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C# vs. C++

cj
I don't want to start a war but why would I choose one over the other?
First and foremost I need to keep in mind marketability of the skill and
the future of the language.

I'm getting the feeling I'll be moving from VB to one or the other. I
have some say on which but perhaps not the final decision. I have used
C and C++ a little bit years ago. I have no experience in C#. I don't
expect it to be that difficult but I hate remembering the idiosyncrasies
of too many languages so I'd like to pick one C# or C++ and make the
right choice.
Jun 27 '08
151 4300
Angus wrote:
If you wanted to write a general purpose program with a small footprint,
with good performance then C++ is a great choice.
And if you want to write a program that solves the business
problem with minimal cost then C# is a great choice.

Arne
Jun 30 '08 #121
Andre Kaufmann wrote:
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>[...]
>>Boost is a good, cool library - sure. But these libraries get
somewhat bloated, because of all the template stuff and compilation
slows down more and more.

Compilation speed is usually not important.

Why ? For RAD tools it's IMHO essential and if 1000 developers wait
daily an hour for compilation they are loosing simply 1000 hours of
development time, besides the energy wasted.

I'm simply used to quickly recompile my code after a compilation error.
In C++ is meant to compile fast code. Why can't the compiler be not that
fast ? The sad story is - it could be.
On modern hardware I believe that 1 hours compilation per day for
each developer in most cases will be an indication of a badly structured
project and/or build.

And besides I would expect the developers to think while they wait
for the build to complete.

Arne
Jun 30 '08 #122
Hendrik Schober wrote:
Andre Kaufmann <an************ *********@t-online.dewrote:
[...]
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Simply productivity.
Yes, include files and macros are a PITA. But, as I said,
it easily gets better by using more hardware resources.
And that's a cheap way to solve a problem. How much your
Besides the energy prices are rising too ;-).
I think I know what you mean, but anyways I would prefer faster
compilation, because I wouldn't have to spend that much time to decouple
my modules with e.g. pimpl idiom and handling precompiled header files.
language supports you in writing correct code is IMO far
more important.
Agreed.
[...]
Schobi
Andre

Jun 30 '08 #123
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Andre Kaufmann wrote:
>I don't know the interfaces today. The good old JNI interface was a
pain to deal with.

JNI is for JVM -native.

JVM -JVM is different.
>Is it really that simple in Java too:

- Write a class in any language and compile
- Compile the code to a Dll
- Use the code from any other language targeting the JVM too ?

Yes.

See example below.
Thanks for the sample.
Arne
Andre
[...]
Jun 30 '08 #124
Hendrik Schober wrote:
Andre Kaufmann <an************ *********@t-online.dewrote:
[...]
Google for discussions I had here with Daveed Vandervoorde
and Walter Bright about 'export'. Daveed assured that it
would solve what is my worst problem with templates: That
I not only need to put the template itself in headers, but
also all the templates it depends on. ('namespace detail',
anyone?) That makes for thousands of LoC in headers and,
according to Daveed, 'export' would solve this.
O.k., export hides the implementation for sure. But if I use the
template the compiler still has to compile the whole code at least for
each new instantiation (new type) and I wonder how often that will be if
the exported template code uses meta templates and other templates.
The compiler then must have a kind of global overview to check if it
needs to compile the code or not, since it has to know the
implementation in contrast to "non template" code.

I like separation too. But it would be sufficient for me to separate the
template code in a single file or into to files without export, if the
compiler would compile the code faster anyways.
>[...]
Schobi
Andre
Jun 30 '08 #125
Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Andre Kaufmann wrote:
>Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>[...]
Boost is a good, cool library - sure. But these libraries get
somewhat bloated, because of all the template stuff and compilation
slows down more and more.
Compilation speed is usually not important.
Why ? For RAD tools it's IMHO essential and if 1000 developers wait
daily an hour for compilation they are loosing simply 1000 hours of
development time, besides the energy wasted.

I'm simply used to quickly recompile my code after a compilation error.
In C++ is meant to compile fast code. Why can't the compiler be not that
fast ? The sad story is - it could be.

On modern hardware I believe that 1 hours compilation per day for
each developer in most cases will be an indication of a badly structured
project and/or build.
What if you have to fiddle with templates in a
several MLoC project?
And besides I would expect the developers to think while they wait
for the build to complete.
Not 90% of the day.
(Go to
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...000000043.html
and read the first paragraph of #9.)
Arne
Schobi
Jun 30 '08 #126
In article news:<48******* *************** *@news.sunsite. dk>, Arne
Vajhøj wrote:
Good OOP is about limiting choices.
No it isn't. It's about a certain kind of encapsulation.

Encapsulation is limiting choices.
Encapsulation /can/ limit choices (as your example neatly shows) but
that is not its main function.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Jun 30 '08 #127
In article news:<48******* *************** *@news.sunsite. dk>, Arne
Vajhøj wrote:
That is one of the worst pieces of logic I have seen in a long time.
If I were trying to make the argument you seem to think I am making
then you would be right about that!

I wrote:
>>>I understand that the design of the JVM specifically makes
it hard to taget it with C or C++.
... but note that "specifical ly" does not mean (and should not be
taken to imply) "deliberate ly".

(and for "taget" read "target")

The point I was making was that the JVM lacks instuctions for pointer
handling that would be needed if it were to be targeted by some other
languages than Java -- /specifically/ C-like languages.
All the same, most of the languages you list -- and those in
the Wikipedia article you cited -- are experimental "academic"
languages, which aren't likely to be anyone's first choice for
commercial application.

Ada, Python, Ruby etc. are all used commercially.
Yes, of course they are. I said that *most* of the cited languages
were eperimental ... and then went on to single out Jython, etc., as
the exceptions.

Saying that (say) Python is used commercially -- we ALL know that --
is is rather different from saying that Jython is used commercially
(it is, but on *nothing* *like* the same scale and only because of its
ability to interoperate with Java).

Cheers,
Daniel.


Jun 30 '08 #128
Moreover, I doubt that very big and successfull apps (like Microsoft
Office, or Visual Studio, or even non-Microsoft apps like Photoshop)
could be built using C# (or Java...). Or, if they would be built with
C# or some other "managed" language, what would be the memory
occupation and would they be as snappy as the C++ versions?
I think people have noticed exactly that.... newer versions of Visual Studio
are much slower and memory intensive than the most recent non-.NET version,
hence the "10 is the new 6" goal we hear from the MS developer tools team.

And lest you think that Visual Studio isn't written in C# since at least
2005, let me point out:

The Forms Designer works by loading and executing your custom control code
in-process.
I've gotten NullReferenceEx ception dialogs many times from the IDE itself.
Try using the Tools-Customize command on a right-click context menu, for
example (I wanted to change the accelerator keys), and see what happens.
Jun 30 '08 #129
Rudy Velthuis wrote:
Daniel Boulerice wrote:
>>
CJ,

I guess you were surprised of how many replies you got so far!!

Anyway, if you want to move to C# or C++, know this:

a.. C# is a virtual machine - a little like java and VB already -
at run-time your program is interpreted by another program called the
CLR.

No, it isn't. At runtime, it is compiled just-in-time and it runs
natively, it is not interpreted. The CLR is not another program
either, it is the main runtime library that comes with .NET, and also
runs natively. AFAIK, most C++ products also have a runtime library.
.NET's CLR is just more extensive.
The CLR is not the same as the BCL. The BCL is comparable to the runtime
library of other languages, C++ doesn't need anything corresponding to the
CLR.
Jun 30 '08 #130

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