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C# vs. C++

cj
I don't want to start a war but why would I choose one over the other?
First and foremost I need to keep in mind marketability of the skill and
the future of the language.

I'm getting the feeling I'll be moving from VB to one or the other. I
have some say on which but perhaps not the final decision. I have used
C and C++ a little bit years ago. I have no experience in C#. I don't
expect it to be that difficult but I hate remembering the idiosyncrasies
of too many languages so I'd like to pick one C# or C++ and make the
right choice.
Jun 27 '08
151 4308
Hendrik Schober wrote:
Rudy Velthuis <ne********@rve lthuis.dewrote:
>Hendrik Schober wrote:
>> You can always throw processing power at this problem
(www.xoreax.com). This worked great for a company I used
Thanks for the link.
>> to work for and turned 60mins into 12mins.
Still a long time. <g>

Yes, but this was several MLoC. And usually you don't
have to compile /everything/ during writing/fixing
code.
Yes, agreed. But in a large team it's still a pain to start the build
process over and over again, because in your local project it compiled
fine but in another project some weird side effect causes a compilation
error.

Even if I use processing power, C++ still compiles way more slower than
most of the other languages do. Currently our build time is 30 minutes,
which has been 3 hours before we switched to a quad core system.

I could live with the compilation time, if the slow down would be caused
by the complex syntax of C++ only and if that would be outweighed by the
productivity increase by all the goodies of C++ (templates, RAII etc.).
But since the slow down isn't caused by the complexity, but because the
compiler has to compile code over and over again, I think it's a huge
loss of productivity for - nothing - .

I hope modules will fix the problem, at least they should if I
understood them correctly. But they have been delayed again and I think
it will need 5+ years till they will be part of the standard.

There should be IMHO something like boost is for the C++ standards
library, a fast track standard for the C++ language, which takes the
risk of changes and if the features are stable, the could be taken over
by the "stable" C++ standard. I know that GCC has taken over somewhat
this part, to see the stability of new features. But unfortunately this
doesn't help me that much, since other compilers don't support this
experimental features.
Schobi
Andre


Jun 28 '08 #101
Daniel James wrote:
In article news:<uI******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP02.phx.gbl>, Andre Kaufmann
wrote:
I had it half in mind to repeat your tests and try to see where the C++
versions were taking their time ... I obviously can't do that very
meaningfully if I can't know that I'm using the same tools.
You are using one of the same C++ compiler ;-). You can do a simple test
of your own, write integers to a file with iostreams and with sprintf
with the latest Microsoft VC/C# compiler. Sprintf should be faster, C#
fastest.
I guess at least the C# compiler must have been a Microsoft one <smile>
Yes, there are other alternatives, but their heap management is IMHO slower.
[...]
I haven't got a VC9 installation handy ... but in VC8 the iostream
implementation certainly doesn't use sprintf. That would be a very
I'm sorry to say, but it does.
Have a look at the file "...VS2005\VC\c rt\src\xlocnum" .
Search for "ld".
Set a break point on this function and then use a fstream object and
write an integer to it to see by yourself.

suboptimal implementation when you already know the type of the value
that's to be formatted. The overhead of printf is quite considerable as
the "%d" (or whatever) has to be interpreted on every call.
Yes. I think it is done for consistency reasons, to use the same
formatting.
There is certainly some overhead associated with streams, too, but it
should be less than that with the ?printf functions, except in a very
naive implementation.

