
mailto:br**@infowest.com
NOSPAM - Include this key in all e-mail correspondence <<38952rglkwdsl>>

[William Stacey]

What?

--
William Stacey, MVP

"C# Learner" <cs****@learner.here> wrote in message
news:2d********************************@4ax.com...

"William Stacey" <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

If it was perfect, people like you would not have anything to complain about;-)
Besides, use notepad or emacs, and the command line compiler like the ms
developers do :-)

Notepad... tabs... hmm.

:-)

[Rob Teixeira [MVP]]

On a side note- because i think he was complaining a bit about the reformat
(aka total mess) the designer creates when you sometimes switch from Design
mode to HTML mode. This no longer happens in the next version of VS. It
leaves your HTML formatting alone.

-Rob Teixeira [MVP]

"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:uC*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

I agree the html component of studio needs some work but it isn't as bad as what you are griping about. Consider that MS is really pushing code-behind
so that is where you should be migrating too.
I think it's the right approach to wean developers out of that classic ASP
inline page junk. The list is too long to warrant any time and effort as to why it's terrible to program this way with the new model.

I suspect that is the large part of the reason the HTML editor sucks. It
just isn't priority. And rightly so because ASP is past tense. The
code-behind portion is excellent. Occasionally, I do need to muck with the
aspx code but I tend to avoid it as much as possible. Most everything can be done from the code-behind. Most everything.

--

[C# Learner]

"William Stacey" <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

What?

I was referring to your Notepad comment. I don't know if you've ever
used Notepad, but it sucks for writing code -- it doesn't do
auto-tab-indents.

[William Stacey]

Yes thanks. Used it once or twice. Ref to Notepad was to refer to using
some text editor outside the IDE and compile via command line. Nobody would
really "use" it for anything but emergency, but if you can do it Notepad,
you can do it in anything - well, ya get the point. BTW, the IDE does
auto-tab-indents - so I guess it has a least one thing for you :-)

--
William Stacey, MVP

"C# Learner" <cs****@learner.here> wrote in message
news:sm********************************@4ax.com...

"William Stacey" <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

What?

I was referring to your Notepad comment. I don't know if you've ever
used Notepad, but it sucks for writing code -- it doesn't do
auto-tab-indents.

[Jeffrey Tan[MSFT]]

Hi Bret,

Thank you for posting in the community!

Based on my understanding, you feel un-comfortable about the Visual
Studio.Net IDE. And you want to find a place to talk about it.

================================================== ==
I think you may paste your problem in the group below, it is used to
discuss the IDE related issue, you may get more help there. Also, my
colleague will help you there.
microsoft.public.vsnet.ide

Anyway, for your compliant, I will try my best to help you one by one here.

In your "First" compliant, I can not understand why "You can't select
anything", can you provide us a reproduce steps?

For your "Also, it would *REALLY* be nice if when switching from design
view to HTML the selected item was highlighted in the HTML code.", I can
reproduce it. I think it is the default behavior of Html designer in
VS.net. If you feel it not very nice, please feel free to feedback to
Microsoft at:
http://register.microsoft.com/mswish/suggestion.asp
or mail to: ms****@microsoft.com

For your "error output" issue, I can not reproduce it, so I can not confirm
it as a bug for you, you may provide your further detailed information for
it.

For the third one, the Visual Studio.Net html designer really may format
your code, but it will not change your html logic, it just use another way
of html syntax for it.

Some where of the code designer, such as InitializeComponent method also
may change your modify in it, because it is not intended for you to modify.
There is comment in the code designer to note your for this:
/// <summary>
/// Required method for Designer support - do not modify
/// the contents of this method with the code editor.
/// </summary>

==================================================
Thank you for your patience and cooperation. If you have any questions or
concerns, please feel free to post it in the group. I am standing by to be
of assistance.

Best regards,
Jeffrey Tan
Microsoft Online Partner Support
Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "as is" with no warranties and confers no rights.

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

William Stacey <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

Yes thanks. Used it once or twice. Ref to Notepad was to refer to using
some text editor outside the IDE and compile via command line. Nobody would
really "use" it for anything but emergency, but if you can do it Notepad,
you can do it in anything - well, ya get the point. BTW, the IDE does
auto-tab-indents - so I guess it has a least one thing for you :-)

Actually, I do it all the time - not using Notepad, but using a light-
weight Emacs clone which comes up in the blink of an eye rather than
VS.NET's understandably slower start.

Almost all the little test programs I write/check for newsgroups are
written using this editor and compiled with the command line.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Stephan Rose]

vs.net slow start?

I can load VS.Net plus my 10 project solution in under 10
seconds....ok maybe not blink of an eye....but....since this only
happens like what? once a day?......I'm not complaining.