You're right that localization imposes some overhead with streams -- but
not for printing integers.
The problem is only, C# (.NET) deals with localization too and the
strings are Unicode - meaning it's using 16 Bit characters.
So I'm somewhat disappointed from C++ performance (in this regard), why
do I need localization for a simple integer ?
..NET isn't (generally) faster in large projects, because the memory
footprint is still somewhat higher - IMHO.
[...]
boost::format( "%d" ) % charvar

boost::format takes the type (char) from the variable and ignores the
type implied by the %d, so you get a character rather than a number. The
only way to get the result you wanted is to cast the variable to an int
(yuk).
Didn't know that boost::format supports the printf formatting syntax
too. I used only the placeholder style: %1% %2%
[...]
I agree entirely that modules will be a better solution ... but I don't
think that means that we shouldn't also try to improve tool support for
efficient compilation of today's sourcecode. There are millions and
[...]
Yes agreed. But on the other side I once asked in the C++ forum why C++
still doesn't support >override<, while all other languages do.
I had a huge problem, with template virtual base classes and somewhere
in the object hierarchy the base function hasn't been overridden and the
compiler logically didn't complain about it. Fortunately I had VC which
has a proprietary extension supporting override for native code too to
ensure that the compiled code does what I expected it to do.

I was only told in the forum that this is a minor problem and therefore
there is no need for override to get into the next standard.
I don't use this coding style anymore, but anyways if I have to use a
class library which uses this style I can't control it's functionality
at compile time.
[on "Macros are useful too"]
>I know and agree. I use them too. But they could have been restricted
to have an effect on one single header file or must be globally
defined.

That wouldn't be compatible with C. In particular it wouldn't be
compatible with the way that C (and C++) allows you to redefine the
NDEBUG macro and include assert.h repeatedly to turn ASSERT macros on
and off throughout a compilation unit. That's a very widespread usage in
some codebases, and restricting the use of macros would break it.
Yes, but in this case and for this files I explicitly could activate the
old behavior. Or the other way round - doesn't matter.

On the other side a global definition of the assert macro and local
redefines would to the trick too.
>(doesn't mean that I don't like them).

They *could*, but they haven't been. If you were to add a
metaprogramming facility to C# it wouldn't be the C# that we know today.
OTOH if you were to design a metaprogramming facility to add to C# the
resulting language might be a bit nicer to use than C++ is now ... using
C++ templates for metaprogramming (rather than just for implementing
generics) is a bit of a hack -- but it's a very powerful hack, and the
fact that it has been used so much shows how much people want to do this
sort of thing.
They are powerful for sure, but if they are used too much the code gets
unreadable and hard to debug and maintain. By the way 'D' has IMHO a
good, way more readable implementation of meta templates directly in the
language.

E.g:

template Function(long n)
{
static if (n < 0) .....
else ......
}

I'm not suggesting that C++ is the best language imaginable, just that
it is the best language available today for solving most of the
programming problems with which I find myself faced.
I would perhaps migrate to 'D' if I could use my C++ more easily.
[...]
It's not that template couldn't be implemented by other languages, just
that -- at present -- they aren't.
As I wrote above, IMHO the implementation in 'D' is superior.
Even if they were I'm not sure that you would be able to achieve
inter-language compatibility with templates, as (in C++, at least) they
are source-code abstractions, and you need a C++ compiler to make use of
them.
To problem is templates aren't strong typed, in contrast to generics. If
they would be used for multiple languages e.g. in .NET and if the code
would be compiled at startup of the application, as it's done (normally)
in .NET, the code could fail to compile.
But it certainly could be done - just remove the compilation checking
from generics and you potentially would have it ;-).
Maybe if someone were to come up with a standard for some sort of
meta-code representation then different languages would be able to share
template representations that had been compiled (or part-compiled) down
to that meta-code. The "export" feature in C++ does something along
those lines, but AIUI the intermediate form is still largely C++.
Unfortunately "export" doesn't do what it's meant to be. It doesn't
separate translation units. But yes, I agree that templates could be
supported over language boundaries too.
>>The slides are here:
http://accu.org/content/conf2008/Ale...functional.pdf
Thanks, I'll have a look at it.

I said Andrei had been talking about a mixture of C++ and functional
programming, didn't I? Well, it's D not C++. Still interesting, though.
Hm, the headline is about the 'D' language in it's current
implementation version 2.0.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Cheers,
Andre
Jun 28 '08 #102
In article news:<uA******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP02.phx.gbl>, Andre Kaufmann
wrote:
I'm sorry to say, but it does.
Have a look at the file "...VS2005\VC\c rt\src\xlocnum" .
Search for "ld".
Set a break point on this function and then use a fstream object and
write an integer to it to see by yourself.
Took my a while to get there (I was searching for "ld" without the
quotes, which didn't help) but I see you're right.

I didn't dig deep enough before -- I got as far as the call to
_Nput_fac.put in ostream and naively assumed that that would be
implemented ... how shall I put this ... sensibly.

That explains a lot about some of those timings!
I think it is done for consistency reasons, to use the same
formatting.
Silly, really ... at the very least that call to ::sprintf_s could be
replaced by a direct call to whatever sprintf_s uses to format numbers
... no need to set up a format string and then have to run code to
interpret it!
why do I need localization for a simple integer ?
Good question ... I'm not sure whether localization covers things like
using different chars (Arabic?) for digits ...?
..NET isn't (generally) faster in large projects, because the memory
footprint is still somewhat higher - IMHO.
Yes. I've not enough .NET experience to say for certain ... but
certainly in Java projects I've noticed that the VM grabs more and more
memory as the application(s) run and the whole system gets slower and
slower -- this is apparently because garbage collection is so expensive
that the system delays it as long as possible (hoping that the app may
terminate before collection is actually needed). Memory management needs
very careful attention on server systems that have to have long uptimes
-- more so than C++ systems where memory issues are better understood
and RAII makes most aspects of its management very easy.
Didn't know that boost::format supports the printf formatting syntax
too. I used only the placeholder style: %1% %2%
It uses (something approximating) the Open Group printf syntax -- which
includes the placeholder formats.
To problem is templates aren't strong typed, in contrast to generics.
That both is and isn't true. The whole point of templates is that they
can be instantiated with arbitrary arguments (so long as that
instantiation is meaningful) but I agree that that does erode
type-safety. The answer may lie in concepts.

[on templates in other languages]
But it certainly could be done - just remove the compilation checking
from generics and you potentially would have it ;-).
I note the smiley ... there is of course much more to it than that!
Unfortunately "export" doesn't do what it's meant to be. It doesn't
separate translation units.
I don't think that's been shown conclusively. When Daveed Vandevoorde
implemented export in the EDG compiler he changed his opinion on the
usefulness of the feature ... unfortunately most people (I might say,
cynically, most of those who don't want to spend time and money
implementing the feature) still adhere to the notion that export would
not offer much advantage.

I think modules will offer more advantage, but it's not clear that
export really is as bad as most pundits seem to be saying.
But yes, I agree that templates could be supported over language
boundaries too.
That's not quite what I said ... though I do think that if two languages
had template mechanisms with identical semantics then it would be
possible to design a template intermediate format that both could be
used by compilers for both languages and which would allow
cross-labguage template support.

Notice that all-important "with identical semantics", though. In
practice I suspect it ain't gonna happen!

Cheers,
Daniel.


Jun 28 '08 #103
In article news:<ue******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP05.phx.gbl>, Hendrik Schober
wrote:
Daniel James wrote:
Certainly the current Visual C++ (Dinkumware) runtime doesn't seem
to use sprintf.

That would have been a pleasant surprise. But outputting
an 'int' using '<<' certainly lands you in 'sprintf()'. :(
Yeah, sorry, I boobed. Andre Kauffman has pointed out elsethread that I
didn't dig deep enough into the Dinkumware code to get to the
::sprintf_s call.

That's rather disappointing ... num_put::do_put knows that what it's
printing is an int, so it passes a format string to sprintf_s and gets
it to decode that to determine something its caller already knew. Why
can't do_put directly call whatever sprintf_s calls to process ints?