Stephan

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Stephan Rose <ke**********@kermos-no-spam-reversed.net> wrote:

vs.net slow start?
Yes, compared with a simple text editor.
I can load VS.Net plus my 10 project solution in under 10
seconds....ok maybe not blink of an eye....but....since this only
happens like what? once a day?......I'm not complaining.

When I'm working on my "work" projects, I don't want to have to change
solution every time I want to answer a newsgroup post, nor do I want to
add extra projects just to do so. Also, I'm not always working on C#,
and I don't want to have VS.NET up all day when I'm only using it
occasionally. I probably pop up the text editor twenty times a day -
and at that stage, a 10 second pause is definitely annoying.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Stephan Rose]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:30:51 -0000, Jon Skeet [C# MVP]
<sk***@pobox.com> wrote:

Stephan Rose <ke**********@kermos-no-spam-reversed.net> wrote:

vs.net slow start?

Yes, compared with a simple text editor.

I can load VS.Net plus my 10 project solution in under 10
seconds....ok maybe not blink of an eye....but....since this only
happens like what? once a day?......I'm not complaining.

When I'm working on my "work" projects, I don't want to have to change
solution every time I want to answer a newsgroup post, nor do I want to
add extra projects just to do so. Also, I'm not always working on C#,
and I don't want to have VS.NET up all day when I'm only using it
occasionally. I probably pop up the text editor twenty times a day -
and at that stage, a 10 second pause is definitely annoying.

ahh ok...I just start up vs.net and....that's it. :)

Since I work from home there actually are times when this happens once
a week lol :)

Stephan

[William Stacey]

Exactly. If you notice on the MSDN shows, people like Don Box and others
use Emacs a lot. I never used it in my *nix days (used vi) and not real
sure I want to learn it now as ide works for me - but have been thinking
about it. Which Emacs clone do you like?

--
William Stacey, MVP

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...

William Stacey <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

Yes thanks. Used it once or twice. Ref to Notepad was to refer to using some text editor outside the IDE and compile via command line. Nobody would really "use" it for anything but emergency, but if you can do it Notepad, you can do it in anything - well, ya get the point. BTW, the IDE does
auto-tab-indents - so I guess it has a least one thing for you :-)

Actually, I do it all the time - not using Notepad, but using a light-
weight Emacs clone which comes up in the blink of an eye rather than
VS.NET's understandably slower start.

Almost all the little test programs I write/check for newsgroups are
written using this editor and compiled with the command line.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

William Stacey <st***********@mvps.org> wrote:

Exactly. If you notice on the MSDN shows, people like Don Box and others
use Emacs a lot. I never used it in my *nix days (used vi) and not real
sure I want to learn it now as ide works for me - but have been thinking
about it. Which Emacs clone do you like?

It's one called Jed.

http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/ is the place to get the latest and greatest
version - the one I'm using is years old :)

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

My codesnippets come from my existing project. I just clear a portion of
lines and create my snippets. Easy in easy out. I can't tell you how many
times snippets left in made it into production testing with wierd results
and sour faces. shhhhhh

Studio does come up slowly especially if it is wired to source-safe. ya i
know i have some bad habits...

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Stephan Rose" <ke**********@kermos-no-spam-reversed.net> wrote in message
news:ak********************************@4ax.com...

vs.net slow start?

I can load VS.Net plus my 10 project solution in under 10
seconds....ok maybe not blink of an eye....but....since this only
happens like what? once a day?......I'm not complaining.

Stephan

[Eric Gunnerson [MS]]

Try microsoft.public.vsnet.general (or perhaps .ide, I don't remember the
exact structure...)

--
Eric Gunnerson

Visit the C# product team at http://www.csharp.net
Eric's blog is at http://weblogs.asp.net/ericgu/

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Alvin Bruney [MVP]" <vapor at steaming post office> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

My codesnippets come from my existing project. I just clear a portion of
lines and create my snippets. Easy in easy out. I can't tell you how many
times snippets left in made it into production testing with wierd results
and sour faces. shhhhhh

Studio does come up slowly especially if it is wired to source-safe. ya i
know i have some bad habits...

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney [ASP.NET MVP]
Got tidbits? Get it here...
http://tinyurl.com/3he3b
"Stephan Rose" <ke**********@kermos-no-spam-reversed.net> wrote in message
news:ak********************************@4ax.com...

vs.net slow start?

I can load VS.Net plus my 10 project solution in under 10
seconds....ok maybe not blink of an eye....but....since this only
happens like what? once a day?......I'm not complaining.

Stephan

[Jeffrey Tan[MSFT]]

Hi Bret,

Does the community's reply make sense to you?

If you still have any concern, please feel free to tell me or post in
microsoft.public.vsnet.ide for your issue.

I will wait for your feedback, thanks

Best regards,
Jeffrey Tan
Microsoft Online Partner Support
Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided "as is" with no warranties and confers no rights.