Maybe the efficiency gain from doing that would be trivial, but from
where I sit it looks like the code just makes work for itself.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Jun 28 '08 #104
Daniel James wrote:
In article news:<uA******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP02.phx.gbl>, Andre Kaufmann
wrote:

Took my a while to get there (I was searching for "ld" without the
quotes, which didn't help) but I see you're right.
Sorry, my fault - single quotes have been misleading.
[...]
>why do I need localization for a simple integer ?

Good question ... I'm not sure whether localization covers things like
using different chars (Arabic?) for digits ...?
I don't know for sure - I only know that Romans have written them
differently. I assume that all other languages use the same digits - if
I'm not totally wrong.
>
I don't think that's been shown conclusively. When Daveed Vandevoorde
implemented export in the EDG compiler he changed his opinion on the
usefulness of the feature ... unfortunately most people (I might say,
cynically, most of those who don't want to spend time and money
implementing the feature) still adhere to the notion that export would
not offer much advantage.
I too don't think export isn't worth the time (2 man years of coding).
It would be better to put the time into modules instead.
I think modules will offer more advantage, but it's not clear that
export really is as bad as most pundits seem to be saying.
Perhaps not bad, but it doesn't offer more than modules - so IMHO there
is no need to implement both - (assuming that the code base of STL and
boost must be changed either - for export support or for modules).
Cheers,
Daniel.
Cheers,
Andre
Jun 28 '08 #105
Anyone that thinks an operating system would be written in C# is seriously
in cloud cuckoo land.

Most operating systems I guess still have a lot of C code. But suspect some
parts being re-written in C++.

There are a ton of reasons why C++ is more flexible and powerful than C#.
Same reasons that C++ is more flexible and powerful than Java.

If you wanted to write a general purpose program with a small footprint,
with good performance then C++ is a great choice.


"RFOG" <no@mail.comwro te in message
news:83******** *************** ***********@mic rosoft.com...
"Arne Vajhøj" <ar**@vajhoej.d kescribió en el mensaje de noticias
news:48******** *************** @news.sunsite.d k...
RFOG wrote:
Then, Alvin, next Windows will be done in C#?
Next OS from MS could very well be done in C#.
We have a phrase: "confía en Dios y no corras", that will be translated as
"be confident with God and don't run".

Of course, C# can deal with LDT, GDT, vector interrupts, rings, direct
hardware access and of course microprocessors executes MSIL directly(*).
But don't hold your breath until it hits the streets.

:-)

Arne

(*) Please, read as a irony.
--
Microsoft Visual C++ MVP
=============== =========
Mi blog sobre programación: http://geeks.ms/blogs/rfog
Momentos Leves: http://momentosleves.blogspot.com/
Cosas mías: http://rfog.blogsome.com/
Libros, ciencia ficción y programación
=============== =============== ==========
Cualquier problema sencillo se puede convertir en insoluble si se celebran
suficientes reuniones para discutirlo.
-- Regla de Mitchell.

Jun 28 '08 #106
In article news:<#G******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP06.phx.gbl>, Andre
Kaufmann wrote:
Sorry, my fault - single quotes have been misleading.
No worries. I got there in the end <smile>

I once confused someone by using [ and ] to represent the limits of
the search box (e.g. search for ["ld"]) ... you can't win!
I'm not sure whether localization covers things like
using different chars (Arabic?) for digits ...?

I don't know for sure - I only know that Romans have written them
differently. I assume that all other languages use the same digits
- if I'm not totally wrong.
I don't think you quite understand ...

The Romans used an entirely different system for writing numeric
quantities anyway. In Arabic, numbers are written in base 10 using 10
different digit symbols, but they use different symbols from ours
(and, just to be confusing, their symbol for '5', looks a bit like our
'0').

See Unicode code points U+0660 to U+0669.

But, yes, I can imagine locales (or a locales-like system) supporting
conversion to and from Roman numeral representations too (though as
the Romans had no representation for zero it might be tricky). I can
never remember just what locales do and don't support, beyond the
everyday stuff.
I too don't think export isn't worth the time (2 man years of
coding).
Does that double-negative mean you DO think it IS worth the time? I'm
guessing not, but I can't be sure.

That 2 man years figure that gets bandied about comes, I think, from
Daveed's account of the time it took him. He's a seriously smart guy
so it might take other implementors a little longer ... BUT that time,
AIUI, includes the time taken to implement two-phase lookup which he
found was needed to support export. I think two-phase lookup is going
to have to be done anyway ... so the 2-man-year figure is misleading.
It would be better to put the time into modules instead.
It would be better to do BOTH. Modules don't solve all the same
problems as export ... and export is in the standard TODAY -- all it
needs is acceptance and implementation -- we could have it next year
if there was a will. Modules won't be in any sort of standard before
2012 at the earliest.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Jun 29 '08 #107
Daniel James wrote:
In article news:<#G******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP06.phx.gbl>, Andre
Kaufmann wrote:
>I too don't think export isn't worth the time (2 man years of
coding).

Does that double-negative mean you DO think it IS worth the time?
I'm guessing not, but I can't be sure.

That 2 man years figure that gets bandied about comes, I think, from
Daveed's account of the time it took him. He's a seriously smart guy
so it might take other implementors a little longer ... BUT that
time, AIUI, includes the time taken to implement two-phase lookup
which he found was needed to support export. I think two-phase
lookup is going to have to be done anyway ... so the 2-man-year
figure is misleading.
I could imagine that a company with 78000 employees could actually
afford a 2 man year project, if they really wanted to. .-)

Saying that implementing this language feature is too expensive, while
simultaneously designing several other entierly new languages, doesn't
really maximize your credibility.
Bo Persson
Jun 29 '08 #108
Daniel James wrote:
[...]
I don't think you quite understand ...

The Romans used an entirely different system for writing numeric
quantities anyway. In Arabic, numbers are written in base 10 using 10
different digit symbols, but they use different symbols from ours
(and, just to be confusing, their symbol for '5', looks a bit like our
'0').
Hm, we have to translate our applications in Arabic too, but I didn't
recognize different numbers, however I don't view our applications in
Arabic that often, since I'm not involved that much in GUI applications.
I think you mean the East-Arabic numbers.

But anyways since they are base 10 too isn't it just done with either
using a different font or changing an offset for the base number,
depending on the locale settings.
I mean - it shouldn't have an negative impact effect on the performance,
since the algorithm is basically the same.
See Unicode code points U+0660 to U+0669.

[...]
>I too don't think export isn't worth the time (2 man years of
coding).

Does that double-negative mean you DO think it IS worth the time? I'm
guessing not, but I can't be sure.
Upps - sorry typo. Should read "I do not think it is...."
That 2 man years figure that gets bandied about comes, I think, from
Daveed's account of the time it took him. He's a seriously smart guy
so it might take other implementors a little longer ... BUT that time,
AIUI, includes the time taken to implement two-phase lookup which he
found was needed to support export. I think two-phase lookup is going
to have to be done anyway ... so the 2-man-year figure is misleading.
>It would be better to put the time into modules instead.

It would be better to do BOTH. Modules don't solve all the same
problems as export ... and export is in the standard TODAY -- all it
I wonder what export solves, that modules don't ?
needs is acceptance and implementation -- we could have it next year
if there was a will. Modules won't be in any sort of standard before
2012 at the earliest.
[...]
Sadly I have to agree.

Andre
Jun 29 '08 #109
Bo Persson wrote:
Daniel James wrote:
>In article news:<#G******* *******@TK2MSFT NGP06.phx.gbl>, Andre
Kaufmann wrote:

[...]
Saying that implementing this language feature is too expensive, while
simultaneously designing several other entierly new languages, doesn't
really maximize your credibility.
Then why do only the EDG based commercial compilers support export ?
Because all want to loose their credibility ?
Bo Persson
Andre

Jun 29 '08 #110

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by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

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